Compare/Contrast: Strange New Worlds vs. the Rest of Trek

[Chicago Redshirt]

I thought it would be worthwhile to have a thread for all discussion of how SNW compares to the rest of Trek that's not tied to any given episode.

Concerned that SNW isn't following canon broadly? Or happy that the characters are different from their TOS counterparts? Or just want to talk about how sensibilities between the shows turn out?

Hopefully this will serve as a hub for those sorts of discussions!

 

[RachelKM]

Thanks for starting this thread.

[marinw]

Thanks @Chicago Redshirt. In my mind TOS/TAS/VOY/TNG and DS9 make up the "Core" Canon, all the New Trek Including Enterprise is extrapolation from that original source material. YMMV. Of all the New Treks, my favourite is Lower Decks because although it is crammed with references and memberberries there is also some fresh material. Also, the late 24thC is the era of the Trek Universe I would most like to visit.

Edited July 17, 2023 by marinw

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Thanks @Chicago Redshirt. In my mind TOS/TAS/VOY/TNG and DS9 make up the "Core" Canon, all the New Trek Including Enterprise is extrapolation from that original source material. YMMV. Of all the New Treks, my favourite is Lower Decks because although it is crammed with references and memberberries there is also some fresh material. Also, the late 24thC is the era of the Trek Universe I would most like to visit.

I think there's a certain arbitrariness in what people consider canon or not.

For myself, I tend to side with the folks who don't believe the TAS stories are canon even though it involved the original actors and many of the same writers.

I am taking no questions at this time. :)

[QuantumMechanic]

My issue, canon-wise, is that SNW makes the TOS versions of its characters look like incompetent fools.

Like no one recognizing T'Pring in "Amok Time" or knowing Spock's relationship to her.  No one showing much of a reaction when they're told Kirk is fighting a Gorn (you know, this brutal race that the Federation is terrified of less than 10 years before "Arena"). No one knowing who Khan is in "Space Seed" until they look him up.  And so on.  It's either non-Prime, or they all get mindwiped just before Kirk takes over, or they're incompetent idiots.

I can live with stuff like Spock and Chapel knocking boots at the end of "Charades".  He was still rattled from the whole de/re-Vulcanization process and the act itself doesn't contradict anything seen in TOS.

[Chicago Redshirt]

19 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

My issue, canon-wise, is that SNW makes the TOS versions of its characters look like incompetent fools.

Like no one recognizing T'Pring in "Amok Time" or knowing Spock's relationship to her.  No one showing much of a reaction when they're told Kirk is fighting a Gorn (you know, this brutal race that the Federation is terrified of less than 10 years before "Arena"). No one knowing who Khan is in "Space Seed" until they look him up.  And so on.  It's either non-Prime, or they all get mindwiped just before Kirk takes over, or they're incompetent idiots.

I can live with stuff like Spock and Chapel knocking boots at the end of "Charades".  He was still rattled from the whole de/re-Vulcanization process and the act itself doesn't contradict anything seen in TOS.

I hear you and think that there's definitely some unforced errors in making the prequel.

That said, not much in Amok Time out and out contradicts what we've seen thus far. Should one have to go through mental gymnastics to reconcile them? Not so much, but it is what it is.

For my money, the change in Nurse Chapel/Spock is hardest to rationalize. It doesn't make sense that a more demure Nurse Chapel is trying the fastest route to a Vulcan's heart through plomeek soup in Amok Time, when uninhibited Nurse Chapel in SNW has locked lips and done the deed with him already. But maybe that's just how Nurse Chapel responded after their breakup or however you resolve it.

In Amok Time, Uhura says something like, "Mr. Spock, she's lovely? Who is she?" when T'Pring first comes on the scene. That is hard to reconcile when T'Pring has been aboard Enterprise at least twice as of Charades, and possibly will be again in the future. But no one says that Uhura's memory is perfect, and I don't know if we have had a scene where SNW T'Pring and Uhura are in the same scene.  (I was going to say that there was a built-in excuse for Uhura not having a recollection, because NOMAD wiped her mind in The Changeling, but it looks like that episode happened after Amok Time at least according to episode order).

Kirk and McCoy obviously aren't on board Enterprise generally for SNW, and Spock is weird and super-private about his personal life in TOS. He basically conceals from his best friend in Kirk that his estranged dad is one of the diplomats the Enterprise is scheduled to ferry in Journey to Babel. And again, to buy into Amok TIme, we have to buy that pretty much no one in Starfleet knew about Vulcans experiencing Pon Farr. 

