Dark Winds - General Discussion

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I wish Joe knew blondie is dead. It would be hard to rest, not knowing.

Did we get any closure on what Vines did with the body, or are we just supposed to assume it was left to rot in the backyard?  😐

[possibilities]

We saw him driving his car back to the house and getting out of it with a shovel, but we didn't see where he dug the hole. I think it was pretty clear he moved and buried the body... somewhere.

The shovel scene I'm referring to is was the scene when Chee showed up and Vines gave the shovel to a minion-- Chee's eyes noted he shovel but he didn't pursue it-- and they exchanged words and Vines gave Chee money "for nothing".

49 minutes ago, Nashville said:

In response I will simply say I believe you DRASTICALLY underestimate the distrust - and in some cases, outright animosity - many American Indians have for the white man’s government (especially the federal side) and its institutions (such as the courts system), and leave it at that.

I think this distrust and animosity is very well earned and completely justified.

[MartyQui]

And really...aren't tribal lands supposed to be a separate nation with a negotiated treaty?  That's why you can have casinos that aren't subject to state law, correct?  I'm somewhat ignorant on the issue, but it seems like tribal law would be equally valid for crimes committed on tribal lands.  I don't think Native Americans gave up their rule of law completely when they negotiated treaties to cover things like federal coverage for healthcare, etc.  I'd be interested to learn more.

[Gobi]

From a quick search it appears that Tribal Courts only have criminal jurisdiction over Native Americans for crimes committed on the reservation. They can arrest and detain non-Native Americans for delivery to State or Federal authorities.

[nachomama]

True. Any murder is federal. Indigenous or white. If you steal something from a store they can arrest and charge you. If you were biligana they send you to white people court. If your cows/sheep/ livestock get out and are all over you pretty much can’t call anyone. Just hope they come home. 

[Dowel Jones]

AMC put out an extra episode tonight, called 'Show Me More, Season 2'; one of those behind the scenes looks.  It was kind of interesting.  It was a bit unnerving to see the actor playing Colton Wolf (Blondie's real name) as a personable, funny kind of guy.  Kiowa Gordon (Chee) parts his hair opposite from his character.  The most revealing thing was that the director had to confer with Zahn McClarnon (Leaphorn) quite a bit over the ending, as it went against all Navajo culture regarding murder.

[Nashville]

12 hours ago, MartyQui said:

And really...aren't tribal lands supposed to be a separate nation with a negotiated treaty?  That's why you can have casinos that aren't subject to state law, correct? 

“Supposed to be” being the operative phrase here; past and present history is rife with examples of reservation lands being subject to jurisdictional conflict between tribes and the government, however, both federal AND state.  In recent years (concurrent with the rise of Indian gaming) the state governments actually tend to be the more fractious; they either want to block construction of tribal casinos entirely, or they want to tax the revenue stream - and they can get downright ugly about it.

 

12 hours ago, MartyQui said:

I'm somewhat ignorant on the issue, but it seems like tribal law would be equally valid for crimes committed on tribal lands.  I don't think Native Americans gave up their rule of law completely when they negotiated treaties to cover things like federal coverage for healthcare, etc.  I'd be interested to learn more.

Tribal sovereignty law is a specialty all its own - and when the lawyers themselves are American Indians / Alaska Natives, they can be pretty damn passionate about it. 😉

[Daff]

I choose to look at the “Long Walk” a bit differently. Given the reverse situation, Joe, Bern, and even tenderfoot Jim could have survived the night and walked to help in the morning. It’s on Vines, and his arrogant ignorance that he chose to curl up and die of hypothermia.

[Daff]

I also saw the “More season 2” hour long episode and was thrilled at the end to see the one book I just read pictured. It’s really a good plot, with no dark evil (just greedy relatives). Looking forward to elements of this one (The Fallen Man) appear on screen. 

[MartyQui]

Thanks so much to Nachomama and Nashville for their comments on this forum…I have learned so much!

[possibilities]

On 9/8/2023 at 2:47 AM, Dowel Jones said:

The most revealing thing was that the director had to confer with Zahn McClarnon (Leaphorn) quite a bit over the ending, as it went against all Navajo culture regarding murder.

What I got from the behind the scenes show was that the original ending was something Z McC objected to, but the one they actually filmed was based on his own suggestion.

