Mary and Edith, Edith and Mary

[ZoloftBlob]

You rarely see arguments that Mary brings on her misfortunes as in no one ever claims that Mary 'deserved' Pamuk dying in her bed because she was so 'reckless' (she didn't). In fact rather than saying that she 'deserved' any ensuing scandal (she didn't) because of her 'recklessness', it's usually claimed everything is all Edith's fault as though Mary's actual actions did not happen which could cause scandal that never materialized in any substantive fashion anyway (and which we know was gossiped about in servant circles separately).

 

I can't believe I am about to defend Mary but...

 

Mary didn't actually initiate the Pamuk incident. Yes she was flirty with him but she did not invite him into her room for sex. In fact she was fairly appalled at first, and he was just a touch threatening - pointing out that if she called for assistance that she was pretty well screwed  whether she had sex with him or not - if she called for help, she would still be blamed for having a man in her room and considered without virtue. An arguement can be made that Kamal forced her to submit - it was better for her in the long run to shut her mouth and let him have sex with her than it was to call for help. I will easily grant that she clearly got past her dislike of the idea, but its not fair to compare Mary being propositioned for sex in her own bedroom by a guy who is pretty clearly using intimdation and who she didn't actually invite to Edith openly going out to have sex with a married man.

 

On several levels, Edith having sex with Michael was reckless but unlike Mary, it was her choice to make. If Mary had called for help with Kamal, she'd still be considered ruined. She didn't ask Kamal to come to her room and had the evening ended with everyone going to sleep, nothing about her behavior with Kamal during the evening would have been considered *unvirtuous*, while Edith going out to dine with a married man would have caused Robert to possibly blow a gasket if he knew about it, let alone the whole sex thing.

 

[shipperx]

I hesitate to not count it as reckless choice on Mary's part rather than pure imposition if not outright rape on Pamuk's part because in Mary's own words, when describing it to Matthew, she described it as her own desire, boredom, and recklessness.

Certainly, I can understand the argument that Mary would not be of a time when she would think in terms of sexual harassment and thus not articulate it as such, while she does live in a time where women tended to blame these things on themselves. All that said, however, the only information we really have is Mary's words, and in my memory she's only ever spoken of it in terms of her own curiosity, desire, and general boredom with her life.

I can totally sympathize with extrapolating events on circumstantial evidence and reaching a more disturbing conclusion, but I mentally tend to categorize that more as fanon (though perfectly reasonable fanon), because in canonical terms, Mary's description was in terms of desirous choice and experimentation.

All that said, the initial comment was that Mary did not deserve fall-out or public censure. She did not 'deserve' the world to fall down around her. She didn't deserve Pamuk dropping dead on her as karmic punishment for premarital sex.

Edited November 6, 2014 by shipperx

[ZoloftBlob]

But I am not extrapolating.

 

Mary didn't invite him to her room. She went to bed that with no expectation that she was really setting up a hot date. She was surprised when he entered the room. Now, was she ultimately *pleasantly surprised* that he wanted her? Sure. But she didn't initiate the sex, or plan for the sex or even really want the sex until he showed up in her bedroom and refused to leave without making a scene.

 

To me, thats a much different situation than say, intentionally going out with a married man on a date and having sex.

[shipperx]

Again, I'm completely sympathetic with your description of the scene. There's a great deal that is disturbing about it.

Mary's recount of it framed it in different words, and I was taking Mary's description of it {as she gave it to Matthew} for my example.

However reckless she and the script(of her description) framed it, it did not mean that she 'deserved' the fallout the story hounded her with. And few -- virtually no viewer I know of--ever imply she deserved misery because of it. (Or for snogging the bridegroom on the eve of his wedding while the bride was dying of influenza upstairs)

Edited November 6, 2014 by shipperx

[DeepRunner]

In the end, Mary is who she is as a character. Fellowes has written her a certain way, and he shows an amazing lack of conviction in maintaining her as a liked member of the story. She was interesting in S1, humane in S2, an entitled Countess-to-Be in S3, and since then has lumbered back toward where she is now. 

As I read the various episode recaps online, it seems that more reviewers find her more of a canine than Isis. Violet was right about how unbecoming a lack of compassion is.

[Avaleigh]

I never understand the arguments I've occasionally seen where Edith saying 'my life's project' brought on her being jilted much less in any way earned it.

 

 

I've always maintained that Anthony Strallan is to blame for Edith being jilted. I've also said that I think her declaration to him that she wanted to make him her life's project was a large part of what put a damper on the whole thing for him. I thought it seemed like he decided that she'd be wasting herself on him if she thought of it that way and he tells her that she'll be wasting herself as he's jilting her. When somebody is on the receiving end of a break up, whether they were at fault or not they at least go through the possibilities and consider what they might have done differently and Edith doesn't seem as though she examines her own behavior when something unfortunate happens in her life. I'm not blaming Edith for being jilted, I just think it would be good for her to examine some of her own behavior as well when she's feeling hurt over something. I feel like there's this tendency to blame everyone else for Edith's problems or that her family are to blame for nearly everything that has gone wrong in her life and I've always disagreed with this when it's stated as though it's a fact that Edith has always been treated horribly by her family or horribly in comparison with Mary. 

 

And it's not like birth control was super easy to come by for a thirty year old unmarried virgin.. Think Mary had any with Pamuk? Doubtful.

 

 

I'm not sure how her age is relevant but she could have asked Michael to get some. She found an abortionist all on her own, I don't think it would have been impossible for her to purchase something in London without disgracing herself. She'd been seeing Michael for awhile at that point so it isn't as though she didn't have time to plan something. In Mary's case she had no idea that Pamuk would force his way into her room. Mary had no idea that she'd be having sex so I don't know how fair it is to compare the situations since they were so different. 

 

You rarely see arguments that Mary brings on her misfortunes as in no one ever claims that Mary 'deserved' Pamuk dying in her bed because she was so 'reckless' (she didn't).

 

 

Mary wasn't reckless here IMO. Pamuk forced his way into her room and wouldn't leave when she asked him to more than once. If she'd screamed for help her reputation would have been immediately compromised and that would have been that.

 

And yet... somehow bad things which happen to Edith seem to be discounted as divine judgement over her being unhappy or desperate or generally less fabulous than everyone else.

 

 

This isn't what it is for me. What I agree with is the idea that Edith has a history of engaging in objectionable or questionable behavior and then acting sad and surprised when there are consequences for said behavior. 

 

In the earlier episodes there were small things that revealed bits about Edith's character. She'd read Mary's private correspondence, she'd be kind of snotty asking Mary if she reads the papers and then quickly has the sad face when Mary shoots back that she's too busy living her life. At the flower show it was Edith deliberately irritating about Matthew with Mary again shooting back. Cue Edith's sad face. Edith is happy to have her job on the farm but loses it because of her choice to get involved with the married farmer. Edith acts all sad and surprised that the farmer's wife doesn't want her over there anymore. Edith is sad that Matthew isn't supportive of the idea of her carrying on a relationship with the married Michael Gregson. We've discussed much of what happened in the fifth season already but basically I feel that Edith's choices were a large part of her unhappiness

with regard to the Marigold situation.

 

Even when Edith finally tells Strallan years later that what Mary said to him to keep him from asking her to marry him, I got the impression that Edith thought it was simply about Mary trying to spite her as opposed to Mary flat out retaliating after she'd been so hurt by Edith. Edith didn't seem to understand that she'd had a hand in screwing up her relationship with Strallan the first time around. It's like it doesn't even occur to her that if she hadn't been so spiteful herself that maybe she wouldn't have had somebody who wanted to hurt her back.

 

which is to say I don't think the Crawley family's dynamics begin with the airing of Episode 1.

