S12.E05: Episode 5

[plasticrona]

Dr. Turner was born in 1909 (according to Stephen Mcgann's book 'Dr. Turner's Casebook') and Shelagh was born in either 1925 or 1926 (in Series 6, Episode 3 when Shelagh is in hospital the consultant says she is a 36 year old elderly primigravida). So in Season 12 they are 59 and ~42.

In real life Stephen McGann was born in 1963 and Laura Main in 1981, so their characters' ages reflect their real ages.

I think Shelagh probably was pregnant. In addition to the dead rabbit symbolism, she was sniffing the bowl of eggs (remember her sensitive stomach when she was pregnant with Teddy?).

Edited April 18, 2023 by plasticrona

[caitmcg]

Fred certainly proved himself a liability to Nonnatus House (and Dr. Turner’s maternity home and surgery), not because he’s not a qualified repairman or because he has Reggie assist him, but because he blithely and unthinkingly spouted off all of Nonnatus’s business to the BOH president after he introduced himself as such. Fred only looked a a bit abashed when he looked at the man’s card after the fact. 

4 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

When Shelagh started listing her symptoms, I was sure she wasn't pregnant but was starting menopause. I thought it was interesting her first thought was pregnancy, not menopause, unless she's way too young for the start of menopause. 

Conversely, I have a friend who became pregnant at 44 (unplanned), and she said when she missed a couple of periods at that age, her first thought wasn’t pregnancy, it was perimenopause. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by caitmcg

[caitmcg]

2 hours ago, LtKelley said:

42 would be young for Shelagh to be in menopause then. At least compared to me. 

Perimenopause at that age is certainly possible, but pregnancy is not at all a stretch. 

[Daff]

In anatomy classes, they always teach that structure locations (nerves, veins,  arteries, and even some organs), and event milestones (tooth eruption, puberty, menopause) are merely guidelines. They always caution: the genes you end up with don’t necessarily read the textbooks.

[kwnyc]

10 hours ago, caitmcg said:

Fred certainly proved himself a liability to Nonnatus House (and Dr. Turner’s maternity home and surgery), not because he’s not a qualified repairman or because he has Reggie assist him, but because he blithely and unthinkingly spouted off all of Nonnatus’s business to the BOH president after he introduced himself as such. Fred only looked a a bit abashed when he looked at the man’s card after the fact. 

While he's been rehabilitated as a character, Fred's always saying things out of turn, doing slightly dodgy stuff, and getting in trouble because he doesn't shut up.

I think this was another strong episode, though both the wife and I said: "he's going to die now," when Pops went upstairs. 

The Council bathing scheme was illuminating. As late as 1968 (thanks, Dr. Exposition!) there were still people living in tenements that didn't have indoor bathrooms. The elderly folks who needed bathing (I remembered the scene where Sr. Evangelina bathed the workhouse survivor) did need that kind of care.

And Matthew's reaction is why he's such a strong character. He's a rich toff who could be all "let me take you away from all this" to Trixie (who wouldn't go), but rather, he's immersed himself in Poplar life and is questioning his own role as someone who's profited from the poverty, and what his obligation is as someone who has a lot. 

 

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, LtKelley said:

42 would be young for Shelagh to be in menopause then. At least compared to me. 

It's not too young for perimenopause.  At least not in my mother's family.  Personally, I have no idea because I stopped having periods in my late 30s even though my hormone levels were not menopausal.

 

[Bunnyette]

On 4/17/2023 at 9:02 AM, Blackie said:

 

Maybe they will move to Canada together, I think at that time there was starting to be migration from the Caribbean to Canada

 

Yes so random if you weren't able to come on here and read the deleted scenes. Also the 2 sec seen of Teddy running into the kitchen and Shelagh running out to the garden, I had no clue what was going on.  Also more bad editing with one scene in Dr Turners office immediately to another scene in Dr Turners office at a totally different time. They either splice in 2 sec scenes of other storylines into a dramatic scene, or run together scenes filmed in the same location, so you can't tell if it is the same scene, same day or what.  I think this year is getting worse for that.  

Yes, that was the time Canada was recruiting skilled workers to Canada too.

[Bunnyette]

On 4/17/2023 at 3:49 PM, eel21788 said:

Severe symptoms of schizophrenia can be brought on by stress in someone who otherwise had the symptoms under control. Just having a baby is enough of a stressor to cause an exacerbation. Having an out of wedlock biracial baby would certainly add more to that stress.

Back then, schizophrenia meds were used more to mask the symptoms than treat the disease. The side effects they caused were considered to be less disturbing than the symptoms they were supposed to mask.

Especially in the late 1960’s in London, UK

[Badger]

10 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

It's not too young for perimenopause.  At least not in my mother's family.  Personally, I have no idea because I stopped having periods in my late 30s even though my hormone levels were not menopausal.

 

There's a character on Coronation Street who is going through menopause even though she is only 21.

[JudyObscure]

19 hours ago, kwnyc said:

The Council bathing scheme was illuminating. As late as 1968 (thanks, Dr. Exposition!) there were still people living in tenements that didn't have indoor bathrooms. The elderly folks who needed bathing (I remembered the scene where Sr. Evangelina bathed the workhouse survivor) did need that kind of care.