Edited September 9, 2023 by possibilities
fix typo

[nachomama]

Oooh I gotta watch this behind the scenes! 

14 hours ago, Daff said:

I choose to look at the “Long Walk” a bit differently. Given the reverse situation, Joe, Bern, and even tenderfoot Jim could have survived the night and walked to help in the morning. It’s on Vines, and his arrogant ignorance that he chose to curl up and die of hypothermia.

I would agree with that. And I don’t know how all native cultures view murder, Zahn McClarnon himself is not Navajo, he just plays one on tv. I like that they respect his input. But a Navajo thing is to not say the name of the deceased, meaning when he got upset at dinner and accidently called jim chee “joe”. Throughout the show he Refered to “my son” never by name. You are pretty much only pronouns after you die. They also don’t keep things. Like making the belt buckle into a feather. Or the jacket that he buried. When you died you were supposed to set the hogan on fire and all your things go with you. (For obvious reasons that’s not practiced too much anymore)  You aren’t supposed to be in a house where a person died. My friend Marcy got in trouble for coming to my house the night my mom died (although my mom didn’t die in our house, it was still a house of a deceased person) there were some anxious aunties that kept trying to get her to leave. And my mom had a sweater that Marcy kept for years when you weren’t supposed to keep personal items. But she’s a modern Navajo and she liked my mom just like Joe jrs girlfriend shouldn’t have kept the jacket. 

[possibilities]

On 8/29/2023 at 8:22 PM, mythoughtis said:

Because he ghosted her between  last season and this one. He dated ( slept) around  and ignored her and now he wants to hook up after  Joe sent her to the hospital to get his statement after he was injured

I've been trying to remember this, and what I thought happened is that she was mad that he was FBI [which I totally understand-- and he didn't even tell her, so he was essentially living a double life while with her], and since she wasn't willing to be with him because of that, he started having random hook ups as his rebound response (the equivalent of going on a bender after being dumped).

I was actually on her side about this, because having a secret life in the FBI would be a huge betrayal. But her desire to join Border Patrol completely obliterated my sense that she is anti-feds, and obliterates her moral high ground wrt to Chee, in my opinion.

Maybe I just misunderstood the timing, and he actually did leave and then come back and have random hook ups, rather than that she dumped him. But it makes no sense to me if that's the case, because he seemed to always want to be with her and I thought he stayed to a large extent because of her. It certainly wasn't because he wanted to work for Leaphorn rather than the FBI.

[nachomama]

I do think she’s a big reason why he stayed. I don’t think he didn’t not want to work for leaphorn but I do think he def did not want to work for fbi anymore. Obviously he was working for evil fbi guy but aside from that the fbi didn’t actually care about anything but the money in the robbery. No matter the murders that occurred as a result. He was disillusioned with the whole system.  But a terrible terrible private investigator. Ha. And he got no game. Elvis shoulda snapped up manuelito he’d probly be alive today…or is he?  Next season on dark winds, Elvis is found living on the rez. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by nachomama

[possibilities]

Yeah, I do agree he was disillusioned by the FBI. But if he wanted to work for Leaphorn, why didn't he? I never really understood why he didn't. My only thought was that he didn't want to have to be that close to Manuelito every day after she dumped him. Too painful. But he didn't go so far away that he would never see her again, either.

I am chuckling over your Elvis theories. 

 

[Superb Owl]

But what happened to the 3-horned sheep that was kept in the jail cell?

Only half-joking. I'm sure there was a symbolism there, but I'm not sure what it was. Does anyone have any answers/theories? Was that an element in the books?

 

 

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, Superb Owl said:

But what happened to the 3-horned sheep that was kept in the jail cell?

Only half-joking. I'm sure there was a symbolism there, but I'm not sure what it was. Does anyone have any answers/theories? Was that an element in the books?

I think the sheep’s significance in the story line, such as it is, is part comic / part deeper:

1. Keep in mind Bern had just finished chewing out Hemp-head and was personally convinced his “an alien sheep bit off my fingers” story was little more than a drug-induced hallucination, right up until she found herself looking at the validation of his story - and it looking back at her. 😄
2. I expect Bern took the sheep “in custody” simply because without it in evidence, her coworkers would’ve believed Bern riiight about as much as Bern had initially believed the stoner.*
3. On the less-comic side of life, SheepGate perfectly illustrates the dead-endedness of Bern’s current career position which leads her to apply to Border Patrol.  Unless Bern makes a move, she can count on a career full of crap like sorting out drug-addled assault reports and livestock wrangling until whenever Joe decides to retire - and (considering promotion potential for females in law enforcement in the ’70s was hardly what anyone would consider optimal) possibly longer.
    