 

 

The first season establishes the family dynamic and gives us an idea of how life might have been like for the characters prior to the start of the show. There are multiple points this season where Mary is on the receiving end of her parents criticism. And it isn't as though all of the criticism of Mary happened one on one where Edith wouldn't have been around for it. There's a notable moment of Edith smirking after Robert makes it plain at the breakfast table that he's unhappy with Mary and her attitude. I don't recall Robert getting testy with Edith during the first season at all. Robert even singled out Mary for criticism for her part in the silly competing with Edith over Strallan. It's moments like these that don't give me the impression of a childhood where Mary was fawned over and praised while Edith was ignored. I think the girls were probably praised when they did something praiseworthy and criticized if they did something their parents felt was out of line. I also don't recall Cora and Mary having a relationship that was any closer than Cora and Edith's. 

 

We've seen how Robert is around the grandkids and I doubt he was a super involved father. I imagine Cora being a bit more hands on but I still think that Mary, Edith, and Sybil would have spent the bulk of their time with their nanny and governess. It's hard to imagine Edith being any more ignored in this sort of environment than Mary and Sybil were. This actually makes me think of Carson talking about how when Mary was a child of maybe six or so she tells him that she wants to runaway and asks him if she can have any of the silver to sell. I doubt at all that Mary was seriously unhappy and am sure she was just being dramatic after something trivial but this vignette doesn't exactly give me the impression of a child that was nothing but praised and fawned over while Edith was ignored. I'm sure that Robert and Cora tried to be fair but also natural in their treatment of their children.

 

I can't recall any evidence from the show to indicate that Edith was ignored as a child. Not one story or recollection of hers where she was treated unfairly while Mary and Sybil were constantly flattered and singled out. All of the grievances that I've seen or heard about from Edith have come from things that have happened to them as adults. I get the impression that Mary and Edith never got on particularly well in childhood but the big differences and conflicts came after they made their debuts in society. I think this is the period that ended up causing longterm resentment on Edith's side because Edith not having a terribly successful debut (e.g. not catching any suitors) indirectly lead to a bunch of other things.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Avaleigh

[ZoloftBlob]

There's a notable moment of Edith smirking after Robert makes it plain at the breakfast table that he's unhappy with Mary and her attitude. I don't recall Robert getting testy with Edith during the first season at all. Robert even singled out Mary for criticism for her part in the silly competing with Edith over Strallan.

 

I think the problem is that Robert's criticism of Mary over competing with Edith over Strallan was never actually directed to Mary. Likewise Robert never really harshly chides Mary for her attitude over Patrick and is generally non committal when Mary is bluntly being a rude bitch to guests - thinking specifically here of the dinner party where she's going on about the sea monster, openly insulting Matthew and her father, and Robert doesn't say boo. When it comes to Crawley family dynamics, Mary would have been a nicer person all around if Robert made his criticisms known instead of muttering them to Cora.

 

Edith in contrast is pretty openly criticized and she is hounded by the problem of low expectations. Robert really expects nothing from her, when she does work, he's critical of it. No one ever makes any effort to see her married off... meanwhile everyone is dancing around Mary, begging her to consider Matthew and yet no one ever even suggests shoving Edith at him. So I do think there's a dynamic where Mary is the special one who is catered to while Edith and Sybil make do with the leftovers. Frankly, the fact that Sybil was perfectly willing to walk away from the family is kind of telling.

 

That said, I get what you're saying - Strallan was wrong to let the wedding plans go to his leaving Edith at the altar - but there were some big clues, including Robert telling Strallan to dump her... and Strallan doing it... and Strallan's increasing discomfort with the age/crippling factor. Likewise with the farmer and the farmer's wife - I feel bad for Edith since I think it was more hormones and someone treating her nicely but really... aw, you were seducing the man in front of his wife and now you're out of a job because the wife got pissed..... come on. Have a *little* self awareness, Edith.

[Avaleigh]

When it comes to Crawley family dynamics, Mary would have been a nicer person all around if Robert made his criticisms known instead of muttering them to Cora.

 

 

Oh, I definitely think this is true. 

 

The reason though I brought up the moment where Robert mutters the criticism about Mary to Cora is because I thought it demonstrated how her parents view Mary and that they actually do see her flaws so it makes me imagine that growing up for the girls likely wasn't all about Mary receiving endless praise while Edith got none. I think they're all well aware of Mary's flaws just as they are of Edith's.

 

Sybil of course wasn't really written as having any flaws. 

[kpw801]

...Frankly, the fact that Sybil was perfectly willing to walk away from the family is kind of telling.

 

 

ITA.  I remember when Gwen and Sybil were late getting back from her interview because the horse was lame, Sybil inquired if Anna would tattle and Gwen confidently said, "Anna would never betray me.  She's like a sister."  Sybil said, "Not like my sisters."  She saw how Mary and Edith interacted.

 

BTW it just occurred to me Mary's name means bitterness.  Sibyl's name means prophetess.  Edith's name means - get this - Blessed!  How strange.

[saki]

For me, it's not that I dislike Mary because she is a bitch - though she is - it's also that I find her really boring and, in particular, I'm tired of the dynamic between her and Edith.  Mary isn't especially witty or funny and there's no suspense in her storylines because we all know how they will work out.  Back in season 1, there was some suspense, I genuinely thought it was possible that Matthew would marry Sybil and Mary would have to swallow her disappointment.  Now, there is no suspense - every man who comes near her falls in love with her, even though there are other attractive women (even if you don't think Edith is pretty, there is Rose who is undeniably attractive as well as much younger) around, you know that whatever potential disaster of the week looms, there will always be a deus ex machina to make sure that nothing bad ever happens for her.  In the same way, there is no suspense about Edith either - we know that, every now and then, it will look like she might be happy for a bit and then it will go catastrophically wrong.

 

It doesn't help that I think MD's portrayal has gone downhill.  I felt, back at the beginning of the show, there was more depth to her portrayal of Mary.  She played Mary as a bit more like the Dowager - sometimes saying mean things but, deep down, a compassionate person.  That's all gone now and we're left with the iceberg.

[kpw801]

I've always maintained that Anthony Strallan is to blame for Edith being jilted. I've also said that I think her declaration to him that she wanted to make him her life's project was a large part of what put a damper on the whole thing for him. I thought it seemed like he decided that she'd be wasting herself on him if she thought of it that way and he tells her that she'll be wasting herself as he's jilting her. When somebody is on the receiving end of a break up, whether they were at fault or not they at least go through the possibilities and consider what they might have done differently and Edith doesn't seem as though she examines her own behavior when something unfortunate happens in her life. I'm not blaming Edith for being jilted, I just think it would be good for her to examine some of her own behavior as well when she's feeling hurt over something. I feel like there's this tendency to blame everyone else for Edith's problems or that her family are to blame for nearly everything that has gone wrong in her life and I've always disagreed with this when it's stated as though it's a fact that Edith has always been treated horribly by her family or horribly in comparison with Mary. 

 

 

I'm not sure how her age is relevant but she could have asked Michael to get some. She found an abortionist all on her own, I don't think it would have been impossible for her to purchase something in London without disgracing herself.

 

I don't think she was "planning" to go to bed with him the night they did.  She was talking about a new band at the Lotus club and she thought they were going out.  It was Michael who pushed the envelope and she made herself vulnerable by constantly going to his apartment alone.  It wasn't like in the country when she went to Strallan's house.  There were servants everywhere.  She was careless with Gregson.

 

She'd been seeing Michael for awhile at that point so it isn't as though she didn't have time to plan something.

 

The only thing Edith has ever done is kiss.  I don't think she had planned for anything to happen.  That is usually how you get pregnant the first time.  You get caught up in the moment.  You'd better believe after this, if she ever starts dating again, she won't be so careless.

 

Even when Edith finally tells Strallan years later that what Mary said to him to keep him from asking her to marry him, I got the impression that Edith thought it was simply about Mary trying to spite her as opposed to Mary flat out retaliating after she'd been so hurt by Edith. Edith didn't seem to understand that she'd had a hand in screwing up her relationship with Strallan the first time around.

 

That I agree with.  Edith started the spitefest when she wrote that terrible letter to the Turkish counsel.  But Mary brought that about in a way because she deliberately hurt Edith by throwing what Matthew said about her up in her face and humiliating her at the party.  She had no way of knowing that Edith overheard those hurtful things said by Mary and her mother - Edith has no advantages.  They were both spiteful but I fault Mary more because she knew an older lonely widower was probably Edith's only hope and she ruined it for her!

