S03.E09: Part Nine - Vox

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

A devastating revelation about Jack alters the course of Picard's life forever - and uncovers a truth that threatens every soul in the Federation. The final battle begins as Picard and his crew race to save the galaxy from annihilation.

Dropping Thursday, April 13, 2023.

[fatewemake]

The visuals and dialogue in the last 5 minutes of this episode must have had fan service, nostalgia and heartfelt emotions in mind.  And for me it worked... every bit of it <grabs handkerchief>.  Yes, there are plenty of problems with the plot, but I'm really looking forward to the Enterprise 1701-D and her original crew kicking some major butt one last time.

[Peace 47]

Hallelujah, they found an actual light switch on one of these ships.  The Enterprise-D never lets me down.  I won’t think too hard about how the 7 of them are supposed to run a ship that was meant for over a thousand crew members.  (Flashes of Beverly’s disappearing universe episode!) 

The pacing and tone was absolutely bonkers in this ep.  We go from:   classic TNG surrealist dream/ mind sequence, to them being ready to institutionalize Jack without much further thought about a plan, to Jack escaping without much further thought about a plan, to complete Borg takeover of the entire fleet (that escalated quickly!), to major character death, to weird nostalgia trip for the OG 7 when everyone around them is literally dying, possibly even their own children.

I mean, I love the Enterprise-D (favorite ship), but they should have put visiting the old bridge and full cast reunion earlier in the season so it wouldn’t feel like they literally had to step over Shaw’s dead body to mainline nostalgia feels.  I really can’t get over how these goobers continually have no plan.  They went into Frontier Day intending to … do what exactly? 
 

[dovegrey]

Yep…

I’m actually really happy this was all foreshadowed essentially from Episode 1, and then with Ro avoiding the transporters later in the season; it makes for a more or less cohesive season in retrospect. I’ve felt nuts the whole time thinking it was Borg/Locutus/DNA hijinks, while everything at face value screamed DS9.  Not sure how it all wraps up in one episode, though; maybe Picard will give a really good speech (while Seven goes Queen again). 😅

[NeenerNeener]

But what about friendly Borg Queen Agnes Juratti from last season? 

We've had Seven of Nine & Tuvok from Voyager, why don't we get to see Janeway or Chakotay?

Yeah, I don't see how they can wrap this up in one more episode. And if this was where they were heading then most of the Changeling episodes in the middle were unnecessary filler that should have been devoted to battling the Borg at the end.

Edited April 13, 2023 by NeenerNeener

[starri]

I wish the IMAX screening in NYC wasn't sold out.  

I totally cried.  Even if I had expected it (which, by the time they were escaping I was), it still hit me so hard in the feels.  And people had been complaining that they replaced Majel Barrett as the computer voice even though they'd digitized enough to continue to use in perpetuity.  But they were just saving it for this moment.

I am sorry to lose Shaw, but I'd been expecting his dying words to be "Seven of Nine" for a while.  Not unexpected.  Still pretty sad.

Terry Matalas has more than earned his Legacy series.  Make it so.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

Hallelujah, they found an actual light switch on one of these ships.  The Enterprise-D never lets me down.  I won’t think too hard about how the 7 of them are supposed to run a ship that was meant for over a thousand crew members.  (Flashes of Beverly’s disappearing universe episode!) 

The same way five people ran the original 1701 when they stole it - pray that nothing breaks because then they're screwed. 

So I'm assuming Shelby joined the cavalcade of returning TNG guests who have been killed?  I mean, she took two shots to the chest right before the transmission cut off.

[rtms77]

Wow looks like Shelby had attained the top command of Starfleet, only for the Borg to ruin it, 😂. The story of her life.

Umm 7 and Raffi had all the time to jump into the shuttle, what the heck are they doing now? 
So the Borg have been infecting every Starfleet personnel since the initial invasion? Doesn’t that mean Voyager's crew is toast including Janeway. She’s younger than Picard.  She had to have just graduated. Thanks to nepotism (her father) , she moved higher up the ranks faster. 

For that matter doesn’t this mean Raffi should be infected! And again why can’t the Borg take over 7 of 9? She should be the easiest to take over. They could have made her a deadly sleeper as well, a 1,2 punch. So many plot holes with this take over.

I really hope Jack is killed off, he’s now useless to anyone. The whole changling plot was a huge red herring. 
 

[starri]

15 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

So the Borg have been infecting every Starfleet personnel since the initial invasion?

The inference, I think was that with the latest round of upgrades, the Changelings had sneaked the genetic code into the transporters.  So this is maybe over the course of the last few years, not going back to "Best of Both Worlds" times.

Also, Janeway was likely on the al Batani when Wolf 359 happened, so she'd have been too old.

[greekmom]

31 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

Wow looks like Shelby had attained the top command of Starfleet, only for the Borg to ruin it, 😂. The story of her life.

