S06.E07: Plan and Execution

[nodorothyparker]

I'm a sucker for conflicted/complex grayish characters, so whether a character is a "good" person or behaves the way a good person would often has very little to do with how much I like them. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd want to be best friends with them or have them over in real life. For me it's always about the writing -- is the character consistently written and does what they do make sense within that framework? Can I see how they got there? -- followed by the actor/portrayal. Kim meets those criteria for me, so I continue to like her even if at times watching her these last two seasons has taken on an almost horror movie-like quality where I feel like I should be watching her through my fingers.

It's kind of like the episodes where Jimmy was switching out the Mesa Verde documents and then switching them back to screw with Chuck. Of course we knew what he was doing was wrong. And illegal. And hurting his brother. But the writing was there and Odenkirk was really selling it. So I was rooting for him to get away with it.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm a sucker for conflicted/complex grayish characters, so whether a character is a "good" person or behaves the way a good person would often has very little to do with how much I like them. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd want to be best friends with them or have them over in real life. For me it's always about the writing -- is the character consistently written and does what they do make sense within that framework? Can I see how they got there? -- followed by the actor/portrayal.

This is basically me too. The writing is paramount, but a great performance sometimes is more important. I've read reviews of movies where the best thing the reviewer had to say was that so-and-so gave an outstanding performance, and I'd want to see the movie just to see that, even if the rest of it was just not much.

When you have a bad guy, you've got to have an actor who's charismatic, otherwise you wouldn't want to watch the character. Of course then you get viewers who are rooting for Tony Soprano and Walter White no matter how many horrible things they do.

[Eulipian 5k]

14 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

This raises a question I've had for a while:  Do people have to like a character in order to watch them? 

This was how film noir began as a genre. The flawed hero, finally breaking the White hat/ Black hat trope of the perfectly good hero/protagonist in movies. You see so many film noir touches in the show. I remember the Season 1 shots of Jimmy and Kim smoking next to the trash can at HHM, the heavy use of shadows and angles.

[qtpye]

11 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm a sucker for conflicted/complex grayish characters, so whether a character is a "good" person or behaves the way a good person would often has very little to do with how much I like them. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd want to be best friends with them or have them over in real life. For me it's always about the writing -- is the character consistently written and does what they do make sense within that framework? Can I see how they got there? -- followed by the actor/portrayal. Kim meets those criteria for me, so I continue to like her even if at times watching her these last two seasons has taken on an almost horror movie-like quality where I feel like I should be watching her through my fingers.

It's kind of like the episodes where Jimmy was switching out the Mesa Verde documents and then switching them back to screw with Chuck. Of course we knew what he was doing was wrong. And illegal. And hurting his brother. But the writing was there and Odenkirk was really selling it. So I was rooting for him to get away with it.

9 hours ago, peeayebee said:

This is basically me too. The writing is paramount, but a great performance sometimes is more important. I've read reviews of movies where the best thing the reviewer had to say was that so-and-so gave an outstanding performance, and I'd want to see the movie just to see that, even if the rest of it was just not much.

When you have a bad guy, you've got to have an actor who's charismatic, otherwise you wouldn't want to watch the character. Of course then you get viewers who are rooting for Tony Soprano and Walter White no matter how many horrible things they do.

8 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

This was how film noir began as a genre. The flawed hero, finally breaking the White hat/ Black hat trope of the perfectly good hero/protagonist in movies. You see so many film noir touches in the show. I remember the Season 1 shots of Jimmy and Kim smoking next to the trash can at HHM, the heavy use of shadows and angles.

What was really brilliant was that Chuck had been such an ass that you were rooting for Jimmy even though he was doing the wrong thing.

It was the opposite with Howard. You wanted Jimmy and Kim to fail because Howard, while flawed, did not deserve what was happening to him.

[juliet73]

I've enjoyed this show up to this season.  I don't understand why Kim and Jimmy wanted revenge on Howard?  Did they ever explain their reason for trying to ruin his life except that they thought it would be fun?  This entire storyline was so ridiculous and completely over the top that I felt like I was watching a different show!  IMO, they only brought Howard into the main plot because they needed a secondary character that could be easily killed off for "shock value", but wouldn't have any effect on the future storylines.  I knew as soon as Howard showed up to the condo, he wouldn't be leaving alive.

At this point, I'm just watching for Gus and Mike, etc.  I like the calm, methodic, calculating slow burn storyline these characters bring to the table. It's the complete opposite of the chaotic and bumbling mess that is Jimmy and Kim.  