 

I was glad Matthew broke up with her then and I agreed with Mrs. Hughes that Matthew moving on was good for her.  I softened up in time but I think Mary was more at fault here.

 

Also Edith's less than stellar debut could possibly have had something to do with the fact that her more socially adept sparkly sister was at every event.

 

It's like it doesn't even occur to her that if she hadn't been so spiteful herself that maybe she wouldn't have had somebody who wanted to hurt her back.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2014 by kpw801

[Avaleigh]

Frankly, the fact that Sybil was perfectly willing to walk away from the family is kind of telling.

 

 

I don't know, when Mary and Sybil catch up to Tom and Sybil when they were going to elope, Sybil quickly sees that what she and Tom are trying to do by running away isn't right and admits that she loves her parents and that they haven't done anything to her to be treated in the way that Sybil was about to treat them. I definitely didn't get the impression that Sybil felt like she was getting the leftovers of attention or that her parents were unloving and neglectful. 

[ZoloftBlob]

I don't know, when Mary and Sybil catch up to Tom and Sybil when they were going to elope, Sybil quickly sees that what she and Tom are trying to do by running away isn't right and admits that she loves her parents and that they haven't done anything to her to be treated in the way that Sybil was about to treat them. I definitely didn't get the impression that Sybil felt like she was getting the leftovers of attention or that her parents were unloving and neglectful.

 

Well, I didn't mean it that harshly, that she hates the family or feels abused - but Sybil did leave the family and move to a completely different country rather than stay. Unlike Mary and Edith, she was willing to opt out of the Downton lifestyle in order to be happy and she wasn't so held by all the love that she wouldn't leave. No one really seemed to understand her or what she wanted to do so she left to be happy, rather than join her sisters in misery.

 

Also, like Edith although for possibly different reasons, there were never any expectations by Robert, Cora, Violet, that Sybil would be anything other than in Mary's shadow - Sybil was never considered to save the family. Mary is the one Robert wants to inherit the estate, while Sybil, like Edith, is just an extra girl. I've said this before, of the three daughters, she was the obvious choice to fling at Matthew - her age would have made little difference, it would have just meant waiting, and it never crossed anyone's mind.

 

Sybil saw the handwriting on the wall - no one really cared who *she* married so she went with the guy who actually loved her.

Edited November 8, 2014 by ZoloftBlob

[Tetraneutron]

I've thought about it, and I think the difference between the two is Mary wants everything, and tries to get it, and usually does. She plays every advantage and she doesn't take people's shit. Edith wants things in a vague sort of way, has no high expectations for herself, and lets herself get pushed around by circumstance. Sure, Mary is kind of a bitch to Edith, but she gets things done. And it's not like she's entirely horrible. She's loyal to Anna, saved Bates from death at personal risk, knows the kitchenmaid's name, and was able to extricate Jack Ross from Rose without any hard feelings. I can't help but be more drawn to that character. And outside their relationship to each other, I don't see Edith as a nicer person in general.

She treated the Drewes pretty badly. Edith doesn't even have the social skills to retain the goodwill of people helping her out. Mrs Drewe felt she was badly treated, and she lost a friend and ally in Mr. Drewe because of how badly she bungled that situation.

Partly it's the fact that Edith is ridiculously, comically, unlucky. Partly it's the fact that the writing never explores avenues that might get Mary in trouble. But still. Edith just floats around and lets things happen to her.  Her father's a Peer. She could at least have tried to get Gregson a divorce in England. She could have made her intentions clear about him to her family. Robert's a lost cause, but she could have gotten the rest of the family on board. I'd feel more sympathetic to her if she didn't mess everything up.

 

Maybe it's also that the show is unclear on what Edith wants out of life. Mary wants to continue the Crawley estate and be mistress of it, run the town, and have a happy marriage. Sybil wanted to work a real job and be middle-class and politically active. What does Edith want? Does she want to marry any landowner that will have her so she has a place in Society? Does she want to be a modern woman in London and run the magazine or publishing house or whatever it is? Does she have business goals? Does she want to marry for love? Would she be happy if she didn't have a place in the community at Downton?

And what does she want for Marigold? To have a solid position? To know about her father? To see George and Sybbie as cousins?

Since the audience doesn't know these things, and it seems to change from episode to episode, it's harder to get behind Edith. How can you get invested in a character triumphing when you don't even know what that means?

[saki]

I do agree with Obviously that it's been tremendously unclear what it is that Edith really wants out of life.  I disagree, though, that Edith isn't the nicer person.  She's not perfect (i.e. not Sybil or Anna levels of nice) but the clincher for me was WW1 - Mary was appalling in that season, the only thing she does for the war effort is sing in a concert after complaining bitterly about being asked to.  She wanders around being annoyed at how inconvenient it is that the war has disrupted her lovely life.  It's just awful.  Even characters like Violet and Cora, who are fairly wrapped up in themselves generally, understood that the war wasn't all about them.  Edith, on the other hand, is capable of being sympathetic and understanding.  She did what she could to make the soldiers comfortable without bitching about the inconvenience to herself.

 

Mary just has such a narrow world view - I don't think she understands at all that people might care about anything other than her and/or Downton.  In particular, I rolled my eyes at the scene where she tries to show her American grandmother how important Downton is by throwing a dinner for the county and wearing a nice dress - because, obviously, once her grandmother sees that nice dinners in a big house with Mary being important are stake she'll want to save Downton!  Similarly, the scene where she thinks that Isobel must obviously look up to Violet because Violet is a Dowager Countess and everything, she's known Isobel for over a decade at this point and hasn't noticed that Isobel doesn't care about that kind of thing...

 

Edith's characterisation has suffered a lot, I think, from Sybil's death - I think Fellowes has tried to give her storylines that showcase the 'modern world' that he would otherwise have given Sybil - and from the perceived need to keep the show centred at Downton.  It's been uneven and confusing - she loves Anthony!  she loves a farmer!  she drives a tractor!  she writes a column!  she's a suffragette!  she is how we know about Nazism!  But I still like her a lot more than I like Mary.

 

I guess, in a way, you could summarise it by saying that Mary has been shown with more one-off acts of kindness towards individuals connected to Downton (like William or Anna) but Edith has been shown to see the wider world outside Downton much more and to be much kinder towards people that are outside that world (like the wounded soldiers).  It's obviously personal preference how you feel about that but, for me, the person with the broader world view is always more interesting and rootable for.

Edited November 10, 2014 by saki

[gator12]

Edith hasn't been shown being nicer to anyone that isn't outside of her social class. She just used them and act like they don't have emotion because only her feeling matters. I guess you could say she's been shown outside of Downton but she doesn't care about anyone else that doesn't share her social status

[saki]

Largely, Edith just hasn't had many scenes with anyone not in her social class, though.  I don't think 

apart from the Drewes

, she is shown to be particularly mean to anyone either though.  And Mary is really only kind to the servants when it doesn't get in the way of what she wants - 

she couldn't care less about Anna's discomfort with the contraception

.

For me, the WW1 stuff from Mary was just so awful that I don't think it's really possible for me to ever like the character.  I understand that others feel differently,

[shipperx]

It isn't just that Edith has not desired role though. It's that society has no real role for her. She isn't a wife (which was the 'job' she was raised for. She's not the heir and is never going to be the heir. She isn't supposed to work outside the home because she's wealthy and she's not supposed to do that sort of thing either. And when she does she's told by her father that it's only to make a fool of her and that it's only due to her title. One of the problems with the social constraints at that time is that it really had no role for a middle to upper class unmarried woman of a certain age. (Unfortunately the lower and servant classes never have the option of wondering what they want. They have to do whatever is necessary to live). But if Edith is hazy on what course she would like it's mostly a byproduct of her failing the one set out for her (society wife) and having few other options really accepted for her.

