Lady Edith: Sex and the Single Girl

[Roseanna]

Edith chased Strallan at first because he was available and willing. And she chases him again after the war because, in her own words, "If you think I'm going to give up on someone who calls me lovely...." If we were to agree that the show has little room for subtlety and alternate interpretation (not that I do), we should take her words at face value...

 

It's not that I don't take Edith's words seriously, but I can't regard it as a good motive. Paying a woman a complement is a normal courtesy and clearly of more fatherly sort and than that of a lover and therefore not an encouragement for her to pursue him.

Now, I am not against a woman being active, but I seriously doubt that a relationship can succeed if a man isn't also active. I believe that a peson (both a man and a woman) has a right to say no  to a relationship even if loving the other on the premise that it has no chances to succeed and that decision should be respected by the one wants the relationship (unlike Talbot). 

 

Edith's development is seen in her relationship. She pursued Strallan (mainly before the war, and solely after that). Gregson pursued her which showed that she was no more  desperate to catch any man but after Matthew had discouraged him he offered her a possibility to end their relationship which she declined. Finally Bertie made the first move in the street but after that they were both active. 

 

Most of all, both relationships with Gregson and Bertie were natural and believable.   

[TheGreenKnight]

Now, I am not against a woman being active, but I seriously doubt that a relationship can succeed if a man isn't also active. I believe that a peson (both a man and a woman) has a right to say no  to a relationship even if loving the other on the premise that it has no chances to succeed and that decision should be respected by the one wants the relationship (unlike Talbot). 

Okay...? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I said. Strallan only ends the relationship after Violet and Robert's words to him. It's made even more apparent when Edith says, "We're going to be so happy," as he's telling her he can't go through with it and Violet steps in to make sure he can't reverse his decision.

 

I don't agree that Strallan was ever "fatherly" with Edith... I think that's just focusing on his age, tbh. There's nothing actually in the dialogue or onscreen that would give that impression? Edith also never says to Robert that she "adores" Strallan because Robert had already tried to put the kibosh on the wedding. She breaks down into tears and has to have her grandmother intercede to make the wedding possible. Why would she be crying if she had no feelings for Strallan?

 

And the reason Edith is pursued by Gregson rather than being the pursuer is because she resolved herself to a fate of being a spinster at the end of the episode she's jilted, since being jilted is hard to come back from. She wasn't looking for romance either time after Strallan; they just came to her. As for your post on flirtations... We'll just have to disagree. As you say, Henry and Mary flirted, but you saw no love between them, and yet the show says they did love each other.

[elle]

I have a question about Edith's daughter Marigold.   At that time, what would her future likely be?  As Edith's adopted daughter, or say, Edith marries and her husband adopts Marigold, there would be questions about her parentage, even if we know what the truth about that is.  Would that be as big of deal as it would have been in say Cora's time or Violet's?

[shipperx]

By the time Marigold comes of age it will be WWII and their whole worlds will have changed, so it's difficult to say.

[ZoloftBlob]

I often see this stated and it just simply isn't true. Robert wasn't fond of the idea of Strallan for Mary at all. He thought the guy was dull as dishwater and was perfectly open about that. He thought Strallan was too old for both Edith and Mary and I can understand why. He even questioned Cora for inviting him in the first place. It's actually a point in favor of the idea that Robert doesn't see Edith as this loser who should settle for the first person who asks.

 

In season one when Mary was in the throes of the Pamuk scandal, Robert didn't object to Mary being encouraged to see Strallan as a suitor. Yes, he questioned Cora for inviting him... and then *shut his mouth* about it and allowed it. If Robert had a problem with it, Robert had the power to stop it and Robert shut his mouth and allowed it.

 

Point- I actually consider this a point of bad writing and not Robert being a dick. But at the end of the day, Robert had no objection to either Mary or Edith marrying Strallan in season one and made no real protest over it.

[SusanSunflower]

Wasn't it actually Violet who just could not countenance the match ...  though I thought at the time the Robert rather plainly -- when it became real match and not some proposed solution to a problem -- found it squicky ... Strallen was his age, Edith was his daughter's age ... oh noes ...  It was Violet, who had succeeded in getting Robert to order Strallan to "stand down" and also objected to Stallan's age and infirmity who gave him the evil eye in the church ... I suspected that she may well have objected to such a pathetic match for her granddaughter, because it reflected on her and Robert and Downton, hell, probably even Mary .. etc. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Crs97]

We are rewatching the series.  Funny thing is that Mr CRS realized he didn’t start watching until the latter half of season one.  After he saw Edith manipulate Daisy to get the Pamuk gossip and write to the embassy, he stopped it and exclaimed, “That is why you dislike her so much!  Now I finally get it and will never defend her again.”  Now that we have gotten through this much of the Drewes/Marigold storyline, he actually joins me in muttering, ”Go to hell, Edith!” every time she comes onscreen.  It’s cathartic.

[slf]

9 hours ago, Crs97 said:

We are rewatching the series.  Funny thing is that Mr CRS realized he didn’t start watching until the latter half of season one.  After he saw Edith manipulate Daisy to get the Pamuk gossip and write to the embassy, he stopped it and exclaimed, “That is why you dislike her so much!  Now I finally get it and will never defend her again.”  Now that we have gotten through this much of the Drewes/Marigold storyline, he actually joins me in muttering, ”Go to hell, Edith!” every time she comes onscreen.  It’s cathartic.

Easily one of the worst things, if not the worst, that either she or Mary did to each other. It always bothered me that she suffered minimal consequences for that. Edith was not the poor little victim she was often made out to be on the show.

[Crs97]

For Mr CRS it was as much about how she manipulated Daisy as her treatment of Mary.  What she did to Mary was atrocious, but Mary was her equal and could theoretically get her back.  The way she treated those below her in status showed her true character IMO.  Unfortunately Fellowes kept all of that a secret so that no one confronts her ever.

