S01.E08: The Creation of a Thousand Forests

[AnimeMania]

Season Finale

Lev sabotages Flynne’s treatment. Ash finds an unlikely ally. Wilf discovers some unsettling truths about Aelita. Flynne tries to save her world from Cherise.

Original Air Date: December 2, 2022

[Quilt Fairy]

I was all in after the last episode, but after this one, I'm quite confused.  Not to mention disappointed that they resolved so little and kicked so much over to a second season that's probably a year off.

BTW, don't tune out when the final credits start rolling, there's a final scene with Lev Zubov that you will miss. 

[jcdrisco]

Thanks for alerting me to the post-credits scene!

(Agreed I don’t need spoiler tages—rules are different on other forums)

So Flynne is dead in her original stub, which now likely doesn’t experience the Jackpot early, but she is alive in the new stub she created and piloting her peripheral in future London?

An aspect I’ve enjoyed of Gibson’s books is the lack of explanations of settings; the reader needs to figure it out as she or he is going along.  I’m finding this a bit harder to take as a TV series.  Nonetheless, I very much look forward to a second season.

Edited December 3, 2022 by jcdrisco

[Notwisconsin]

okay, I don't think you need the spoiler tag, as everyone on this thread knows the ending or wants to be spoiled. The preview of season 2, at the end of the credits, is interesting, but I'm not sure in what timeline it is. As to the episode itself, it's more of a denouement than a climax, which was the previous episode. This is sort of like 'Counterpart' meets 'Frequencies'.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Notwisconsin
wrong movie.

[Nellise]

This is not a show to watch casually I guess since my feeling about the whole thing is: What?

Maybe this would be better if I didn't watch it weekly and watched it all at once, but I had sort of the same feeling after a lot of the episodes.

I got whiplash every time Flynne switched from "confused/sad/empathetic" Flynne to "I'm going to murder everyone" Flynne.

The future fight scenes have all felt kind of silly, like they added them to just have some sort of action. The 2032 fights had more advanced tech in their fights than the 2100 fights did. In 2032 they're using advanced drones, guns that can shoot through brick walls, and handheld shockwave weapons, while in 2100 they're robots fighting hand to hand...

[peach]

Did Not Like

[peach]

Watched again with my husband, who did like it.  I haven't changed my opinion.  But now I have time to opine, lol. This really fell apart for me.

What I did like:  Wilf & Flynne, and Alaeta's part about the implants. 

But if Ash was tracking them with her magic 8 ball, why doesn't she now know where Aleata is too?  Or do they not care since they know the information is inside Flynne, so Aleata doesn't matter anymore?  Don't they know Aleate is a Neoprim?  Wilf does.  Ash claimed she wanted to give the data to the Neoprims, when the Neoprims stole it in the first place.  Instead she goes to Cherise?

Remind me never to commit a crime with Tommy.   Why in the heck did he put the gun back in the evidence bag????  And take it with him?  

I'm mystified by Flynne's plan.  How is this not all going to repeat itself in another stub anyway?  How could she get back to Lowbeer, with the data, unless it all happened again?  Meanwhile she's abandoned her brother.  Everything is still happening in their timeline. Burton will go OFF THE RAILS after her death and want to cause all sorts of trouble.  Legless Connor is still stuck in this existence.  There are still heaps of problems here.  Maybe Cherise won't go thru with the silo thing, but isn't the Jackpot going to happen anyway?  Why didn't they just LEAVE?

I find it difficult to believe Connor would have really shot her.  Why didn't she just kill herself?

Is there going to be This Burton and a New Burton visiting the future?  He's actually my favorite character and he wasn't even in this episode.

That's my list of complaints for now. lol

 

[dwmarch]

5 hours ago, Nellise said:

This is not a show to watch casually I guess since my feeling about the whole thing is: What?

I'd like to think I watched this show closely and I'm in the same boat. I feel like this show plays fast and loose with its own rules if and when it bothers to establish them. Like now all of a sudden Flynn's solution is to create a new stub? From what we saw in this episode a new stub is absurdly trivial to create. Go through a door, pick up a watch, mess around with a computer interface for a few seconds. So why didn't the bad guys think of doing this? But then again, I thought they already did and they were farming several stubs for several different things. So what difference should it make to them if Flynn closes down one stub and opens another one?