Sybil is an exception to prove the rule. Sybil was not conventional and did not want conventional. Sybil was intended as a rebel. That was what was unique about her.

The thing with Edith is that she is not trying to lead an unconventional life. It's that convention has not been working out for her, so despite her desire to just be what she was supposed to be she finds herself a bit of a rebel despite herself. It's a growing process.

Edited November 10, 2014 by shipperx

[jellywager]

I can't stand Mary and her accent grates. Can we please have a storyline where Mary finally thinks someone is worthy of her and he falls for Edith? How gross that Anna has to hold on to Mary's USED birth control. Anna should put some pinpricks in it to give Mary some upcomings. Mary seems to only care about herself. 

[Avaleigh]

Absolutely, it's how some siblings behave.  Then they grow up.  Or at least don't feel compelled to have public verbal meltdowns, and of course, that applies to both Mary and Edith.  Grow the hell up is how I feel every time they start their petty crap. They both look bad and make others feel uncomfortable, and are poor role models for children, if the children are ever around.  Which they aren't, much.

I appreciate it when people see how similar Mary and Edith are to each other because I completely agree. It frustrates me no end when we see Edith engaging in exactly the sort of behavior that we see from Mary but then Edith is given a pass because of the tired excuse that she's supposedly ignored by her family and that they don't show their love for her or care about her. People say that proof is in the fact that Edith isn't married (this is somehow entirely the fault of Robert and Violet as opposed to being the fault of the man who dumped her at the altar) and because they don't do things like going into some level of mourning for the boyfriend that they aren't even sure was a boyfriend and has been gone for years.

 

Edith is the one who has saddled herself with unflattering labels. Edith is the one who refers to herself as always being a failure. Edith is the one who calls herself a spinster. Edith is the one who agrees that she always ruins everything. 

 

When it comes to the immature fighting between Edith and Mary, there is a claim that Edith has grown beyond it and is over the fighting with Mary but I haven't seen that being the case at all when we've seen Edith deliberately find some way to go after Mary in every single season. Season 3 Edith was on her best behavior but it was still there. Seasons 4 and 5 definitely. 

 

Edith didn't have to turn Mary's haircut into a fight. She chose to because she wanted attention and she was angry with the family for not being upset enough over Gregson. She could have excused herself without getting into it. She could have left it at "No, not especially" after Mary asked her if she disapproved. That would have been chilly without being extra but Edith had to have the moment of making a scene and storming off just as Mary had in season 4. 

 

In some ways their sniping bothers me and in other ways it amuses me. It depends on the scene. The haircut scene was an example where I wish they'd both given it a rest though, Mary in particular.

[ZoloftBlob]

In some ways their sniping bothers me and in other ways it amuses me. It depends on the scene. The haircut scene was an example where I wish they'd both given it a rest though, Mary in particular.

 

I thought the haircut scene was out of line for Mary simply because , good god, it was a fucking haircut versus as far as the family is concerned, a friend of Edith's being announced as dead. Yes, anyone with a brain including Edith knew that Gregson was dead but... it was a fucking *haircut*. I mean really. And Edith wasn't asking for full on mourning, she just wanted a couple of days where everyone around her wasn't having a gleeful good time. It's about having a smidge of empathy and Mary failed this test.

 

That doesn't mean I don't otherwise agree with Avaleigh, Edith does make the vast majority of her problems and her family isn't generally a band of monsters or the Griffins from Family Guy, bent on making Edith miserable. Hell, this recent episode even had an example of Tom just about begging her to tell him what was wrong and let him help her.  Mary is a bit of a lost cause, but Tom, Cora and yes, even Robert still seem concerned and caring about her.

[Tetraneutron]

Seriously. Robert was way way harder on Sybil than he ever was on Edith. He barely let her be a nurse, he was really mean to her her husband initially, and he hit the roof when she wore pants to dinner. Compare that to how he treats Edith. He's concerned that Strallan isn't good enough for her; even though she has no one else he doesn't push it.

When he discovers she has a child out of wedlock, pretty much the worst thing that could happen to her in that world, he's calm and understanding and believes Gregson would have married her given the opportunity, and considers Marigold his grandchild.

Yes, he was an ass about her getting the column and about Gregson initially, but she could have pushed for it instead of moping and being defeated like she always is. Edith's problem isn't her parents. It's her.

 

 

Edith didn't have to turn Mary's haircut into a fight. She chose to because she wanted attention and she was angry with the family for not being upset enough over Gregson. She could have excused herself without getting into it.

I didn't see it as Edith looking for a pity party. I thought she was genuinely devastated over Gregson and when Mary pushed her buttons she fell into old patterns. Yes, Mary was being an ass but why does Edith let it bother her still? The difference between the two of them is she wasn't in control of her emotions. She never is, look at her with the Drewes. Meanwhile Mary is always collected. She's always in control. And that's Edith's problem and the entire crux of their relationship.

 

Of course, the big problem with all of this is why the HELL is Edith still at Downton? There's nothing for her. Gregson gave her power of attorney so she effectively runs the magazine, she has a job in London, a place, things to do, and enough money to take care of Marigold and be comfortable. Meanwhile, at Downton she has nothing. It's a world that revolves around house parties where no one notices her and her daughter being the weird adopted kid hanging around with the family. It's getting ridiculous.

[madfortv]

You have to look at the show in the context of the times in which it is supposed to be set.  The writer in this fictional story appears to be trying to have his cake and eat it too. So he touches on taboo topics giving them a more modern twist but stops short of going completely in the direction of how it would evolve in today's world. It would be much more satisfying if Edith openly defied convention, moved to London returning only to visit, and completely ignored Mary. They are are not friends and would not associate with each other if they were not related.

 

Edith is portrayed as being constrained by her upbringing frustrating those of us who want more for her.  Recently, I found out about some deep buried secrets in my own family.  An aunt had a child out of wedlock in the late 1940s. She was sent off to live with a relative for several months and the baby was never spoken about again until last year. Now I think I know why that aunt always had this air about her of unhappiness tinged with anger. She reminds me of Edith's charscter yet what happened to her was almost 25 years after the events in this story. The difference is that it looks like Edith will get to keep her child. Maybe the story is true to how the wealthy lived in those days.

 

Both Mary and Edith are wrong in how they treated each other in S1. The last two seasons, Mary continues to put down Edith. If Edith becomes rich because of the publishing company, will Mary begin to treat her with respect in order to get some of the money for Downton?  

[FredaDudleyWard]

I totally like Mary.  She is not afraid to be herself.  I don't think she's cold, just very controlled and I like it.  I like Mary as much as I enjoy dislike the hapless dimwit Edith.  I look forward to seeing what dumb thing Edith will do or say next just to watch Mary roll her eyes in disgust. hah!!  Love it!

[kathe5133]

Not sure where to put this since there isn't (nor should there be) a "Marigold" thread!  But, did they change the "actress" who plays Marigold?  I'm remembering a little girl with straight hair and bangs.  Now it's short and kind of curly, almost like she's not had her first haircut yet?  It's bugging me, but I may be misremembering.

[Tetraneutron]

So he touches on taboo topics giving them a more modern twist but stops short of going completely in the direction of how it would evolve in today's world. It would be much more satisfying if Edith openly defied convention, moved to London returning only to visit, and completely ignored Mary. They are are not friends and would not associate with each other if they were not related.

The reason they aren't doing that is the show is called Downton Abbey and all the action takes place at said Abbey. Moving Edith to London might make sense for the character but it would be writing Laura Carmichael off the show. Same reason Bates and Anna haven't moved to London to run their hotel, or why it took Tom forever to move to America, or why Daisy didn't take advantage of all the professional opportunities she got etc.

This is especially true for Edith, as the show would be pretty boring if the young only person at Downton was Mary. So they do this.

[ZoloftBlob]

Its actually unfortunate that they set the show in Yorkshire because jaunts to London would be more fun and easier if they were closer. 