I miss Nacho.  

[scenario]

8 hours ago, juliet73 said:

I've enjoyed this show up to this season.  I don't understand why Kim and Jimmy wanted revenge on Howard?  Did they ever explain their reason for trying to ruin his life except that they thought it would be fun?  This entire storyline was so ridiculous and completely over the top that I felt like I was watching a different show!  IMO, they only brought Howard into the main plot because they needed a secondary character that could be easily killed off for "shock value", but wouldn't have any effect on the future storylines.  I knew as soon as Howard showed up to the condo, he wouldn't be leaving alive.

At this point, I'm just watching for Gus and Mike, etc.  I like the calm, methodic, calculating slow burn storyline these characters bring to the table. It's the complete opposite of the chaotic and bumbling mess that is Jimmy and Kim.  

I miss Nacho.  

People are not always logical. People in the real world do things that don't make any sense on a regular basis. People in the real world pretty regularly go way over the top in their hatred or love. Why can't a character in a show do the same thing?

It's not Kim and Jimmy who want to destroy Howard, its Kim. Jimmy is going along with the plan because he loves her. 

To me, Kim from the first season seemed very tightly wound. In the first season Kim seemed like the type person who had a plan and was sticking to it. Howard repeatedly threw a monkey wrench in her plans. She ended up hating him. He was the incompetent person who was raised well above his skill level because he was born into the right family who was standing in the way of more competent people.

I think they could have explained Kim's motivation better but BCS  expects people to think for themselves. They expect people to take their hints and put things together themselves. Way too many American shows dumb thing down so that a 5 year old understands them. I'm glad BCS doesn't. Sometimes that means that they don't explain every nuance of every plot point completely. I'm fine with that. 

[Lalo Lives]

Way too many American shows dumb thing down so that a 5 year old understands them. I'm glad BCS doesn't. Sometimes that means that they don't explain every nuance of every plot point completely. I'm fine with that. 

I agree with this.

Many procedural shows explain everything. Kind of like Tom Hanks' character in the Da Vinci Code  franchise.

Or some of the ridiculous crap like the various CSI, FBI, NCIS blah blah blah shows with bulletproof heroes, dudes with muscles, white teeth, women with nice bodies, 22 year olds who are in senior positions within law enforcement....in the spacious lab/conference room environment with tech that would melt a STAR WARS command ship.

(OF course they have the requisite nerd, fat guy, disabled, shy person doing the "chair" work behind the scenes when the beauties are out kicking ass. This person offers the clue, the one tidbit that they need to crack the case.)

Basically American TV has made a cottage industry of creating shows with the depth of a Michael Bay production.

BCS and BB have none of that which makes them, if not more realistic, more real-ish.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Lalo Lives
Schmelling & gremmar

[juliet73]

3 hours ago, scenario said:

I think they could have explained Kim's motivation better but BCS  expects people to think for themselves. They expect people to take their hints and put things together themselves. Way too many American shows dumb thing down so that a 5 year old understands them. I'm glad BCS doesn't. Sometimes that means that they don't explain every nuance of every plot point completely. I'm fine with that. 

I agree about shows being dumbed down and I do like that BCS knows it's audience can figure out what is going on.  I was just confused about Kim's motivation. I figured I might have missed something or forgot.

IMO, I would have rather seen Lalo kill someone who affected Kim and Jimmy more than Howard - someone unexpected like Irene or Francesca, for example. 

[gallimaufry]

The show is brilliant and certainly shows tremendous intelligence but that doesn't mean that deflects all criticisms.  I do think it seriously risks overstepping from having characters that are mysterious to having them be flat-out opaque and there's a tough line to straddle there.  Also, listening to Tom Schnauz on Gold Derby (607 spoilers) explain how they hoped the audience would react to this scheme -- i.e. that they would enjoy the ride of seeing Jimmy and Kim's scam and only feel bad for Howard belatedly -- I just feel they completely misread how invested people are (at least if this board is a barometer) in Howard.  I think this plot could have worked with a different figure, even a broadly sympathetic one like Kevin Wachtell.

I also note that the show has been very coincidence heavy of late.  Vince Gilligan's maxim is always that a coincidence that gets the characters into trouble is fine but one that gets them out of trouble is a cheat and that's fine up to a point but generally you want the characters' fates determined by their actions, not happenstance.  But two consecutive episodes ending with coincidences is... conspicuous.

