Sarah's Sober Second Thought Series: Watching The Watchers

[Primetimer]

Wesley arrives, Faith goes off the rails, and the Buffy Rewatch continues.

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[JennB]

Balthazar is a villain I usually forget about, and I feel bad about that when I do remember him. I wish he'd gotten more than one episode. "UNACCEPTABLE!"

Those overalls must have been passed around the WB's sets, because I remember one of the girls on 7th Heaven wearing them around the same time. And now that I've outed myself as a former 7th Heaven watcher, I'll go sit in the corner and think about what I've done.

[Lisin]

Buffy's enormous coat collection. Do they just store it in a third bedroom we never see?

 

Probably? I have to confess, I own a lot of coats. I mean a lot. I'm not allowed to buy any more. They fill an entire walk in closet and a bedroom closet plus at least two in the car at all times. Plus? I never ever wear coats. It's my worst vice. 

 

On topic? I really do like this set of episodes up until The Zeppo. That one bugged me back when it was new and hasn't stopped bugging me since. I'm also continually confused by Bangel, because before the whole learning about the curse thing I understood, but now? You know what can happen if he's happy... I just. I don't get it. 

[Loandbehold]

I like and still enjoy all these episodes. I think the reason Helpless may not stand up as well for some is because we've seen Buffy's reaction to Giles' betrayal. The first time, it was so heartbraking, but subsequent viewings just can't match that experience. Still, Buffy's inability to throw knives, getting thrown aside by the no-neck guy, and her "if I was at full Slayer strength, I'd be punning right now," are worth the price of admission. As is the final scene. I have also mentioned before how much I love Cordelia in the library agreeing to drive Buffy home. So understated, yet still so Queen C.

 

As for The Zeppo, I have to treat it as Xander's exaggerated view of how he sees the others treat him. When I do, the episode works. Otherwise, it doesn't make a lot of sense and I would find Cordelia over-the-top mean, which is a huge step back for her even if she is still taking out her anger on him for cheating on her.

 

Bad Girls and Consequences are great. I loved Balthazar for the reasons others have mentioned and I did buy Faith's turn. I'll miss Mr. Trick. I thought he made for a very good Moderate Bad. Between Slayerfest, laced candy, and coming thisclose to killing Buffy in Consequences, he gave her more problems than most other villains on the show.

[VCRTracking]

I confess that the lesbian subtext in "Bad Girls" went completely over my head the first time I watched it!

 

Always loved "Consequences" and how dark Faith had gone "Safe words are for wusses." Whoa. Also loved the reveal when Angel said "Second best." Buffy going, "Faith." (Buffy reveals no longer chained) Psyche."

Edited August 13, 2014 by VCRTracking

[Chaos Theory]

I liked Zeppo but then i always liked Xander as a character:

[Jazzy24]

I loved the Zeppo and I'm not even that big of a Xander fan but I liked how while the Scooby gang were all battling another apocalypse and saving the world Xander was saving his friends.

[La Tortuga]

I see pros and cons to the concept of a Watchers' Council and how it's handled by the writers. The Watchers aren't just keeping an eye on Buffy. They have centuries of writings from many countries to pour over, written in many languages and sometimes in code, in order to look for signs of varying apocalypses to prevent; that's the kind of thing that takes a team to get through. Ideally, I think the Council should be providing more support to the Slayer than they had been prior to "Helpless."

But when Kendra happened, I had questions that didn't get answered. The Council would have been aware that a second slayer had been called, but they should also have been aware that Buffy was still active. Why keep this information from Giles? Were Giles and the Council not talking to each other at all? Even if Kendra's watcher was unaware that Buffy was still alive and slaying, why wouldn't he have put in a call to Giles when he sent Kendra to Giles's turf, so that he'd be able to look after her as she stabbed her way around a Hellmouth? Kendra seems unaware that there IS a Watcher in Sunnydale until Buffy says she has one. This in particular bothers me, since Kendra makes it clear that procedure dictates she report back to a Watcher whenever she gathers new information; was Kendra assuming that she'd be able to make occasional phone calls to the Caribbean, or was she planning to ignore that procedure? You know, even back in the 90s, we had email. Way to go maintaining the lines of communication, Watchers' Council.