Umm 7 and Raffi had all the time to jump into the shuttle, what the heck are they doing now? 
So the Borg have been infecting every Starfleet personnel since the initial invasion? Doesn’t that mean Voyager's crew is toast including Janeway. She’s younger than Picard.  She had to have just graduated. Thanks to nepotism (her father) , she moved higher up the ranks faster. 
 

I thought they hand waived it by saying it only affects the younger people up to age 25. So I guess anyone 26 and over would not be affected? All those years which they are doing this, did the dormant DNA thing actually disappear on your 26th birthday? What if you are 25 and 1/2???  Wonder if Kestra was affected and she's borging out somewhere... where ever they writers forgot about her.

Of course kiss ass Shelby is an admiral. But have to say that she's aged pretty well. Too bad they killed her.  LOL on the USS Pulaski.  Way to pander to the fans on the least favourite doctor in the series.
Oh for fucks sake. Seriously??? The Borg. Really? The Borg used the Changelings to infiltrate Starfleet?? (Is this Star Trek's version of 'It was Agatha all Along')?  I don't see it. And the cringe on this storyline was very difficult to even HATE watch.  
Damn.  Captain Douchebag didn't make it this time against the Borg.  He didn't even get a chance to profess his love for the beautiful Seven Anika Nine Hansen.
I guess this is why they made such a POINT to clarify Jack's age. Because you know he's not really pushing past 30. *roll of the eyes*.  

Best line: "I hope we die quickly."  Thank you Data. I hope so too.
 
In all fairness... I did fast forward a bit ... I just couldn't take the cringe of the episode. And of course they will wrap everything up nicely in 1 episode. Sure show. Sure.
 

Edited April 13, 2023 by greekmom
It was the Borg Queen all Along.

[Francie]

That was 15 minutes of content stretched out over 45. And that's actually a huge improvement over prior episodes. 

All those nostalgia buttons they were trying to push about the Enterprise-D deflated instantly with the lame, lame, lame, lame, lame "carpet" comment. I was half expecting Frakes (Terry Matalas's Riker is not Riker to me, just genial Frakes) to chime in with a brownnosing "Good one, Sir!"

Mark me, decades from now, in a world where one will look back on the '20s with an almost wistful, "Remember when every entertainment source had its own streaming service and spent gross amounts of money to hire movie stars and resurrected past entertainment successes to induce people into subscribing to their own particular channel?," some soon-to-be befuddled souls will come across Picard. And they'll look upon it with the same incredulity and disdain that youtube watchers who stumble across The Brady Bunch Variety Hour today have. They too will ask, "What the f did I just watch and was there no one in charge who could have stepped in to prevent this embarrassment?"

I think the showrunners have looted just about everything it could from TNG ("licensed looting" is what I've been calling it). There's nothing left to pilfer (err, or show I say 'burgle') to justify any further revisit. At least not by these showrunners with their "too cool for school" attitude and complete disregard for actual storytelling. 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Francie

[cambridgeguy]

13 minutes ago, greekmom said:

In all fairness... I did fast forward a bit ... I just couldn't take the cringe of the episode. And of course they will wrap everything up nicely in 1 episode. Sure show. Sure.

To paraphrase what someone once told Jack Sparrow - but you did watch.  Paramount+ is not doubt thrilled for all of the eyeballs regardless of whether they're brimming with tears of joy or rolling back into their skulls.  Being loved is better than being hated, but being hated is better than being ignored.

25 minutes ago, starri said:

The inference, I think was that with the latest round of upgrades, the Changelings had sneaked the genetic code into the transporters.  So this is maybe over the course of the last few years, not going back to "Best of Both Worlds" times.

Yeah, there's no way the Borg were working this subtle plan for 30 years.  They needed the Changelings to do the dirty work for them.

[Francie]

11 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

To paraphrase what someone once told Jack Sparrow - but you did watch.  Paramount+ is not doubt thrilled for all of the eyeballs regardless of whether they're brimming with tears of joy or rolling back into their skulls.  Being loved is better than being hated, but being hated is better than being ignored.

That's not a great long-term strategy, though. Getting eyes on a program works if you are only selling that program.  Streaming platforms rely on getting -- and keeping -- monthly and annual subscriptions. Sure, throwing tons of money at Harrison Ford (and hopefully Helen Mirren, too) and promoting the sh*t out of Patrick Stewart resurrecting Jean-Luc Picard, and then the rest of the cast for this season, might get new subscribers. But if all Paramount+ does is piss them off once they arrive, they'll leave just as quickly. The content has to be good, and stay good, to keep them. One may have to go to the effort of unsubscribing, but it's not like it's as onerous as getting out of a gym membership.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Francie

[Zaffy]

The showrunners really liked the new BSG? right?

I quite enjoyed it, although I am a bit confused about the whole Borg situation. I know the plot mainly served for the Enterprise D moments, but still I have questions. Like Picard, Raffi and 7 do not remember of what happened last season? They do no recall of Borgati anymore? And wasn't Borgati supposed to keep the Borgs..."friendly"? Whatever happened last season did not happen? Wth?
They did not show us the Queen's face, although the voice was sounding like last season's queen's. Will there be a surprise?