Taking Space Seed on its face, only McGivers seemingly recognizes Khan on sight. And then it's only after research that the rest of the main crew figures out who they have, and then suddenly they're all conversant about Khan. That strikes me as weird. Like if someone found literal Napoleon from suspended animation, people would not go from "Who's this mysterious guy" to "I kinda always thought Napoleon was cool." Anyway, I can reconcile the notion that "Noonien-Singh" is an infamous name but that the TOS crew does not make the connection between "Khan" and "Khan Noonien-Singh" until they have done more research. 

I don't love the update of the Gorn, nor that they have apparently been widely known to Starfleet prior to Arena. I don't like that the literal Enterprise encountered several Gorn ships before Arena, and that the behavior of the Gorn is markedly different than the one Gorn we saw in Arena. But we'll see if TPTB can work to reconcile where we are with where Arena is.

[Prevailing Wind]

I never watched TAS; cartoons didn't interest me, as those characters can do REALLY weird stuff that break the laws of physics, like running off a cliff and not falling until they look down. I don't want to see Bones running through a wall, leaving a McCoy shaped hole.

So I don't know if it's canon or not, but the idea that all these shows are like the Bible - the same story told from different POVs - is intriguing to me.  Sometimes you get the birth in Bethlehem, sometimes you get crucifixion, but not necessarily in the same story. Sometimes Chapel has the hots for Spock and acts on it, and sometimes, the storyteller doesn't know that part, and sees her demurely suffering unrequited lust.  It's all the same overall story, just different storytellers.

[tv-talk]

Although I liked the last episode well enough, I think that having Spock actually be 100% human for a period of time pretty much destroys much of what TOS Spock went thru in terms of struggles with his human emotions etc. The Spock we see in TOS, ie the real Spock, absolutely had never been 100% human and the idea he was pretty much destroys all of his "curious humans" type comments and quips he made in TOS. That said, I get that SNW basically had to dip into the conflicted Spock well and mine it. And because Peck is better than anyone else on the show other than Mount, it made the series better. 

Definitely not a fan of pushing Khan and the Eugenics issues forward so far, makes Space Seed seem pretty absurd as does portraying Khan as a genocidal maniac when in fact he was a smooth operator who could match Kirk/Spock et al on every level including charisma. However what could they have done? It's a testament to the brilliance of Trek that here in 2023 there is STILL a new series being made and no one in 1966 imagined that all these decades later the story would still be going strong. If they were to remake "Space 1999" today obviously they'd have to call it something else!

I am very interested in how they will portray young Kirk (if they do more with that) and sincerely hope they stay true to real Kirk rather than try and make him something else. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I never watched TAS; cartoons didn't interest me, as those characters can do REALLY weird stuff that break the laws of physics, like running off a cliff and not falling until they look down. I don't want to see Bones running through a wall, leaving a McCoy shaped hole.

So I don't know if it's canon or not, but the idea that all these shows are like the Bible - the same story told from different POVs - is intriguing to me.  Sometimes you get the birth in Bethlehem, sometimes you get crucifixion, but not necessarily in the same story. Sometimes Chapel has the hots for Spock and acts on it, and sometimes, the storyteller doesn't know that part, and sees her demurely suffering unrequited lust.  It's all the same overall story, just different storytellers.

I think an issue that comes up is that too many people treat TOS like some people treat the Bible: that it is an inerrant, completely truthful and consistent text, when any fair and plain reading would show it is not.

The other day someone quoted the notion "Vulcans don't lie" on another board I'm on. Well, TOS's primary example o a Vulcan , Mr. Spock, demonstrably lies quite a bit. Off the top of my head, pretending to be a human whose ears got caught in a rice-picker incident, claiming to be a trillium merchant, using the "Vulcan Death Grip" on Kirk, claiming someone has an insect on them before he nerve-pinched them, pretending that he had authorization to take Pike to Talos IV, pretending to be human again in STIV, lying to Starfleet in STVI. 

I think if fans accepted the notion that as cool and inventive and visionary as the TOS writers were, they were limited by their times, in multiple senses of the word. They could not envision women being equal partners in Starfleet in the future. They had to churn through 26+ shows a year, so they didn't have time to always make things consistent or to look pretty. 