Lastly, I agree completely that it's weird for the Council to be killing off the majority of their slayers with this bizarre test. These girls aren't even eligible to be called until they turn 16 (if I remember the original mythology), and not every culture is going to support removing a girl from society prior to being called in order to give her combat training. So why would the council limit the period of effective slaying to approximately two years per girl, given how much training the girls require?

[KirkB]

Because the Watchers as a whole were willfully blind. Of course it's a bad idea to risk killing off the one person in the world with the strength and destiny to save it, but they were stuck in the past with their outdated methods. They did it because that was the way it was done. Giles probably wasn't the first one to question it, he was just the only one who got halfway listened to because his Slayer survived. And they ended up firing him anyway. It's no wonder things turned out the way they did for them.

[Dianthus]

The way the Watchers' Council treated Slayers always bugged me. I realize Joss & Co. were trying to make a point/beating the misogyny drum, but if you're relying on a tool/instrument, you get the best you can and take good care of it, right? Slayers aren't disposable.

[Dobian]

The Watchers having Giles sap her power without her knowledge was just plain idiotic.  Way to destroy trust, you know? 

[CletusMusashi]

 About communications: The Council was very slow to keep up with modern communications technology. We know that Giles himself was a bit of a Luddite, something I myself had in common with him at the time, and Quentin was older and more traditionalist than Giles. They probably considered email more of a security risk than anything. (Yes, insert comment about keeping demonology books on the school library shelves here.) We've heard Giles at least once say "They swear they sent a memo." Sometimes snail mail gets lost.

About the Cruciawhatchamacallit... yeah, that was just stupid.

Now, on to something more important. The coats. Here's my take on it. Yes, in Seasons 1-4, there were two people living in a three bedroom house. Maybe it was originally meant to be a guest room. Maybe Joyce meant to set up an office in there and write a novel or something. We'll never know, because Buffy filled it with coats.

Then, in Season 5, the molecules from about ninety  pounds of those coats became Dawn. And a bunch of other coats (however many it took to clear out the room,) ended up at Willow's house. In the post-Dawn-retcon seasons, Willow has a terrible history of borrowing Buffy's coats and not returning them, which is why they end up not as close as they used to be,

Edited August 15, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Fat Elvis 007]

Buffy: "She's more than my sister. They made her out of my coats. My coats are me. THEY MADE HER OUT OF ME!" 

Giles: "Quickly, Buffy! Throw your coat in the portal! It's the only way!"

Buffy: *shoves Dawn into portal*

[angelwoody]

Weren't slayers disposable to the council, though?  As soon as one dies another is called.  They would probably prefer to keep them young and easily influenced by their watchers.  If they are only slaying for a couple of years before the "unbeatable" test, they never have an opportunity to grow up, gain confidence, question and eventually throw off the yoke of the council.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 3:00 PM, PreviouslyTV said:

Wesley arrives, Faith goes off the rails, and the Buffy Rewatch continues.

Read the story

You have to remember, Buffy is equally cheeky with Merrick and early Giles, plus Buffy is probably still mad at the Council for putting her through the Cruciantenam and poor Wes symbolises them. I cheered in Dopplegangland when Wes saved CC and you realised he was actually useful, too easy just to make him the villainous punching bag who never does any good. 

Personally I find Faith's fall brilliantly done and acted, you feel for her, you ache with her but you still know it's wrong. 

My theory for the Cruciantenam is that it's to do with the Slayer deathwish, to see if the Slayers haven't been consumed by their powers and drifted towards the darkside. So deprive them of their demon essence and see if they can still cut the mustard. 

 Don't mind overalls, Buffy has a set too in the early seasons, just as long as we never see Willow's horrible yellow tights again.  

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 3:47 PM, JennB said:

Balthazar is a villain I usually forget about, and I feel bad about that when I do remember him. I wish he'd gotten more than one episode. "UNACCEPTABLE!"