Seven calling Data "the robot" made me giggle.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Zaffy

[starri]

2 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

They did not show us the Queen's face, although the voice was sounding like last season's queen's. Will there be a surprise?

It was Alice Krige.

[FloatOn]

So Terry Matalas spent the week yelling that Riker and Deanna's kid was now at the Academy or an Ensign but they had to cut the scenes from the episode because it was too long or didn't fit. Yet in this episode the two of them see every person under 25 in Starfleet get assimilated and they show zero concern for their own kid, not even a hint that she could be in danger being in Starfleet now and under 25, and instead we get Deanna talking about how Jack is now her family. Just wish Matalas would admit he had no interest in that character and was only interested in their dead son and just kept it moving lol. Everything else and the doubling down in the press just makes them seem like neglectful parents and it's a bad look for me.

This show has been going down for me like a lead balloon since around 6. Everything with the TNG cast and the ship I loved to a point but everything else is a misfire.

Are Raffi and Seven ever going to get a scene between the two of them? Weird how that's another thing people loved from the first two seasons that they threw out so we could have more of Star Trek: Jack.

Edited April 13, 2023 by FloatOn

[Francie]

23 minutes ago, FloatOn said:

So Terry Matalas spent the week yelling that Riker and Deanna's kid was now at the Academy or an Ensign but they had to cut the scenes from the episode because it was too long or didn't fit. Yet in this episode the two of them see every person under 25 in Starfleet get assimilated and they show zero concern for their own kid, not even a hint that she could be in danger being in Starfleet now and under 25, and instead we get Deanna talking about how Jack is now her family. Just wish Matalas would admit he had no interest in that character and was only interested in their dead son and just kept it moving lol. Everything else and the doubling down in the press just makes them seem like neglectful parents and it's a bad look for me.

 

(Internal monologue: Gah, why am I bothering even? Ehh, just get it out of my system and then I can forget this show and move on). 

I had a similar thought regarding Geordi's attitude. Sure, we see one moment of him all wanting to go after his girls, but then he follows that up by playing coy with his "I have a better idea." That only works because it's a tease of the viewer. Internally, for the story and for the characters it makes no sense. Geordi should be as intensely focused as Liam Neesan in Taken (just, his skill set is of a different nature). There's no time to stand around for carpet jokes and wax nostalgic about whether the deck is smaller than they remembered. That crew -- the crew *I* knew would have been strategizing about how to use the Enterprise-D while in the shuttle, not all, "Gee, where's Geordi taking us? Oh, let's walk around for awhile!" The tone was way off, which has been a recurrent problem. 

Granted, I ff-ed much of this episode, too, but what I did notice was that Deanna wasn't with the rest of the crew and then  she suddenly appeared on the shuttle. There was never any sense of Will being worried about reconnecting with her. No 2-second hug upon reconnecting. Just - gah, these characters are empty vessels to the showrunners. 

And, did I miss it, or was the scene from the preview where Deanna's with Beverly and Raffi and they're pointing a phaser (and a screwdriver?) at something and Deanna wisecracks she's never been so happy to see wrinkles cut? 

Also, what was with the whole, "never get near a Betazoid again ... there's ethical conflicts" rant? Racist much, Jack? 

God, I'll be relieved when my beloved characters are released from this creative hostage situation.

[PurpleTentacle]

Well I said repeatedly this was going to be dumb and it very much was. First we dig up the changelings and now the Borg. So that we may drown in memberberries. The Changelings working with the Borg is just preposterous. I guess it could have been worse, but not much...

Also didn't the Borg make a bid for membership in the federation last season, or at least proposed an allience? I get that that wasn't the main Borg collective, but Borgati should at least be able to help, shouldn't she? Where was the discussion of that? That should have been had even before Jack fled.

And didn't Voyager kill the Borg queen once and for all? It's been forever so I don't quite remember. But I guess either way there could have been another backup. She also died in First Contact.

Also that the transporter works like they described this episode is just ludicrous and goes against everything established so far.

Remember when I said what was behind the red door could have been worse? It's hard to imagine something dumber than what happened in the rest of the episode.

The Enterprise D. A ship with proper lighting. Who would have thought that technology could advance so much in -30 years, that you don't have to sit in the dark all the time!

[dwmarch]

So now that we know what is behind the red door, what was the point of Jack again? Seems to me like this Borg plan didn't require assistance from him at all (beyond proof of concept that Borg DNA could be passed along).

And why didn't the Borg call Jack Vox Machina? Come on team, it was right there! In any case, despite calling Jack their voice, they just speak to themselves anyhow and if anyone inherited the job of Borg bingo caller, it seems to be Sidney LaForge.

I didn't like how the red door issue was handled with Deanna running way and Picard trying to lock Jack in his room. Why not be matter of fact about it? "Huh, that's weird. I see a Borg Cube, any idea what that could mean?" It would have been way more TNG-like if they had worked together on puzzling it out instead of getting hung up on "sorry kid, these are the rules". Tell me what you can do, TNG crew, not what you can't.