[helenamonster]

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

For Mr CRS it was as much about how she manipulated Daisy as her treatment of Mary.  What she did to Mary was atrocious, but Mary was her equal and could theoretically get her back.  The way she treated those below her in status showed her true character IMO.  Unfortunately Fellowes kept all of that a secret so that no one confronts her ever.

I haven't watched season one in a while so I'd kind of forgotten how she manipulated Daisy into spilling the Pamuk beans. I'm realizing now that Daisy probably felt like her job was in jeopardy if she didn't tell Edith what she saw, which is doubly unfair because it's not like Daisy had been sticking her nose where it didn't belong in the first place; she was going about her work and just stumbled on them moving the body by accident.

In general, for all of Mary's faults, she always treated the staff with respect. She had great relationships with Anna and Carson, genuinely cared when William's mother became ill, and even in the very first episode was deeply uncomfortable going through the servants' quarters. Even though it was her house, she respected that this was their space and she shouldn't be there.

[slf]

7 hours ago, Crs97 said:

For Mr CRS it was as much about how she manipulated Daisy as her treatment of Mary.  What she did to Mary was atrocious, but Mary was her equal and could theoretically get her back.  The way she treated those below her in status showed her true character IMO.  Unfortunately Fellowes kept all of that a secret so that no one confronts her ever.

Well, the effect that would've had on the family would've been head and heels above what the show had happen. For all that everyone said Mary was Fellowes' favorite, and she was, he gave Edith a free pass repeatedly. Edith told everyone that Mary wasn't a virgin and that while she was having sex her lover died. Mary was almost totally shut out from society for the better part of a year, it damaged her prospects, and permanently gave her a reputation. In reality that would've hurt the entire family, including Sybil who never did a thing to Edith. Yet Edith never felt bad about any of that.

Edith had no real respect for the staff, or almost anyone of a lower class. The show was pretty consistent about that. Remember when Carson basically collapsed while serving dinner, accidentally getting something on Edith's dress, and they thought he was having a heart attack? Cora told Edith to go call for a doctor (or something) and Edith wailed, "but what about my dress?!" Classy, that one.

[Crs97]

On 2/19/2018 at 1:32 PM, helenamonster said:

In general, for all of Mary's faults, she always treated the staff with respect. She had great relationships with Anna and Carson, genuinely cared when William's mother became ill, and even in the very first episode was deeply uncomfortable going through the servants' quarters. Even though it was her house, she respected that this was their space and she shouldn't be there.

Yes.  This.  She also planned an outing for the children in which Marigold could visit Mrs. Drewe as a treat.  I thought she was very deferential to Mrs. Hughes and was kind to Thomas, even bringing the children to say goodbye when he took the other job.

What interactions did we see between Edith and the staff?  She was kind to Daisy when William was dying, she manipulated Daisy with the Pamuk story, and she was more worried about her dress than about Carson’s collapse.  Any others I am forgetting?

[humbleopinion]

Edith plows up Mr. Drake's tree root, drinks beer out of the bottle with him and lets him give her a kiss, much to Mrs. Drake's dismay.

Is flirting with a tenant farmer count as kindness  to the lower class?

Edith showed kindness when the injured soldiers were housed at DA.

[slf]

6 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Edith showed kindness when the injured soldiers were housed at DA.

 

7 hours ago, Crs97 said:

What interactions did we see between Edith and the staff?  She was kind to Daisy when William was dying, she manipulated Daisy with the Pamuk story, and she was more worried about her dress than about Carson’s collapse.  Any others I am forgetting?

Being kind to Daisy during William's death and looking after the soldiers are really the only times I'd say Edith bothered to show kindness to those of a lower station. I personally don't see her helping the Drake's as such because doing so was more about giving herself something to do than necessarily helping, them coupled with her macking on the husband. Unbelievably disrespectful to Mrs. Drake; Edith was similarly disrespectful to Mrs. Drewe. Edith had a problem with being sympathetic to poor people in general but women specifically. Which, to be fair, is a realistic characterization just not a very flattering one.

Edited February 22, 2018 by slf

[whateverdgaf]

It's logiccal that Edith has significantly less interactions with the staff because her storyline doesn't revolve around Downton so much as escaping from it. Unlike Mary, who wants to be the lady of the manor, Edith has no say in the running of it.

But she has shown herself to be friendly and caring. She did care for William, and that cannot be overlooked or dismissed. Watching a young man die before your eyes would be incredibly taxing, especially when surrounded by his grieving loved ones. And through it all Edith remains strong and in control. That has to be commended and is probably her defining moment when it comes to her relationship with the servants. She had the oppurtunity to help and do something important, and she did.

When it comes to the Drewes, she didn't hurt them because they were poor and of lower class, everything she did was because she wanted to be near her daughter. Thoughtless, yes. But she would have treated anyone of any class the same. And she didn't give Marigold up to the Drewes, she approached Mr Drewe and asked him to take in Marigold specifically so she could be there for her. Which Mr Drewe agreed to. And at the end of the day, it was Mr Drewe who lied to his wife and decided to refuse to explain why Edith wanted to be involved in Marigold's life. Fair enough, he did not wish to expose Edith. but Edith's explanation; of a child of a dead friend, would have sufficed. It was Mr Drewe who made the calls here, Edith didn't threaten or manipulate him. She didn't make him lie to his wife that Marigold was the child of his dead friend, instead of Edith's. If we are going to condemn Edith for hurting Mrs Drewe, then we cannot excuse Mr Drewe who used his wife. Everything went to shit, but only due to a lack of communication. Not out of any malice or dislike. 

As for the staff at Downton, she has few interactions with them post season 2. But there are several indicators of her having a good relationship with them. Small things like dancing with Thomas; both of whom seemed to be enjoing it. Wishing Alfred good luck with his cooking test. Coming over o see what was wrong with Daisy in 601. Sincerely being sorry for not recognising Gwen when she came to visit, whilst in the same episode becoming a patron for a charity that helps lower class girls make a career for themselves. When discssing who knows about Marigold, Edith notes that if Mrs Hughes knows then Mrs Patmore probably does also. This indicates she has got a goo idea about the friendships with between the staff. Minor things but all something that suggests a friendly relationship. 