As much as I love babies being born, this look at life in London tenements has always been my favorite part of CTM.  I wish they hadn't felt the need to move the time period forward every year, because the early shows in the 1950's just amazed me. 

I grew up in West Virginia and there were children in my elementary school who lived in shacks and came to school barefoot in the fall (until my mom's PTA group would buy them shoes.)  They had no indoor plumbing and would be encouraged by the teacher to wash themselves in a bucket of water from the pump or the creek.  I didn't think you could get any poorer than that.

Now I know an outhouse in the woods that was only used by your own family would have been a luxury to poor people in Poplar who had to share,  and a shack in the woods with a fire burning would be better than a cold flat overrun by vermin. 

[Kenzie]

MELBOURNE ARKANSAS 1914. My grandfather W.R. Johnson (top row, bow tie) in front of the one-room schoolhouse where he taught local farm children. My grandmother Jeffie is to his left on the same row and between them is their oldest child, my uncle Glen, aged three. My uncle later fought in the Battle of the Bulge during WW2 and later served in Congress in the late forties.

The play yard consisted of one swing and one teeter-totter. My grandmother started the wood burning stove before class every morning during fall and winter, acted as school nurse and made homemade baseballs for the boys to play with by wrapping string tightly around a small rock and sewing a homemade cover. She also taught embroidery to the girls. In 1922 my father, the last of five surviving children, was born in the upstairs teacherage of yet another one-room schoolhouse on the banks of Horney Toad (Petiquaw) Creek in Oklahoma. 

My dad said it was pretty common for kids to come to school barefoot until cold weather set in and then they would switch to the previous years (now worn) "Sunday" shoes. 

[JudyObscure]

Great story,  Kenzie.  Your grandparents were good looking people!

[statsgirl]

 

On 4/17/2023 at 3:49 PM, eel21788 said:

Severe symptoms of schizophrenia can be brought on by stress in someone who otherwise had the symptoms under control. Just having a baby is enough of a stressor to cause an exacerbation. Having an out of wedlock biracial baby would certainly add more to that stress.

Back then, schizophrenia meds were used more to mask the symptoms than treat the disease. The side effects they caused were considered to be less disturbing than the symptoms they were supposed to mask.

He is also the age (late teens, twenties) when the symptoms of schizophrenia first appear.

There is no cure for schizophrenia, all treatments try to treat the symptoms and minimize future recurrences. The early drugs used to treat it had a lot of side effects, the most apparent to outsiders were the ones affecting the extrapyramidal neurons in the nervous system causing the ticks and twitches that were common back then.

On 4/17/2023 at 8:47 PM, Sarah 103 said:

When Shelagh started listing her symptoms, I was sure she wasn't pregnant but was starting menopause. I thought it was interesting her first thought was pregnancy, not menopause, unless she's way too young for the start of menopause. 

Late life or peri-menopuase surprise! pregnancies happen because the body starts throwing out eggs before it's too late. So it's not surprising that Shelagh thought pregnancy since that's what she works with.. If Shelagh didn't know when the women in her family hit menopause (and few women did), the window could go from the mid 30s to mid 50 or later. And no one likes to think that they're old enough for menopause. 😟

[Quof]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

the body starts throwing out eggs before it's too late.

A "going out of business sale"   Dr. Lu Saperstein aka Henry Winkler, Parks and Rec. 

[natyxg]

I felt like there were way too many stories in this episode, all of them disconnected from the other, and none done well because there just wasn't the time.

[Zorione]

On 4/16/2023 at 11:05 PM, statsgirl said:

There is a body of research findings that people from Africa and the Caribbean are more likely to develop psychosis than other ethnic groups when migrate to the UK or the US but it's not that well known. 

Yeah, for whatever reason, psych diagnosers have a tendency to perceive psychotic illness in black individuals. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Zorione

[JudyObscure]

On 4/27/2023 at 11:11 AM, Zorione said:

Yeah, for whatever reason, psych diagnosers have a tendency to perceive psychotic illness in black individuals. 

Research has found a connection between prenatal famine conditions (Chinese Famine of 1950's and Dutch Hunger Winter ) and schizophrenia.  So that people from countries with a lower food supply  may have a higher rate of schizophrenia. 

 

[statsgirl]

Young migrants from Africa at increased risk of developing psychosis

Quote

Young people who have migrated to Australia from Africa are up to 10 times more likely to develop a psychotic disorder than their Australian-born counterparts, Orygen research has found.

Meanwhile, young migrants born in Asia are at a decreased risk of developing a psychotic disorder, the Orygen researchers found.

Schizophrenia and Migration: A Meta-Analysis and Review

Quote

A personal or family history of migration is an important risk factor for schizophrenia. The differential risk pattern across subgroups suggests a role for psychosocial adversity in the etiology of schizophrenia.
(Am J Psychiatry 2005

Effects of country of origin and wave of immigration on prevalence of schizophrenia among first and second-generation immigrants: A 30-year retrospective study (2022)

Quote

our novel findings indicate that immigrants from developing countries who are a visible minority are at increased risk for developing schizophrenia compared to those who are not a visible

 

[JudyObscure]

That's interesting information about migration being a risk factor.  I remember reading once that early research showed that moving from farms to towns raised the risk factor.  Then there's concussions, mononucleosis, cannabis use, LSD, exposure to cats ... At one time I was obsessed with finding the cause.