Sucks that Captain Shaw died because Starfleet doesn't have doors. For that matter weren't we setting up forcefields in the bare-ass hallways not too long ago? And hasn't Starfleet had that ability for a long time? Did the Changelings burn out all the forcefield emitters? I liked Shaw finally giving Seven of Nine her propers but I was also reminded of the Mirror Universe episode of Enterprise where Archer snarks at Forrest, "bridge is yoooours, Captain!"

[FloatOn]

7 minutes ago, Francie said:

(Internal monologue: Gah, why am I bothering even? Ehh, just get it out of my system and then I can forget this show and move on). 

I had a similar thought regarding Geordi's attitude. Sure, we see one moment of him all wanting to go after his girls, but then he follows that up by playing coy with his "I have a better idea." 

Granted, I ff-ed much of this episode, too, but what I did notice was that Deanna wasn't with the rest of the crew and then  she suddenly appeared on the shuttle. There was never any sense of Will being worried about reconnecting with her. No 2-second hug upon reconnecting. Just - gah, these characters are empty vessels to the showrunners. 

And, did I miss it, or was the scene from the preview where Deanna's with Beverly and Raffi and they're pointing a phaser (and a screwdriver?) at something and Deanna wisecracks she's never been so happy to see wrinkles cut? 

Geordi's reaction didn't make any sense either. I'm not saying he needed to storm the bridge but him just seeming....fine basically right after he learned both his kids got assimilated was bizarre.

Yeah, for someone who according to Matalas "plays heavily" and "is the star" of the final three episodes, Deanna going missing for a good 20 minutes there was weird. Right after she ran out on Jack, too. I agree about her and Riker, especially after how they were all over each other last episode. Did they even speak this time?

No it was there. They had no explanation on where Raffi and Deanna were for most of the episode, and then boom, they were just there waiting to board the shuttle with the other legacy cast.

Seven and Raffi staying behind on the Titan was stupid. I guess we'll see them ride into to save the day with the Enterprise in the next one, but what are they going to do with all the Borg crew members? Kill all of them except for Geordi's kids?

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

I didn't like how the red door issue was handled with Deanna running way and Picard trying to lock Jack in his room. Why not be matter of fact about it? "Huh, that's weird. I see a Borg Cube, any idea what that could mean?" It would have been way more TNG-like if they had worked together on puzzling it out instead of getting hung up on "sorry kid, these are the rules". Tell me what you can do, TNG crew, not what you can't.

Seriously. That was an oversold moment. The way they had her run off, one would have thought she just saw her dead son.

Meanwhile, my expression when the big reveal behind the door was a borg cube:

 

 

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, rtms77 said:

So the Borg have been infecting every Starfleet personnel since the initial invasion? Doesn’t that mean Voyager's crew is toast including Janeway. She’s younger than Picard.  She had to have just graduated. Thanks to nepotism (her father) , she moved higher up the ranks faster. 

They said it only works on humans under 25 and some equivalent age for all the aliens. Which is dumb, but explains why the old geezers weren't effected.

Of course it's extra dumb, because in the future people live way longer (for example Bones was 137 at the beginning of TNG), so an overwhelming amount of the crew would be over 25 and could overwhelm the assimilated with ease. But these writers don't know that, so...

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

(Is this Star Trek's version of 'It was Agatha all Along')? 

That at least had a catchy theme tune. This is just dumb.

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Best line: "I hope we die quickly."  Thank you Data. I hope so too.

That wasn't even really positive. Positive would have been "I'm sure we'll die quickly!". Data wouldn't have made a mistake like that. Can't these writers do anything right? They fail at every task and be it ever so little.

1 hour ago, Francie said:

All those nostalgia buttons they were trying to push about the Enterprise-D deflated instantly with the lame, lame, lame, lame, lame "carpet" comment.

And the obvious comment would have been about the lights, not the carpet. New Starfleet ships are one big workplace hazard. With a bunch of exposed metal and lights so dim you probably trip 20 times a day.

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

To paraphrase what someone once told Jack Sparrow - but you did watch.  Paramount+ is not doubt thrilled for all of the eyeballs regardless of whether they're brimming with tears of joy or rolling back into their skulls.  Being loved is better than being hated, but being hated is better than being ignored.

I'm certainly not paying for Paramount+. I'm subscribed to Amazon Prime anyway. What am I going to do, cancel my membership over this? I mean it is very tempting, but they also have free shipping, Prime Day, Twitch Prime and the Legend of Vox Machina, so...

57 minutes ago, FloatOn said:

So Terry Matalas spent the week yelling that Riker and Deanna's kid was now at the Academy or an Ensign but they had to cut the scenes from the episode because it was too long or didn't fit. Yet in this episode the two of them see every person under 25 in Starfleet get assimilated and they show zero concern for their own kid, not even a hint that she could be in danger being in Starfleet now and under 25, and instead we get Deanna talking about how Jack is now her family. Just wish Matalas would admit he had no interest in that character and was only interested in their dead son and just kept it moving lol. Everything else and the doubling down in the press just makes them seem like neglectful parents and it's a bad look for me.