* Would this make the sheep a material witness - and if so, would the material in question be wool…?  😉

[meep.meep]

Just wanted to report that my DVR picked up a "making of Season 2" episode which is pretty good.  Don't know if it's available on streaming.

They don't explain the sheep.

[pasdetrois]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:20 PM, MartyQui said:

And really...aren't tribal lands supposed to be a separate nation with a negotiated treaty?

574 distinct Native American communities/people are officially recognized by the federal government and are considered sovereign nations. There are other tribes recognized only by states, and dozens of tribes are still seeking federal recognition (it takes forever). Seven tribes in Virginia were recognized about five years ago.

Not all federally-recognized tribes have treaties, but those that do have a stronger argument when certain rights are threatened. However, the 574 are shackled to a "trust relationship" with the federal government. They are sovereign, but thanks to the US Supreme Court's Marshall Trilogy the federal government acts as their trustee, responsible for managing tribal assets and generating income (e.g., leases for use of resources, like oil and gas) and providing critical services to the tribes (education, some law enforcement, health, etc.). This trustee environment is one reason why significant tension and conflict exist between tribes and the federal government today.

If a state doesn't criminally prohibit gaming, such as Nevada, then it has no authority to prohibit tribal casinos. Those states must negotiate with tribes on gaming and develop compacts (agreements). This arrangement is a kind of shared sovereignty. States can't impose gaming limits, but tribes must get state input.

I watch this show for exposure to the Navajo ways and environment. The show tries to have it both ways: showing us a distinctive cultural landscape that fosters harmony and tradition while having Navajo law officers run around like John Wayne. It's not just a departure from the Hillerman books - it's a notable departure from the Navajo culture and law enforcement reality. As other posters have said, Leaphorn does not act the way he is being portrayed on the show. And Chee is training to be a medicine man in the books, which is one reason why I object to his portrayal in the show. They treat him like a clueless doofus with White sensibilities.

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by pasdetrois

[nachomama]

I think when he left to go to fbi he tried to be as white as possible. If they’re going somewhere with this and having him re-ignite his tribal pursuits, that’s a journey for him. I don’t know that they’ve got the time to do that. AMC is another of those that gives these shows about 3 seasons unless they become cultural phenomenon. 
I think there were 2-3 hillerman movies made. With Adam beach as Jim chee and wes studi as Joe leaphorn. They were pretty good for a made for tv movie.  This past weekend was Navajo nation fair in window rock and megadeath played. I don’t know how I feel about that. Boys I went to high school with were very heavy metal with a side of country. Ac/dc was a favorite.  

[proserpina65]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:20 PM, MartyQui said:

And really...aren't tribal lands supposed to be a separate nation with a negotiated treaty?  That's why you can have casinos that aren't subject to state law, correct?  I'm somewhat ignorant on the issue, but it seems like tribal law would be equally valid for crimes committed on tribal lands.  I don't think Native Americans gave up their rule of law completely when they negotiated treaties to cover things like federal coverage for healthcare, etc.  I'd be interested to learn more.

They are but serious crimes are covered by outside agencies, not the local tribal authorities.  It's one thing Tony Hillerman always acknowledged in interviews - that Joe Leaphorn and Jim Chee wouldn't have been investigating the crimes he wrote about.

[proserpina65]

One thing I will credit this season with: it's made me start re-reading the book.  I'm not quite halfway through and it's already much better than the overly convoluted mess we got on tv.  Not sure I'm gonna stick around for season 3.

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, nachomama said:

 

I think when [Chee] left to go to fbi he tried to be as white as possible.

 

Undoubtedly; the late ‘60s / early ’70s were when Affirmative Action was just starting to get into its swing - which means (a) Chee was almost certainly a token hire regardless of his qualifications, (b) Chee was probably net head-on with a lot of resentment from the (hugely white) body of his coworkers, and (c) Chee undoubtedly found that downplaying his "Indian-ness" went a long way towards smoothing his path in the FBI, both with coworkers and in terms of future promotion potential.