Those overalls must have been passed around the WB's sets, because I remember one of the girls on 7th Heaven wearing them around the same time. And now that I've outed myself as a former 7th Heaven watcher, I'll go sit in the corner and think about what I've done.

There's a great blooper on one of the DVDs  where the door of the tub he's sitting in swings open and you see his little legs (bare because the poor actor must be suffering in that outfit). 

 I think Balthazar works better as a one trick pony, you couldn't get much mileage out of him in the tub and the SFX weren't good enough to get him out of it. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 4:28 PM, Lisin said:

 

Probably? I have to confess, I own a lot of coats. I mean a lot. I'm not allowed to buy any more. They fill an entire walk in closet and a bedroom closet plus at least two in the car at all times. Plus? I never ever wear coats. It's my worst vice. 

 

On topic? I really do like this set of episodes up until The Zeppo. That one bugged me back when it was new and hasn't stopped bugging me since. I'm also continually confused by Bangel, because before the whole learning about the curse thing I understood, but now? You know what can happen if he's happy... I just. I don't get it. 

Maybe that's what they use Dawn's room before she turns up? Makes sense actually, Buffy needed to walk around town carrying loads of weapons all the time so she can't really do that with just a mini-dress or jeans and t-shirt.

 You don't like The Zeppo? For SHAME! The Xan-man rules! Reputedly Nic was so happy when he read the script he actually cried. As for Bangel remember the curse doesn't change their feelings for one another, they still love one another but they just can't express that in a normal way.  

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 5:39 PM, Loandbehold said:

I like and still enjoy all these episodes. I think the reason Helpless may not stand up as well for some is because we've seen Buffy's reaction to Giles' betrayal. The first time, it was so heartbraking, but subsequent viewings just can't match that experience. Still, Buffy's inability to throw knives, getting thrown aside by the no-neck guy, and her "if I was at full Slayer strength, I'd be punning right now," are worth the price of admission. As is the final scene. I have also mentioned before how much I love Cordelia in the library agreeing to drive Buffy home. So understated, yet still so Queen C.

 

As for The Zeppo, I have to treat it as Xander's exaggerated view of how he sees the others treat him. When I do, the episode works. Otherwise, it doesn't make a lot of sense and I would find Cordelia over-the-top mean, which is a huge step back for her even if she is still taking out her anger on him for cheating on her.

 

Bad Girls and Consequences are great. I loved Balthazar for the reasons others have mentioned and I did buy Faith's turn. I'll miss Mr. Trick. I thought he made for a very good Moderate Bad. Between Slayerfest, laced candy, and coming thisclose to killing Buffy in Consequences, he gave her more problems than most other villains on the show.

If ever there was a time for Cuffy it was this ep, not just saving her from no -neck but driving her home, seeing her as vulnerable for once just as Buffy is. True on the Zeppo, we see things largely from Xander's point of view. I don't blame CC, not only is she mad at him but he keeps treating her like she's still his girlfriend when not only is she cut off from the Scoobs but from the Cordettes as well, burnt her bridges with Harmony and co. Then taking off with car-girl just to rub her nose in it. 

 Mr Trick was obviously supposed to stick around longer as they were supposed to kill off Faith but given the choice I think I speak for us all when I say 'Goodbye Mr Trick'. I think he would have been a great sidekick for Adam if he'd lasted. Nice to see K Todd doing so well with A Series of Unfortunate Events, he even pops up in Pirates of the Caribbean. 

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 6:34 PM, VCRTracking said:

I confess that the lesbian subtext in "Bad Girls" went completely over my head the first time I watched it!

 

Always loved "Consequences" and how dark Faith had gone "Safe words are for wusses." Whoa. Also loved the reveal when Angel said "Second best." Buffy going, "Faith." (Buffy reveals no longer chained) Psyche."

 

Is this the time to tell you about Xena and Gabrielle?

Edited August 4, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 11:12 PM, La Tortuga said:

I see pros and cons to the concept of a Watchers' Council and how it's handled by the writers. The Watchers aren't just keeping an eye on Buffy. They have centuries of writings from many countries to pour over, written in many languages and sometimes in code, in order to look for signs of varying apocalypses to prevent; that's the kind of thing that takes a team to get through. Ideally, I think the Council should be providing more support to the Slayer than they had been prior to "Helpless."

