Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[kitticup]

I don't have tumblr, so I was wondering what the general consensus on this episode is? Frankly I hated it completely and may stop watching the show altogether. I would think only SQ would like it.

[Rumsy4]

The general consensus in my dash (predominantly CS-heavy) is--pained and heart-broken, but judgement reserved until the season finale. Some outright hated or disliked it. The few Rumbellers on my dash seemed happy with the developments in the episode as well (except for the break-up). I don't know what the other factions think.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

I see some CSers getting mad at each other for difference of opinion on what happened to Hook and Emma's relationship last night. I don't get why people think they should love the same thing. I refuse to follow any RBer or SQers sorry.

It did surprise me to see some Snowing fans who felt Emma's family was being to harsh on her when usually they think Emma's being the brat so theirs that.

[FierceAfroChick]

I see some CSers getting mad at each other for difference of opinion on what happened to Hook and Emma's relationship last night. I don't get why people think they should love the same thing. I refuse to follow any RBer or SQers sorry.

It did surprise me to see some Snowing fans who felt Emma's family was being to harsh on her when usually they think Emma's being the brat so theirs that.

 

I find I enjoy CS (and certain aspects of the show) more when I avoid social media.  I'm going to try harder to avoid spoilers too.  Less handwringing about my babies.  I don't know what happens beyond 5.12, so I'm going to try to keep it that way. 

[Curio]

An interview with Colin just came out, and he said at one point: "Hook is a character who kind of divides the fans in a lot of ways. I mean, some people really like him, and some people really hate him." And it's just that moment where you go shit, they really do read the bad stuff people say online. 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

I felt bad and embarrassed about that. 

[sharky]

I doubt Colin goes on tumblr or anything, but I'm also pretty sure that it's hard for him to dodge how fans respond to him on Twitter and the like. Of course, that same interview asks him for his reaction to fans getting excited about his hair so we can at least confirm that Leanne from ET reads tumblr -- or maybe just Twitter as well.

[OnceUponAJen]

An interview with Colin just came out, and he said at one point: "Hook is a character who kind of divides the fans in a lot of ways. I mean, some people really like him, and some people really hate him." And it's just that moment where you go shit, they really do read the bad stuff people say online.

I don't doubt he sees things people say. When you go back to when he first came on Twitter, you can see how much more interactive he was. I wonder if the negative caused him to pull back, or was it just that his number of followers grew and it became harder to maintain that?

[Souris]

Of course, that same interview asks him for his reaction to fans getting excited about his hair so we can at least confirm that Leanne from ET reads tumblr -- or maybe just Twitter as well.

 

She solicited questions on Twitter, and I think a couple of people asked about his hair, LOL.

[Faemonic]

I mentioned upthread that media representation isn't the most important thing in social justice, but it's the most effective and accessible, and discussions about what's problematic can be very valuable. When that value is prioritized over individual, personal boundaries? We've got a problem. As I kept saying, there are no movement rights that violate individual rights.

 

The recognition of real-world power imbalances and how that ties it with representation anywhere is all well and good for articulating why someone might enjoy or feel uncomfortable with something shown in fiction. It's awful when it's grown into a contrivance for forcing anybody else to interpret a fiction in the exact same way that one person does.

 

I'm not into many fandoms, but that's happening sooooooo very much in here.

 

New favorite link about this in general: http://newvagabond.tumblr.com/post/134245205652/so-many-young-people-on-this-site-are-learning

 

So many young people on this site are learning that it’s okay to be disgustingly cruel to someone… in the name of stopping disgustingly cruel things from happening to people.

 

In what universe does that make any sense? In what universe is that admirable or okay?

 

The sad thing is if I were some Radical Disability Blogger, and went around being a dick to everyone who I think is “able-bodied”, or made people cry and then laughed at their tears because “HA, you think those are tears? they will never match the ones I’ve cried over my oppression!!" — I would be really popular. I would have so many more followers. That’s so messed up. These kids do that, see the attention they get, then other people copy them and parrot what they say so they’ll get more attention and it just keeps spreading around without anyone stopping and going, “Wait… I’m being so mean. This is not who I am. This is not who I want to be. I want to help people. Bringing other people down isn’t the way to do that.” Instead it’s just “you disagree with my headcanON YOU ARE A TRANSPHOBE” even if person is literally like, “but… ok, but I’m trans, and I have a different headcanon because my experience as a trans person is different than… wait, YOU'RE not trans, but you’re calling ME a transphobe for not calling this robot the gender you like to call them??wat”

[Mathius]

The FEMINIST RAGE!!! of the SQ shippers at the 5A finale is something to behold, on Twitter, Tumblr and elsewhere.