I'm also not sure what is going on with the data that was stolen from the RI and implanted in Flynn. Did she somehow end up with the only working copy? Also, bearing in mind that she's not exactly living in a technological paradise, what is she supposed to do with data from the future anyhow? Let's remember that this data is somehow encoded as DNA on bacteria. Sure, let me just open up the app on my phone for reading DNA data from bacteria.

We also don't have any kind of answer as to how Flynn gets shot dead in one timeline but seamlessly carries on in the future. So you can discard your body in any particular stub and swap it out for another one from another stub? You think maybe Connor might be interested in this? Or your mom, who might not be dying of aggressive cancer in another stub? Or will everything reset, including any kind of character development we have been following since the beginning of the show?

And hey look, a bonus scene introducing more scheming people with an opaque agenda! This is starting to remind me of 24 and not in a good way.

[shrewd.buddha]

This was a disappointing ending to the season: no conclusions to any of the storylines.  Attempting to stretch the contents of one book over two (or more) seasons is not a good plan when almost all of the episodes feel overlong and stuffed with superfluous details.

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I feel like this show plays fast and loose with its own rules if and when it bothers to establish them.

There was a lot of this ^^. Peripheral-Flynne was created and owned by Lev Zubov. But now Peripheral-Flynn is popping into future London to have secret meetings with Lowbeer, Peripheral-Conner, Wilf, etc.  Wilf sometimes even seems surprised when Peripheral-Flynne 'appears'. How is that? 

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

We also don't have any kind of answer as to how Flynn gets shot dead in one timeline but seamlessly carries on in the future. So you can discard your body in any particular stub and swap it out for another one from another stub?

My only explanation for this is that Peripheral-Flynne created a new connection (stub) to the past - but a past very near her own timeline - when human-Flynne still has the data-DNA in her head. Otherwise, what would be the point?  Lowbeer would have to bring human-Flynne up to speed on what events she had missed. 
But it seems a simpler solution would be for human-Flynne to just leave RedNeck-town in 2032 and go into hiding.  Cherise Nuland wouldn't have a reason to set off the nuke and would have to track her down. 

10 hours ago, dwmarch said:

From what we saw in this episode a new stub is absurdly trivial to create.

I could understand that a new 'stub' location could be like a secret bank account number or unknown website address -- but it takes an entire facility to maintain one (or so it looks).  

My other major issue is Lowbeer.  What is the point of this character?  She seems to have some sort of authority (making peripherals dance at her command), but she doesn't seem concerned with upholding any laws. 
Lowbeer is now secretly scheming with Peripheral-Flynne, who wants to take down Cherise Nuland (and maybe Lev Zubov). 
Aelita and Ash's agenda appears to be anarchy.  Why would a government official help with that? 

16 hours ago, Nellise said:

The future fight scenes have all felt kind of silly, like they added them to just have some sort of action.

The majority of what happens in future London is people having exposition conversations to explain things - and doing a poor job of it.  
Peripheral-Flynne gets into a few scuffles trying to get information -- but it doesn't make much sense why Flynne, a good gamer, is supposed to also be a good investigative detective. 
In episode 7, it also made little sense for Lowbeer to 'create' an eight story building out of nothingness for some combat demonstration (to what end?) - but there are already lots of abandoned buildings in London. Was the building a physical hologram? Because the Peripherals are actual, physical robots that interact with physical objects.  It seems as if the showrunners are attempting to liven things up with unnecessary action scenes.  

Edited December 3, 2022 by shrewd.buddha

[ottoDbusdriver]

Displayed when Flynne put the watch on the pedestal.
 

2052 stub -- branched off to an unknown date
2038 stub -- branched off to 2053
2028 stub -- branched off to 2032

Flynne created a stub off the 2028 stub universe, but before 2032 (which was Flynne's "now")

[AuntieMame]

I’m still trying to watch the entire episode in detail. I’ve been busy and I keep watching in bed and falling asleep at different points. But between reading all of your replies, my own disjointed watch and being familiar with Gibson’s work generally, I’m inclined to say that the show writers were a bit starstruck working on a Gibson novel and because of that didn’t feel entitled to overcome the problems in the source material which encompass execution generally and lack of detail in the concepts. It sounds like the problems in Gibson’s work have transferred pretty much wholesale to the series. Which is disappointing because I was liking this more than I expected when I decided to try it. 
 