The SNW people have a lot of advantages over them, but a lot of disadvantages too. I think that if they were to take a hidden TOS-era script and transpose it for this show, there would be a lot of fans who would see the holes that exist in many TOS scripts and not be as charitable as they are to actual TOS. 

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The other day someone quoted the notion "Vulcans don't lie" on another board I'm on. Well, TOS's primary example o a Vulcan , Mr. Spock, demonstrably lies quite a bit. Off the top of my head, pretending to be a human whose ears got caught in a rice-picker incident, claiming to be a trillium merchant, using the "Vulcan Death Grip" on Kirk, claiming someone has an insect on them before he nerve-pinched them, pretending that he had authorization to take Pike to Talos IV, pretending to be human again in STIV, lying to Starfleet in STVI. 

Not to mention "The Enterprise Incident" where he did nothing but lie!

[baldryanr]

Simple explanation - any Vulcan who claims Vulcans never lie was lying.  They just like to use other terms (i.e. like Spock "exaggerating") or come up with convenient excuses.

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think if fans accepted the notion that as cool and inventive and visionary as the TOS writers were, they were limited by their times, in multiple senses of the word. They could not envision women being equal partners in Starfleet in the future. They had to churn through 26+ shows a year, so they didn't have time to always make things consistent or to look pretty. 

You mean like how Rand's main purpose was to give Kirk someone to hold in his manly arms during a crisis?  Even though yeoman are still around Pike doesn't seem to have a personal one anymore.

[MaryMitch]

I watched Star Trek when it originally aired; I consider myself a fan (especially of DS9).  And I don't care about deviations from the original series. As long as the stories and characters  are interesting - and "Strange New Worlds" meets my criteria - I will watch and enjoy.

Specifically, I love what they've done with Chapel - she's kick ass and I care about her character, unlike Chapel in TOS.

[Prevailing Wind]

I have a question about the holodeck. I'm watching TNG & Picard's riding a horse on the holodeck. Data comes in to talk to him.  If Data had said, "End Program," would Picard have fallen on his tushie when the horse disappeared?

I really should stop watching this and watch Charades a second time.

[Chicago Redshirt]

So in the episode thread for Charades, a couple people had raised the notion that SNW seemingly allows more informality/disrespect among its crew than TOS or older series did. And that's something I would be interested in talking about more.

What are some of the examples where SNW is more lackadaisical with protocol? And is it just because TOS pretty much gave no one much in the way of lines beyond the Big Three and Scotty? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I have a question about the holodeck. I'm watching TNG & Picard's riding a horse on the holodeck. Data comes in to talk to him.  If Data had said, "End Program," would Picard have fallen on his tushie when the horse disappeared?

I really should stop watching this and watch Charades a second time.

We'd just be guessing but I would assume that yes, everything on the holodeck would probably vanish when such a command were given.

It might make sense that there would be the equivalent of an "Are you sure? Ending the program now might result in injury" dialogue box/question from the computer when the computer can see some sort of danger.

Various episodes refer to safety protocols/safeguards on the holodeck and talked about them being unexpectedly off, but they AFAIK have never established how they work, when they kick in, etc. For instance, O'Brien has injured himself while holo-kayaking. Presumably, someone could more seriously injure themselves or even drown. But is there something the computer does to try to make such activities safer or to step in to address inherent dangers such as drowning? Falling from horse height probably would not kill the average person, but if someone was in a holodeck mountain climbing program and someone said "End program" while they were high up could if the cliff face suddenly just disappeared.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:31 PM, tv-talk said:

Although I liked the last episode well enough, I think that having Spock actually be 100% human for a period of time pretty much destroys much of what TOS Spock went thru in terms of struggles with his human emotions etc. The Spock we see in TOS, ie the real Spock, absolutely had never been 100% human and the idea he was pretty much destroys all of his "curious humans" type comments and quips he made in TOS. That said, I get that SNW basically had to dip into the conflicted Spock well and mine it. And because Peck is better than anyone else on the show other than Mount, it made the series better. 

Definitely not a fan of pushing Khan and the Eugenics issues forward so far, makes Space Seed seem pretty absurd as does portraying Khan as a genocidal maniac when in fact he was a smooth operator who could match Kirk/Spock et al on every level including charisma. However what could they have done? It's a testament to the brilliance of Trek that here in 2023 there is STILL a new series being made and no one in 1966 imagined that all these decades later the story would still be going strong. If they were to remake "Space 1999" today obviously they'd have to call it something else!