[Cinnabon]

29 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

The show is brilliant and certainly shows tremendous intelligence but that doesn't mean that deflects all criticisms.  I do think it seriously risks overstepping from having characters that are mysterious to having them be flat-out opaque and there's a tough line to straddle there.  Also, listening to Tom Schnauz on Gold Derby (607 spoilers) explain how they hoped the audience would react to this scheme -- i.e. that they would enjoy the ride of seeing Jimmy and Kim's scam and only feel bad for Howard belatedly -- I just feel they completely misread how invested people are (at least if this board is a barometer) in Howard.  I think this plot could have worked with a different figure, even a broadly sympathetic one like Kevin Wachtell.

I also note that the show has been very coincidence heavy of late.  Vince Gilligan's maxim is always that a coincidence that gets the characters into trouble is fine but one that gets them out of trouble is a cheat and that's fine up to a point but generally you want the characters' fates determined by their actions, not happenstance.  But two consecutive episodes ending with coincidences is... conspicuous.

I didn’t find Kevin even slightly sympathetic. 

[scenario]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

The show is brilliant and certainly shows tremendous intelligence but that doesn't mean that deflects all criticisms.  I do think it seriously risks overstepping from having characters that are mysterious to having them be flat-out opaque and there's a tough line to straddle there.  Also, listening to Tom Schnauz on Gold Derby (607 spoilers) explain how they hoped the audience would react to this scheme -- i.e. that they would enjoy the ride of seeing Jimmy and Kim's scam and only feel bad for Howard belatedly -- I just feel they completely misread how invested people are (at least if this board is a barometer) in Howard.  I think this plot could have worked with a different figure, even a broadly sympathetic one like Kevin Wachtell.

I also note that the show has been very coincidence heavy of late.  Vince Gilligan's maxim is always that a coincidence that gets the characters into trouble is fine but one that gets them out of trouble is a cheat and that's fine up to a point but generally you want the characters' fates determined by their actions, not happenstance.  But two consecutive episodes ending with coincidences is... conspicuous.

I never really rooted for Jimmy and Kim in any of their scams. There's just a difference in how sorry I was for the victim. 

[peeayebee]

I generally always root for people in movies/tv when they're planning their heist or scam or whatever. There's something, well, you know -- I love it when a plan comes together. I remember with the original 'Day of the Jackal' I was amazed at how much I wanted the Jackal to succeed in assassinating Charles DeGaulle. Of course I knew he wouldn't, but it's simply satisfying to see everything come together.

I felt the same way about Jimmy and Kim's scam against Howard. Of course, once it was taking place in the conference room, I felt bad for Howard, though I was still invested in seeing it all work as J&K planned. I'm sure not all viewers felt bad at that point. But when Lalo shot him, I would think that most viewers were horrified, and perhaps even ashamed for enjoying the scam so much. 

[Lalo Lives]

gallimaufry,

Thanks for the podzoomcast thing Gold Derby etc.

Procedures and process of showmaking are of interest to me and others I'm sure.

How the illusion is created is almost better than the illusion in many cases.

For the record, I don't think BB and BCS are without fault.

It is just that, compared to the babes, bombs, biceps, and bullets shows that litter tv, these are a nice change.

I have, by law, relatives who think XXX (Vin Diesel), the Fast & Furious series, John Wick and GI Joe are Oscar worthy.

They would be barely treading water watching BB or BCS.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Lalo Lives
Grammar

[Cinnabon]

27 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I generally always root for people in movies/tv when they're planning their heist or scam or whatever. There's something, well, you know -- I love it when a plan comes together. I remember with the original 'Day of the Jackal' I was amazed at how much I wanted the Jackal to succeed in assassinating Charles DeGaulle. Of course I knew he wouldn't, but it's simply satisfying to see everything come together.

I felt the same way about Jimmy and Kim's scam against Howard. Of course, once it was taking place in the conference room, I felt bad for Howard, though I was still invested in seeing it all work as J&K planned. I'm sure not all viewers felt bad at that point. But when Lalo shot him, I would think that most viewers were horrified, and perhaps even ashamed for enjoying the scam so much. 

I felt the same way, exactly as the writers planned. Of course, it was horrifying what happened to Howard in the end. 

[Lalo Lives]

But two consecutive episodes ending with coincidences is... conspicuous.

--------

I'm not disputing this at all, but I'm drawing a blank on the coincidences in question.

Could you refresh my memory?