[SusanSunflower]

I'm not sure how many episodes or years it was before we saw the outside of Beacon Place on U/D, besides the front and back door ... but they had so many people coming and going (as Rosmund and Strallen served in DA first years). I think that not only is it called DA, it is also largely shot on location at DA and environs, so to bring in Edith-in-London (even the present trips there, staying with Rosmund or at "the London House")  requires either more locations or sets and significant costs/logistics. God knows, imho, it would be worth it, but again it's not apparently within Fellowe's "vision"  (or writing skills). I had hoped that Tom/Bunting, Anna/John and even The Drewes would open the immediate environs a lot more than they did -- but that has little to do with Edith finding security in the relative anonymity of London, the biggest of big cities. 

Actually, development of Mary's extraordinary equestrian skills might have been used to show some sort of contrast between the girls -- if Edith had any similar hobby or passion... oh, wait, that column for, oh wait, that magazine/newspaper ... oh, yes, I remember now!  (seriously, a mine of potential character development). I've always been a little surprised the Isobel has taken so little interest in the depressed/withdrawn Edith, but then I said ages ago she would have been an obvious ally for fallen-woman/unwed-mother-Edith, so never mind. Isobel is elderly bachelor/widow magnet ... nuff said. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[stcroix]

Not sure where to put this since there isn't (nor should there be) a "Marigold" thread!  But, did they change the "actress" who plays Marigold?  I'm remembering a little girl with straight hair and bangs.  Now it's short and kind of curly, almost like she's not had her first haircut yet?  It's bugging me, but I may be misremembering.

Yes,  little Marigold was changed from a straight haired blue eyed child to a more curly haired brown eyed one.  I thought they were trying to find one who resembled Edith, but later on her father remarked that the child favored Gregson. 

[helenamonster]

I'm actually kind of stunned how drastically S5 changed my opinions of Mary and Edith. I still find Mary to be the Queen Bitch, but I'm so much more entertained by it now. And I've gone from blindly rooting for Edith's success to hoping that someone takes her out for a one-way trip into the woods asap.

[DeepRunner]

I'm actually kind of stunned how drastically S5 changed my opinions of Mary and Edith. I still find Mary to be the Queen Bitch, but I'm so much more entertained by it now. And I've gone from blindly rooting for Edith's success to hoping that someone takes her out for a one-way trip into the woods asap.

 

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

 

Sorry, I can't be entertained by a bully. There were times in S5 when Fellowes made Edith a very unlovable character (sorry, Mrs. Drewe, the kid is mine, don't miss the attachment, adios), but I attribute that to poor writing so that the spotlight of favor could shine on his favorite child. I think it genuinely surprised Fellowes that Edith could have such a devoted following at one time. Edith last year was less the Edith of S2-S4, and more the Mousy Whiny Edith of S1. Mary's disposal of Gillingham (with the assistance of her former triangle interest and now bestie, Blake) for being...ummm...an unlikely award-winning performer seemed more 21st Century than 1920's.

 

With the UK premiere of The Long and Winding End of the Abbey's Road coming in a few months, and this side of the pond in January, I am eager to see how Edith and Mary end up. Not everyone deserves a happy ending, but a happi-er ending for both would be nice.

[Hecate7]

I've thought about it, and I think the difference between the two is Mary wants everything, and tries to get it, and usually does. She plays every advantage and she doesn't take people's shit. Edith wants things in a vague sort of way, has no high expectations for herself, and lets herself get pushed around by circumstance. Sure, Mary is kind of a bitch to Edith, but she gets things done. And it's not like she's entirely horrible. She's loyal to Anna, saved Bates from death at personal risk, knows the kitchenmaid's name, and was able to extricate Jack Ross from Rose without any hard feelings. I can't help but be more drawn to that character. And outside their relationship to each other, I don't see Edith as a nicer person in general.

She treated the Drewes pretty badly. Edith doesn't even have the social skills to retain the goodwill of people helping her out. Mrs Drewe felt she was badly treated, and she lost a friend and ally in Mr. Drewe because of how badly she bungled that situation.

Partly it's the fact that Edith is ridiculously, comically, unlucky. Partly it's the fact that the writing never explores avenues that might get Mary in trouble. But still. Edith just floats around and lets things happen to her.  Her father's a Peer. She could at least have tried to get Gregson a divorce in England. She could have made her intentions clear about him to her family. Robert's a lost cause, but she could have gotten the rest of the family on board. I'd feel more sympathetic to her if she didn't mess everything up.

 

Maybe it's also that the show is unclear on what Edith wants out of life. Mary wants to continue the Crawley estate and be mistress of it, run the town, and have a happy marriage. Sybil wanted to work a real job and be middle-class and politically active. What does Edith want? Does she want to marry any landowner that will have her so she has a place in Society? Does she want to be a modern woman in London and run the magazine or publishing house or whatever it is? Does she have business goals? Does she want to marry for love? Would she be happy if she didn't have a place in the community at Downton?

And what does she want for Marigold? To have a solid position? To know about her father? To see George and Sybbie as cousins?

Since the audience doesn't know these things, and it seems to change from episode to episode, it's harder to get behind Edith. How can you get invested in a character triumphing when you don't even know what that means?

 

It seemed pretty clear to me that Edith wanted to marry for love, and didn't get to. She next made do with being a "useful spinster." For a time she really enjoyed helping with the soldiers. She was also keenly interested in farming, and not just faking it. If everything weren't already settled on Mary, and the house run by Mrs. Hughes, and Tom running the business side of it, I think Edith would have taken up those duties.

 

Edith has had no choice but to adapt to an older sister with a much stronger personality. She also had no choice but not to want Downton for herself--that would have been tantamount to wishing everybody else dead, and she's not really capable of that sort of cold-bloodedness. She did want Mary's fiance, the one who went down with the Titanic, but she was always expected to hang back and let Mary have first shot at everything. And because she was considered plain, not only did the family not bother with marrying her off, but they also allowed Mary to put Edith down and torment her all the time. The comment about "fishing without bait" was pretty low. Yes, Edith did an awful thing to Mary, but what Mary did to Edith was much worse. Strallan was the only really suitable marriage proposal that's been available to Edith. Mary was always going to have another chance to make a good marriage. Edith not so much, and Mary knew that.

[JudyObscure]

I think Fellowes took a very simplistic, and very male, path when he wrote the outline for Mary and Edith. Mary would be our star, we would all love her because he would cast someone he found beautiful in the role and in case we didn't have the good taste to appreciate her, he would make, her parents, the butler and every man who crossed her path, exclaim at the wonder of her countenance. In case we still didn't get it she would carry her self with a superior attitude that made it clear that she thought she was all that. Then to make extra sure we knew which one to admire, he cast the part of Edith with an actress who had a slightly big nose, dressed her in unflattering clothes, made her jealous and desperate for male attention in the first episodes and, to make absolutely sure we disliked her, had her send that letter.

I'm sure he's completely bewildered that some of us have great sympathy for Edith. He must be surprised when we don't chuckle with glee when Mary makes snobby remarks from the back of her literal high-horse. Some of us don't smile when she sticks the knife in Edith for the hundredth time. We aren't titillated when she makes her maid buy birth control for her sexy weekend. Some of us have known girls like Mary and have heartily disliked them just as much as he seems to admire them and I think that's something Fellowes never really expected.

It's also perfectly valid to see Mary the way he seems to have intended, but it's caused this great divide among the fans. Whether that's helped or hurt the ratings, I don't know. I just know I'm surprised at how invested I am in this thing. Edith disappoints me time after time but I've been firmly on her side almost from the very first and I don't think anything could make me like Mary at this point.

[caligirl50]

I agree with HELENAMONSTER.  I find Mary entertaining.

It amazes me how dowdy Laura Carmichael is made to look on the show as that girl has a BODY and is so attractive in real life.  Yes I scroll through Edith's endless crying scenes when I am watching the show for the 30th time (I bought on iTunes and have been watching incessantly for the past four months - I don't know why). But I do agree with the posters who say she lets life guide her instead of her guiding her life.  Wouldn't it be fascinating if Edith was made the agent for Downton?  Not certain that would ever happen but what a "jolly" surprise it would be to the audience.