He probably just forgot about her until people on Twitter reminded him, when the seasons started. These writers forgot about a lot of things.

18 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

And why didn't the Borg call Jack Vox Machina?

Because that would have conflicted with another Amazon Prime show? 😆

[Francie]

10 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

That wasn't even really positive. Positive would have been "I'm sure we'll die quickly!". Data wouldn't have made a mistake like that. Can't these writers do anything right? They fail at every task and be it ever so little.

THANK YOU!!!!! Gah! This show is SO filled with dumb pieces of dialogue that fail to hit the intended mark. Which makes it almost comical because the intended marks are sh*tty, at best. 

Data could have said, "At least we'll die quickly!" 

 

10 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Of course it's extra dumb, because in the future people live way longer (for example Bones was 137 at the beginning of TNG), so an overwhelming amount of the crew would be over 25 and could overwhelm the assimilated with ease. But these writers don't know that, so...

Can we just pause a moment to reflect on the fact that no one on the original Enterprise-D, other than Wesley, would have been affected? Tasha Yar and Geordi were the youngest bridge crew members, and their portrayers were 30 at the time they started filming the first episode. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Francie

[PurpleTentacle]

10 minutes ago, Francie said:

Can we just pause a moment to reflect on the fact that no one on the original Enterprise-D, other than Wesley, would have been affected? Tasha Yar and Geordi were the youngest bridge crew members, and their portrayers were 30 at the time they started filming the first episode. 

And even though the actors were 30, they likely played older. Picard was supposed to be in his 60s, even though Patrick Stewart was only in his late 40s. Because people live a lot longer in the future and so visibly age slower.

It doesn't make any sense that you have people in their early 20s as bridge crew, even by todays standards, anyway. They'd all be lower deckers with very limited access. But here we are. The joys of bad writing.

[FloatOn]

16 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

He probably just forgot about her until people on Twitter reminded him, when the seasons started. These writers forgot about a lot of things.

More like he resented that they had an alive daughter they were shown to be living for and getting joy from in the first season and instead wanted us to think they'd been sitting out in the woods alone depressed, static, and hating their life and each other because their son died eight years ago. 

For a show obsessed with legacy, you'd think they'd want to show that Riker and Troi's legacy didn't die with the son, but I guess I forgot that only sons are important in Star Trek.

[greekmom]

(Sing to It's been Agatha all along)

Who's been messing with Jack's mind?

It's been The Borg Queen all along

Who's been pulling every evil string?

It's been The Borg Queen all along.

She's cunning (ha-ha!)

So treacherous

That you haven't even noticed

And the pity is (the pity is) Pity, pity, pity, pity

It's too late for our crew to fix everything

Now that everything has gone wrong

Thanks to the Borg Queen (ha!)

Evil Borg Queen

It's been the Borg Queen all along!

Borg Queen: "And I killed Shaw too."   maniacal laughter.

Edited April 13, 2023 by greekmom
forgot to add the maniacal laughter

[PurpleTentacle]

19 minutes ago, FloatOn said:

More like he resented that they had an alive daughter they were shown to be living for and getting joy from in the first season and instead wanted us to think they'd been sitting out in the woods alone depressed, static, and hating their life and each other because their son died eight years ago. 

For a show obsessed with legacy, you'd think they'd want to show that Riker and Troi's legacy didn't die with the son, but I guess I forgot that only sons are important in Star Trek.

I wasn't joking. I genuinely think the writers forgot about her. There is no other explaination why you wouldn't even include a throwaway sentence.

13 minutes ago, greekmom said:

(Sing to It's been Agatha all along)

Who's been messing with Jack's mind?

It's been The Borg Queen all along

Who's been pulling every evil string?

It's been The Borg Queen all along.

She's cunning (ha-ha!)

So treacherous

That you haven't even noticed

And the pity is (the pity is) Pity, pity, pity, pity

It's too late for our crew to fix everything

Now that everything has gone wrong

Thanks to the Borg Queen (ha!)

Evil Borg Queen

It's been the Borg Queen all along!

Borg Queen: "And I killed Shaw too." 

Improtant to add at the end: "maniacal laughter"

-

If that was in the episode, I probably would have rated it higher. At least then I would have known that I'm not supposed to take this bullshit seriously.

[rtms77]

3 hours ago, starri said:

The inference, I think was that with the latest round of upgrades, the Changelings had sneaked the genetic code into the transporters.  So this is maybe over the course of the last few years, not going back to "Best of Both Worlds" times.

Also, Janeway was likely on the al Batani when Wolf 359 happened, so she'd have been too old.