Thanks

[juliet73]

I never rooted for Kim and Jimmy.  Jimmy alone, yes, but not with Kim.  Sadly, Jimmy accepted the fact he was always going to be the one with the questionable past who was never going to live up to Chuck's professional reputation. But I always wanted him to win because even though he was shady, he was heartfelt and really cared about his clients, coworkers and friends.  Chuck, Howard and Kim were on the "right" side of the law, but they always came across so cold, insincere and fake.  However, as the series went on, I felt Howard became more likeable because he became more vulnerable.  I guess I'm one of the few that just didn't like the scam against Howard storyline.  Kim and Jimmy were willing to risk everything for what? What was their end game? 

Just like Jimmy, I rooted for Nacho too.  Even though he did bad things, he was remorseful, ashamed and didn't want to be a disappointment to his dad anymore. 

I like to see character growth which I think happened with Jimmy, Howard and Nacho, etc.  Kim just became a horrible person. Hopefully, she and her stupid ponytail will hit the bricks soon!

[Cinnabon]

45 minutes ago, juliet73 said:

I never rooted for Kim and Jimmy.  Jimmy alone, yes, but not with Kim.  Sadly, Jimmy accepted the fact he was always going to be the one with the questionable past who was never going to live up to Chuck's professional reputation. But I always wanted him to win because even though he was shady, he was heartfelt and really cared about his clients, coworkers and friends.  Chuck, Howard and Kim were on the "right" side of the law, but they always came across so cold, insincere and fake.  However, as the series went on, I felt Howard became more likeable because he became more vulnerable.  I guess I'm one of the few that just didn't like the scam against Howard storyline.  Kim and Jimmy were willing to risk everything for what? What was their end game? 

Just like Jimmy, I rooted for Nacho too.  Even though he did bad things, he was remorseful, ashamed and didn't want to be a disappointment to his dad anymore. 

I like to see character growth which I think happened with Jimmy, Howard and Nacho, etc.  Kim just became a horrible person. Hopefully, she and her stupid ponytail will hit the bricks soon!

Nacho did more than “bad things.” Kim had no plan to cause anyone ‘s death. 

[peeayebee]

9 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

But two consecutive episodes ending with coincidences is... conspicuous.

--------

I'm not disputing this at all, but I'm drawing a blank on the coincidences in question.

Could you refresh my memory?

Thanks

I think one the OP was referring to was Lalo showing up when Howard was there.* I'm not sure what the other was.

* I don't think this was a bad coincidence. Character-wise, it made sense for both of them to be there when they were. Both plots were taking place at the same time, so I have no problem with their lives converging.

[scenario]

8 hours ago, juliet73 said:

I never rooted for Kim and Jimmy.  Jimmy alone, yes, but not with Kim.  Sadly, Jimmy accepted the fact he was always going to be the one with the questionable past who was never going to live up to Chuck's professional reputation. But I always wanted him to win because even though he was shady, he was heartfelt and really cared about his clients, coworkers and friends.  Chuck, Howard and Kim were on the "right" side of the law, but they always came across so cold, insincere and fake.  However, as the series went on, I felt Howard became more likeable because he became more vulnerable.  I guess I'm one of the few that just didn't like the scam against Howard storyline.  Kim and Jimmy were willing to risk everything for what? What was their end game? 

Just like Jimmy, I rooted for Nacho too.  Even though he did bad things, he was remorseful, ashamed and didn't want to be a disappointment to his dad anymore. 

I like to see character growth which I think happened with Jimmy, Howard and Nacho, etc.  Kim just became a horrible person. Hopefully, she and her stupid ponytail will hit the bricks soon!

Kim was always a tough and hard person emotionally. That's a fairly common trait among successful people. Chuck was also a tough and hard person so I'm not surprised that Jimmy was attracted to Kim. Jimmy early on was more warm and fuzzy.

Jimmy was attracted to tough as nails lawyer Kim because she was what he wanted to be. Kim was attracted to life of the party can talk anybody into anything Jimmy because that what she always wanted to be until it got her into trouble.

I liked Kim in the early seasons. Her turning bad was needed for the story line. Nacho wanted the money and power but he didn't want the moral cost to getting the money. I liked and disliked him for that. He felt like a good person deep down who took the easy but deadly path to riches. There's part of me that doesn't like people who want all the good things but none of the bad things that go with it. If you want the money and power that come from being a hard core criminal gives you, you need to give up the ethical values which hold you back. Walt knew that but Jesse never did. I never liked Jesse because of that. No half measures. Half measures in the criminal world get innocent people killed. Kim's plan against Howard was a half measure. 

[Constantinople]

15 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

But two consecutive episodes ending with coincidences is... conspicuous.

--------

I'm not disputing this at all, but I'm drawing a blank on the coincidences in question.