[helenamonster]

I think one thing I've realized (and perhaps this belongs in the UO thread) is that the like or dislike of Mary or Edith doesn't have to be tied to the like or dislike of the other.

 

Tbh, I'd happily toss both Mary and Edith in front of the BoJ in exchange for Sybil (or, hell, O'Brien...I miss that bitch), but I don't think my change in feelings for either of them really has to do with the other, and the fact that my feelings have changed around the same time is just a coincidence. I just fucking can't with Edith deciding that she's finally decided to take control of her life when it involves steamrolling over others. As for Mary...I think I'm just used to the fact that she's a shitty person and sister. Also, MD can really deliver those snarky lines. The only issue I take with her is that her one redeeming quality (her fondness for Anna) was kind of squandered when she was all, "Here, keep this birth control hidden in the house you share with your potentially murderous husband who really wants a baby." But then she kind of made up for with her whole, "I AM LADY MARY CRAWLEY AND I DEMAND YOU RELEASE HER AT ONCE." Was it ridiculous? Yes, but damn if I didn't eat it up.

[DeepRunner]

Tbh, I'd happily toss both Mary and Edith in front of the BoJ in exchange for Sybil (or, hell, O'Brien...I miss that bitch), but I don't think my change in feelings for either of them really has to do with the other, and the fact that my feelings have changed around the same time is just a coincidence. I just fucking can't with Edith deciding that she's finally decided to take control of her life when it involves steamrolling over others. As for Mary...I think I'm just used to the fact that she's a shitty person and sister. Also, MD can really deliver those snarky lines. The only issue I take with her is that her one redeeming quality (her fondness for Anna) was kind of squandered when she was all, "Here, keep this birth control hidden in the house you share with your potentially murderous husband who really wants a baby." But then she kind of made up for with her whole, "I AM LADY MARY CRAWLEY AND I DEMAND YOU RELEASE HER AT ONCE." Was it ridiculous? Yes, but damn if I didn't eat it up.

 

* Yes, bring back O'Brien. Not sure if she'll be back on during S6, but it would be great to see her settle scores. (Fellowes punished everybody's favorite black-hat by having Bates unbelievably take sides with Thomas in the Battle of the Bottle of Scorpions. Still has to be one of the most unlikely acts in Downtonia, although I'm sure Fellowes would have faced a fecal fiesta if Thomas's career had jackknifed as was the likely outcome in those days.Still, having Thomas beat O'Brien showed that Fellowes has his pets [see "Crawley, Mary.")

 

* Mary IS loyal to Anna, and can be loyal to others (Carson). I won't throw her under the Bus O' Justice (although having her seriously atone for things would be a nice bit of schadenfreude). Mary is one of the key ingredients in the secret sauce. She does have some redeeming qualities, and yes, she delivers snark perfectly, I will offer that the ability of people to identify with any character, much less The Queen of the Hive or The Eternal Agoniste, depends on normative rationale.

[Roseanna]

I repeat some things that I sad in the thread concerning S6 part 8.

Mary and Edith’s rivalry had probably started as children Mary was the eldest child and she seemed to have everything Edith lacked (like beauty and charisma). In addition, their parents favored Mary and valued only the outer qualities she had and didn’t bother to find out whether Edith had inner qualities that were just as good in their own way. This was of course due to the values of their class and age that the woman’s only career was to marry a rich titled husband.

So it could have been unnatural if Edith hadn’t felt envy and jealousy towards her sister. But these qualities could not have survived so strong to early twenties when the show started unless Mary had constantly been really cruel towards Edith. Why was Mary that, as she had always the upper hand, is harder to understand – unless she is a bully by nature and/or she enjoys when she takes anything Edith ever wants.

Take the part where Edith writes in the end her letter to the Turkish embassy. That happens after Mary had* four* times shown how much better she is than Edith. She even tells her spitefully what Matthew told her that her attempt to catch him are vain. True, Edith shows her triumph that Strallan is interested in her and ask whether Mary is jealous. Why wouldn’t Mary simply say coldly “I left him to you as I wasn’t interested in that boring old man at all”? Why would she have to show that she can take any man Edith wants – especially as she and Matthew have just began to take interest in him? (She is duly punished because Matthews can’t accept he is her toy to put away and take again at her will, as Lord Grantham says. And it is perhaps partly that he refuses to dance according to her pipe that makes Mary fall in love with him.)

However, we have already shown that Mary may have other motives than simply bullying Edith. Whereas Edith is in naïvely following the rules and desperately wanting to marry any man who can take her, Mary says to Matthew that a upper-class woman’s life empty until she is married. She knows that the only way she can succeed in the world is marry well and she both accepts it and rebels against it. She has been engaged to Patrick, the heir whom she didn’t love and who died in Titanic, she tried vainly to catch the duke who gave her over after hearing she had no fortune, she is attracted to Pamuk (instead of Napier) and beds him, she refuses the heir, Matthew, but finally begins to fall in love with him. Meanwhile, she takes pleasure by using the only two powers she has: power to attract men and power to hurt her sister.

I could understand (though not accept) that Edith’s remark that she had to reveal to the Turkish ambassador that Mary had been a “slut” made Mary revenge by telling lies to Stratton. I even think that it was a classic case where misfortune turns out to be lucky for marrying Stratton would have mean that Edith would stay forever as an uninteresting character: an ugly duckling who married the only man who ever made an offer her.

I even understand Mary’s hesitation to accept to accept Matthew’s proposal while not knowing whether he would stay an heir is quite understandable. Marriage is not only about love, it’s also about other things (as Carson and Mrs Hughes have recently shown us). In that time time, marriage was also the only career for a upper-class woman. She did not only choose a man, she chose how she lived her whole life. Unfortunately, Mary had bad advice from her aunt although Rosamund was right that Mary wouldn’t be happy as a wife of a country barrister. But as the watchers know, Mary wouldn’t have been happy as a wife of a duke who would have married her only because of her fortune and visited love her bed only to beget an heir and a spare. Mary herself knew something important: Matthew was intelligent and could have become Lord Chancellor. What if Rosamund would have said to her: “That’s right, and you can help him to get it. You have connections and you can entertain. You two can be a splendid team.” (Of course, Mary would have to ask Matthew, what plans *he* had for his future. If he had no ambition to have a great career, he was no husband for Mary.)

However, for the show it was good that Mary and Matthew separated, for Mary was most interesting in the second season when she had feelings for Matthews but had to hide them. She also showed her best characteristics as well as an ideal behavior of the age by being nice to Lavinia and even supporting her in every way although she had chances to ruin her relationship with Matthew.

Instead, Mary couldn’t stop being nasty to Edith even if she was happily married to Matthew and he asked for it. That is strange for usually you want to please your spouse in things like that. It is nonsense to say that you can’t help it or even that the other makes you behave like it. Most of all, to behave politely doesn’t mean that you have to like a person.

As for Edith being “poor me”, that is true until she was rejected at the altar by Strallan. I wonder how much Edith’s image is influenced by that we mostly her sulking in public whereas we see Mary weeping with Carson. Edith’s too active pursuit of any man who showed interest in her (and even some that didn’t like Matthew) was pathetically comic, and at least I didn’t take them seriously. Not Strallan either and although it is humiliating to be jilted at the altar, it was much worse to marry a woman only because of duty. This was a turning point in Edith's life - again a classic misfortune that turns to be lucky in the end or at least makes you stronger (Cora was right). Indeed, after it Edith has grown constantly, even if she still has some moments of self-pity.

After Edith started a career as columnist and thereby become a woman whose sole interest was to get married with almost anybody, it was no wonder that Gregson was attracted to her – and it was he who first showed their interest. As he was a man of integrity and charm who admired her as a person, why wouldn’t she respond to his feelings? But Edith wasn't passive nor too trusting as with pseudo-Patrick: after having information about him she confronted him how he could flirt with her although he was married. But she did no longer behave as she did with Strallan whom she practically forced to propose her.