I don’t think so. The Changlings took the JL body to weaponize it but didn’t complete it. The Borg instead used them to replace the older Starfleet personnel that couldn’t be infected. Beverly, Data and Gordie seem to say that JL carried that genetic infection from the moment the Borg got him. It wasn’t the Changlings who put his pattern code  in the transporters , it was Starfleet. The Borg were counting on that. They infected everyone and then just waited for the next 25 yrs to attack. Either Vadic found out through the experiments, or the Borg recruited her and the other test subjects. Of course all of this stinks of the Borg somehow knowing about the future or having the BEST LUCK EVER! They had to predict JL and Beverly having a kid, they had to predict the Changlings and the war etc. This is dart  throwing writing at its worse. It’s one big event after another to distract from very poor writing. 
 

Oh and Shelby I think was on the Enterprise F, since it’s the Flagship and it looks like she was head honcho of Starfleet. 

[PurpleTentacle]

11 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

I don’t think so. The Changlings took the JL body to weaponize it but didn’t complete it.

No, they completed it. They changed the transporters on all starfleet ships to implant that DNA into everybody. Which is not how the transporter works, but whatever...

Also not sure why they had to steal JL's body, when they were working with the Borg and the Borg made those DNA modifications in the first place and so could make them again, but whatever...

14 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

They infected everyone and then just waited for the next 25 yrs to attack.

They didn't wait for 25 years. They infected everyone pretty recently.

Only people who aren't 25 years old yet are effected, because neuroplasticity or some bullshit, really because the writers needed a reason for the old characters not to be effected, even though they had the same DNA implanted. But whatever...

[Francie]

19 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

Oh and Shelby I think was on the Enterprise F, since it’s the Flagship and it looks like she was head honcho of Starfleet. 

Wait, that was Shelby I was FF-ing past?

Way to bring in not one, but two, bad ass female characters* from original TNG just to kill them off. 

I hate this show with the heat of 10,000 nuns. 

 

*Like her, hate her, or (like me) love to hate her, Shelby was bad ass.

[rtms77]

10 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

No, they completed it. They changed the transporters on all starfleet ships to implant that DNA into everybody. Which is not how the transporter works, but whatever...

Also not sure why they had to steal JL's body, when they were working with the Borg and the Borg made those DNA modifications in the first place and so could make them again, but whatever...

They didn't wait for 25 years. They infected everyone pretty recently.

Only people who aren't 25 years old yet are effected, because neuroplasticity or some bullshit, really because the writers needed a reason for the old characters not to be effected, even though they had the same DNA implanted. But whatever...

I stand corrected then. Honestly it’s just a big mess with a lot of convenient future predictions from the Borg. It also still doesn’t explain why they wouldn’t go hard to take 7 back, or any other ex Borg still serving Starfleet. 7 could have been a serious threat. I mean she still has Borg parts and could feel the Borg message, yet they skip past her for everyone else? They have completely wasted the character this season after hinting for a spin off with her.

Edited April 13, 2023 by rtms77

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I'm certainly not paying for Paramount+. I'm subscribed to Amazon Prime anyway. What am I going to do, cancel my membership over this? I mean it is very tempting, but they also have free shipping, Prime Day, Twitch Prime and the Legend of Vox Machina, so...

 

Unless you are on a free trial of some sort you pay for subscribing to Paramount+ through Prime. You should be able to cancel it through Amazon under 'subscriptions'.

[PurpleTentacle]

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Unless you are on a free trial of some sort you pay for subscribing to Paramount+ through Prime. You should be able to cancel it through Amazon under 'subscriptions'.

No. Amazon Prime is the international distributer for Star Trek Picard, outside the US and Canada, and I'm in Germany. Paramount+ doesn't exist here.

Edited April 13, 2023 by PurpleTentacle

[Affogato]

13 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

No. Amazon Prime is the international distributer for Star Trek Picard and I'm in germany. Paramount+ doesn't exist here.

okay, sorry

13 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

And even though the actors were 30, they likely played older. Picard was supposed to be in his 60s, even though Patrick Stewart was only in his late 40s. Because people live a lot longer in the future and so visibly age slower.

It doesn't make any sense that you have people in their early 20s as bridge crew, even by todays standards, anyway. They'd all be lower deckers with very limited access. But here we are. The joys of bad writing.

Well, not on the flagships, Wesley excepted. Honestly there are shifts on the bridge, and very likely a lot of people in training, who get rotation on the bridge.

[PurpleTentacle]

23 minutes ago, Affogato said:

okay, sorry

No problem, easy mistake to make. I suspect most people here are from north america.

17 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Well, not on the flagships, Wesley excepted. Honestly there are shifts on the bridge, and very likely a lot of people in training, who get rotation on the bridge.

I doubt anybody under 25 gets training on the bridge, no matter what ship. I don't even think you'd be out of the academy, considering you'll live to be around a 150.

Wesley was a nepo-baby (also supposedly a genius, but I don't see it).

Edited April 13, 2023 by PurpleTentacle

[rtms77]

8 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Well, not on the flagships, Wesley excepted. Honestly there are shifts on the bridge, and very likely a lot of people in training, who get rotation on the bridge.