Could you refresh my memory?

Thanks

5 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I think one the OP was referring to was Lalo showing up when Howard was there.* I'm not sure what the other was.

* I don't think this was a bad coincidence. Character-wise, it made sense for both of them to be there when they were. Both plots were taking place at the same time, so I have no problem with their lives converging.

Perhaps the second was when Jimmy was a the liquor store at the same time as the mediator, so Jimmy saw the mediator had a broken arm.

[gallimaufry]

23 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I didn’t find Kevin even slightly sympathetic. 

He gave Kim a chance early on and he backed her multiple times.  We also know that he's a straight arrow in terms of his legal dealings (the only blemish being the Bitsui photo which was, as Saul says, "sins of the father").  Now there are plenty of ways he's unsympathetic - he inherited his position, he had no empathy for Acker, seemed willing to turn a blind eye to Kim's chronic overworking and his greed is apparent.  This is why the comeuppance he got in 506, while unethical, didn't feel like Howard's did.  But I still think until 503, we mostly saw Kevin in a favourable light and if he was dead on the rug we'd still feel the outcome was massively disproportionate, just not quite in the same way as with Howard. 

(I still think another reason why the S5 scam worked better, IMO at least, is that it was just a lot more watchable.  You had a massive great scene of Saul David-and-Goliathing his way through with mouth and nerves - both in the 505 montage and the 506 court scene.  This plan didn't involve his major superpower.  Even the Coushatta scam, which is probably closest to this one in terms of being hands-off, involved Odenkirk's southern accent.  Across the 7 episodes, only 501 really hinged on his gift for the gab).

Yes, the two coincidences were the liquor store meeting and Lalo and Howard visiting Jimmy on the same night at the same hour weeks after Lalo's faked death.  I don't mind either of these coincidences individually but two of them on the bounce feels a little too comfortable.  In particular, the 606 one could have been easily solved if Jimmy had planned to scope the judge out to make sure there were no last minute changes and even the 607 one could have been tied together if Lalo's thought process had been triggered not by the cockroach but hearing perhaps some kind of radio news piece about a settlement in the Sandpiper case with a mention of the local lawyer now trading under the name Saul Goodman.  It's not the end of the world but it does feel inelegant in a show that is usually anything but.

To be clear, I think the show is absolutely incredible and beyond first rate.  That these kinds of things are the problems reflects mainly what incredible standards the writing has reached. 

[Cinnabon]

If Kevin had been popped by Lalo the way Howard was, my reaction would’ve been “oops.” 😂. 

[Lalo Lives]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

If Kevin had been popped by Lalo the way Howard was, my reaction would’ve been “oops.” 😂. 

Well, he's a side-sitter, and we know what that means.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

Yes, the two coincidences were the liquor store meeting...

Yeah, while the Lalo/Howard meet-up didn't bother me in the least, the liquor store scene did. I wish the writers had Jimmy see him in some other circumstance. I'm trying to remember.. The judge came to town just for the mediation and then was going back home, right? I'm not sure how Jimmy could have run into him. 

[Ailianna]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

if Lalo's thought process had been triggered not by the cockroach but hearing perhaps some kind of radio news piece about a settlement in the Sandpiper case with a mention of the local lawyer now trading under the name Saul Goodman.

But that's a convenient coincidence too, that he should happen to hear a broadcast that happens to mention a settlement that hasn't been finalized and refers to the new name of a lawyer who isn't even involved anymore. A lot more of a stretch, in my opinion. 

I think Lalo going to the condo at some point was inevitable and I could buy Howard going. The timing was the only coincidence I saw. 

I agree though that the liquor store would have been better if Saul had some other way of getting that information.

[scenario]

6 hours ago, Ailianna said:

But that's a convenient coincidence too, that he should happen to hear a broadcast that happens to mention a settlement that hasn't been finalized and refers to the new name of a lawyer who isn't even involved anymore. A lot more of a stretch, in my opinion. 

I think Lalo going to the condo at some point was inevitable and I could buy Howard going. The timing was the only coincidence I saw. 

I agree though that the liquor store would have been better if Saul had some other way of getting that information.

It is a coincidence but if both Saul and the Judge are getting a bottle to celebrate, Saul for his maybe victory and the judge for a paycheck, the liquor store closest to the court house wouldn't surprise me. It's a place they'd all know about.

But life is full of coincidences. It's not like one of them fell out of a plane and just happened to land on the plane flying underneath and was saved. 