But when Kendra happened, I had questions that didn't get answered. The Council would have been aware that a second slayer had been called, but they should also have been aware that Buffy was still active. Why keep this information from Giles? Were Giles and the Council not talking to each other at all? Even if Kendra's watcher was unaware that Buffy was still alive and slaying, why wouldn't he have put in a call to Giles when he sent Kendra to Giles's turf, so that he'd be able to look after her as she stabbed her way around a Hellmouth? Kendra seems unaware that there IS a Watcher in Sunnydale until Buffy says she has one. This in particular bothers me, since Kendra makes it clear that procedure dictates she report back to a Watcher whenever she gathers new information; was Kendra assuming that she'd be able to make occasional phone calls to the Caribbean, or was she planning to ignore that procedure? You know, even back in the 90s, we had email. Way to go maintaining the lines of communication, Watchers' Council.

Lastly, I agree completely that it's weird for the Council to be killing off the majority of their slayers with this bizarre test. These girls aren't even eligible to be called until they turn 16 (if I remember the original mythology), and not every culture is going to support removing a girl from society prior to being called in order to give her combat training. So why would the council limit the period of effective slaying to approximately two years per girl, given how much training the girls require?

The Council was an analogy to big organisations like the Army (and studios/networks/police) who make decisions at the high level without regard to those on the front lines because they're cut off from reality. They also believe in compartmentalisation and need to know, possibly for the best, there was no real reason for Buffy/Giles to know and vice versa (Faith of course breaks the rules as ever). And I think you'll find the Watchers aren't so great at adapting to the new.

 Again I figure the Cruciantenam is to test the Slayers for their deathwish and make sure they haven't been consumed by their demon essence, take it away and see if they're still the up to the job.  

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 4:31 PM, KirkB said:

Because the Watchers as a whole were willfully blind. Of course it's a bad idea to risk killing off the one person in the world with the strength and destiny to save it, but they were stuck in the past with their outdated methods. They did it because that was the way it was done. Giles probably wasn't the first one to question it, he was just the only one who got halfway listened to because his Slayer survived. And they ended up firing him anyway. It's no wonder things turned out the way they did for them.

Absolutely, you think of Giles' talk with Quentin and the tests in Checkpoint, the Watcher's wanting to test Buffy's martial arts in traditional methods, Giles training her to WIN.  To draw an analogy I'm sure you'll appreciate, the Council are the Timelords, Buffy is The Doctor. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 10:18 PM, Dianthus said:

The way the Watchers' Council treated Slayers always bugged me. I realize Joss & Co. were trying to make a point/beating the misogyny drum, but if you're relying on a tool/instrument, you get the best you can and take good care of it, right? Slayers aren't disposable.

I don't think the Watcher's were actively misogynist but very patriarchal. In defence they were sending out these poor girls knowing in their heart of hearts no matter how brilliant they were they would eventually die in combat, like a general sending his men into battle knowing he would lose a percentage of them every time. Slayer's ARE disposable, that's the grim reality. You could also argue that they keep their distance from the Slayers because it IS heartbreaking for them (Giles observes in Fool for Love that the Watcher's diaries tail off after the death of their Slayers as they're too cut up to continue), if they got too close they couldn't order them to do the things they do.   

On ‎15‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 6:25 PM, Dobian said:

The Watchers having Giles sap her power without her knowledge was just plain idiotic.  Way to destroy trust, you know? 

Only because Giles admits it to her due to his "father's love", I'm sure if he hadn't it would have been one more secret they kept, "Oh it was a demon's curse" etc. 

On ‎15‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 6:39 PM, CletusMusashi said:

 About communications: The Council was very slow to keep up with modern communications technology. We know that Giles himself was a bit of a Luddite, something I myself had in common with him at the time, and Quentin was older and more traditionalist than Giles. They probably considered email more of a security risk than anything. (Yes, insert comment about keeping demonology books on the school library shelves here.) We've heard Giles at least once say "They swear they sent a memo." Sometimes snail mail gets lost.

