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Spoiler-Free Speculation: You Know Nothing Jon Sn--, Oh Wait


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I'm actually scared about the dragons. GoT used the cost of showing dragons as an excuse for every single other thing they didn't want to spend money on, giving us that horrible green screen bastard battle and months on end without knowing where Jon's wolf was (you know, 'cause occasionally having him say 'hi Ghost" and then showing a dog in a field somewhere say "woof" is just so, so expensive.) So with this show from the very beginning being hugely dracocentric, how cheap is everything else gonna end up being? I keep envisioning scene after scene where they can only show one Targaryan on camera at a time because all of the actors are sharing the same crappy white Halloween wig.

Maybe I'd feel better if I watched some promotional material, but I'm trying to go into this as spoiler-free as possible, at least for the first viewing. Probably afterward I'll delve into the extras a bit, just to help me keep straight which character is which.

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Crab Man probably signs a deal that declares an autonomous "No Sail Zone" in exchange for payment and peace.... That Jorah eventually blundered into using the shortcut avoided by pirates and smugglers...

Edited by paigow
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I started the book and gave up one chapter in because it was written like a history book/Bible. And I remember nothing. But that makes me think the creators of this show have some leeway in the details. History is written by the current winners. So maybe so and so doesn't die but disappears from the narrative because ultimately they aren't that important to the final outcome. I guess what I mean is maybe not every dragon dies but departs like the end of GOT. 

I also hope we get some more intrigue about how the Targaryans and Valaryans are an invading, "foreign", force. Occupiers in a way. Like I want to see the native Houses undermining them more. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I heard the outline of a theory that purports to explain why Ser Criston won't face any consequences for his indiscretion during the rehearsal dinner.

The "commotion" breaks out when Daemon is talking to Rhaenyra on the dance floor, specifically as he's clutching her face as if about to kiss her.

The theory is Laenor intervened or tried to intervene. Laenor may not be interested in Rhaenyra sexually, but what Daemon appeared to be doing was immensely disrespectful (see Viserys's reaction). Joffrey followed suit, possibly unsheathing his dagger, to protect Laenor. Criston used that as an excuse to attack Joffrey and either killed him in cold blood or just got caught up in his own rage blood lust.

I'm skeptical for a few reasons.

Laenor had to fight his way in towards Criston and Joffrey, you'd think Laenor would already on the scene. I suppose Criston could have pulled Joffrey away a bit, and then the crowd got in the way, but I'm dubious.

Also, we see Joffrey unsheathing his dagger after he's already on the floor being beaten by Criston. It seems unlikely that Joffrey unsheathed his dagger and then sheathed it. I suppose it's possible, but once again I'm dubious.

Just passing the theory along in case someone else can put some meat on its bones. 

Edited by Constantinople
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Someone said in the episode thread that Lord Corlys will be relieved that Joffrey is gone since he is in denial about Laenor's sexuality (AKA it won't matter that Joffrey is dead, Laenor will still be gay) and basically won't encourage a punishment the way he might have if he like...cared that Criston also attacked his son and traumatized him by murdering his.... "friend". So that's possible. But Lonmouth is a noble house and Criston is common-born, and I don't think Westerosi nobility has generally held to the Dothraki standard of "we need multiple fatalities to really make this a good time" so it's still weird. Also, from Visery's POV, Criston caused a brawl that put the princess in danger and Harwin Strong had to get her out of it, so I can't imagine he'd be thrilled with Criston. His health problems becoming more critical may be enough for Alicent's insistence on protecting Criston to be more meaningful than they would have otherwise been. Rhaenyra seemed to honestly care about Laenor and looked distressed on his behalf at the end of the episode, so however it goes, I imagine his actions have made the tension between them entirely mutual. Especially if she sees that Alicent has taken an interest in protecting him.

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59 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Someone said in the episode thread that Lord Corlys will be relieved that Joffrey is gone since he is in denial about Laenor's sexuality (AKA it won't matter that Joffrey is dead, Laenor will still be gay) and basically won't encourage a punishment the way he might have if he like...cared that Criston also attacked his son and traumatized him by murdering his.... "friend". So that's possible. 

Corlys might hope that Laenor becomes ungay, but he is definitely happy that Criston eliminated a smug douchebag from Driftmark  

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The only way I see Ser Criston getting out of killing Ser Joffrey is if there's a trial by combat. Not about whether Criston killed Joffrey, but about what Criston claims he saw Ser Joffrey doing that led to Criston attacking Joffrey and killing him. Presumably Ser Criston would be his own champion and win, if anyone cared to face him.

In Game of Thrones, there was no dispute that the Hound killed Mycah, yet there was still a trial by combat to determine if the Hound was justified in doing so, and the Hound served as his own champion.

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1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

The only way I see Ser Criston getting out of killing Ser Joffrey is if there's a trial by combat.  Presumably Ser Criston would be his own champion and win, if anyone cared to face him.

Now that Daemon has consumed the Captain Westeros super soldier serum [crab extract], any rematch would likely go against Criston 

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On 9/21/2022 at 7:33 AM, Constantinople said:

The only way I see Ser Criston getting out of killing Ser Joffrey is if there's a trial by combat. Not about whether Criston killed Joffrey, but about what Criston claims he saw Ser Joffrey doing that led to Criston attacking Joffrey and killing him. Presumably Ser Criston would be his own champion and win, if anyone cared to face him.