 

Kyle has gone full-blown psychopath, Lily Sparks is breaking down...it's glorious.

[FierceAfroChick]

Hee!  I’ve been avoiding social media, but might have to check this out.

[legaleagle53]

The FEMINIST RAGE!!! of the SQ shippers at the 5A finale is something to behold, on Twitter, Tumblr and elsewhere.

 

Kyle has gone full-blown psychopath, Lily Sparks is breaking down...it's glorious.

 

I wondered how fast SQ would lose its collective mind over that ending.  I take it they make Zelena look sane and rational by comparison?

[Mari]

The FEMINIST RAGE!!! of the SQ shippers at the 5A finale is something to behold, on Twitter, Tumblr and elsewhere.

 

Kyle has gone full-blown psychopath, Lily Sparks is breaking down...it's glorious.

Any links to particularly unhinged stuff?

[Watt]

Any links to particularly unhinged stuff?

 

Yes please, if you can. I don't tumblr much- and hate to just randomly google swan queen lol

[Rumsy4]

Natalie Abrams's put in a sour grapes bitter shipper line saying "Captain Swan relationship was tenuous at best" in 5A in her post 5A interview with Jen and Colin. Lol

[Mari]

Well, Adam's on twitter again, battling with fans, and it's not necessarily going well.  Some is about why he's blocking some people.  His answer?  

folks who use awful language and get personal, aren't "fans" -- happy to hear articulate critiques

[tennisgurl]

Oh boy, here we go again...

[orza]

He's got a point. Nobody has to put up with crude people if they don't want to and no one is owed a response. It's the same idiots who are always bombarding him with whiny tweets.

[legaleagle53]

True, and it's also why except for Rebecca Mader, the cast and crew rarely interact directly with the fans anymore.  I'm guessing that that's either a written or unwritten policy among them now.  Rebecca, however, doesn't get any flack from the rabid fans, so she's still always happy to interact with them whenever she has the time and is so nice and gracious to them that it's hard to believe that she plays such an odious character as Zelena.

[orza]

Rebecca plays a supporting character and hasn't been with the show as long as the other actors. She kinda flies under the radar on the fan madness front. I imagine after a couple of years fan fatigue and a take a no shit attitude sets in among the actors. Why waste time on that nonsense that could be better spent with family and friends or just napping on the couch.

Edited December 7, 2015 by orza

[Mathius]

Adam DEFINITELY has a point. Even fans who dislike TS;TW like on here don't go cursing TW out to their faces (so to speak) on Twitter and launching personal attacks against them no matter what we may think of their wonky morality.

 

The stuff Kyle is spewing is particularly vile (and hypocritical, with the "Captain Rapist" and "Once Upon a Rapist" stuff)

 

 

I wondered how fast SQ would lose its collective mind over that ending.  I take it they make Zelena look sane and rational by comparison?

 

 

Zelena is the paragon of sanity compared to a lot of these folks.

 

Any links to particularly unhinged stuff?

 

Just go to Adam, Jane, Brigitte, JMO and Colin's accounts and you should find it easily in replies to their tweets.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mathius

[FierceAfroChick]

Have Adam and Eddy ever squashed SQ?  It seems to me they could solve this problem by simply stating that SQ will never be.  There won’t be any queerbaiting or exploring or anything.  Regina and Emma just gonna be friends…no romance at all.  And maybe that shit will finally sink in and the rabid haters would fade away.

 

I really hate that they give Jen so much grief for not indulging their SQ fantasies.  But she knows what story line she likes, so why wouldn't she promote and enthuse about it?  She's such a sweetie, she doesn't deserve to be hounded like that. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[tennisgurl]

Why do I read those tweets?!?! Man, I have my issues with Adam, but I feel for the guy right now. Between the terrible spelling (even for twitter) and the badgering comments, he must be having a rotten day. 

 

They just need to nip this SwanQueen stuff in the bud. Just say that there is never going to be a SwanQueen, and add in some actual LGBTQ characters. Then at least they wont be able to hide their shipper rage behind social justice. 

[Amerilla]

It seems to me they could solve this problem by simply stating that SQ will never be.

