S04.E5: The Fox and the Hound

[Norma Desmond]

4 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Kate seemed like an okay character, I did like how she pulled a knife on Joe because only killers are so good at hiding bodies! But then she had sex with him??

And then he said, "I'm not  a killer" and she was like, okay!

 

It's starting to wear thin my suspension of diesbelief, and I'm someone who used to have a lot of it.

[methodwriter85]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:12 PM, BlueSkies said:

Roald was very much a douche bag.  He looked like one, had the personality of one, and was just generally an unlikeable fellow.  But then that made me realize the actor that played him did a good job with his role.

 

 

So I actually pulled out my inner Joe Goldberg to find out more about him.  His name is Ben Wiggins and his date of birth isn't even on his IMBD page or he doesn't have a Wikipedia page.  But he was a fitness trainer in England a few years ago

 

 

https://www.barrys.com/instructor/ben-wiggins/

He reminded me of Cody Fern if Cody Fern had a black grandparent. I kept watching him and thinking about he and Ruby Modine would be great in a "biracial people passing as white" movie.

The "Rhys is an illusion" theory is a great one.

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

He reminded me of Cody Fern if Cody Fern had a black grandparent. I kept watching him and thinking about he and Ruby Modine would be great in a "biracial people passing as white" movie.

The "Rhys is an illusion" theory is a great one.

I looked up Cody Fern- I do see the resemblance. 
 

Rhys COULD be an illusion, but would he be on tv? I guess if he just existed in Joe’s head- sure. 
 

Again why was Kate so into Joe? I get being nice to him after the mugging, but despite Penn Bagdely being an attractive man, he’s not SO MAGNETIC women are just falling all over him constantly, I’m suspending disbelief a little bit. Especially after Kate’s boyfriend was murdered- the clothes was a nice gesture but they took a capable woman and made her a damsel for Joe to save. I remember the girlfriend he had when he and Beck were broken up in Season 1 (the black woman that was a nurse), I liked her! We need another female character like her that isn’t mesmerized by Joe or dismissing him because of his background. 

[peachmangosteen]

25 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Rhys COULD be an illusion, but would he be on tv? I guess if he just existed in Joe’s head- sure. 

I think the theory is that Rhys is a real person but Joe is making up him doing the killings because it's actually him, Joe, that's doing it.

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think the theory is that Rhys is a real person but Joe is making up him doing the killings because it's actually him, Joe, that's doing it.

Oh I better understand now! Thanks. 

[cmahorror]

New theory to throw out there - Rhys is real and the killer but he has a partner - Phoebe. 

My theory is that Joe recognized the sociopath in Phoebe hence her saying that he saw her in a way no one else ever has. Phoebe figured out that Joe was a sociopath too and decided to make him their scapegoat for the murders. Phoebe and Rhys are both sick of the group and want to help him get elected mayor with her eventually becoming his wife after he is elected. They have the makings of a nightmare power couple - she has money and fame and he is the serious intellectual. Together they appeal to everyone in London and put themselves on track for running his becoming Prime Minister while she pulls his strings in the background. 

It may sound crazy but no crazier than anything else on this show...

[Door County Cherry]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Rhys COULD be an illusion, but would he be on tv? I guess if he just existed in Joe’s head- sure. 

 

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think the theory is that Rhys is a real person but Joe is making up him doing the killings because it's actually him, Joe, that's doing it.

Yeah.  He's a real person with real political ambitions but all of the interactions he has with Joe are actually a figment of Joe's imagination.  So Rhys on TV or speaking to the funeral?  Real Rhys.  Any conversation he has with Joe?  All in Joe's head. No one else speaks to him in those situations even if there are a lot of people around. 

[tennisgurl]

I am conflicted about this half of the season. The new characters are mostly boring and generic, I really cant tell you anything about any of these interchangeable assholes individually except for Phoebe and maybe Adam, and the season was lacking that great mix of dark comedy and horror that last season had, but I did end up liking it in general. Joe not having an official obsession and have his own stalker is at least made it feel different than previous seasons. 

Rys being the new big bad for Joe to fight feels like another lame attempt to make Joe look a bit better by putting him next to another bad person, but I think there is potential here. Like Love, Rys could be another reflection of Joe, but while Love was his dangerous obsession with a possessive form of romance, Rys is his contempt for the people around him. One of the things that Joe talks most about in his internal monologues about, other than his latest obsession, is how everyone he meets is just such an idiot, such a phony, such an asshole, especially compared to himself. There are some exceptions, but he very much sees most people as various degrees of useless, and he generally views society at large as being just as idiotic and phony as he sees people, seeing himself as the only sane man and last bastion of decency in a sea of vapid consumerism. Rys is just a variation of that, except he's taking "action" against the people that society benefits by killing them off while using their deaths for his own political gain. Joe can tell himself that he isn't like Rys, that he isn't a serial killer who just kills people because he doesn't like them, but he isn't any better for killing people due to his obsessions. Its like how he always thought that he had some kind of moral high ground to Love because she killed impulsively and he killed as a part of his plans, he can tell himself that he's better than Rys because he's technically not a serial killer, but its clear that he isn't better than either of them.

I have no idea if that will end up being what they do with Rys, but it would be interesting if they did. Joe's utter lack of self awareness is one of his most defining traits, always getting all shocked by things like stalking and murder when he's doing the exact same things and telling himself over and over that he's a good guy, I think that the show might have to end when Joe admits what a monster he is. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by tennisgurl

[nomodrama]

On 2/12/2023 at 4:11 PM, SoWindsor said:

I guess I'm in the minority but this might be my favorite season. I know that seems really weird but I liked that he wasn't obsessed with another woman. It was a nice change a pace and a way to make the season different than the others. 