Cyberpunk is often basically fantasy with future technology standing in for magic but with a gloss of “this could really happen because it’s all techy and sciency and stuff.” The base philosophy of cyberpunk is that we won’t really have to solve our material and ethical issues because technology will ultimately make the body and material reality redundant and passé. As this isn’t technically feasible and arguably not ethically or humanly desirable, cyberpunk tends to fall apart under scrutiny. Because none of the conflicts of these ideas are ever really examined and even arresting characters need more than abracadabra isn’t this cool to make good fiction.

[peach]

I am still flummoxed by what the show creators are doing.

I mean...what?  So ends this stub?  It's still there, Flynne just got killed out of it.  The rest of them are still alive.  So, does this mean they have no plans to go back and tell us what happens to them, all left on the brink of peril? They did such a good job of developing these characters that, yes, I want to know what happens now to Tommy and Jasper and Billy Ann and Corbell and Burton.

Speaking of Burton, he would likely immediately go back to the future and start f**king shit up with gusto.  He is still a threat.  Dee Dee has a sample of Flynne's bacteria.  There's no reason to believe Cherise wouldn't still nuke the place, if just out of spite.  And is Connor supposed to tell Burton the truth??  Then what?  Etc etc

Meanwhile, Flynne has made a new undisturbed timeline, but Lowbeer told her in the original timeline, Burton dies.  

I guess the theme is rebooting like a video game, but I'm not watching a video game, I'm watching a story about people..  Wasn't Flynne''s point that it's not a game?

[shrewd.buddha]

"So many questions answered. "

.... what show was she watching? 

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

"So many questions answered. "

.... what show was she watching? 

THIS X 1000.

1 hour ago, peach said:

Meanwhile, Flynne has made a new undisturbed timeline, but Lowbeer told her in the original timeline, Burton dies.  

She started the new stub in 2028, which is when the boys are fighting in Texas, so presumably she thinks she'll be able to save Burton.  But again, it's in a stub, so I don't know how that would matter.

[AuntieMame]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

"So many questions answered. "

.... what show was she watching? 

More like whose ass is she kissing? 

 Or “No questions answered and many more ridiculous questions created.” 

[chaifan]

14 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

"So many questions answered. "

.... what show was she watching? 

Lost.  She obviously got this show confused with the final episode of Lost.  (Sorry, my hate and bitterness for all my time wasted on that show still hasn't gone away in over a decade.)

I can't say I hated this show, because I did stick with it for 8 episodes.  But would I recommend it to anyone?  Nope.  I just don't feel like it told a good story.  If you have to read the source material to understand what's going on in the show, the writers aren't doing their jobs.  And the big problem I have with stubs/alternate universes, is there's no consequence as to what happens to a character from a viewer perspective.  It doesn't really matter if they live or die, because we'll just see them in another stub/universe.  As others have said, "so ends this stub" is stupid, because it doesn't end, Flynn just isn't in it anymore.  Do I care what happens to that stub's other characters?  No, not really, because they'll have different experiences in the next stub.  But because of that, I won't care what happens to those characters, either.  There's the cycle, and there's where they lose me.  If there was a bigger end game, like go back to the original timeline, prevent the Jackpot and therefore the creation of all stubs, then that might get me to stick around.  But it seems like there's just an endless creation of stubs.  Flynn kills Cherise in her new stub, so what?  Cherise still exists in Flynn's original timeline, and all other stubs.  What's the point?

[xaxat]

On 12/4/2022 at 7:05 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

"So many questions answered. "

.... what show was she watching? 

As a producer on the show,she was watching a show that she had intimate knowledge of the source material all of the directors and all of the discussions in the writer's room. It reminds me of the time that Christopher Nolan used a whiteboard to explain

Spoiler

the time travel shenanigans in his movie Tenet. He clearly thought a hell of a lot more than people in a movie theater possibly could.

Their familiarity of the subject blinds them to the fact that the content is super dense and confusing to the viewers. And in this case, they occasionally dropped scenes where they may know where it is headed in season 2, but the viewer is left asking questions like "Oh, yeah, Lev has a wife who might have her own motives.", and "What the hell was fight tower all about?"