Both Saul and Kim ended up moving to New Mexico, that's a coincidence as well. If they constantly did that it's a problem. But if they never did that, that also would be a problem because everyone has coincidences happen sometime. 

Added: The judge is from out of town. If he plans on buying a bottle of Liquor it doesn't seem strange that he'd buy one right near where he had worked before. He knows that part of the city. And Saul's office is only a short distance from the courthouse so if he's buying liquor that would also be the closest from him as well. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by scenario
additional info

[SimplexFish]

On 6/14/2022 at 8:24 AM, Lalo Lives said:

Or some of the ridiculous crap like the various CSI, FBI, NCIS blah blah blah shows with bulletproof heroes, dudes with muscles, white teeth, women with nice bodies, 22 year olds who are in senior positions within law enforcement....in the spacious lab/conference room environment with tech that would melt a STAR WARS command ship.

Yes! Totally

Edited June 17, 2022 by SimplexFish

[SimplexFish]

I never really understood the storyline of Nachos two live in girlfriends or whatever they were. I think Nacho was to smart, straight and frankly too cool to have two weirdo drug addicts like that living under his roof that could expose him at anytime.

[Cinnabon]

25 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

I never really understood the storyline of Nachos two live in girlfriends or whatever they were. I think Nacho was to smart, straight and frankly too cool to have two weirdo drug addicts like that living under his roof that could expose him at anytime.

They were all he could get. Most women don’t want any part of a dangerous life of selling toxic drugs.

[scenario]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

They were all he could get. Most women don’t want any part of a dangerous life of selling toxic drugs.

They were probably quite good at what he hired them for. They also knew he was their source of drugs. If he goes away, so do the drugs. 

[qtpye]

13 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

They were all he could get. Most women don’t want any part of a dangerous life of selling toxic drugs.

Nacho is the perfect example of how getting in the drug trade can really ruin your life and then end your life.

He could have accomplished so much had he just stayed on the straight and narrow.

I could see him opening his own successful business or going to college. He came from a loving family and could have had such a nice existence.

Instead, he became the unwitting pawn of two psychopaths.

He is the real tragedy of this series.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I could see him opening his own successful business or going to college

I'd like to think Nacho's could afford college paid for with legit money, by I wonder. Community college is cheaper, but if he wants a Bachelor's Degree that would still be 2 more years of college.

[scenario]

35 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'd like to think Nacho's could afford college paid for with legit money, by I wonder. Community college is cheaper, but if he wants a Bachelor's Degree that would still be 2 more years of college.

He could have taken the slow and steady way but he wanted it now like many people do. He was offered a lot of money for no where near as much effort as going to college would take and he grabbed it. I'm sure he was telling himself lies to make himself feel better. 

This is only temporary. I'm not really the bad guy. I'm doing it for my family, etc. 

It's a trap that a lot of people fall into. The quick and easy fix. Quick and easy is never quick and easy. There is always a cost. For Nacho, the cost was very, very high. 

People never learn that for some things, there just aren't any quick and easy fixes. 

[nodorothyparker]

Nacho was already in the drug trade when we met him in season 1. We see in his very first scenes that he's probably smarter than the average Salamanca flunky because he at least recognizes that killing even a fuck up attorney like Jimmy because he crossed paths with Tuco is likely to draw unwanted attention they don't need. But keeping his nose clean and working in his dad's business, maybe inheriting it someday, is already not enough for him. We never find out at what point he crossed that line or why, but we know he did. He never seemed to get much enjoyment out of it and in the end it cost him his life.

[SimplexFish]

20 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

They were all he could get. Most women don’t want any part of a dangerous life of selling toxic drugs.

"Most" is correct but PLENTY are left that want the bad boy, gangster BF with lots of cash and a good portion of those aren't weirdo tweekers like those two. 

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Nacho was already in the drug trade when we met him in season 1. We see in his very first scenes that he's probably smarter than the average Salamanca flunky because he at least recognizes that killing even a fuck up attorney like Jimmy because he crossed paths with Tuco is likely to draw unwanted attention they don't need. But keeping his nose clean and working in his dad's business, maybe inheriting it someday, is already not enough for him. We never find out at what point he crossed that line or why, but we know he did. He never seemed to get much enjoyment out of it and in the end it cost him his life.

Agreed... I just cant see Nacho with his school books tucked neatly under his arm, backwards baseball cap on his head over his horn rimmed glasses heading to an Economics class at the Albuquerque Junior College

[nodorothyparker]

14 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

"Most" is correct but PLENTY are left that want the bad boy, gangster BF with lots of cash and a good portion of those aren't weirdo tweekers like those two. 