In the turn, the entire staff went to her wedding to Anthony Strallan. What's interesting about this is even Mrs Patmore and Daisy went, even though they didn't go to Mary's. Possibly because after what she did for William they wanted to see her happy? Following this all the staff expressed sympathy for Edith, with Alfrd and Mrs Hughes insulting Sir Anthony and Mr Carson agreeing to it. And when she does get married to Bertie, they are all happy for her. If there was any dislike for Edith from the staff, it would have come out. And at no point did anything they did or said suggest any hostility. Nor like Mrs Hughes, for example, who is always happy to say a word or two about Mary.

 

These are minor interactions, but as I have already said Edith is simply not involved in their life as other characters because her plotline is about her finding a world away from Downton. And as the spinster daughter she has no say in the running of the estate, unlike Mary, Cora and Robert who as employera are responsible for them. After having done some serious growing up in Season 2, the interactions between Edith and the staff are friendly and suggest no dislike. When put together, all these small moments indicates a good relationship with the staff and considering that the final episode revolves around Edith GETTING EVERYTHING. Getting married to a man who adores her, being a succesful modern woman with an exciting career which she is good at, having a family who finally supports her and moving to a beautiful castle where she will be a millionaire marchioness; outranking everyone in her family, then it stand to reason we are meant to be happy for her and read all these interactions in the best light.

(Reading that last paragraph reminds me of how happy I was when Edith got her happy ending. I had been hoping for it so much, but even I couldn;t anticipate how brilliantly things would go for her.)

[slf]

4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

It's logiccal that Edith has significantly less interactions with the staff because her storyline doesn't revolve around Downton so much as escaping from it. Unlike Mary, who wants to be the lady of the manor, Edith has no say in the running of it.

I disagree that it's more logical. After all, Sybil's character arc was also about leaving Downton too.

4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

She did care for William, and that cannot be overlooked or dismissed. Watching a young man die before your eyes would be incredibly taxing, especially when surrounded by his grieving loved ones. And through it all Edith remains strong and in control. That has to be commended and is probably her defining moment when it comes to her relationship with the servants. She had the oppurtunity to help and do something important, and she did.

I agree. But I also feel that things like her wailing about her dress while Carson was collapsing can't be overlooked or dismissed either. That was huge and if Mary had done it....Jesus.

4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

When it comes to the Drewes, she didn't hurt them because they were poor and of lower class, everything she did was because she wanted to be near her daughter. Thoughtless, yes. But she would have treated anyone of any class the same. And she didn't give Marigold up to the Drewes, she approached Mr Drewe and asked him to take in Marigold specifically so she could be there for her. Which Mr Drewe agreed to. And at the end of the day, it was Mr Drewe who lied to his wife and decided to refuse to explain why Edith wanted to be involved in Marigold's life. Fair enough, he did not wish to expose Edith. but Edith's explanation; of a child of a dead friend, would have sufficed. It was Mr Drewe who made the calls here, Edith didn't threaten or manipulate him. She didn't make him lie to his wife that Marigold was the child of his dead friend, instead of Edith's. If we are going to condemn Edith for hurting Mrs Drewe, then we cannot excuse Mr Drewe who used his wife. Everything went to shit, but only due to a lack of communication. Not out of any malice or dislike. 

No comment has been made excusing Mr. Drewe since we are not discussing him*. We're discussing Edith's conduct. Nothing exists in a vacuum and that is just as true of her interactions with that family. A woman of her station taking an interest in the children of a local family might've been seen a positive thing; noblesse oblige was of course A Thing back then. But that's not what Edith was doing, as you say, she was using the Drewes to keep Marigold close by. And what Edith wanted was nuts. Don't get me wrong, it's very sad that she was in that situation but she had options. She could have simply adopted Marigold from the very beginning. Adopting an orphaned infant, while unusual for a noblewoman, is significantly less odd than adopting her from the Drewes, a stable, loving family that was already providing for her. Instead, she used the fact that she's a Crawley - the family that owns the land the Drewes live on* - to gain consistent access to their household and then sat there in their home playing with Marigold. Edith didn't think about that situation from the Drewes' side of things or even Marigold's. It was plain even to Edith that Mrs. Drewe was uncomfortable with the situation. Since Edith had no intention of taking responsibility for the child she should've respected the situation and backed off. Of course the show eventually threw Mrs. Drewe under the bus by trying to make her seem unstable in order to prop Edith up, an utterly idiotic development.

*Consider how inescapably obvious that would've been if Mr. Drewe had agreed to tell her lie. Taking in the child of a dead friend makes sense- taking in the child of the dead friend of an aristocrat you don't really know? O-kay.

Ugh, now I'm annoyed with her all over again. She really was the most like Robert of any of the children (Sybil being the most like Cora and Mary the most like Violet); conservative except when it personally benefited her to be otherwise, thoughtless when it comes to the consequences her actions might have for other people. Never helped that she was forever treated as a poor victim by the fandom which was maddening.

4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

These are minor interactions, but as I have already said Edith is simply not involved in their life as other characters because her plotline is about her finding a world away from Downton.

Fairly minor. I'm not trying to unnecessarily harp on her it's just striking when almost every single member of the Crawley family managed a long friendship with at least one member of the lower classes.

Edited February 22, 2018 by slf

[txhorns79]

Quote

Ugh, now I'm annoyed with her all over again. She really was the most like Robert of any of the children (Sybil being the most like Cora and Mary the most like Violet); conservative except when it personally benefited her to be otherwise, thoughtless when it comes to the consequences her actions might have for other people. Never helped that she was forever treated as a poor victim by the fandom which was maddening.