In Game of Thrones, there was no dispute that the Hound killed Mycah, yet there was still a trial by combat to determine if the Hound was justified in doing so, and the Hound served as his own champion.

I don't recall this- the Hound killed Mycha because he raised a hand to the crown prince, there was no trial by combat for him as the son of the butcher. Only Ned and Ayra cared that Mycha was dead.

I am guessing that Rhaenrya is not going to be so pleased that Ser Harwin is dead once she gets word, she moved back to Dragonstone but I know she will want someone to pay.

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2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I am guessing that Rhaenrya is not going to be so pleased that Ser Harwin is dead once she gets word, she moved back to Dragonstone but I know she will want someone to pay.

For dramatic effect, she will get bad intel from Larys and kill all his enemies for him. Likely he would implicate Cole.

Edited by paigow
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3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don't recall this- the Hound killed Mycha because he raised a hand to the crown prince, there was no trial by combat for him as the son of the butcher. Only Ned and Ayra cared that Mycha was dead.

The trial by combat was in Season 3 after the Hound was captured by the Brotherhood. Arya accused the Hound of murdering Mycah. The Hound admitted that he killed Mycah but did so as Joffrey's sworn shield and that it wasn't his  place to question the word of princes. So the Hound and Beric fought in trial by combat.

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1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

The trial by combat was in Season 3 after the Hound was captured by the Brotherhood. Arya accused the Hound of murdering Mycah. The Hound admitted that he killed Mycah but did so as Joffrey's sworn shield and that it wasn't his  place to question the word of princes. So the Hound and Beric fought in trial by combat.

OH YES! Thank you.

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Yeah, I don’t know why they’ve been setting up this “Daemon is impotent” narrative only to slap him with two (near three) insta-kids over the time jump. For a series that loves gratuitous sex scenes, they really missed an opportunity to clarify that detail. 

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1 hour ago, Enigma X said:

I am seeing a lot of internet speculation that I hope is not true. That is that Laena's kids are not actually Daemon's. 

Who could it be? A dragon handler? He lost his private army... This is completely image.png.418eec55812596cc25ae223e8a4e37b5.png

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16 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I am seeing a lot of internet speculation that I hope is not true. That is that Laena's kids are not actually Daemon's. 

I don't really see it. I know we haven't seen much of Laena, but she doesn't really seem the type. The girls were seemingly conceived very early in their marriage and Laena has indicated being very much in love with him at that time, and she still seems attached to him in this episode (she did acknowledge that she's aware she wasn't HIS first choice, . Also, she gave the impression of feeling pretty isolated in a foreign land and wanting to go home, not attached to some unnamed lover.

I honestly don't know what the point of the "Daemon is maybe impotent" angle is, but I feel like it's probably hasty and sloppy in practice, lol. I doubt this show has a classic "OTP", GoT did not, but it's clear even in this episode where they didn't interact that a primary, if not THE primary, current relationship this season with a romantic angle (in all it's twisted and messed up glory) is Daemon and Rhaenyra. They made a footnote of these two other important relationships with Laena and Harwin respectively and I spec it's to put Rhaenyra and Daemon back on a path to interact again ASAP. Somehow I just doubt we'll never see them have a sexual relationship. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

After Viserys died I went back to the first ep to see him young and healthy (the wig does not suit Paddy!). And I realized that Rhynaera is the opening narrator and she sounds like she is talking about the end of her house. Or the end of their greatest period. 10 adult dragons. 100 years of relative peace. So whatever happens, a  mature, mournful Rhynaera begins the story. I wonder if season 2 will open with Alicent's voice. Or Aemond's.  I like him for King eventually.  He is ruthless but not cruel. Just don't serve him roast pig. (It would be a bit funny if that's a lifelong trigger for him, the one thing that makes him lose his obvious control).

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37 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

He is ruthless but not cruel. Just don't serve him roast pig. (It would be a bit funny if that's a lifelong trigger for him, the one thing that makes him lose his obvious control).

If his cousins and brother are all dead, he would probably eat it happily...

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1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

Or Aemond's.  I like him for King eventually.  He is ruthless but not cruel.

I don't think we know enough about adult Aemond yet to say he isn't cruel. He had the capacity for cruelty as a child, based on his encounter with the four kids before he lost the eye, and he's still petty about the experience as an adult if the pig is any indication. He's not as carelessly, broadly cruel as Aegon from what we've seen, in that Aegon will rape any servant girl unfortunate enough to be alone in his presence. And he seems to care more for Helaena than Aegon does. But that doesn't mean he's not cruel. He hasn't been in a situation yet as an adult where he could have been cruel to someone less powerful than he is and chose another option. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well the finale sort of ruined my Aemond isn't cruel idea. But if The Hound and Jaime had redemption arcs, I think there's hope. I need to root for someone on a personal level and Jace is boring. Maybe Joffrey will improve but since there are no more time jumps allegedly he is still a kid. 

I think Daemon's daughters could be good if they ever got dialogue! So far they're just...there. Both actors have onscreen presence. They just need some scenes where they speak and have opinions and do things.

I would not be mad if some of the other Doctors showed up. I think Eccelston would make an amazing Mad Monk type. 

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