I am very interested in how they will portray young Kirk (if they do more with that) and sincerely hope they stay true to real Kirk rather than try and make him something else. 

I think saying that the Spock from TOS had never been 100 percent human ever because he made comments about not understanding or blasting humans isn't fair. It's kind of like saying "Well Kirk had never been split in two halves because if he had, he wouldn't have reacted in such-and-such a way in this episode." One can be wrong that the experience would/should have had an impact on the character.

The fact is again on its own terms, TOS Spock should have understood humans better than he claims to. He has a human mother, and had at least 11 years of service with Pike (according to The Cage/Menagerie) plus whatever Starfleet service he had prior to Pike, plus whatever service he had post-Pike including with Kirk before TOS begins. It's not like humans were new to him.

Also, the fact is that TOS characters simply do not reflect any of their previous experiences from episodes because that's not how TV writing was done then. We don't generally hear about anything that has happened in a previous episode of TOS in a subsequent episode of the show, with the minor exception of "I, Mudd" briefly references how Harry Mudd got out of his previous predicament from the end of "Mudd's Women." We don't have Kirk reminiscing about Edith Keeler or have Spock talk with his parents in "Journey to Babel" about how he just got suckered into a fight to the death and broke off his engagement a little bit earlier in "Amok Time."

[RachelKM]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

What are some of the examples where SNW is more lackadaisical with protocol? And is it just because TOS pretty much gave no one much in the way of lines beyond the Big Three and Scotty? 

I am by no means an expert. (As I've said before, I like TOS; but I'm not devoted to it.) But after last week's discussions, I decided to watch a few TOS episodes. The very first (aired) episode, The Man Trap, Uhura steps down from her station and walks over to Spock who in the command chair while Kirk is on mission. She starts a conversation with him and lightly chastises him for his impersonal conversation. She asks why he doesn't "tell [her she's] an attractive young lady" or describe what it's like on Vulcan under a full moon. Spock replies that Vulcan has no moon. She sardonically replies "I'm not surprised Mr. Spock." (Yes I just reviewed the scene for that recap).

To me, that was a pretty informal exchange between a lieutenant and a commander, particularly a commander in temporary command of the ship. But, then again, season 1 has a lot of moments which are later contradicted.  For that matter, if memory serves, the show as a whole wasn't overly concerned with continuity.

I feel like the TOS cast movies still had a camaraderie feel that was not terribly hierarchical. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I watch those too. 

It seems reasonable to me that on a ship where the crew are on years long missions without anyone but each other for real company and emotional bonding, a sense of family would naturally develop. Hell, even  pirates went home to families at intervals. If that's a fanwank, I'm good with it.

[marinw]

41 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

"tell [her she's] an attractive young lady" or describe what it's like on Vulcan under a full moon. Spock replies that Vulcan has no moon. She sardonically replies "I'm not surprised Mr. Spock."

I love that scene! Ditto for anytime Spock played his Vulcan Harp Thing and Uhura sang. I wonder if we will get something like that on SNW. 

TNG had a "Family" atmosphere as well. Picard was remote due to his personality but his crew had no problem coming to him with all sorts of issues, like that time Riker was struggling with Worf's request to help him die in "Ethics". Picard was a sort of father figure whether he wanted to be or not.

Edited July 20, 2023 by marinw

[marinw]

I find I enjoy watching reruns of TOS/TNG/VOY and Lower Decks. I will occasionally watch a bit of a DS9 when it's on. I have NO desire to go back and rewatch Discovery, SNW or Picard. Enterprise usually bores me to tears. 

What Trek shows do you enjoy rewatching? Does the passage of time make a difference?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

I find I enjoy watching reruns of TOS/TNG/VOY and Lower Decks. I will occasionally watch a bit of a DS9 when it's on. I have NO desire to go back and rewatch Discovery, SNW or Picard. Enterprise usually bores me to tears. 

What Trek shows do you enjoy rewatching? Does the passage of time make a difference?

I have done 2 full rewatches of TOS-VOY (once when I got the various series on DVD, and once just because on streaming). I did a 3rd full rewatch of TNG, and am about halfway through my 3rd full rewatch of DS9. (I needed to steel myself up to watch The Visitor). I watched ENT as it originally aired, but haven't gotten around to a full rewatch and don't intend to any time soon. I have watched all the streaming shows, and toyed with the notion of a full Discovery rewatch but probably won't. I've probably watched most of Lower Decks twice. I don't think I watched all of Short Treks.

