S04.E09: Church and State

[dargosmydaddy]

12 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I feel thick but can someone explain to me how Logan and Ewan had a baby sister in America when their parents were in England and they’d been sent away for safety? 

Ewan kind of rambled, but I thought he said something about "we were all there by then" before the part about the sister, so presumably the parents came to America, too, after the war? Ewan said he and Logan were 4 and 5 when they were sent over during the war, and I would think Logan would most likely be in the 8-10 range, if not older, when he went to boarding school. 

[poeticlicensed]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

12 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

feel thick but can someone explain to me how Logan and Ewan had a baby sister in America when their parents were in England and they’d been sent away for safety? 

Expand  

I've been wondering that too!

 

I suspect its one of 2 things. Either Rose was the child of the crazy uncle and aunt and he and Ewan considered her a sister OR when Rose was born she was brought over. Since it was years later I assume the war was over and people could travel again 

[Jax626]

One thing I still can't figure out is why the brothers are relying on a future President blocking the Waystar/GoJo sale when the recent public admission of inflated subscriber numbers by GoJo would have killed the deal.

They yada-yada'd their way through it in this episode, saying the release had gone unnoticed but if one of the world's biggest tech companies announced their user numbers were hugely over-stated their share price would be routed. It's nonsense to think the US election cluster-f would cause the news to slip under the radar.

They have previously explained that the GoJo purchase of Waystar was in large part being paid for in GoJo shares, and so if their share price dropped 10/20/30%, which is what would actually happen, GoJo would not be able to proceed with the purchase. Even if they could, the Waystar Board should and would be very concerned about their shareholders being paid out in GoJo shares, as there's no way of knowing whether the recent admission is the tip of the iceberg - meaning whatever they get in GoJo shares may drop in value in the future when the next disaster hits GoJo.

They seemed to be hinting at this in the election party episode, when Kendall spoke to Frank about GoJo's value dropping once the inflated subscriber numbers were announced and that Waystar could then purchase GoJo rather than vice versa - but in the 2 episodes since then it's back to being about Gov't intervention.

Anyone else have other thoughts?

[DobbsFox]

According to the DVR schedule, tomorrow's finale is going to be 90 minutes. A feature-length ending. Lots can happen - I can't wait to see how they wrap all this up!

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, Jax626 said:

One thing I still can't figure out is why the brothers are relying on a future President blocking the Waystar/GoJo sale when the recent public admission of inflated subscriber numbers by GoJo would have killed the deal.

I think Jessie Armstrong doesn't care about real business details. It was all busy work to move the plot. I never bother with it. Whereas I do find the Menken plotline much more vivid and upsetting. Roman caused a riot. Or street protests. Tom said Baltimore was burning too. 

So it was kind of cool to see Roman literally stepped on by the people he stirred up with his "good night of television". That said, he had to work for that moment! Walk away from security, ignore the cops, jump a barrier and get in someone's face! The world is designed to keep him so safe.

Edited May 28, 2023 by jeansheridan

[Dianaofthehunt]

Kendall used the fake, Madison Avenue word “vim” in his eulogy. That alone disqualifies him.

I once upbraided (heh) my hair stylist for describing hair as “touchable.” 
“Please! That’s a fake advertising word!” 
I may have made a bit of a scene…

[Broderbits]

13 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Kendall used the fake, Madison Avenue word “vim” in his eulogy.

I don't understand, "vim" is a real word.

[Dianaofthehunt]

Omg…

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vim

well, it ought not to be. Harummph…

Hey, I haven’t embarrassed myself as badly as Roman did at the funeral 🤪

 

 

 

[jeansheridan]

I rewatched again. I had forgotten the moment when Frank asks Roman if he is okay. Frank kind of depresses me. He seems like a good man. He probably IS a good man in general. But he enabled Logan. Maybe he didn't know Logan hit Roman, but he knew he was cruel. I guess the money was good. 

I also saw Gil (Eric Boransomething) in the audience and a person with a shock of white hair behind him I think is a real writer or journalist. 

Finally it is interesting Caroline married a man not disimilar to Tom. Peter is eager, awkward, and terribly subservient.