I don't know.  Didn't they show Edith going out of her way to help the wounded soldiers who stayed at Downton during the war?  I would agree that Edith was awful to the Drewes and she didn't always behave well, but I never got the impression that she really looked down on the lower classes. 

[Crs97]

Since my husband has been rewatching (and just finished), he had such sympathy for Mr. Drewe who just wanted to keep the land his family had worked for a century.  She picks him for her “favor,” he does it because he wants to pay back the Crawleys, and loses the land and his marriage and family in the process (because you know Mrs. Drewe will never forgive him or be the same again).  No good deed goes unpunished.  And Edith couldn’t care less.  By the time Bertie has to apologize to her for being upset that she withheld the Marigold story from him - well, he threw up his arms in exasperation.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Crs97

[slf]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know.  Didn't they show Edith going out of her way to help the wounded soldiers who stayed at Downton during the war?

They did show Edith being helpful to the soldiers which I mentioned before as the one of the good things she did.

It's weird, considering the 'poor Edith, victim of Mary' thing to rewatch the season one eps and realize just how often she'd instigate a fight with her sister. 

[TheGreenKnight]

I guess for me, a person doesn't have to be pure and innocent to also be a victim. Edith was a victim of her family--particularly Mary--even if she also had her bad qualities and beyond-the-pale moments just like every other character.

Someone was talking up-thread about Edith getting the information from Daisy about Pamuk, but I never thought Edith was cruel to Daisy in that situation? Daisy was terrified, but Edith never seemed as if she was intentionally trying to intimidate her or threaten her job, she just really wanted the information. She even sends Ms. O'Brien from the room because Daisy seems especially frightened of her.

[slf]

24 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I guess for me, a person doesn't have to be pure and innocent to also be a victim. Edith was a victim of her family--particularly Mary--even if she also had her bad qualities and beyond-the-pale moments just like every other character.

Indeed a person doesn't. But you can't walk up to someone, make an unnecessary and shitty comment, then get shocked and play the victim when that person says something back.

[TheGreenKnight]

Well, my opinion from my viewings of the show is that around 70% of the verbal sniping began on Mary's end.

[whateverdgaf]

If it is coming back to Mary vs Edith again, I just want to point out that on several occasions Edith tried to make amends and was sympathetic when Matthew was missing/dead, and was the one who made the first move after their argument in 608, whereas Mary never showed Edith any empathy and taunted her even when she was at her lowest. Plus, even in season 1 their is a major power imbalance between the two. Mary was the beloved daughter, adored and worshipped, whereas Edith was the family doormat. For Mary to use that power over Edith is petty, especially as Edith consistently grows away from the pettiness and makes a life for herself.

[whateverdgaf]

17 hours ago, slf said:

I disagree that it's more logical. After all, Sybil's character arc was also about leaving Downton too.

I agree. But I also feel that things like her wailing about her dress while Carson was collapsing can't be overlooked or dismissed either. That was huge and if Mary had done it....Jesus.

No comment has been made excusing Mr. Drewe since we are not discussing him*. We're discussing Edith's conduct. Nothing exists in a vacuum and that is just as true of her interactions with that family. A woman of her station taking an interest in the children of a local family might've been seen a positive thing; noblesse oblige was of course A Thing back then. But that's not what Edith was doing, as you say, she was using the Drewes to keep Marigold close by. And what Edith wanted was nuts. Don't get me wrong, it's very sad that she was in that situation but she had options. She could have simply adopted Marigold from the very beginning. Adopting an orphaned infant, while unusual for a noblewoman, is significantly less odd than adopting her from the Drewes, a stable, loving family that was already providing for her. Instead, she used the fact that she's a Crawley - the family that owns the land the Drewes live on* - to gain consistent access to their household and then sat there in their home playing with Marigold. Edith didn't think about that situation from the Drewes' side of things or even Marigold's. It was plain even to Edith that Mrs. Drewe was uncomfortable with the situation. Since Edith had no intention of taking responsibility for the child she should've respected the situation and backed off. Of course the show eventually threw Mrs. Drewe under the bus by trying to make her seem unstable in order to prop Edith up, an utterly idiotic development.

*Consider how inescapably obvious that would've been if Mr. Drewe had agreed to tell her lie. Taking in the child of a dead friend makes sense- taking in the child of the dead friend of an aristocrat you don't really know? O-kay.

Ugh, now I'm annoyed with her all over again. She really was the most like Robert of any of the children (Sybil being the most like Cora and Mary the most like Violet); conservative except when it personally benefited her to be otherwise, thoughtless when it comes to the consequences her actions might have for other people. Never helped that she was forever treated as a poor victim by the fandom which was maddening.

Fairly minor. I'm not trying to unnecessarily harp on her it's just striking when almost every single member of the Crawley family managed a long friendship with at least one member of the lower classes.

Sybil's storyline involving a member of staff was season 1 and 2. Season 1 Edith was bitter, selfish and consumed  by jealousy. No, she wouldn't have formed strong bonds with the staff. Season 2, she was nursing sick soldiers and making it possible for William to come to Downton where it would be possible to be near his loved ones. Season 3, both girls were wrapped up in their romantic plotlines. If Tom were to count, then Edith grows close to him as well and is supportive of their relationship. Out of all the characters in fact, she puts up the least resistance to their marriage. (When talking to Granny, points out that Sybil won't be changing her mind and acknowledges it's futile to do so. Doesn't show any anger, annoyance or sadness that the rest of the family shows.)

Edith's plotlines then move away from Downton, to her developing a life in London. But more than that, a big part of her character was that she was isolated. She had no true friend and her family regularly overlooked her feelings. She didn't dismiss nor dislike the servants, and those minor interactions showed there no was no animosity or dislike beytween them. Small as they were, post attending to William on his deathbed they were the only ones available and all of them point to her geting on well with them. But Edith was an outcast in her own home, she did not have Sybil's confidence nor the rest of her family's position (Lord/Lady/owner of the house), so she wasn't nearly as involved in their lives as others would be. And she may not have had a long term freindship with a member of the lower class, but she didn't have a long term friendship with anyone. Not of the upper class, nor lower class. It is only after she really gains confidence in season 6 that she forms a friendship with Laura.