Edited December 10, 2022 by xaxat

[Notwisconsin]

Actually, there are millions of stubs created every second whenever a living being makes a decision. However, all but two of three, who have a communication link with the main sequence, are entirely invisible.

[CaptainE]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:23 AM, Notwisconsin said:

Actually, there are millions of stubs created every second whenever a living being makes a decision. However, all but two of three, who have a communication link with the main sequence, are entirely invisible.

Is this from the book?  I have the audiobook but it’s almost as full of holes as the show.

[Notwisconsin]

16 hours ago, CaptainE said:

Is this from the book?  I have the audiobook but it’s almost as full of holes as the show.

nope. It's from zillions of other books and TV shows.

[CaptainE]

23 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

nope. It's from zillions of other books and TV shows.

Ok, I haven’t heard of all but two or three being invisible.  Interesting.

[Notwisconsin]

18 hours ago, CaptainE said:

Ok, I haven’t heard of all but two or three being invisible.  Interesting.

Them being invisible, you doubtless wouldn't. I recommend "His Dark Materials" and "Sliders."

[dwmarch]

Here's an ending explained video that lays out the plot nicely and almost makes it make sense (although there is some speculation at the end):

(there are no book spoilers in the video, just a mention that this show is based on the book)

[Catfi9ht]

I started watching this series because of JJ Feild because the commercials I watched made it look unremarkable even though I love sci-fi. Overall, I thought it was okay. I thought the acting, costuming, hair and makeup, and special effects were excellent. The episodic plots were fairly good, but the overarching series plot wasn't put together very well (as others have pointed out). Will I watch season 2? Eventually, I'm sure since I like everyone in the show. Is it a must-watch for me? Absolutely not.

I've thought about this ending since I finished the show and watched the YT video linked above. I didn't really miss anything except one thing, but it didn't have anything to do with the finale. However, the recaps got my brain thinking, and I think I was able to put together Flynne's plan, and the more I think about it, the more it doesn't make sense.

 From what we've seen in the show, using the headset is a consciousness transfer, not a copy. TV timeline Flynne transfers her consciousness to an alternate Flynne's body who was using the headset at the time. This means Alt Flynne's consciousness was in her peripheral in London at the time (or Burton's if it's early enough in the events). While TV Flynne is in the Alt timeline, she tells someone what happened (presumably Burton or her mom). My guess is on the mom because she doesn't trust Burton to make "hard choices", and in the episode with Bob in the Urgent Care, we've seen that the mom can make those hard choices. Then TV Flynne transfers back to her original body and asks Connor to kill her. 

Asking Connor to kill her with her consciousness in it is where I think her plan isn't great. Simply telling someone what happened isn't nearly as the same as experiencing the events. It's not really possible to transfer all the relevant information needed in the time length that was shown. What if Alt Flynne or Alt Mom or Alt Burton is different enough to where they won't make the same choices as TV Flynne and her timeline gang? What if they don't get as far in the events or alter the events enough to where they're killed anyway? The better (and crueler) thing in my mind is to have Connor kill Flynne while she's in the chair and her consciousness is in the Alt timeline so she can't get home. Then stage the murder so it looked like her consciousness was in her body at the time. 

I think the point of showing Det Lowbeer one last time was to show the new Flynne, which acted kind of scared when she popped into that peripheral. This also means that TV Flynne visitied Alt Lowbeer and filled her in. In that same scene, Alt Flynne was scared but Alt Lowbeer was already aware of the plan. Ugh. The more I think about it, the sillier it becomes in my mind. 

Since Flynne was set on getting her consciousness back into her original body, I'm hoping she visited every possible timeline she could. Building "an army" of timelines trying for the same end goal would more likely stack the odds in her favor of winning. But she didn't really win in the end, she died. I still think they should have left her consciousness in an alt timeline. That makes the most sense to me strategically.

ETA: Plus, the army of timelines is a better revenge story. "Hi. You've never met this me. You tried to kill me and my family in my timeline so I'm going to kill you in every timeline in existence."

Edited April 30, 2023 by Catfi9ht
Added one final thought