[nachomama]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Undoubtedly; the late ‘60s / early ’70s were when Affirmative Action was just starting to get into its swing - which means (a) Chee was almost certainly a token hire regardless of his qualifications, (b) Chee was probably net head-on with a lot of resentment from the (hugely white) body of his coworkers, and (c) Chee undoubtedly found that downplaying his "Indian-ness" went a long way towards smoothing his path in the FBI, both with coworkers and in terms of future promotion potential.

Yep. And early 70’s were just barely coming off the forced residential schools where they quite literally tried to beat the Navajo out of you. Marcy’s parents both went to Utah for school (not forced like old days) and luckily got to come back to their fully Navajo families. Marcy was born in 1971 and got to learn to speak Navajo. It was fading. They tried to stamp it out and there is a resurgence. Between Marcy and her youngest sibling,  13 years they didn’t speak Navajo. My next door neighbor pretended not to speak Navajo.  She was ashamed of all things Navajo. She “understood” but didn’t speak Navajo and hated when they showed up at school twice a year with clothes for Navajo kids. You got a big clear garbage bag full of a big winter jacket, jeans underwear and necessities.  She hated it because it was Walmart clothes. Lots of families needed it, she did not.  Her dad and my dad worked together. Every day of her life she tried to be as white as possible.  

[Zaffy]

And we gonna get a 3rd season!! yay!!!

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/dark-winds-renewed-season-3-amc-1235593987/

[nachomama]

The eclipse stuff is legit. My friends today have cancelled soccer and weekend stuff to stay inside. Not that they won’t look outside or whatever but in Navajo they view an eclipse as the dying of the sun. They used to put a bowl of water outside a door or window to see the reflection of the sun come back. I didn’t know that was a real thing. 

[nachomama]

Check this out! 

 

[Orcinus orca]

6 hours ago, nachomama said:

Check this out! 

Looks wonderful...but I don't have any way to watch it. Hopefully it is released to some other streaming service some day.

[nachomama]

Same. I’ll wait. We can learn how to be Joe leaphorn 

[nachomama]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyq41SxJl2A/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
 

check it out. Jim chee sighting 

[pasdetrois]

Interesting that my HBO/MAX does not offer the Class 57 series to me when I log in. I'll have to track it down in the lineup.

[sagittarius sue]

1 hour ago, pasdetrois said:

Interesting that my HBO/MAX does not offer the Class 57 series to me when I log in. I'll have to track it down in the lineup.

I found it on MAX, but I had to go through several categories before reaching Documentaries and then paging down to Popular Documentaries.  I suggest using the Search line for Popular Documentaries.

[Daff]

Since season two ended, I’ve been blowing through the books and find them highly engaging. I’ve read the first 8 so far and I don’t mind that the Dark Winds writers randomly gathered, picked, and chose elements for their plot lines. It’s all good storytelling. 

[nachomama]

I saw a casting call posted for 60ish years old Navajo man emphasis on speaking fluent Navajo for dark winds season 3.  Yeehaw. Also this was posted for the rules for the eclipse today. I know my friend who works at the BIA school they’re off today. But I do recall having an eclipse when I was in 4th grade-ish and we didnt have the day off and there were Navajo kids in my class and we made pin hole cameras. Which were actually garbage. I couldn’t see jack squat. I’m not sure if they had the Navajo kids go back inside or what. I’m too old to remember anything other than the stupid camera. 

[AnimeMania]

Dark Winds Season 3 Casts Jenna Elfman, Bruce Greenwood and Others

Production has started on Dark Winds Season 3 which picks up six months after the events of Season 2 and follows Joe Leaphorn (Zahn McClarnon) and Jim Chee (Kiowa Gordon) as they investigate the disappearance of two boys, with only an abandoned bicycle and blood-stained patch of ground left in their wake.

Meanwhile, Bernadette Manuelito (Jessica Matten) attempts to settle into her new life 500 miles from home with the Border Patrol, but stumbles across a conspiracy involving human and drug smuggling with far-reaching implications.