Re: Carson, yse, Edith was selfish and thoughtless in that situation.But it barely impacted anyone and can hardly be considered huge, especially as it preceeded a major change in Edith's chaaracter. She then grew as a person, spurred on by her efforts in the war. Hence why she got a job speaking out against social injustices.

As for Marigold, yes her plan was poorly thought out, because she was desperate. Funny that, a mother desperate to be with her child. And as stupid as her plan was, Mr Drewe agreed to it. He agreed to tak her in so that Edith could be close. And then he backed out on the deal. Mrs Drewe's feelings were mainly her husband's responsiblity, not Edith's. It was Mr Drewe who should have prioritised his wife over anyone else, and it is Mr Drewe who has to take on the marjority of the blame for his wife's pain. Not Edith.  Instead of trusting his wife and finding a way for her to understand the situation, he overlooked her completely. And unlike Edith, he didn't have the excuse of trying to be near his only child. He wasn't going through Edith's agony and fear and therefore shuld have had more clarity on the situation. For all the blame Edith gets, it's Mr Drewe that was mainly responsible for his wife being hurt for deciding to leave her out in the dark. Edith should have been more considerate, but if it came down between her being with her daughter and hurting another woman, then Edith would chose her daughter. Like many other women.

And Edith had limited options. She couldn't open both of them to abuse and dissaproval; because if Marigold was discovered then she would certainly be treated as an outcast. For Edith to have adopted Marigold after a year in Switzerland 'learning French' would have blatantly obvious to everyone involved. Meanwhile Edith was living in agony not knowing what had happened to the man she loved, with the only family who knew pressuring her to send Marigold away completely. So if her decision was not rational, would anyone's be? With all the grief and doubt she was suffering through at the time.

Her actions were wrong, no one is disputing that. But were they unforgivable? For a mother in a terrible situation to go to extreme lengths to see her child? I can't see it.

And why Edith is seen as the victim? How about because she has been abused by her family her entire life? Mocked and belittled, dismissed and made to feel like she was nothing but a convenience. That's going to make a person grow up bitter and resentful. So, is Edith flawed. Yes, of course. But does she grow? More than any other character. Reaches out to Mary, finds confidence in her work in which she is speaking out on the behalf of others. (And only non-conservative when it beneffited her, again nursed William on his deathbed, spoke out for the plight of soliders losing their jobs, became a patron for a charity helping women form careers. I'm not seeing where any of this benefits her.)  

[Crs97]

Given Edith’s need to be seen as the victim over and over and over agin, I am now of the opinion that she had a perfectly normal childhood with the normal ups and downs any child experiences.

[slf]

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

And why Edith is seen as the victim? How about because she has been abused by her family her entire life? Mocked and belittled, dismissed and made to feel like she was nothing but a convenience.

Edith wasn't abused a day in her life! Edith was the spoiled daughter of one of, if not the, wealthiest families in the county. She had countless opportunities before her and chose to do nothing for years but sit around and feel sorry for herself. She fixated on men (Patrick, Matthew, Strallan) brought around for Mary, seeing gaining their attention and affection as a way to stick it to her sister, also for years.

[txhorns79]

Quote

She fixated on men (Patrick, Matthew, Strallan) brought around for Mary, seeing gaining their attention and affection as a way to stick it to her sister, also for years.

I don't know if she "fixated" on any of those guys, so much as showed interest in them.  I mean, Edith was going to marry Strallan, even after Mary was already happily married to Matthew.  Edith might have initially been happy that a guy was more interested in her than Mary, but she seemed to legitimately want to be with Strallan.

I don't think Edith was abused by her family, but I will say I'm sure she was aware of how her parents saw her (i.e. as a potential nursemaid for them in old age), and the conversations family members had making it seem like Edith was doomed to be a spinster. 

[slf]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know if she "fixated" on any of those guys, so much as showed interest in them.  I mean, Edith was going to marry Strallan, even after Mary was already happily married to Matthew.  Edith might have initially been happy that a guy was more interested in her than Mary, but she seemed to legitimately want to be with Strallan.

Oh, I think she eventually genuinely wanted to be with Strallan. But that's not how it got started. 

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't think Edith was abused by her family, but I will say I'm sure she was aware of how her parents saw her (i.e. as a potential nursemaid for them in old age), and the conversations family members had making it seem like Edith was doomed to be a spinster. 

She overheard her mother say that Mary shouldn't be unkind to Edith since the latter has fewer advantages, which was true. She was a second-born daughter with a much smaller inheritance. She was less social and outgoing, far less likely to form relationships with others (she really had no friends thru the first three or so seasons) than Sybil and even Mary- who was seen as an ice queen, one with a poor reputation. One can also suppose Cora meant Edith is less pretty than her sister, which is subjective (I think the actress is quite lovely ). Which I agree isn't great to hear. No one wants to hear their mother suggest they're less pretty than someone else. 

7 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Well, my opinion from my viewings of the show is that around 70% of the verbal sniping began on Mary's end.

Once I'd thought the same. Mary inherited Violet's caustic wit, after all. But PBS recently marathoned the series which is on my dvr and I've been rewatching the eps and every now and then. Edith is the instigator on average half the time. There are plenty of episodes when she starts the majority of fights, especially in the early seasons.

2 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

Season 1 Edith was bitter, selfish and consumed  by jealousy.

...That's exactly my point, though?

[TheGreenKnight]

7 hours ago, slf said:

Once I'd thought the same. Mary inherited Violet's caustic wit, after all. But PBS recently marathoned the series which is on my dvr and I've been rewatching the eps and every now and then. Edith is the instigator on average half the time. There are plenty of episodes when she starts the majority of fights, especially in the early seasons.