I read the tweeked out girlfriends as one of several visible clues that Nacho wasn't getting much enjoyment out of his rising role in the drug cartel or his ill-gotten gains. He had the joyless ultra modern gray house?/condo? with generic race car art and the two girls who seemed to barely notice he was even there. (There was a great visual in one scene of his father standing outside his place looking at it with obvious distaste while you could also see Nacho through the window looking equally miserable.) That and his mostly flat effect suggested a man who was mostly going through the motions because he was trapped in this life and didn't know what else to do. If none of it really matters to you, might as well hook up with a couple of reasonably attractive girls who can be had for keeping them supplied.

[scenario]

25 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

"Most" is correct but PLENTY are left that want the bad boy, gangster BF with lots of cash and a good portion of those aren't weirdo tweekers like those two. 

Who knows what Nacho was looking for. I can see him wanting feminine companionship without any real type relationship. Loving someone makes you vulnerable. 

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Agreed... I just cant see Nacho with his school books tucked neatly under his arm, backwards baseball cap on his head over his horn rimmed glasses heading to an Economics class at the Albuquerque Junior College

Spoiler from The Wire

Spoiler

If Stringer Bell can attend Economics classes at the local community college, so can Nacho.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Constantinople

[Lalo Lives]

Generally I don't want anybody in the series to die. It just makes things less  interesting. There are fewer variables.

But that's unrealistic. Plus the traditional happy ending has been done a billion times. Yawn.

That said, in BB, I wanted Walt to not only die but be aware of the process and be shamed and embarrassed by it. I wanted him to feel his failure.

It's irrational for me to feel this way about a fictional being. But it is so.

Somebody mentioned Day of the Jackal and how they wanted Chacal to succeed even though they knew in real life the events did not happen. I was the same way. He was a captivating character.  A cruel machine-like killer, yet I rooted for him.

Similarly I was bummed when the shark died in Jaws, when the Terminator was reduced to metal bits, when Gus was killed.

All were charismatic in their own way and all needed to be dealt with.

I think our attachment to or hatred of a character (not the actor) is just a result of a good story, a good script, great acting, and other variables I can't pinpoint right now.

I WANTED to believe Tony did NOT die at the end of the Sopranos. Same reasons.

Walt was a grating, irritating, and brilliant egomaniacal character. He seemed to do things for different reasons compared to the bad guys listed above. They generally did what they did because it was business, for vengeance (justice), or because it was programmed into their DNA or, literally, wiring.

Walt did it for HIM.

I think that's the difference.

In any event, my feelings when watching or reading these stories are not particularly logical.

I will say this, Mark Margolis was the smoothest form of evil before he became wheelchair bound. He just oozed impending doom. Maybe that's why so many of us were hoping Nacho would somehow escape his situation.

There you go. A confession of my malleability.

Whatever happens to Kim, Jimmy, Lalo, Francesca, or anybody else in the series, I just hope it makes sense, is interesting, has a purpose for carrying the story, and is not done simply for shock value or to tie things up neatly.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Lalo Lives said:

Generally I don't want anybody in the series to die. It just makes things less  interesting. There are fewer variables.

But that's unrealistic. Plus the traditional happy ending has been done a billion times. Yawn.

That said, in BB, I wanted Walt to not only die but be aware of the process and be shamed and embarrassed by it. I wanted him to feel his failure.

It's irrational for me to feel this way about a fictional being. But it is so.

Somebody mentioned Day of the Jackal and how they wanted Chacal to succeed even though they knew in real life the events did not happen. I was the same way. He was a captivating character.  A cruel machine-like killer, yet I rooted for him.

Similarly I was bummed when the shark died in Jaws, when the Terminator was reduced to metal bits, when Gus was killed.

All were charismatic in their own way and all needed to be dealt with.

I think our attachment to or hatred of a character (not the actor) is just a result of a good story, a good script, great acting, and other variables I can't pinpoint right now.

I WANTED to believe Tony did NOT die at the end of the Sopranos. Same reasons.

Walt was a grating, irritating, and brilliant egomaniacal character. He seemed to do things for different reasons compared to the bad guys listed above. They generally did what they did because it was business, for vengeance (justice), or because it was programmed into their DNA or, literally, wiring.

Walt did it for HIM.

I think that's the difference.

In any event, my feelings when watching or reading these stories are not particularly logical.

I will say this, Mark Margolis was the smoothest form of evil before he became wheelchair bound. He just oozed impending doom. Maybe that's why so many of us were hoping Nacho would somehow escape his situation.