Deanna Allison returns as Emma Leaphorn

A. Martinez returns as Acting Chief Gordo Sena of the Scarborough Police Department 

New Cast Members:

Jenna Elfman as Sylvia Washington, a FBI Special Agent 

Bruce Greenwood as Tom Spenser

Raoul Max Trujillo as Budge

Tonantzin Carmelo as Eleanda Garza, a Border Patrol Agent

Alex Meraz as Ivan Muños, a Border Patrol Agent 

Terry Serpico as Ed Henry, a Senior Chief of Border Patrol 

Phil Burke as Michael Halsey

Christopher Heyerdahl as Dr Reynolds 

Derek Hinkey as Shorty Bowlegs

[Daff]

Can’t wait for season 3. I’ve finished all the books written by Tony H. and just finished the first Leaphorn/Chee written by his daughter, Anne. She has continued the great storytelling he started. Are there enough fans of the books to add a book discussion topic?

[Darkwinds]

Hey is there anyone who could help me find this still, but like the official released version? AMC used it to announce Dark Winds being put up for your consideration for the Emmys, but I can’t find this still anywhere.

[Darkwinds]

Also I always read the Bern/Jim relationship as, they never dated in season one, cause Joe brought up that he shouldn’t date her without telling her he’s FBI first. So they didn’t date but there was mutual feelings, and after she finds out he and Joe lied that really hurt her & cooled down whatever relationship they could have had (then in the s1 finale he comes back for her, and in s2 she’s still pissed he lied but chooses to forgive him cause she still cares for him). Like he again, comes back for her, and yeah he’s been sleeping around to maybe try & get over her but they both still care for each other.

But again, the timing isn’t right! At least this time they kissed and recognized their feelings for each other before she left!

 

Season 3 looks to be based off The Sinister Pig and Dance Hall of the Dead going off the description and new cast members. Maybe they’ll be engaged by the end of season 3 like they were in The Sinister Pig book.

 

 

[Darkwinds]

Guys! We’re getting a Dark Winds spinoff miniseries! 
 

“Jim Chee: Private Eye

 

A spin-off from the world of Dark Winds, this six-part shortform scripted noir series followes Jim Chee (Kiowa Gordon) as he takes on his first case as a reservation private detective, in an homage to films like REAR WINDOW with a nod to noir comedies like THE BIG LEBOWSKI. Written by Lauren Augarten and Shandton Williams II from the Dark Winds writer’s room, overseen by director Steven Paul Judd, Navajo story consultant Rhiana Yazzie, and showrunner John Wirth.”

guessing it’s set between seasons 1 and 2, as he’s no longer a PI by the end of season 2 but it looks fun!

[sugarbaker design]

On 11/8/2023 at 10:43 AM, Daff said:

Since season two ended, I’ve been blowing through the books and find them highly engaging. I’ve read the first 8 so far and I don’t mind that the Dark Winds writers randomly gathered, picked, and chose elements for their plot lines. It’s all good storytelling. 

I read them when they came out a million years ago, I still re-read A Thief of Time occasionally, it's my favorite.  It's really unique to write a series detective for 3 novels, then another 3 novels for a second series detective, only to have them team up for the remainder of the novels.  Leaphorn and Chee were fully formed characters by the time they met up in Skinwalkers.  Hillerman broke the rules.

[possibilities]

I've read a few of the Hillerman books over the years but I can't remember which ones. I'm pretty sure Skinwalkers was one of them, but the other titles have completely faded form my mind.

I'm worried that if I read them now, it will mess with my viewing of the TV series. But I'm thinking about doing it anyway, starting with the first one and then reading them in order insterad of jumping around like I did before.

It's just that people who read books inevitably have complaints about video adaptations, and I like the show, so I don't know....

[sugarbaker design]

44 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I've read a few of the Hillerman books over the years but I can't remember which ones. I'm pretty sure Skinwalkers was one of them, but the other titles have completely faded form my mind.

I'm worried that if I read them now, it will mess with my viewing of the TV series. But I'm thinking about doing it anyway, starting with the first one and then reading them in order insterad of jumping around like I did before.

It's just that people who read books inevitably have complaints about video adaptations, and I like the show, so I don't know....

If it's any consolation, the first several novels are quite slim.  I have paperbacks that are less than 200 pp.  Hillerman's economy with words is legendary.

Edited June 5 by sugarbaker design

[Orcinus orca]

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

It's just that people who read books inevitably have complaints about video adaptations, and I like the show, so I don't know....

Read them and then firmly refuse to compare them.  It's like the Longmire books which are totally different than the series.  I just look at them as two completely different things except the characters have the same name.