I've re-watched the series 4 or 5 times. I don't agree.

I think Edith suffered the most because of woman's place in society on Downton; that was probably even her narrative purpose to Fellowes considering she was the perpetual dog to be kicked. I consider her a victim mostly because of the family's general neglect and occasionally outright sabotage of her prospects.

[Crs97]

6 hours ago, slf said:

Once I'd thought the same. Mary inherited Violet's caustic wit, after all. But PBS recently marathoned the series which is on my dvr and I've been rewatching the eps and every now and then. Edith is the instigator on average half the time. There are plenty of episodes when she starts the majority of fights, especially in the early seasons.

I totally agree.  I remember at the time thinking that Edith should stop poking the bear if she got upset every time the bear roared.  She would make a dig and Mary would turn around and flatten her.  Girl, just stop!  My husband totally noticed it this time around.  I remember that Laura gave an interview early on that she warned her family Edith was “a bit of a bitch.”  She said her family kept defending her until the third episode and then finally said, “Yep, she is.” She never really grew for me; she had things happen to her, but I never thought she changed from her “it’s always someone else’s fault” mentality.

[slf]

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I totally agree.  I remember at the time thinking that Edith should stop poking the bear if she got upset every time the bear roared.  She would make a dig and Mary would turn around and flatten her.

Yep. In the premiere alone she starts three out of four arguments. Like when Mary and Sybil are discussing when they can go back to wearing colors and Edith inserts herself to make a judgy comment about Patrick. Everything had been civil until then. When Mary is getting dressed for the Duke's arrival Edith just starts sniping at her (the first dialogue of the scene). Then at the end when the Duke makes it plain he's not going to marry Mary and she's standing there by herself, Edith comes up behind her and mocks her. Mary starts a squabble exactly once, at the beginning of the episode when they're walking back from Patrick's memorial.

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I remember that Laura gave an interview early on that she warned her family Edith was “a bit of a bitch.”  She said her family kept defending her until the third episode and then finally said, “Yep, she is.”

That's hilarious.

[skyways]

7 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I've re-watched the series 4 or 5 times. I don't agree.

Lol.......even the actress said she was ******* as quoted above. I saw that interview. Seriously Edith was something else in season one. It was as if she lived to interject herself unpleasantly into situations and conversations. I rather enjoyed watching her because of it, complete with that self-satisfied smirk she always wore. I did not care for her after that season one though - became too grave and her eyes filled too easily with tears after yet another 'smack' from Mary or her father. Urgh!

Edited February 24, 2018 by skyways

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, skyways said:

Lol.......even the actress said she was ******* as quoted above. I saw that interview. 

You're right, it was season 1. I can't remember saying she was a ray of sunshine (not that it matters--Mary wasn't either).

[slf]

Edith sent a letter to the Turkish embassy and told them that Pamuk and Mary had sex and that's how Pamuk died. She did it with the hope that the story would spread and damage Mary's reputation. And it worked. People were gossiping about how unvirtuous she was, people were writing letters about, Mary was socially shunned in London, and it came back to bite her (and the family) in the ass with Vera. All of that because Mary mocked her clothes (after Edith made a dig at her). That Edith would later be all "do you think we'll ever be nice to each other", without having ever apologized for what she did? Every day that Mary stayed silent about Edith's involvement with that (Cora and Violet would've had something to say about Edith tattling to all of English society via a foreign diplomat, probably Robert too) was a day she showed Edith more kindness than I would have, and Mary was under no obligation to accept those half-assed olive branches without having received an apology.

I did, however, like Edith's peacock dress. Her sense of style improved greatly as the show went on.

[Crs97]

I imagine a scene in which Lord Grantham pulls Edith aside to gently break the news that he saw an obituary of Gregson’s wife and that Michael wasn’t as honorable as they had thought.  He is slightly horrified that she knew about the wife all along and wants to talk about it.  She heads into the drawing room with Lord Grantham in tow and finds Cora and Rosamund, who have seen the news and are talking about that horrible time and how awful Mary was.  Mary says, “It would have been nice if people had been as upset with Edith when she wrote to the Turkish embassy about the death of Mr. Pamuk.”  They are dumbfounded and turn to stare in horror at Edith.  I would be so happy.

[silverm]

re: using 'helping the convalescing soldiers' as an example of Edith interacting well with lower classes - it's made very explicit multiple times that Downton as a convalescent home is for officers only - when the idea is first put forward this is one of the things that is used to sway Cora. Isobel and Sybil specifically try to push on at least one occasion to have normal ranks also able to go there but Clarkson (I think) says it isn't appropriate.

Officers were drawn pretty much exclusively from the upper middle to upper classes basically on the virtue of having attended a private/public (in the UK sense) school which would have (in Edwardian think) taught them to be leaders.  So all of the injured men there would have been at the most  slightly inferior to the Crawleys but in no way comparable to servants/farmers. Lots would have been their social equal or superior - there was no Officer home plus, so even Dukes/Marquess etc. injured in battle would go there.

I know very few of the soliders are named, but of the only one that does get a significant plot, the one who has an affair with Ethel, is a Major, so a higher military rank than say, Matthew, and when we see his parents they are clearly not working/servant class, but upper middle, similar to Isobel/Matthew/Dr Clarkson. Mary also asks if Evelyn Napier can be transferred there.  

[Crs97]

Good point, silverm.  I will say that I liked that storyline.  Edith was desperate to be needed, and she found a way to be helpful without having the nursing credentials Sybil had.  Once she felt useful, she became more sympathetic.  I also had high hopes for the beginning of her writing career and was looking forward to seeing more of London through the eyes of a wealthy single woman.  I wanted to see how she reacted to the news events of the day.  Instead, we were stuck with the Gregson mess.  She had such chances for growth, and the writing didn’t follow up with any of them.  It was quite a let down.