Sometimes, I'm in the mood for a particular episode, or the general TOS approach, or TNG or what have you. 

SNW has prompted me to rewatch a couple TOS episodes -- Space Seed, Balance of Terror and The Menagerie. I don't remember if I specifically rewatched Amok Time yet because of SNW. Anyway, Space Seed and Balance of Terror strike me as holding up extremely well. The Menagerie not quite as much.

[Prevailing Wind]

I have Enterprise on DVD, but I haven't watched it in years. PlutoTV has two ST channels - one streams TNG & TOS and the other, DS9 & Voyager. I've watched them all multiple times.  Right now, the "Empok Nor" episode of DS9 is playing on my TV as I play on the internet.  I've recently re-watched ALL the movies in order.

I'm enjoying SNW, hated Picard, couldn't stand Janeway but liked the other characters...but DS9 remains my favorite.

[QuantumMechanic]

I loved DS9.  It was my second favorite behind TOS.  SNW  is currently 3rd but may well move to #2 if it can keep things up.

I can't really do rewatches.  Part of me wants to rewatch DS9, but I just cannot summon the energy (or time) to watch years of 26+ episode seasons.

Edited July 21, 2023 by QuantumMechanic
because Primetimer doesn't do Markdown formatting, more's the pity

[jah1986]

I love DS9, it remains my favorite, last rewatch I did included my mom and she really enjoyed seasons 1-6, I'll never get over Ezri Dax. I think my current second is Lower Decks, it's just so much fun. I don't purposely rewatch TNG, it's just always on and I might watch it as I know all those episodes by heart. Only seen a few episodes of TOS, but saw all the movies. My least favorite was probably Enterprise, until Discover showed up and took home that prize.

[RachelKM]

TNG is my favorite. I don't re-watch whole seasons. But I sometimes go back and watch 2 or 3 episodes at a time from a specific season.  I do this with Voy, DS9, and TOS too, but less often. 

Of the new series, SNW and Lower Decks are my favorites.

Unlike most here, I really like Discovery and have since it started. As for Picard, nostalgia carried me through S1-2 (especially 2).  But S3 was really fun in its own right. 

[Affogato]

22 hours ago, marinw said:

I find I enjoy watching reruns of TOS/TNG/VOY and Lower Decks. I will occasionally watch a bit of a DS9 when it's on. I have NO desire to go back and rewatch Discovery, SNW or Picard. Enterprise usually bores me to tears. 

What Trek shows do you enjoy rewatching? Does the passage of time make a difference?

 TNG, Voyager and Enterprise I've watched, but I don't have the personal connection I have with TOS, nor do I think they are as good as DS9. If I had to pick one of the first three to rewatch, it would be Voyager, which I might like better if I watched it again.

  I will rewatch Discovery and I suspect I will like it more on a rewatch, although I like it a lot better when it went into the future. I like Burnham and I like what they were going for with Burnham and with some of the rest of the characters. Unlike Kirk and Pike's ships it isn't a patriarchy, and I appreciate that.

I like Prodigy and Lower Decks a great deal.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Affogato

[tv-talk]

Just now, Affogato said:

I like Prodigy and Lower Decks a great deal.

Which would you recommend in terms of watching first? It looks like the next SNW ep is Lower Decks based but I've never seen it, wondering if I should watch a slew of them before next week...but just from the trailers, Prodigy looks more interesting to me whereas Lower Decks appears comedic/silly

[Affogato]

Just now, tv-talk said:

Which would you recommend in terms of watching first? It looks like the next SNW ep is Lower Decks based but I've never seen it, wondering if I should watch a slew of them before next week...but just from the trailers, Prodigy looks more interesting to me whereas Lower Decks appears comedic/silly

There is character development in Lower Decks and a lot of it is about the relationships, so there actually is some advantage to starting at the beginning, in my opinion. there are a lot of recurring characters and story lines, so you start to miss some things, too. But, that said, you can probably drop in anywhere and enjoy it. Lower Decks makes a lot of Meta star trek references, too.

for some reason Prodigy has been cancelled, so what is available ends mid story. I hope it gets finished and picked up by Nickelodeon. I liked it, but it is definitely a continuing story with a lot of new characters, not really episodic.