[sugarbaker design]

42 minutes ago, Orcinus orca said:

Read them and then firmly refuse to compare them.  It's like the Longmire books which are totally different than the series.  I just look at them as two completely different things except the characters have the same name.

Agreed.  In the novels Chee is portrayed as a decent, reverent young man.  In the first episode of DW Chee callously speeds by a young family in a disabled car.  At that moment I decided the TV show is a bizarro universe of Hillerman's world.

Edited June 5 by sugarbaker design

[Daff]

On 6/5/2024 at 11:53 AM, sugarbaker design said:

I read them when they came out a million years ago, I still re-read A Thief of Time occasionally, it's my favorite.  It's really unique to write a series detective for 3 novels, then another 3 novels for a second series detective, only to have them team up for the remainder of the novels.  Leaphorn and Chee were fully formed characters by the time they met up in Skinwalkers.  Hillerman broke the rules.

Funny (strange), that the million years ago for you was around the same time I was working for the school district surrounding Shiprock NM. Although my colleges explained cultural mores to me, the why and the rich history was not included (they seemed not to know).  I wish I had known about Hillerman’s books at the time, because even just the first couple would have helped me better understand the students I saw (itinerant specialty, small groups, and individuals). I lived in Farmington, and my favorite treat was Saturday morning market just outside town-Navajo taco for breakfast!
 

 

[Daff]

On 6/5/2024 at 2:32 PM, possibilities said:

I've read a few of the Hillerman books over the years but I can't remember which ones. I'm pretty sure Skinwalkers was one of them, but the other titles have completely faded form my mind.

I'm worried that if I read them now, it will mess with my viewing of the TV series. But I'm thinking about doing it anyway, starting with the first one and then reading them in order insterad of jumping around like I did before.

It's just that people who read books inevitably have complaints about video adaptations, and I like the show, so I don't know....

When actors give great performances, I don’t quibble over the “Hollywood liberties” taken with storylines/plot. I enjoy both versions because it gives me a face (or some substance) to visualize while reading the source material. That’s just me, because I’m really not able to visualize facial features from written descriptions. Character, gesture, stance, no problem. Scenery descriptions as well-I can see these images as described. Seeing an actor play the role makes the book more appealing to me.

[nachomama]

16 hours ago, Daff said:

 I lived in Farmington, and my favorite treat was Saturday morning market just outside town-Navajo taco for breakfast!
 

 

NAVAJO TACO FOR THE WIN!

I just got back (I live on the east coast but born in Farmington, grew up Gallup-ish) and they had navajo tacos waiting for me when I got there. sweet jesus so fabulous.

Def hit home how real this is, my bff's mom (75) her dad died of lunch cancer when she was 10. They are JUST NOW settling with the mine about whether or not he got cancer from the mine. (of course he did) $14.000 plus 25k because she was 10. That's 65 years ago and his entire life is worth $38k. He spoke no english only went to the NHS doctor. all medical records destroyed. Nobody knows where he's buried. no way to prove he had no medical history prior, none of his 13 kids had cancer etc. everyone else gets $7k somehow because she was 10 she gets the extra but still took 65 years to get that. friggin unbelievable.

lung not lunch, won't let me edit. sigh

[Daff]

44 minutes ago, nachomama said:

NAVAJO TACO FOR THE WIN!

I just got back (I live on the east coast but born in Farmington, grew up Gallup-ish) and they had navajo tacos waiting for me when I got there. sweet jesus so fabulous.

Def hit home how real this is, my bff's mom (75) her dad died of lunch cancer when she was 10. They are JUST NOW settling with the mine about whether or not he got cancer from the mine. (of course he did) $14.000 plus 25k because she was 10. That's 65 years ago and his entire life is worth $38k. He spoke no english only went to the NHS doctor. all medical records destroyed. Nobody knows where he's buried. no way to prove he had no medical history prior, none of his 13 kids had cancer etc. everyone else gets $7k somehow because she was 10 she gets the extra but still took 65 years to get that. friggin unbelievable.

lung not lunch, won't let me edit. sigh

First, a happy emoji, then a sad (sorry) emoji (program doesn’t allow for mixed emotions, either).

[nachomama]

It just goes to show any of the women sterilized without consent or knowledge even have no recourse. No records. they didn't speak english (in many cases) they accepted what the doctor said.

[AnimeMania]

Dark Winds (and several other AMC Series) is going to be available on Netflix starting August 19, 2024.