[TheGreenKnight]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there. I personally thought Edith showed the most growth of any of the upstairs characters over the course of the series. They all changed slightly, but Cora, Isobel, Robert, Violet, and Mary aren't that different at the end from where they were at the beginning. The most I can see is with Cora, who finally takes on a role other than "mother/wife." Whereas Edith's interactions with Mary are more confident and indifferent in season 6 than in season 1, and her reaction to what looked like the end with Bertie is very different from how she acts after the end of her other romances.

As for Edith's letter in the first season, I would say that the act is horrible and that's undeniable. But any impact of the scandal on the family's reputation ultimately came from Mary's own actions and I can't pretend I don't get some perverse joy (as a viewer) out of watching Edith launch that bomb at Mary after a season of Mary being an entitled bitch to nearly everyone but most of all to Edith. Remember that the series begins with Mary spitting in the face of Edith's grief over their cousin, who Mary is just grateful she avoided marrying. And Mary later proves herself of the same "crime" as Edith, considering she risks enveloping the whole family in scandal at the end of season 6 by using Marigold as a weapon, when she and Edith are both in their thirties and hardly teenage rivals anymore.

[slf]

17 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

As for Edith's letter in the first season, I would say that the act is horrible and that's undeniable. But any impact of the scandal on the family's reputation ultimately came from Mary's own actions and I can't pretend I don't get some perverse joy (as a viewer) out of watching Edith launch that bomb at Mary after a season of Mary being an entitled bitch to nearly everyone but most of all to Edith. Remember that the series begins with Mary spitting in the face of Edith's grief over their cousin, who Mary is just grateful she avoided marrying. And Mary later proves herself of the same "crime" as Edith, considering she risks enveloping the whole family in scandal at the end of season 6 by using Marigold as a weapon, when she and Edith are both in their thirties and hardly teenage rivals anymore.

No, the scandal came from people knowing about it, something Edith understood clearly. (And Edith wasn't a teenager when she wrote that letter. Edith was 21, which is old enough to know better.) As you point out, Edith would later have an affair (that would produce a child, and she wasn't a young woman when it happened). That her behavior would've been considered scandalous at the time is misogyny, that it would've actually become a scandal would've been Mary's fault.

And, frankly, Mary acted no more entitled than Edith did throughout the first season. Edith hated Mary for being unofficially engaged to Patrick because Edith had a crush on him but she also bitched at Mary for not being in love with the guy. God forbid Mary not want to be forced into marriage, forced to have sex with someone. (Mary could've been more gracious w/r/t to other people's feelings regarding Patrick's death but I'm not gonna judge her for being relieved.) It was very easy for Edith to play the victim there when nothing was being asked of her or forced onto her. Her self-pitying, "I would've taken him like a shot if you'd given me the chance" makes me roll my eyes every time. Protocol would've dictated he marry the eldest but if he'd actually wanted Edith it could've been arranged that they marry each other instead. (Unusual but not impossible and according to Allen Leech that was Fellowes' plan for Sybil and Matthew.) She wasn't robbed of anything but she felt like she was and was a royal pain about it. And how did Mary prove herself of the same crime as Edith- she chose not to do?

And you'd think then, panicking about Mary knowing, it would occur to Edith what she'd done to Mary all those years ago but: no. Some people finally understand that what they do is messed up once it's done back to them. Edith, tho, is that kind of person who always thinks its worse when done to them.

Edited February 26, 2018 by slf

[TheGreenKnight]

21 is older than I think of them when watching the show, but a few years' difference doesn't have anything to do with knowing better. She should've known better at any age (although I'd say most people are more emotional at 21 than 30+, especially for two girls as immature as Mary and Edith). My point was more that they were still in some sense competition with one another during the first season whereas in the sixth season, they have barely anything to do with one another aside from sharing the same residence. Mary herself has been married once and been through several romances by then. And yet Mary still couldn't bear the possibility of Edith having a higher position of privilege for once in their lives.

What's strange to me is that Mary takes a bigger risk of harming herself by extension of ruining Edith in the 6th season than Edith did in the first. Edith was always at the bottom of the totem pole in her family with few options, so she risked little in writing the letter about Pamuk. Mary on the other hand is head of Downton when she blows open the Marigold situation. To still have that kind of bitterness at that age is pretty pathetic.

[Constant Viewer]

3 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Edith was always at the bottom of the totem pole in her family with few options, so she risked little in writing the letter about Pamuk.

I always felt Edith would have been touched by the scandal as well.  If one daughter behaved that way wouldn't all the Crawley girls be tainted? I know it would have mattered in Jane Austen's day.  

[BBHN]

I always preferred Mary over Edith, myself.

[slf]

8 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

My point was more that they were still in some sense competition with one another during the first season whereas in the sixth season, they have barely anything to do with one another aside from sharing the same residence. Mary herself has been married once and been through several romances by then. And yet Mary still couldn't bear the possibility of Edith having a higher position of privilege for once in their lives.

Well yes, of course, they were still in competition with each other. They hated each other. Adult siblings who despise one another are either not going to talk to each other or they're going to snipe at each other. Edith never moved on either. She got the superior title, the bigger home, skated for her worst offense against the family, and she still couldn't just move on. I've said before in the UO thread that Edith and Mary are very similar but in the worst ways and I still believe that.

8 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

What's strange to me is that Mary takes a bigger risk of harming herself by extension of ruining Edith in the 6th season than Edith did in the first. Edith was always at the bottom of the totem pole in her family with few options, so she risked little in writing the letter about Pamuk. Mary on the other hand is head of Downton when she blows open the Marigold situation. To still have that kind of bitterness at that age is pretty pathetic.