The -25 yrs crew, actually make up most of the ships crew, not just bridge crew. As we saw when Shaw and company were escaping, the crew were fighting each other in the lower decks. Far more younger crew than staff. The Changlings were helping in that regard by taking over the older command structure of Starfleet that would not be affected by the transporter. A 2 pronged attack. 

[Cattoy]

Transporters are one of the most crucial and delicate systems on board. Anyone can change them to  modify the genetic code of everyone who uses them.  Someone should have listened to Bones McCoy.

After facing the Borg for years, not one person raised a concern about the actual Borgification of Star Fleet? One rogue character could take control of the entire fleet. Who the hell thought this was a good idea?

When the did the galaxy start shrinking? This is like the last season of Game of Thrones where people magically travel distances overnight that used to take weeks.

I still don't care about Jack.

How could no one detect the anomalous DNA in Picard? You have transporters that reassemble people at a subatomic level. You can alter someone to appear as another species. The genetic modifications necessary to make different species' hybrids have been around since TOS. They have the ability to genetically modify humans after birth. That just doesn't make any sense that no one could detect the changes the Borg made.

Which raises the question: Why did the Borg do it? Were they expecting him to be recaptured and deBorgified? Nothing we've seen indicated the Borg thought that far in advance. Attack, assimilate, move on has always been their strategy.

"Seven of Nine" Sorry that fell flat for me. It was too obvious that he'd do it in his dying breath, like this was some galactic soap opera. Would have worked much better if he had just called her Seven during the fighting. Focus on  her reaction and move on. Then kill the bloody red shirt.

 

[rtms77]

1 minute ago, PurpleTentacle said:

No problem, easy mistake to make. I suspect most people here are from north america.

I doubt anybody under 25 gets training on the bridge, no matter what ship. Wesley was a nepo-baby (also supposedly a genius, but I don't see it).

If Lower Decks is any indication, many do if they are gunning for command or trying to get promoted. 

[Affogato]

2 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

The -25 yrs crew, actually make up most of the ships crew, not just bridge crew. As we saw when Shaw and company were escaping, the crew were fighting each other in the lower decks. Far more younger crew than staff. The Changlings were helping in that regard by taking over the older command structure of Starfleet that would not be affected by the transporter. A 2 pronged attack. 

It is of course funny that Dr McCoy was right.

[rtms77]

1 minute ago, Affogato said:

It is of course funny that Dr McCoy was right.

I just finished watching Star Trek Beyond and McCoy is in great form regarding the transporters from 100 yrs before? 😂 

[Affogato]

9 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

No problem, easy mistake to make. I suspect most people here are from north america.

I doubt anybody under 25 gets training on the bridge, no matter what ship. Wesley was a nepo-baby (also supposedly a genius, but I don't see it).

I can easily imagine that the federation academy accepts people for something like undergraduate work. They then go into various ships, applying for berths, in some field they are interested in and serve for a while. Then, if they are interested, they may find a place to do postgraduate studies in something like engineering or communications. Thing is, they have time. Everyone may want a chance to do a fly around in a ship before they settle into their research on a space station.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Affogato

[greekmom]

20 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Wesley was a nepo-baby (also supposedly a genius, but I don't see it).

Well, I have been reading WW's Still Just a Geek and I liked Wesley *in a small voice*

19 minutes ago, Cattoy said:

I still don't care about Jack.

How could no one detect the anomalous DNA in Picard? You have transporters that reassemble people at a subatomic level. You can alter someone to appear as another species. The genetic modifications necessary to make different species' hybrids have been around since TOS. They have the ability to genetically modify humans after birth. That just doesn't make any sense that no one could detect the changes the Borg made.

Which raises the question: Why did the Borg do it? Were they expecting him to be recaptured and deBorgified? Nothing we've seen indicated the Borg thought that far in advance. Attack, assimilate, move on has always been their strategy.

I don't care about Jack either.

If this DNA was in Picard and Geordi did say it's part of the Borg's DNA they could have just taken Icheb's dead body, or all those Borgs from that recovered Borg ship from season 1.

My bf pointed out that all 3 seasons have dealt with some sort of Borg threat.  Guess writers have nothing else to go on.

[Chicago Redshirt]

So I have questions that I'm fairly sure there are no reasonable answers to and the show will not even attempt to answer in the episode left to it:

Wasn't there a detente between the Borg and the Federation at the end of last season of Picard? What happened to it? Or Queen Agnes and her drive for a new collective that was based on only voluntary membership in the Collective?

Come to think of it, wasn't there some mutual threat that got the Borg to call for Picard specifically that season? What happened to it?

OK, accepting that they basically wiped the slate clean of last season to try to lure old Next Gen fans back, this episode tells us that 35 years ago, the Borg transmitted additional organic stuff into Picard that went undetected by Beverly/Starfleet and which was lying in Jack since basically birth, with the Borg Queen calling to him and calling for him to find her. Why wasn't the BQ far more direct, far earlier? At any time, the BQ could have drawn Jack to someplace they could have met. 