There you go. A confession of my malleability.

Whatever happens to Kim, Jimmy, Lalo, Francesca, or anybody else in the series, I just hope it makes sense, is interesting, has a purpose for carrying the story, and is not done simply for shock value or to tie things up neatly.

Walt, Gus, and Hector did have epic deaths! 

[Lalo Lives]

Old guy question here. What are these icons at bottom right of posts?

I see a heart (approval), a face (laughter/funny), a light bulb (I have no clue).

How do we access them? I see a grey heart also. Again, no idea.

I won't use them as I'm one of THOSE GUYS. Yes, never done a selfie and never used an emoji. Not even if Gus had a box cutter pointed at my neck.

No, I did not fight for the North or the South in the war. I'm old but not that old.

Just curious how things work and what they mean.

[scenario]

45 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

Old guy question here. What are these icons at bottom right of posts?

I see a heart (approval), a face (laughter/funny), a light bulb (I have no clue).

How do we access them? I see a grey heart also. Again, no idea.

I won't use them as I'm one of THOSE GUYS. Yes, never done a selfie and never used an emoji. Not even if Gus had a box cutter pointed at my neck.

No, I did not fight for the North or the South in the war. I'm old but not that old.

Just curious how things work and what they mean.

If you hover the mouse pointer over the heart, they pop up and a description is listed above the symbol. Most of them seem pretty obvious. One of the icon's says "sad". I assume that the comment made the person sad and so forth.

I'm also an older guy. I remember a time when calculators were new expensive gadgets. 

I have done selfies a few times and I use emoji's once in a while although It's not automatic like it is with younger people. There's no reason not to learn it. Sometimes emoji's are useful. Things like sarcasm doesn't come across in writing very well for example. 

[Lalo Lives]

scenario,

You are correct. I meant not to disparage those who use such things.

I'm just resisting all these newfangled contraptions like color tv, lektrisity, and soap.

My kids give me hell for being so backward.

[SimplexFish]

14 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

I will say this, Mark Margolis was the smoothest form of evil before he became wheelchair bound. He just oozed impending doom. Maybe that's why so many of us were hoping Nacho would somehow escape his situation.

I think Hector is much more an evil character now that he is in a wheelchair and non verbal. Before he just a big mouth hothead, threaten yes but only but intimidation.  Now he is truly sinister...

[SimplexFish]

12 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

I see a heart (approval), a face (laughter/funny), a light bulb (I have no clue).

I think the light bulb is just: "Great idea", "Enlightening", "Ahhhh, I see", "YES!"

[peeayebee]

And "Very informative!"

12 hours ago, scenario said:

I'm also an older guy. I remember a time when calculators were new expensive gadgets. 

Hey, get off my lawn!

[Ailianna]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:05 PM, scenario said:

It is a coincidence but if both Saul and the Judge are getting a bottle to celebrate, Saul for his maybe victory and the judge for a paycheck, the liquor store closest to the court house wouldn't surprise me. It's a place they'd all know about.

But life is full of coincidences. It's not like one of them fell out of a plane and just happened to land on the plane flying underneath and was saved. 

Both Saul and Kim ended up moving to New Mexico, that's a coincidence as well. If they constantly did that it's a problem. But if they never did that, that also would be a problem because everyone has coincidences happen sometime. 

Added: The judge is from out of town. If he plans on buying a bottle of Liquor it doesn't seem strange that he'd buy one right near where he had worked before. He knows that part of the city. And Saul's office is only a short distance from the courthouse so if he's buying liquor that would also be the closest from him as well. 

But the judge wasn't going to the courthouse. He was headed to HHM and it doesn't look like it's anywhere near the downtown courthouse area.

[PeterPirate]

12 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

But the judge wasn't going to the courthouse. He was headed to HHM and it doesn't look like it's anywhere near the downtown courthouse area.

True.  But there probably aren't that many high-end liquor stores that carry Zafiro Añejo.  A judge is going to head to the pricey side of town and avoid the riff-raff.  

On 6/19/2022 at 7:44 PM, scenario said:

I'm also an older guy. I remember a time when calculators were new expensive gadgets. 

My dad owned a slide-rule.  He made me practice using it while walking to school in the snow.  

[JudyObscure]

Well, I not only never took a selfie, I've never owned a cell phone, so I call Most Stubborn Anti-Techie for myself.

However, I love all the new emoji's.  They help me express my feelings about a post without copying and pasting it just to say "right on," or some other equally dated thing.