 

I doubt that would stop the criticism. The criticism itself is irrational - there is no SQ, it's completely made up in the minds of its fandom  - so you can't really combat it with rationality. 

[mtsmvfn]

Have Adam and Eddy ever squashed SQ?  It seems to me they could solve this problem by simply stating that SQ will never be.  There won’t be any queerbaiting or exploring or anything.  Regina and Emma just gonna be friends…no romance at all.  And maybe that shit will finally sink in and the rabid haters would fade away.

 

I really hate that they give Jen so much grief for not indulging their SQ fantasies.  But she knows what story line she likes, so why wouldn't she promote and enthuse about it?  She's such a sweetie, she doesn't deserve to be hounded like that. 

 

They have several times.... One of the last times when they were asked directly at a  comic con panel.. SQr's lost their minds but still they continue.

[Mathius]

Yeah, they said at Comic Con 2013 that SQ wasn't going to happen.  Nobody listened, or maybe they thought that they could change A&E's minds through continued activity, or maybe they even thought A&E were just tricking people so as to hide the "surprise" when SQ became endgame.  

[orza]

Have Adam and Eddy ever squashed SQ?  It seems to me they could solve this problem by simply stating that SQ will never be.  There won’t be any queerbaiting or exploring or anything.  Regina and Emma just gonna be friends…no romance at all.  And maybe that shit will finally sink in and the rabid haters would fade away.

Yes, they did nip that in the bud at ComicCon 2013. Someone asked a question about SQ and Eddy came right out and told her no, she was was mistaken about SQ being a thing in the show. Since then they have always framed their comments about Regina and Emma as a friendship/family connection based on their love for Henry. But people are stupid.

[october]

I can't find a link, but I remember a video of a convention where Adam and Eddie basically said 'sorry, nope' to a question about whether SQ was intentional. That combined with the actors saying it isn't the plan and the way the show has been pushing CS and OQ pretty damn hard should be enough for any reasonable person to get a clue. But those fans aren't reasonable. I wonder if deep down they want to be disappointed so they have a 'reason' to howl and lash out.

 

ETA: yeah, that Comic Con panel must be the one I remember.

Edited December 7, 2015 by october

[Mari]

But at the same time, the show itself promoted Swan Queen--especially last season--with "Swan Queen" episodes, and by regularly making comments about all ships being wonderful and equal.  

Maybe it's just the marketing department, but IIIRC, the dreaded episode-which-will-not-be-named was even promoted with shiny red Valentine-style hearts.

 

But, it seems as though some associated with the show are--or were--trying to have it both ways, and that doesn't work.  

[FierceAfroChick]

*sigh*  So they squash SQ, but Adam still tweets SQ stuff.  Don't encourage them, dude.  If it's not going to be a thing, maybe you shouldn't gleefully tweet results of SQ winning shipper polls, etc. 

 

And if I was a writer and kept getting so much grief from a particular fandom, I'd go out of my way to make their dreams not come true.  Would be ignoring them and promoting my canon couples and avoiding all things SQ. 

 

Let me take back the ignore thing.  I like to cuss folks out when they come at me, so I would probably be going in on a lot of folks...and losing my job in the process...LOL.

Edited December 7, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Shanna Marie]

But, it seems as though some associated with the show are--or were--trying to have it both ways, and that doesn't work.

I think that's the real problem. They have no intention of really doing anything with it in the show, but at the same time, they seem to like the noise it makes and play to that crowd for publicity, with stuff like acknowledging even non-canon relationships in hashtags, the promo stuff with the hearts, even throwing in a few wink-wink, nudge-nudge moments in the show. Add to that the illusion of access to the powers that be via social media, and I can see where that might give fans hope that they might be able to sway the writers if they make enough noise. If they want to slow down or at at least dampen the abuse, they're going to have to go cold turkey and stop feeding the trolls, both on and offscreen. The initial response might be more noise, but eventually when they get no reaction some of it may die down.

[orza]

I wonder if deep down they want to be disappointed so they have a 'reason' to howl and lash out.

Yes, this. When fans get so unhappily overinvested in a show it really is not about the show anymore. It's just a stand-in for something in in their life that they can't or won't address or cope with. Some people get addicted to negative emotions and need to be unhappy about something or other all the time.