The show coddled Edith through the Pamuk incident. The idiot signed the letter. There's absolutely no way that shouldn't have come back to bite her in the ass in more ways than just Mary finding out and retaliating. Not to mention that Mary's reputation becoming ruined would've affected the whole family considering why her reputation was ruined. Edith would've suffered; she was a second daughter with a much smaller dowry. She was the plainest, the least liked socially (prior to the letter). Edith didn't have terrific prospects to start with and becoming the sister of a social pariah - a "slut" who had sex outside of marriage (and with a man, let's not pretend otherwise, who absolutely would not have been considered acceptable to English society) - apparently didn't do her any favors. Sibyl would've suffered, Cora and Robert would've suffered, etc.

Why shouldn't Mary be bitter? Edith remained bitter until the very end over sniping and a sibling rivalry she willing participated in, after all. What Edith did to Mary was far, far worse than anything Mary said or did to her prior to the letter and really even after it. Mary made a choice but Edith turned her into a social pariah as was her intention. That had a negative impact on Mary for years. Not everyone, I dare say most of us, get past major hurts like that. Mary isn't obligated to nor does it make her pathetic. It was certainly inconvenient for poor little Edith but that's a grave she dug herself.

4 hours ago, BBHN said:

I always preferred Mary over Edith, myself.

Me as well. Mary at least acknowledges she's not a pleasant person and the show doesn't pretend she is, either. I can respect that more.

Quote

With that said, young, foolish, jealous, call it what you like, Edith's letter to the Turkish embassy was frankly the sword blow that severed Mary and Edith's relationship. The only reason Mary wasn't married off to Sir Richard, a possible abuser and all around asshole, is mostly luck. The only reason Mary wasn't ruined was that Matthew is oddly ok with his wife sleeping around.  But that doesn't change the fact that Mary has no reason to trust Edith or help Edith or be kind to Edith because Edith is the one who dropped the A-Bomb on that relationship. If ten years later, Mary isn't over her own sister betraying her and merrily calling her a slut - that's a problem Edith caused.

This.

Edited February 27, 2018 by slf

[TheGreenKnight]

15 hours ago, slf said:

The show coddled Edith through the Pamuk incident. The idiot signed the letter. There's absolutely no way that shouldn't have come back to bite her in the ass in more ways than just Mary finding out and retaliating. Not to mention that Mary's reputation becoming ruined would've affected the whole family considering why her reputation was ruined. Edith would've suffered; she was a second daughter with a much smaller dowry. She was the plainest, the least liked socially (prior to the letter). 

This is what I was referring to by "few options." At that point, she (and most others in the family) believed she would end her life as an old maid, which is why she didn't risk much of herself by ruining Mary. Which is quite the opposite case of Mary in season 6, considering by that point Mary finally has power, independence, her children, the choice to marry who she likes or not marry at all, etc.

Why shouldn't Mary be bitter? Edith remained bitter until the very end over sniping and a sibling rivalry she willing participated in, after all.

What Edith did to Mary was far, far worse than anything Mary said or did to her prior to the letter and really even after it. Mary made a choice but Edith turned her into a social pariah as was her intention. That had a negative impact on Mary for years. Not everyone, I dare say most of us, get past major hurts like that. Mary isn't obligated to nor does it make her pathetic. It was certainly inconvenient for poor little Edith but that's a grave she dug herself.

Well, I can't agree with that in any sense.

We'll have to agree to disagree as far as whether or not it makes her pathetic, along with most things that concern Mary and Edith. To care so much years later about someone she considers so inferior to her is pathetic to me, especially when she got her revenge on Edith for the Pamuk letter almost as soon as it happened, by setting her potential marriage with Strallan aflame. What I liked best about the Pamuk letter was that, as has been remarked before, Mary would often cut Edith much deeper when it came to their sniping. The Pamuk letter was the one time Edith dealt the bigger blow, and I found that satisfying.

[slf]

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

We'll have to agree to disagree as far as whether or not it makes her pathetic, along with most things that concern Mary and Edith. 

Most definitely.

That Edith would respond to a snipe about her clothes by exposing her sister (and family) to social ridicule, turned her into a pariah, etc., makes her beyond pathetic. Edith and Mary rarely knew how to rise above but Edith sunk lower than Mary ever did. Edith deserved every snipe sent her way and then some.

And her clothes were hideous.

[TheGreenKnight]

I think it was about more than clothes....... Patrick, her looks, her lack of suitors, the list goes on.

[BBHN]

Quote

That Edith would respond to a snipe about her clothes by exposing her sister (and family) to social ridicule, turned her into a pariah, etc., makes her beyond pathetic. Edith and Mary rarely knew how to rise above but Edith sunk lower than Mary ever did. Edith deserved every snipe sent her way and then some.

And her clothes were hideous.

Edith was such an Eeyore.

[slf]

7 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I think it was about more than clothes....... Patrick, her looks, her lack of suitors, the list goes on.

That's actually worse since none of those things are Mary's fault.

[AZChristian]

14 hours ago, slf said:

And her clothes were hideous.

I went to a Downton Abbey costume exhibition at Winterthur in Delaware a few years ago.  Many, many beautiful gowns and daytime outfits.  But the most outstanding - by far - was Edith's wedding gown when she was supposed to marry Sir Anthony.  The camera did not do it justice.  It was exquisitely embroidered.  Part of the gown was true vintage from the era, but the costumers had to "remake" the majority of the dress from the one salvageable part of the train.  It was exquisite.

[slf]

Just now, AZChristian said:

I went to a Downton Abbey costume exhibition at Winterthur in Delaware a few years ago.  Many, many beautiful gowns and daytime outfits.  But the most outstanding - by far - was Edith's wedding gown when she was supposed to marry Sir Anthony.  The camera did not do it justice.  It was exquisitely embroidered.  Part of the gown was true vintage from the era, but the costumers had to "remake" the majority of the dress from the one salvageable part of the train.  It was exquisite.

Oh her later season clothes were actually quite stylish, sometimes far more than Mary's. But her season one outfits, especially the one Mary mocked, were hideous. She looked like Little Bo Peep.