If it was the case that Jack was a happy mutation of some sort that was only recently discovered, I could see the Borg only acting now. But the undetectable organic transmitter apparently is something that they had been doing for three decades. So why hasn't there been a Borg with Jack's ability to mind read and mind control  unconnected people at a distance until now?

Other than "because it's cool," why would the Borg employ the rogue Changelings or the rogue Changelings decide to work for the Borg? How did they even find each other in the first place to make their alliance?

What happened to all the remaining rogue Changelings? How many were there?

How about all the associates of JLP/the Next Gen Crew/Seven that the Changelings kidnapped or otherwise compromised?

Why would the Borg not set something up so that those over 25 would also get assimilated the old-school way? Or some better plan than "Kill all non-Borg?"

On most ships, wouldn't those 25 and under be far outnumbered by those 26 and over? So wouldn't most ships have a fighting chance even with the new Borg having the element of surprise?

How come the new-school Borg aren't able to build forcefields that would make phasers useless like old-school Borg?

[Affogato]

4 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Well, I have been reading WW's Still Just a Geek and I liked Wesley *in a small voice*

I don't care about Jack either.

If this DNA was in Picard and Geordi did say it's part of the Borg's DNA they could have just taken Icheb's dead body, or all those Borgs from that recovered Borg ship from season 1.

My bf pointed out that all 3 seasons have dealt with some sort of Borg threat.  Guess writers have nothing else to go on.

I have seen (excepting the odd random) the show through twice, once when it came out. The Borg were not that fascinating to me and I think they could have done something without it.

Wesley was supposed to be relatable to young people, and a lot of people I've talked to have cited him as an inspiration for going into the sciences, so he seemed to work with his target audience.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, greekmom said:

If this DNA was in Picard and Geordi did say it's part of the Borg's DNA they could have just taken Icheb's dead body, or all those Borgs from that recovered Borg ship from season 1.

I can accept the notion that in order to make Locutus, the Borg Queen did something super special that she doesn't do with your average drone. So taking some random drone's body would not be a workable solution.

I could have fanwanked that there was something unexpected that happened when creating Locutus that played off some genetic anomaly of Picard's -- perhaps the syndrome that "killed" him -- that the Borg only recently discovered and needed Picard's body to figure out how to replicate. But this episode makes clear that nope, he has had these organic transmitters all along and that they changed his DNA and no one thought to compare his pre-assimilation DNA as captured by various scans, transporter logs etc. to his post-assimilation DNA (or whatever scans they did missed all these transmitters).

Also, Seven should have known it was the case that the Borg used special sauce to create Locutus since she was part of the collective at the time it occurred. 

[Affogato]

41 minutes ago, Cattoy said:

Which raises the question: Why did the Borg do it? Were they expecting him to be recaptured and deBorgified? Nothing we've seen indicated the Borg thought that far in advance. Attack, assimilate, move on has always been their strategy.

 

 

Why would they want to kill off intelligent races? It seems to me that they need new races and civilizations to assimilate to add to the borg. If they have eaten everyone they are static.

[Chit Chat]

I still love the show, but I would've been happier than a pig in mud if I never had to see another storyline that revolved around the Borg!  Ugh.   The borg queen creeps me out. 

Why wasn't the shuttle on lock-down before Jack jumped in and left the ship?  They're all standing around yelling "don't leave, Jack," but yet nobody thought to lock his ass down before he could leave?  I thought they still had control of the ship at that point.  Maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly.   I'm sure he'll pull through and save the day though.

[Cattoy]

8 minutes ago, ChitChat said:

Why wasn't the shuttle on lock-down before Jack jumped in and left the ship?  They're all standing around yelling "don't leave, Jack," but yet nobody thought to lock his ass down before he could leave?  I thought they still had control of the ship at that point.  Maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly.   I'm sure he'll pull through and save the day though.

Oh, I forgot this. Seriously. You have a guy of questionable character who can mind control others. You tell him he's about to be sent to Vulcan for a psychic lobotomy, and no one thinks that he might, oh, I don't know ... mind control people to get away?

[Chit Chat]

2 minutes ago, Cattoy said:

You have a guy of questionable character who can mind control others.

Troi had just finished telling Picard and Dr. Crusher that he's dangerous.  D'oh!

[rtms77]

31 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Also, Seven should have known it was the case that the Borg used special sauce to create Locutus since she was part of the collective at the time it occurred. 

Word! Again this season should have revolved around 7 and Picard, both being used without their knowledge. 7 should have been taken over  easily. There is no way 7 never knew about Locutus. I’m sure Starfleet studied her big time when Voyager got back. For that matter she took control of a Borg ship in season 1. This show is saying Borg are individual collectives , not one collective? Not to mention this is like the 4th or 5 th Borg Queen counting Jurati who seems to have also completely missed this whole plan of the Borg. For a connected collective, no Borg seem to talk to each other.