 

1 hour ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

once upbraided (heh) my hair stylist for describing hair as “touchable.” 
“Please! That’s a fake advertising word!” 
I may have made a bit of a scene…

I hate the word "agendize" 

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:53 AM, poeticlicensed said:

I was pondering which child is more damaged. Connor, who watched his mom be hauled away to the looney bin and then cast aside when Logan married Caroline. Its clear that Connor suffered at the very least verbal and emotional abuse. Thank goodness for Willa, she just might save him. 

Or Kendall who was clearly the screwed up golden boy who used drugs to fill a void, wants to be just like dad but isn't a killer. 

Shiv who like Kendall wants love from a father who is incapable of giving it and can't have a functioning relationship without screwing it up. 

Or poor Roman, the baby, who it seems was the object of the most abuse by both his dad and his siblings, who clearly never saw a loving relationship modeled to them. Roman can't have a relationship or have sex (masturbation notwithstanding) and can't even bear to be touched.

In the trauma sweepstakes, I don't know how to rank any of these against thinking you gave your little sister polio and killed her.

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:53 AM, Penman61 said:

If Greg has the crown when the music stops, this show will have jumped the shark as badly as any show ever has.

I would have agreed as recently as a couple episodes ago, but now that we now Mattson wants a toady-puppet as CEO, who is more right for the role than Greg? (Tom is the only competition.)

Edited May 30, 2023 by Milburn Stone

[lucindabelle]

On 5/28/2023 at 6:39 PM, Dianaofthehunt said:

Omg…

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vim

well, it ought not to be. Harummph…

Hey, I haven’t embarrassed myself as badly as Roman did at the funeral 🤪

 

 

 

It’s an old word. Vim and verve is a 1950s phrase.

[paramitch]

This was a rollercoaster. Yet again, I'm pulled between total revulsion for 90% of the people before me onscreen and pity and empathy for their weaknesses and sufferings.

I thought it was painfully obvious here that Roman would crash and burn once he actually ascended to give that speech. Fantastic job as always by Kieran Culkin -- the way he manages to show us this poisonous awful guy and yet I still care about and pity him because the abandoned and abused little boy is so visibly close to the surface.

And oh, man, he's instantly the object of ridicule by EVERYONE. Openly! I mean, Mencken greets him by calling him "Tiny Tears!" So freaking cold, man. Then Karl and Frank are openly laughing at the video of Roman's tears -- just again, so cold. At least Gerri was visibly uncomfortable with them laughing at his grief.

One thing I haven't seen anyone address is how weirdly sexual Kendall's eulogy for Logan was, and how it did seem like a few people were noticing it and finding it humorous (I think we saw Mencken and Mattson both giving a quiet 'ew' grin there). I mean, all the "indomitable font of life" and "he made life happen," and the "gushing" and "monumental" comments -- it was all very connected to sex and childbirth to me, which was very strange and noticeable. And, I'm quite sure, deliberate by Armstrong.

I found Shiv's eulogy very sad and poignant. Her comment, “When he let you in, when the sun shone, it was warm. It was really warm in the light," reminded me so much of a line in one of my favorite films, The Talented Mr. Ripley, in which Gwyneth Paltrow talks to Tom about how wonderful it is to have her boyfriend Jude Law's attention... until you lose it, and it's "very cold."

Although I think Shiv has zero chance to come out on top here -- the look on Mencken's face when he said, "I thought you hated me," which is where she needed to respond, "Of course not, blah blah blah" and instead just said she "respects their audience." Which was not the same thing. You could see his eyes go cold. Shiv wants this job for some stupid reason, but she just isn't willing to quite kill her soul to do it. 

Personally, I'm honestly hoping she gets out completely, grabs Tom, and they manage to go off and find an island (or maybe just go to L.A.) and get away from all the idiocy. I feel like as we saw again here -- since Tom and Shiv are the only ones who consistently show tenderness for each other (even now, after the George & Martha meltdown) -- that there is still this remote chance they could just disconnect from the whole circus, take their payouts, and go raise their kid with the chance at some kind of humanity.

Which of course will not happen. But -- sigh.