I don't think Edith should have searched for other options. Why would she? She did no more search for any man who would marry her. She had found real love. Gregson had promised to marry her and it was no empty promise as he was willing to become a German citizen in order to get the divorce and made his will in her favor. Men don't do that only in order to get to bed with a woman.

I don't blame Edith for sleeping with Gregson. That's what a man and woman usually do when they are in love and engaged to marry, especially easily in the last night before the separation. Edith certainly didn't plan and it would take an experienced woman to know that it happens sooner or later. It was Gregson's duty to prevent pregnancy for he was a man of the world and certainly had tried to bed Edith for a long time (I don't blame him for the latter as he was in love with Edith and would have kept his word to marry her if he hadn't been murdered.

When Edith found out that she was pregnant while Gregson was disappeared in Germany and she had to decide whether to have an abortion and afterwards whether to give the baby over, she had become a much more interesting character than Mary whose love affairs became with any substance than “she must remarry but whom” whereas Edith had to face greater obstacles and make greater decisions. (Of course from today’s perspective it’s not good to move a baby from foster parents to another foster parents who even live in a different country and speak different language – and finally take the baby to oneself or rather to one’s nanny. But this is a show, not a real life. Besides, one did not then know the child psychology as we do now.)

I can’t put much value in that Mary helps Anna – leaving aside that she owes a great deal to Anna who knows all her secrets that she has never revealed, as a servant Anna isn’t equal with Mary as Edith as her sister should be. Before all, it is no special benefit if you are friendly to those you like. A person’s integrity is shown in cases when she can either rise above her dislikes and/or own interests and behave decently. Most people do at least in cases when somebody in mourning. Mary couldn’t do that when Gregson died. Nor can she stand Edith's success or happiness. She must be Queen bee and have all whereas Edith must stay nobody and have nothing.

I do think that it's the most interesting story line in DA's later seasons is how Edith meet misfortunes and challenges and grows through them, not how Mary gets "all". At least because she got that "all" by accident: she didn't fight hard to get love, title and fortune in one package but she got Matthew only because Lavinia conveniently died. She got fortune (and didn't lose Downton as her home) because, after Robert had lost Cora's fortune, Lavinia's father conveniently died and left his money to Matthew who left it to her.

[Hecate7]

Oh, I definitely think this is true. 

 

The reason though I brought up the moment where Robert mutters the criticism about Mary to Cora is because I thought it demonstrated how her parents view Mary and that they actually do see her flaws so it makes me imagine that growing up for the girls likely wasn't all about Mary receiving endless praise while Edith got none. I think they're all well aware of Mary's flaws just as they are of Edith's.

 

Sybil of course wasn't really written as having any flaws. 

 

 

Except that they are constantly talking about Mary's future, whereas their muttering to each other about Edith is all along the lines of accepting that she's going to be a spinster and that she's pretty much hopeless, really.

[Roseanna]

Avaleigh, maybe her parents didn't always praise Mary (though Carson certainly did), but they tolerated her bad behavior. Cora triedto correct her though belittling Edith, but when Mary answered that Edith had no advantages, Cora didn't say anything which meant she agreed.

It's useless to say that it's only how Edith looks at herself. Nobody has bad self-image out of blue. A child learns that she is worth of love when she is looked and at treated with love.

[Tetraneutron]

And that's realistic for the time period and the characters as written? In the days where women weren't supposed to do anything but marry well, it was a real concern that some women made poor marriage prospects, because they were boring, because they were ugly, because they were poor, because they were victims of scandal, whatever. And being a spinster was, in many ways, a fate worse than death. Sure, a few eccentrics let their spinster daughters be educated, but that definitely doesn't sound like Robert. And a few women were independent and basically abandoned society to live on their own, but that's Sybil, not Edith.

 

The fact is, we aren't watching some anachronistic show where Robert sends his daughters to University and Thomas is out and proud and Daisy becomes an entrepreneur and Mary inherits Downton under her own name and turns it into a movie studio. At least we weren't in the first season.

 

So we're seeing what would have happened back then. The parents WOULD assume the ugly, boring, daughter (well, Laura Carmichael isn't ugly but they made her look aggressively dowdy) would be stuck caring for her parents in their old age, unless they could shove her off onto an ugly and boring man. Or maybe a middle-class social climber, but that wouldn't be much better, from the POV of society. Unless Robert and Cora were horrible people Edith was desperate to escape, and we don't see that either. But a well-born man with prospects and a personality? Not going to happen.

 

And Cora and Robert are pretty nice about it, by the standards of the day. They don't try to force Edith on anyone. The opposite, in fact. Robert thought Edith was too good for both Strallan and Gregson. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't value Edith. They don't tell her she's a burden who has to start earning her keep. They don't make her be a "useful spinster" by having her run Girl Guide troops or other equally awful country things. They don't send her to charm schools to try to make her into a Mary type. They accepted she wasn't going to marry, and let her be.

[DianeDobbler]

They accepted Edith wasn't going to marry by actively sabotaging a marriage to a man Edith very much wanted to marry, with whom she was happy, and with whom the show runner showed her being and feeling happy.

[Andorra]

 

and with whom the show runner showed her being and feeling happy.

 

But unfortunately the groom wasn't happy, or he wouldn't have left her standing at the altar. 

[Roseanna]

Andorra, I agree with you that Strallan wasn't happy about marriage, or maybe be was at first but then he began to have second thoughts and unfortunately so late that he publicly humilated Edith. But I can't see how it would have made Edith happy as a wife of a man who regretted the marriage? (Lavinia was saved from this fate plus knowing that Matthew loved Mary and only wanted to keep his word to her.)

Whatever Edith's family did, no man who really loves his bride and wants to marry her, does not let her family prevent it. Tom didn't. In any case, why is important any more when Edith got a much better life because of it?

As for Mary destroying Edith's only chance of happiness, while it was indeed a cruel deed (though I understand Mary's motivation), in love stories these kind of things are only temporary obstacles - if only the writer wants to give the pair a happy end, in this case the lies are somehow revealed as lies. But what it says of Strallan and his relationship with Edith that he believed Mary's lies?

[Roseanna]

About Strallan being boring: Robert said that before we even met. Then in the dinner table he begins to talk about modernizing agriculture - and Mary shows clearly by not bothering to even respond that the topic is boring to her whereas Edith both shows polite (or even real) interest and takes her chance to charm Strallan with her interest.

Now, I suppose that at that time it was considered boring to speak about agriculture with ladies and especially if you want to court somebody like Mary. But as we have later seen, agriculture - or even pigs - is no more boring to Mary. The joke was really on her.

If we take only what Strallan *does* in the show, I don't think he is boring at all - on the contrary he sees the need to modernize agriculture early and begins to work on it, he buys a car and likes fast driving, he has loved his wife and has a god marriage. All this could have made an interesting man - if only the actor was different. He could have been middle-aged and a war invalid, if only he hadn't had that clown's face.

[TheGreenKnight]

But unfortunately the groom wasn't happy, or he wouldn't have left her standing at the altar. 

I don't agree with that. Strallan seemed to like Edith very much before he was made out as an unwelcome presence by her family. It's clear they tapped into his insecurities over his injury to make him feel he was being selfish for pursuing Edith, that he was ruining their daughter's chance at happiness by tying her down to a man like himself, and extending his own embarrassment to her (and them) because she was paired with someone unworthy. If the family had been warm or at least civil with him, rather than cold and callous, I have no doubt Edith and Strallan would have married without a hitch.

 

Actually, this same insecurity is present in Strallan when he first pursues Edith, to a lesser extent. Someone above mentioned the fact that he believed Mary's lies, and that, too, had to do with the insecurity that he had misunderstood Edith and looked like an old letch going after a young girl like Edith (and Mary, too). This is partly why I liked Edith and Strallan together. They both have their insecurities, but they seemed to work well off of one another.

Edited November 21, 2015 by TheGreenKnight

[Hecate7]

Avaleigh, maybe her parents didn't always praise Mary (though Carson certainly did), but they tolerated her bad behavior. Cora triedto correct her though belittling Edith, but when Mary answered that Edith had no advantages, Cora didn't say anything which meant she agreed.