Edited December 7, 2015 by orza

[mjgchick]

But ships aren't always a couple things. Sometimes ships are friendships or family relation. It's them who chooses not to see it that's why I've always said the only time OUAT has ever queerbaited was towards Mulan and Aurora not Emma and Regina. (Although I side eyed Adam for putting Regina and Hook against each other early in the season with that whole the two people closest to Emma only to see that Regina still doesn't know who Emma is.) Emma was single for 3 seasons, not once did she give Regina loving eyes or whatever the fandom is seeing that others, the actors and writers don't see.

In fact I don't even think Lana promoting Swan Queen is queerbating because even she's made it clear that Emma and Regina are close because of Henry.

[Mari]

True, but there's a difference between promoting them as an interesting dynamic, and promoting them as romantic.   There're nonromantic relationships that they could promote and I would definitely watch, and not think they are baiting.

 

But red Valentine's hearts imply romance.  Talking about and/or tweeting about them the same way you would canon romantic couples imply romance.   

 

At times, the show has done this.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mari

[sharky]

They weren't Swan Queen episodes, they were Savior Queen, and yes there is a difference. This is one of those splitting hairs with labels things that I don't mind. I'm a fan of the Regina/Emma friendship, but not a romantic relationship.

 

As for the fan meltdown, just search the swan queen tag on tumblr. Here's one: "Half Swan Queen fandom didn’t watch season 5 and the other half quit last night (even if we’ll always be here to laugh at ratings and enjoy fanfics and fanarts). And that’s why last night you got 3.9 millions" (The show got 4.8 million viewers. The 3.9 million is coming from the fact that the last half hour of the show's ratings are being lumped in with the horrific Blood and Oil.) Or there's this: "So Lana tweeted about Eva Longoria’s new show but she hasn’t said anything about the once winter season finale. She didn’t even promote the finale at all. If you ask me that says a lot" (It doesn't say anything actually, and she did post a BTS pic with Hook so...awkward.)

 

I frankly don't really get it. Why are they so upset about last night and not any other episode? It is so clear that the end game is Captain Swan so what made last night so off-putting to them?

 

They also have apparently taken over the SpoilerTV poll. Yippee.

 

ETA: About promotion. A&E don't have much input on how ABC promotes things on Facebook or Twitter. So while someone may have promoted something that way, it still doesn't make it canon.

Edited December 7, 2015 by sharky

[Mathius]

HUGE slip from Adam about who he considers "the female lead."

[Curio]

Well, he's not wrong. I'd consider Jen, Ginny (when she's actually given good stuff), and Lana all female leads on the show. Robert and Colin are the male leads. Josh is a lead by proxy.

 

Looks like Amy Manson finally took down those re-tweets. Figured the PR people would get to her eventually.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Curio

[sharky]

I think he was trying to say she was one of the leads. If you go in his feed more, he talks about it being an ensemble cast. Still think there is only one lead in my mind but whatever. Your mileage may vary.

[orza]

HUGE slip from Adam about who he considers "the female lead."

That's no surprise. The show has always been about Regina's story. That was evident in interviews back in Sept. 2011.

[Mari]

I frankly don't really get it. Why are they so upset about last night and not any other episode? It is so clear that the end game is Captain Swan so what made last night so off-putting to them?

I have no idea what about this particular episode drove more people over the edge than usual.  After all, there was the "You're the only one I can trust to do this." scene with Emma and Regina, and that would usually be satisfying to people invested in them romantically.

 

Please don't misunderstand my earlier posts--the bits we've mentioned and looked at are vile--especially the Captain Rapist stuff, and the swearing and namecalling they're doing about and to the cast and crew.  (Seriously.  Do those people not still not understand that their preferred romantic partner for Emma is an actual rapist?  How is that remotely better?) 

 

And, if they were paying attention to what was actually happening on-screen, it wouldn't be a surprise when they figure out they're not getting the romantic relationship they wanted.  

 

But, I do think the show has tried a more than a little too hard to be ambiguous, and to court the fans of ships they have no intention of following through on.  That leads some people who would ordinarily be fine with making their own head-canon fanfic and watching the show as it is, into people that think what they want is possible or even likely.

 

Hearing "Swan Queen isn't happening." while at the same time you're hearing "All ships are equally valid and wonderful!  We support and love all ships!" and yours is being promoted with red hearts?  I can see why a few people think the "Swan Queen isn't happening." is A&E's usual "No spoilers!" behavior.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mari

[Mathius]

That's no surprise. The show has always been about Regina's story. That was evident in interviews back in Sept. 2011.