On 5/21/2023 at 8:04 PM, jeansheridan said:

Also I know he is terrible but mocking a person for having sincere feelings at a funeral is low. I am referring to the video. I know he is reaping what he has sown but the people mocking him are no better.

I was honestly really happy Gerri responded with some actual humanity about Roman to Karl there, like, "Don't do that."

On 5/21/2023 at 8:18 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Honestly, considering how much he hates him and everything he stood for, Ewan was actually kind of tame by his standards.  He took the time to help explain why Logan partially became the man he was due to his past and even admitted to loving him somewhat before he proceeded to rightfully tear into him and highlight all of the awfulness he has caused and will not doubt have a rippling effect in society going forward.  Well done!  Sure, it didn't work with this particular crowd, but I'm sure others will agree with you!

Kendall offering Colin a job is totally just him trying to make sure he doesn't mention what really happened to the dead waiter.

I loved Ewan's speech, and appreciated that he judged himself as well as Logan, while also expressing real and complex feelings. Cromwell is always so good.

I hated Kendall offering Colin the job -- in that moment especially. It was so gross to me that he was so blatant ("I hear you're in therapy" -- i.e., "I'm scared of what you might say."). I really hope Colin nopes out. And never lets Kendall forget what he knows.

On 5/21/2023 at 9:24 PM, buttersister said:

"Can we get him out of there?" Holy shit, that hit home and I'll bet with a lot of people. Pre-grieving = can't imagine which stupid bestseller that came from--or maybe it's a Damaged Roman original.

Lukas will never deliver for Shiv. Menken won't deliver for the Roys. Rava's not coming back. Ugh, Greg will land on his feet (a willing puppet for Lukas or somebody). Run, Jess! After everyone sells her out, perhaps Shiv will end up sitting with Tom when the baby stirs. And the thought that maybe, in the end, she can be a better parent than either of hers or her sibs and that might make for the best revenge.

Yeah, the "Can we get him out of there?" killed me. Roman really does seem to have just two settings -- asshole adult and wounded infant. No filter or in between.

I agree with you on Shiv. I'm kind of hoping she escapes too.

On 5/22/2023 at 7:52 AM, Penman61 said:

I'm fine describing Logan Roy as a bad man, full stop. If the best one can say about him is that he was a once-in-a-decade capitalist success, then that says more about capitalism than it does about Logan Roy. He beat his kids (at least Roman) when they were small. As adults, he manipulated them and pitted them against each other for his own gain, and occasionally, enjoyment. HE HIT HIS GRANDCHILD. Once a person dies, any possibility of redemption dies with them. Logan was awful, and is now offal.

Beautifully put. I read an interview with Brian Cox where he talked about how he did not think Logan was monstrous at all, and my jaw dropped. To me this entire show has been about nurture vs. nature -- about what this abusive monstrous man did to mold his children. They are, all of them, exactly what he created them to be. 

It is why I was moved and exasperated when he told them all in that final conversation he had with them -- "I love you. But you aren't serious people." I mean, it is HIS FAULT that they are who they are. Every single one of them.

On 5/22/2023 at 8:36 AM, iMonrey said:

It's hard for me to wrap my head around Roman's emotional breakdown and visible grief over a father who was such an asshole to all his children. It's very Battered Wife syndrome to me. The psychology behind it is more than I want to think about.

Speaking personally, and objectively, yes, it is very, very common for those abused to still love and seek love from the person who abused them. In many cases, if it was a parent who was the abuser of a child, that old "kicked dog" analogy is a powerful one because the child will keep on going back, and back, and back, begging for those little scraps of love or acknowledgement in between all the blows and shouted insults. 

For me the most powerful images of this aspect in the show are Roman actually downplaying his father knocking out his tooth (season 2?) even while his mouth is bloody, and again just a few episodes back, when a grieving Roman is listening to his father's insults over and over again -- just to hear his voice.

I mean, it is incredibly ugly, sad, and very accurate to human nature, unfortunately. I definitely echo those who wish Roman would get therapy. I mean, like, years. Decades. Roman needs All The Therapy.

On 5/22/2023 at 9:45 AM, ahpny said:

I didn’t understand that. Marcia has never been shown to be warm and loving. What’s in it for her to show a modicum of human kindness now? She’s consistently been shown to be a cold, vindictive and dispassionately focused on her own interests. That is, a good fit for the Roys.