It's useless to say that it's only how Edith looks at herself. Nobody has bad self-image out of blue. A child learns that she is worth of love when she is looked and at treated with love.

 

 

This! Exactly! Everyone thinks they're great until they're told they're not. Edith's lack of confidence, the fact that Mary thinks she's "mopey" but in fact the minute she's away from the family she's all smiles and curiosity and friendliness, underlines the fact that yes, she is bullied by the family, particularly Mary. Edith reached out to Strallan, and was always bright and cheerful in his presence, and glowing after their car rides together. It was the one thing she looked forward to in her day, and so of course Mary took it from her as soon as she could. It was worse than what Edith did to Mary, because 1) it was a lie, 2) it took the one bright spot out of the lives of two very lonely people, not just Edith. When Mary is angry, she doesn't care who gets hurt as long as she hurts Edith.

 

Edith acted out of jealousy and misguided prudery and anger when she wrote the letter. She was a virgin, Mary was not. She is kind, Mary is not. Yet Mary had all the beaux and the family expected Mary's marriage to save Downton. I think Edith had the misguided idea that if Mary suddenly became ineligible, their roles would be switched, and Edith would have all the beaux and rescue Downton, and then Mary would need her help, and would have to be nice to her. If Mary kept bullying her, Edith would for the first time in her life be in a position to punish her for meanness and reward her for kindness, instead of just taking whatever Mary happened to dish out.

 

But that's not what happened. Mary's "disgrace" did not make Edith the belle of Downton. It literally changed nothing, in fact. Instead of taking the lesson that squarely facing disgrace and confessing to her suitors actually helped Mary, Edith took the lesson that that's how things work for Mary, but for Edith things generally suck and she cannot expect to fly when she jumps out a window just because Mary did.

[Roseanna]

I have been watching the show again and noticed something very strange: there is no great hostility between Mary and Edith in S1 and S2. They do not like each other but they behave as if Edith's letter nor Mary's lies never have happened.

Edith doesn't try to sabotage Mary's happiness by telling Carlisle or later Matthew about Pamuk. In fact, it's Mrs Bates who tries to harm her husband through Mary. There are only little things like Edith is amused realizing that Mary is praying but they aren't really important and more like normal teasing. When Matthew is missing, Edith doesn't put salt on Mary's wounds when she is weakest (of course she likes Matthew and is worried, too). Edith doesn't try to sabotage Mary's relationship with Matthew by telling Pamuk affair before she did. (Cf. Thomas and O'Brien who try to hurt others only because of malice).

After Sybil dies and Edith asks Mary whether they can behave better towards each other, Mary says that she doubt it but also something like "learning to love each other like sisters should". Mary says nothing against Edith's marriage with Strallan. Cora admires Edith as a bride (the only time she says that Edith is beautiful) and Edith is happy because now she is married like her sisters and therefore equal with them. Before they go to the church, Edith wants to be photographed with her sisters and Mary wishes her sincerely well "at least this day". After Edith is crying in her room, Cora, Sybil and Mary come to her, but Edith asks *both* her sisters to leave because she can't tolerate that they have husband and babies and she haven't. Cora comforts Edith really wisely. Mary doesn't put salt in Edith's wounds in the situation where is weakest. While Robert thinks that Edith is wanted as a columnist only because her title, Cora encourages her in Mrs Crawley's lunch party and also Mary says Matthew and she agree.

To put are together, neither Mary nor Edith doesn't behave like they were mortal enemies who nurse bitterness towards each other for their past deeds and wants to revenge them. On the basis of Edith's behavior before the wedding and after it, it seems clearly that Edith wanted to marry Strallan in order to be equal with her sisters and have what they had, not because she loved him. It was only Robert and occasionally Violet who didn't believe that Edith couldn't become a columnist, Cora and Matthew encouraged her actively. Mary didn't make sniping remarks.

I think it was really a good development that Edith experienced the wedding catastrophe that made her stop to compete with her sisters in an area where they were superior and found her own area where she could excel. Once she stopped to aggressively pursuing *any* man to marry her, a man who was worthy of her began to pursue her. When she expected a baby outside wedlock and had the greatest need, she found allies in Rosamund and Violet. Later also Cora and Robert accepted her baby as a family member. Robert even admired her when she edited the paper. Only her two partners weren't "good enough" to Robert. Edith's main problem was that she wanted a life of her own but she still wanted acceptance of her family.

But why Mary came back to her former behavior towards Edith, I can't really understand - or rather why JF made her behave like that? She was so unhappy after Matthew died? Life was so boring? Both reasons are really enough.

[Hecate7]

She has always pretty much used Edith as her own personal verbal punching bag. The friction between Mary and Edith began to annoy me in the second episode, and this idea that Edith shouldn't marry because it's "competition" with her sisters, is like saying Sybil shouldn't marry because she's not "as good at it" as Mary is. Edith may have assumed that she had to marry someone. She was desperate for affection, attention, and love or she wouldn't have kissed the farmer. But that doesn't mean she didn't want to marry Strallan. She most certainly did. It's just as well that she didn't, sure, and I agree that she grew from having to figure out something else to do, but that doesn't make what the family did OK.

[Roseanna]

Hecate7, obviously we have different values both in life and in stories. Although I don't expect that you understand me, I still try to explain.

If I saw Edith as an ugly and stupid girl who had no other options in life than to have a dull life without ever really living, then it would have OK for me that she married any man who wanted to marry her - after she had practically forced him to do it. Instead, I believe that Edith deserved more - she deserved to develop her abilities and live a life in full and that could only happen through trials. If there were trial, there couldn't be development and then there could be no story.

As for Sybil, she married Tom for love but not only that. She herself said that he was her way out from Downton. At first it seemed to me a rather odd way to accept a proposal, but after further thinking Sybil realized, honest as she was, that this was a hidden reason why she fell in love with Tom. There's nothing wrong in it for Tom was a good man and suited for Sybil. Although it could seem that he pressured Sybil to marry him, he didn't behave like Henry towards Mary. Sybil was always in full control of their relationship: if she had said "no, it's impossible, it will never happen for I don't love you", Tom would have left Downton, but instead she didn't give him an answer and repeatedly came to talk with him in garage - in short, she gave him hope, so he waited for her.

In the same way, Rose who wanted a different life than her aristocratic parents, always fell in love with "unsuitable" men - first with a married man, then a black singer, and finally a Jew who after initial resistance could be accepted by both parties (but hardly could a generation earlier).

As for Mary, she begins her sniping remarks again during the Highland holiday. First it's mainly due snobism (she believes that Gregson is a social climber who tries to get good connections through Edith) and Cora for once corrects her. In the second time she makes a belittling personal remark and Edith asks whether she must always be heartless. However, it's likely that if Matthew hadn't died, there would never be anything worse. (Cf. Rose's parents.)

After the birth of her son, Mary says that she always wants to be Matthew's Mary and not Edith's or anybody else's version. So it troubles her at least a bit that nobody else thinks that she is nice but Matthew. Also, it's shows that Mary is very childish - she is only what other people see that she is. Maybe it's why the title and Downton were so important to her.

[Roseanna]

After the wedding fiasco, Alfred says that Edith can do better as she is young and "not bad looking". So she isn't a hopeless case according to a young man who is impartial witness.

It was clothes and hairstyle but most all all her mopey face and lack of social skills that made that Edith didn't attract men that Mary did. But in the real life it would have liked that one of the officers who were in Downton during the war would have fallen in her for her kindness.

Since then, we have seen that Edith isn't ugly, quite the reverse, and can indeed attract men of sense.

Also in relationship with Mary, Edith can now get back. This isn't the best tactics but it's better than looking hurt as she did before. She is no loser any more.

With Mary, the development had been worse. Her remarks aren't witty, they are only mean. Besides, she is no as beautiful as she was with Matthew or riding with Pamuk. Now her face is almost immobile as she were a puppet.

PS. Do men in high position always fall in love with beauties? Was Wallis Simpson beautiful? Or Camilla?