Same. 

I find the women that Joe decides to fall into obsession with so uninteresting. Beck was so desperate, I absolutely hated Love and Marienne is so boring. I also can't stand how corny Joe gets when he is in "love." I always prefer the women he ends up hooking up with but isn't stalking (Karen, Delilah). I thought this season was a major improvement. 

Having Rhys be the ETRK was kind of a let down though, I was hoping it would be Kate as that would be so much more interesting (though I guess it would have been too much of a rehash of Love so I understand why they didn't), or Phoebe because that would have been the least expected. 

Looking forward to the second half of the season. 

 

 

[KaveDweller]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:54 PM, cmahorror said:

New theory to throw out there - Rhys is real and the killer but he has a partner - Phoebe. 

My theory is that Joe recognized the sociopath in Phoebe hence her saying that he saw her in a way no one else ever has. Phoebe figured out that Joe was a sociopath too and decided to make him their scapegoat for the murders. Phoebe and Rhys are both sick of the group and want to help him get elected mayor with her eventually becoming his wife after he is elected. They have the makings of a nightmare power couple - she has money and fame and he is the serious intellectual. Together they appeal to everyone in London and put themselves on track for running his becoming Prime Minister while she pulls his strings in the background. 

I would love if Phoebe was actually the killer. She is so bubble, it would be an awesome twist.

[Scarlett45]

I agree @tennisgurl last season was FUNNY. Given I watched the seasons all in a row, I can say Season 3 had a humor that made it special, especially because the neighbors were such good characters. 
 

I get that so much of this series is inside Joes head, but he does need friends/comrades (I think I said that up thread). Joe having his own stalker was a good idea, but he needed to actually interact with other characters and not just watch. 

[Lady Calypso]

I also wonder if the reason this first half of the season isn't favourable to many is because they split it up. I think this could be the type of show that simply needs to be binged and not split IF 4B is actually good.

I think back to the first three seasons and if it would have worked for those seasons to be split up. I think YOU is the type of the show that does have a slow build-up. It has interesting parts, for sure, but I think it's better watched in a binge watch. I feel like YOU has never had a strong first half and its latter half is usually better. 

That being said, I think the lack of character originality is the biggest issue here. It's mostly the same generic rich privileged (mostly white) adults who Joe can snark about, coupled in with one character who stands out (I would give that to Nadia, who reminds me a lot of Ellie; Phoebe is interesting, for sure, but still falls within the rich kid trope that they love to do on this show). How are they any different than the past seasons' batch of characters? That and I do think Joe being more passive, though adding a different aspect to the show, is not what makes this season work. Joe NEEDS to be active because that is what draws people in to the show. I personally don't want to watch Joe try to be good for ten episodes. I go into the show KNOWING that he's not a good guy and is always going to revert to killing and stalking and being an overall misogynist. 

I think it's a fine angle to take with Joe, but I think it would work better if the season came out all at once. Splitting it up, even if the break is only one month, makes it rough to watch Joe be so passive and I think maybe the season will be better received once 4B comes out and we are able to watch the season in its entirety. Maybe it'll add layers to many of the characters that are very 2D right now (Phoebe and Nadia are the only ones that have a spark of a personality for me; MAYBE Adam, but he's a character I think I need to see his entire arc for first).

[Black Knight]

On balance, I actually like this season's cast of characters better than any other season's.

Kate's my favorite of the women Joe has slept with. I love her acerbic humor, and then there are her moments of badassery like going out with the ax or saving Joe and Roald from the fire.

Gemma was just so wonderfully terrible and set Joe up for some of his best lines. Her murder was quite satisfying.

Phoebe is very charming and likable. (Although I'm intrigued by the theory that she's Rhys's accomplice!) And Adam pairs well with her.

Nadia of course is a scene-stealer. And I think there might be more to her, too. Joe never actually read that letter she wrote Malcolm, and Nadia just seems too smart to have been emotionally invested in a guy who probably couldn't go 5 minutes without saying something demeaning, racist and/or classist to her.

I could listen to Rhys read the dictionary all day long.

And after three seasons focused on Joe stalking women and being mostly in control, I think it was high time to reverse the formula and put him in a situation where he's constantly off-balance and not in the driver's seat.

[peachmangosteen]

6 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Nadia of course is a scene-stealer. And I think there might be more to her, too. Joe never actually read that letter she wrote Malcolm, and Nadia just seems too smart to have been emotionally invested in a guy who probably couldn't go 5 minutes without saying something demeaning, racist and/or classist to her.

Oh yea, there has to be more going on there. The fact that Joe never even looked at the letter proves that it is nothing like what she said it was lol.

Even though I found part 1 boring as hell overall, I am still very intrigued by a lot of stuff and I do think the 2nd half will be more engaging and fun.

[eXiled]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:26 PM, krankydoodle said:

Also, did anyone even mention Sean Pertwee's character disappearing without giving notice? Strange that his role was so small.

Phoebe's a worrier and a whiner, so when she made no mention of Vic's disappearance, I briefly thought she might have been the stalker-murderer. It just seemed odd that she would make no mention of it, especially since Vic seemed like a big part of her daily routine.

[eXiled]

On 2/26/2023 at 8:14 PM, KaveDweller said:

I would love if Phoebe was actually the killer. She is so bubble, it would be an awesome twist.

See my post above. That would make the most sense to me, especially since Joe SUPPOSEDLY told her something so important that he can't recall.