I thought Marcia was very believable here. She has always shown herself to be both smart, merciless, yet also genuinely compassionate. Sure, she was cruel to Kerry in the immediate aftermath, as it was basically her first opportunity to confront the woman who had taken her place.

But here I think she allowed herself to realize that she was punching down -- Kerry isn't her enemy. And Kerry was actually one of the few people there who truly cared about Logan, and I did buy that there was a kinship of sorts there. I think Kerry's tears genuinely touched Marcia.

I also really liked Marcia's moment with Shiv. Again, she is in a moment of loss that is bleak and similar to Shiv's -- she loved Logan, who was an absolutely terrible, often cruel man who hurt her (and Shiv, and the kids). So she was honest to Shiv, and gave her a moment of warmth and empathy. I was very glad for that moment, and I liked what it said about Marcia.

On 5/22/2023 at 10:12 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv and the champagne, I specifically looked at her first drink and she put her lips on the class, tipped it up and let the champagne touch her mouth, no actual drink. I didn’t watch the second one that closely. Such a “Fuck You” to Tom.

I thought Shiv was more taunting the possibility of drinking while pregnant than doing it. She definitely faked the first sip, and the second was really pretty small and not repeated. I don't actually think she'd push it farther than that -- and the irony is, they quickly moved past it when he broke down to her.

On 5/22/2023 at 10:49 AM, maddie965 said:

And yet, a minute after that, she shows concern for Tom's well-being and even suggests that he rests at their old apartment. I swear, I don't understand those two. Maybe in another universe Shiv might be able to love Tom. In this one, she seems to have very confusing feelings of hatred and affection for him. It's quite fascinating to me.

I think Tom and Shiv genuinely do love each other and also understand each other. I think there is a universe in which they could still work things out. I mean, I don't think they WILL, but they could. Their edges fit -- at his heart, Tom is a pleaser, and he's always visibly happy pleasing Shiv. He's just also occasionally a snaky sneaky bumbling doofus. I never know which Tom we will get from scene to scene.

On 5/22/2023 at 11:32 AM, Penman61 said:

I am not defending a single important character on this show BUT I will say that my own experience with unexpected grief is that a lot of it is not directly about the person you lost—it’s a response to a direct, unavoidable encounter with your own mortality. So at any particular moment in grief, your sorrow might be about YOU and not about how you felt about the dearly departed.

And that, my friends, is how you see people genuinely crying (like Kerry?) at the funeral of someone they were indifferent to or even despised. The tears are for yourself; the funeral is just the occasion.

I agree with this but I also think it's even more complex -- any death is a loss, especially of someone close. A hole in your life, a hole in the world. I have cried over relatives who died that I genuinely hated because I still pitied that they were gone and realized I would never get the apologies or kindnesses I had wanted from them. 

I also actually do think Kerry cared for Logan. I really do. I mean, it's pathetic and sad, but she was always shown to be so present, so prepared, so there for him -- yeah, I think she cared.

On 5/22/2023 at 11:42 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

He has at times a masochistic streak and a sadistic streak, and right now he seems to be hating himself for his utter failure to position himself as a reminder of Logan. He was indeed the exact opposite of Logan. Logan was seemingly incapable of feeling or expressing emotion on the level that Roman displayed. And of all the people at the funeral outside his siblings, no one had sympathy for what Roman was feeling. He cozied up to a fascist who openly mocked him for having those emotions. And even the people he tried to get to beat him up, mostly ignored him and some even helped him up.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. Roman is a exterior sadist and an interior masochist who is happiest when someone is beating him down. 

And of course when someone in the marchers actually took pity on him and tried to be kind and help him up, Roman immediately shakes them off and snarls, "Don't touch me!" Because he is just a black hole of self-loathing and garbage.

On 5/22/2023 at 12:54 PM, Absurda said:

Or, for the damaged, they're crying because they realize they will never have the relationship or hear the words they always wanted.  No more chances, no more maybe tomorrow's.  They will never get what they wanted or needed from that person.