 

Then I wish they had been honest about that in the show itself from the beginning.  If Emma was always just a decoy protagonist, then they really should have just axed her altogether and set the show from Regina's POV from day 1.

 

I think he was trying to say she was one of the leads. If you go in his feed more, he talks about it being an ensemble cast. Still think there is only one lead in my mind but whatever. Your mileage may vary.

 

Yeah, but the fan just said "your female lead", and Regina was the one his mind automatically went to.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mathius

[Serena]

 

Yeah, but the fan just said "your female lead", and Regina was the one his mind automatically went to.

I think you're not giving Adam enough credit. He knew she was referring to Emma. He purposefully misunderstood her (or him, sorry, didn't check) as a way to combat the "white lead" criticism. Like "what do you mean we're not diverse enough with a white lead? Lana is totally not white!". Admitting that, yes, they do have a white lead and mostly white cast wouldn't get him to "win" that argument.

[sharky]

What Serena said. There's also the option that he's trying to do the whole "See? We have Lana! We're diverse!"

 

Of course, he could've just ignored the tweet and not even respond to it. Sometimes, I think it would be better for him to bury his Twitter account in some cement shoes or something.

[tri4335]

By credit placement, Ginny, Jennifer and Robert are the leads - you can see this on how they are placed in the credits - Ginny first, Jennifer second and Robert is distinguised by the "and" at the end. You can also see this is in the show description when you look at info on your cable guide - it lists for cast Ginny, Jennifer and Robert first.  All others of the ensemble cast can then be considered equals. Now it has become apparent that they consider Lana the lead by their story telling but the show was sold to ABC on the backs of GG, JM and RC.  GG and JM were the ones who went out to all the media and sold the show and it was their "star power" that ABC wanted promoting it - and this is still somewhat true today seeing which shows they get booked on outside of ABC shows - they are the known product.  Now like many ensemble shows, once the contracts are up for renewal you may see a shift in the credits to recognize the breakout/new stars of the show.  They won't demote Ginny and Jennifer but will most likely add Lana to the end of the credits and distinguish her by a "with".

 

The issue for many fans is they practiced a classic bait and switch.  We all showed up to watch Snow White and Emma's story but were told they only vehicle left on the lot was EQ.  It is a credit to GG and JM that they are able to sell a great deal of crap that is dished out to their characters. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by tri4335

[Watt]

The problem I see on Twitter is they are arguing for LBGT to have lead status on the show and maybe that's a valid goal, but the issue is let's say A&E suddenly make two new random characters leads, make them Gay, and then what. Is that enough or will it only appease them if its Swan Queen? Because I'm pretty sure they don't want "any" LGBT couple. They want that one, in particular.

[FierceAfroChick]

I think they were upset because it looked like Hook and Captain Swan were dead in the water, then he came to his senses, he and Emma declared their love and later she vowed to get him back. Plus. Hook clapped back at Regina, he gave her some truth serum then he basically told her to shut the fuck up. They most likely hate that someone was allowed to lay their Queen low. They're pissed because that fantasy they entertained, that the abusive rapist was permanently on the outs with Emma and her family, isn't going anywhere.

Edited December 8, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[Mathius]

Also, they are outraged that Emma is "putting her family and son in jeopardy for a man who tried to kill them all and just changed his mind", and some stuff like that, ignoring how they all put everyone in jeopardy when they tried to save Regina in the S2 finale after she had tried to kill them all and just changed her mind (and she had no excuse like being cursed with the Darkness against her will), and ignoring just how crappy Emma's family and son have been to her and about helping her this whole half-season (whereas Hook had been trying his damndest until he went dark).

She's always put herself in jeopardy for them and their happiness, now it's finally time for them to do the same for her.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Mathius

[Mari]

Well, yes, but that would require Emma to be important to that particular subset of fans.  To some of them, she's not.  She's just the vehicle who's supposed to deliver their concept of Regina's much-deserved happy ending.

[YaddaYadda]

I have no idea what about this particular episode drove more people over the edge than usual.  After all, there was the "You're the only one I can trust to do this." scene with Emma and Regina, and that would usually be satisfying to people invested in them romantically.

 

Well I think they saw Regina stabbing Emma to death as a huge romantic gesture. But Emma got to stab Hook instead, so maybe they see their SQ romantic gesture as being hijacked by Captain Swan?

 

I don't know, i've got nothing.