[RachelKM]

On 7/21/2023 at 1:43 PM, tv-talk said:

Which would you recommend in terms of watching first? It looks like the next SNW ep is Lower Decks based but I've never seen it, wondering if I should watch a slew of them before next week...but just from the trailers, Prodigy looks more interesting to me whereas Lower Decks appears comedic/silly

I haven't watched all of S3 of Lower Decks yet (I somehow managed to fail to notice it was out and I haven't had time). But based on the first two seasons, I wouldn't think it would be necessary to watch the whole series, by any means.  It's episodic.

I think only Boimler and Mariner are involved in the crossover and you can get a pretty good feel for them in a handful of episodes.  As Affogato said, there is relationship building between the characters particularly season over season. But the show is pretty episodic making it easy to skip around. 

 

ETA: I am ludicrously excited for next week's episode.  If anyone wants to watch a clip, there's one here. 

If it's not already there, I'm gonna post this in the media thread too. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by RachelKM

[marinw]

I never connected with Prodigy. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t good, it just wasn’t for me.

[starri]

Quote

Can you give me examples where DS9 and Voyager contradicted previously established canon regarding the eugenics wars?

Voyager visited Los Angeles in 1996, which would have been either towards the end, or immediately after, the timeline established by TOS.  

[Affogato]

On 7/21/2023 at 5:33 PM, marinw said:

I never connected with Prodigy. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t good, it just wasn’t for me.

I struggled with the Nickelodeon animation at first but it ended up having a compelling long arc. The young beings had such a need to find something good in the universe that they were going to make the Federation live up to its ideals. 

[tv-talk]

On 7/21/2023 at 5:09 PM, RachelKM said:

But based on the first two seasons, I wouldn't think it would be necessary to watch the whole series, by any mans.  It's episodic.

Thank you! I did skip around and watch a bunch of episodes. It's a bit on the nose in some ways but a good series that's generally funny while certainly being very Trek. 

[baldryanr]

2 hours ago, starri said:

Voyager visited Los Angeles in 1996, which would have been either towards the end, or immediately after, the timeline established by TOS.  

In TOS Spock explicitly states that the mid-90s are the era of the last of humanity's world wars (which Bones then labels the Eugenics wars).  Is he supposed to have forgotten the massive nuclear war established in First Contact that decimated the planet 50 years later, or was he really stretching?

[Chicago Redshirt]

A poster said that the episode Tomorrow & Tomorrow & Tomorrow was possibly among the worst ever Trek episodes.

There are some truly wretched episodes in Trek history, and with all due respect, I don't think anything in SNW has come close to sheer badness to the worst of most of the other series, namely:

TOS: Spock's Brain

TNG: Shades of Gray, Up the Long Ladder (space Irish)

DS9: Profit and Lace

VOY: Threshold, Fair Haven/Spirit Folk

ENT: A Night In Sickbay, These Are the Voyages

I'm not sure if I could single out one or two Discovery or Picard episodes as far and away bad. I would say that they tend to be more medium. None actively, aggressively bad, but none standout good either. 

I'm also not sure what the "worst" SNW episode might be. But I'm pretty sure whatever it is, it's better than the stinkers above.

[marinw]

A Couple of TNG Stinkers:

Code of Honor

Imaginary Friend

Edited July 24, 2023 by marinw

[tv-talk]

13 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm also not sure what the "worst" SNW episode might be. But I'm pretty sure whatever it is, it's better than the stinkers above.

That's great you have your opinion and it's different from mine, good for you. I also think Discovery in general is basically unwatchable as was Picard 1-2, though you are welcome to your opinion.

Spocks Brain is 100x better than the wanna-be buddy cop movie schlock that was the Tomorrow ep of SNW. I mean a high speed car chase? That's not even a sci-fi show on some level.

[marinw]

3 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Spocks Brain is 100x better

That episode does have the immortal line "Brain? What is brain?"

[tv-talk]

8 minutes ago, marinw said:

A Couple of TNG Stinkers:

Generally I am not a fan of holodeck based episodes at all, though I did like that by asking the computer to create a character that could defeat Data rather than Holmes, they mistakenly created super Moriarty. 

[marinw]

17 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Generally I am not a fan of holodeck based episodes at all

TNG invented to Holodeck Fakeout, the equivalent of "It was all just a dream!"

Edited July 24, 2023 by marinw

[paigow]

TNG had 7 seasons with a lot of stinkers...