Oh, absolutely this! So well said. The death of someone like Logan would be a hugely emotional things for all these kids. Now they will never get closure. They will never hear him say all the things they wanted to hear him say to them -- the expressions of love and approval.

The irony for me is that the last thing he said to them -- the literal last thing -- was that he loved them (but they weren't "serious"). And it rolled right off them and they mocked him for it.

On 5/22/2023 at 2:33 PM, sistermagpie said:

I know it's realistic, but I have a hard time getting how these women apparently love the guy. Even people talking about him as a "salty dog" but "a good egg" made it hard for me to fit it to him. Seems like he's genuinely just a bully. I can't even remember him being funny. I wondered if he wasn't wealthy if they'd like him so much and sadly, maybe some of them still would. He'd just be at the bar bullying people. (Maybe this was different when he was younger at least.) But the Women Who Loved Logan's club just seem like a lot of women whose taste in men speaks badly of them.

I thought Rhea, Holly Hunter's character, gave us a glimpse into this. We saw her enjoying his wit and softer side in a few of their conversations, and that she genuinely enjoyed both his intelligence and his toughness. Combine that with his wealth and charisma, and yeah, I have no trouble believing Logan could always Get It.

But I also absolutely loved Rhea's final conversation with him -- it's one of my all-time favorite moments on "Succession," because Rhea is one of the few people who absolutely, clearly sees Logan for who he is, and she looks, thinks, and says, "Nope. It's not worth it." And leaves it all. And this is a woman who had the CEO job handed to her AND a potential place at Logan's side as Marcia's replacement! But after he lies to her face -- again -- she smartly says:

"It's kind of a superpower, isn't it? If you can lie to someone like that, to their face. I mean, I know you're lying, but I still find you very plausibly appealing." He hems and haws and she ends with "I've been thinking about that. I'm not sure it works any longer. I'm not sure I want to work for you. I'm out. I don't want to be part of this. I think it's changed. In the details. I can't see the bottom of the pool -- and I don't know if you care about anything. And that scares me."

It's a fantastic scene. I still think she's one of the few characters who absolutely understood what a shell Logan was. He cared about nothing. No one. He just wanted to win, to dominate, to crush. He was a monster. And she was smart enough to be one of the few to walk away.

On 5/23/2023 at 11:19 AM, poeticlicensed said:

Rupert Murdoch, Sumner Redstone, and old the rich old devils get married over and over. Not because they are charming 

Yep. And we did see Logan be charming on occasion (when it served him) -- I can buy it.

On 5/29/2023 at 9:09 PM, lucindabelle said:

It’s an old word. Vim and verve is a 1950s phrase.

I've heard of that -- for me, I always heard it as "vim and vigor."

Edited June 2, 2023 by paramitch
clarified one word

[jeansheridan]

58 minutes ago, paramitch said:

It's a fantastic scene. I still think she's one of the few characters who absolutely understood what a shell Logan was. He cared about nothing. No one. He just wanted to win, to dominate, to crush.

Lovely observation and proof that yes, people can make different choices and move on. Gerri and Frank both of whom I enjoy a lot, chose to stay. 

And we see Jess finally walk away too. So nice Armstrong gave her that moment. 

[paramitch]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

Lovely observation and proof that yes, people can make different choices and move on. Gerri and Frank both of whom I enjoy a lot, chose to stay. 

And we see Jess finally walk away too. So nice Armstrong gave her that moment. 

Thanks, and back at you!

I love both Gerri and Frank, and think it would be very interesting to see how they end up when all is said and done (I'll finally watch the finale today).

I'd love for both of them to do well. Because both are -- funnily enough -- not just two of the smartest and most experienced people in this group of barracudas, but also the two who do seem to have some vestiges of humanity and kindness.

I also adore both actors -- I've loved Peter Friedman and J. Smith-Cameron as character actors for decades now, and am always happy to see them working. 

(It's also been a blast to see David Rasche and Fisher Stevens do so well with their supporting dramatic roles here when I usually associate them with lighter, more comedic fare -- although I got a chuckle at the revelation from Kieran Culkin in the latest HR roundtable that Fisher cannot memorize a thing and is constantly reading his lines from his phone or note cards.)