SNW seasons are 50% shorter with most episodes crap

[baldryanr]

TOS had plenty of episodes they would have put in the holodeck if they had come up with the idea back then.  The planet of Chicago gangsters, Space Romans, Space Nazis, etc. 

TNG had a poor start and a poor finish.  They're lucky shows were given a longer leash back then AND social media wasn't around, because the vitriol would have overwhelmed it before the show had a chance to find its footing.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

TNG had 7 seasons with a lot of stinkers...

SNW seasons are 50% shorter with most episodes crap

People's mileage will vary. I love TNG and acknowledge a bunch of its episodes were mediocre. But I would say few were absolute stinkers. Even something like Code of Honor, which even without the benefit of time, seems pretty overtly racist, I kind of have a guilty attachment to.

But I don't think any episodes of SNW have descended into "Shades of Gray" territory or even the bad episodes with Lwaxana Troi or Alexander, let alone "The High Cost of Living."

[marinw]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But I don't think any episodes of SNW have descended into "Shades of Gray" territory or even the bad episodes with Lwaxana Troi or Alexander, let alone "The High Cost of Living."

I blocked those two from my memory.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Generally I am not a fan of holodeck based episodes at all, though I did like that by asking the computer to create a character that could defeat Data rather than Holmes, they mistakenly created super Moriarty. 

Lower Decks does good holodeck shows so far. Badgey made hallmark Christmas ornament...

https://www.hallmark.com/ornaments/keepsake-ornaments/star-trek-lower-decks-badgey-ornaments-set-of-2-1999QXI7027.html

[Jodithgrace]

TOS made its debut when I was in HS. Believe it or not, my family had ONE television, and my parents pretty much controlled it. They had no interest in Star Trek, so we didn’t watch it. I think I saw an episode or 2 at Friday night parties.
 

I only discovered Star Trek during TNG. I didn’t enjoy old episodes of TOS when I came upon them, because I found the special effects and acting to be cheesy compared to TNG. I only got to know the TOS characters through the movies which I did enjoy. 

My favorite Trek series is DS9, which I have rewatched in recent memory. 
 

I enjoy SNW because I have no expectations nor comparisons with TOS. I also enjoyed DIS for the same reason. Spock had a sister no one had ever heard of? Fine with me. I did have an issue with those crazy looking Klingons, though.  Lol 

I just love the concept behind Star Trek…a future world with equality between races and sexes (more or less) where people work together to make a better, uh, universe. 

 

[Prevailing Wind]

To me, the worst TNG episode is that one with Troi floating in green & black surroundings, calling out, "Where are you? I have something to tell you..."

VOY: The two-part holodeck Nazi thing. In fact, any episode of any show with Nazis gets a low rating from me.

TOS: Besides Spock's Brain, the one where the kids chanting brings out that evil green dude is pretty bad. The Clint Howard one is silly. But the one that always boggles me is the one with Adonis who has no nipples.

DS9: Any episode with Lwaxana.

Two of my favorite TNG episodes are the one where Picard lives out a whole life in 25 minutes & learns to play the flute and "Darmok."  I just love Darmok so much, I've decided if I get a pair of cats again, after Stella crosses the bridge, they will be named Darmok and Jalad and the cat tree will be called Tanagra.

[paulvdb]

I never got into TOS, but of the Trek shows that I did watch there is only one episode that was so bad that I never finished it. That episode was Sub Rosa (the one with Beverly Crusher and the ghost).

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Two of my favorite TNG episodes are the one where Picard lives out a whole life in 25 minutes & learns to play the flute and "Darmok."

That's a great episode but also raises all sorts of questions about just how Picard processed those memories.  Aside from being able to play the flute he was the exact same person even though a lifetime of memories should have fundamentally changed him.  They did something similar with O'Brien when he experienced 20 years of prison (memories that were explicitly stated to be permanent) and yet after almost commuting suicide was back to his usual self for all subsequent episodes.

[paigow]

The arc of Worf v Duras followed by Fake!Tasha and Gowron was well executed. Discovery & SNW can barely keep their own continuity much less incorporate canon.

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

The arc of Worf v Duras followed by Fake!Tasha and Gowron was well executed. Discovery & SNW can barely keep their own continuity much less incorporate canon.

I chalk some or much of that up to the nature of TV now, streaming with far less episodes per season and time in-between seasons.

That said, I do wish they went for more story arc. Canon though? There's basically no such thing at this point, not sure if they are even bothering.