About the Cruciawhatchamacallit... yeah, that was just stupid.

Now, on to something more important. The coats. Here's my take on it. Yes, in Seasons 1-4, there were two people living in a three bedroom house. Maybe it was originally meant to be a guest room. Maybe Joyce meant to set up an office in there and write a novel or something. We'll never know, because Buffy filled it with coats.

Then, in Season 5, the molecules from about ninety  pounds of those coats became Dawn. And a bunch of other coats (however many it took to clear out the room,) ended up at Willow's house. In the post-Dawn-retcon seasons, Willow has a terrible history of borrowing Buffy's coats and not returning them, which is why they end up not as close as they used to be,

Not to mention spilling stuff on them? Remember post s3 Buffy is at UCSD leaving much more storage space. 

On ‎16‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 3:21 AM, Fat Elvis 007 said:

Buffy: "She's more than my sister. They made her out of my coats. My coats are me. THEY MADE HER OUT OF ME!" 

Giles: "Quickly, Buffy! Throw your coat in the portal! It's the only way!"

Buffy: *shoves Dawn into portal*

Actually Dawn complains Buffy steals her clothes although that's baffling as she's so tall nothing would fit Buffy. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 4:38 PM, angelwoody said:

Weren't slayers disposable to the council, though?  As soon as one dies another is called.  They would probably prefer to keep them young and easily influenced by their watchers.  If they are only slaying for a couple of years before the "unbeatable" test, they never have an opportunity to grow up, gain confidence, question and eventually throw off the yoke of the council.

I never got the impression it was unbeatable, it's an interesting theory but then why would they leave Buffy alone afterwards if they were that ruthless? Or slip something into Faith's IV?

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Is this the time to tell you about Xena and Gabrielle?

Oh I was aware of it with Xena and Gabrielle! It would be hard to miss it there! There were already jokes about them on Saturday Night Live!

[Halting Hex]

Here, have a Waybacked link to Sarah's essay.  (No pictures available.)

Quote

the plot [of Helpless] means, functionally, that the Watcher's Council is killing off the majority of its Slayers at age 18, presumably to make room for more pliable candidates. This, and Giles's membership in this organization, is problematic enough, 

I've actually always thought the Cruciamentum made sense, since if most Slayers are called around age 14/15 (as Buffy was), by the time they get to be 18, they should be able to handle the test (remember, the Council completely flubs things; normally the vampire is tranq'd out of its skull.  Joyce could probably do the job) and it's a good way to remind them that they are more than just their muscles…while at the same time giving those who have grown tired of The Burden of Slayerhood an excuse to lay down and "retire" without getting any innocent bystanders hurt.  I would think that failures are relatively rare, honestly.

That said, a certain amount of girls do die, which should probably call Giles's ethics into question.  In the aired episode, he ends up sabotaging the test to save Buffy, but you might think he would be a bit more prepared, if he had been waiting nearly two years (Buffy arrives March, 1997, and this is January of 1999) for this moment.

(Of course, this was only a David Fury spec script [Go Fish hadn't led to a full-time gig, as yet] and so it would be tougher to cue the upcoming Test in previous episodes…but not impossible.  A nervous and confusing call from Giles to an unknown "visitor" in Miracle Snow, WtF??? might have provided some justification for G-Man "getting the cHannukah Spirit", instead of (say) putting a crossbow bolt through Angel's chest straight off.  But Joss didn't do that.)

And of course, that runs into Cruciamentum's second purpose: shedding Watchers who would be likely to get so freaked about a prophecy of their Slayer's impending death that they would, say, try to attack The Master with only a machete, and thus possibly allow an Apocalypse that Buffy was supposed to sacrifice herself to stop.  The Mission, not the Maiden, Travers would claim. 

But again, Giles being fanatically devoted to Buffy hasn't been much seen of late, other than his allowing Fang to stay intact.  Needs a bit more set-up, perhaps.

Quote

And then there's Angel revealing that he loved her from afar when she was in, what, ninth grade? The writing usually stays on the right side of "...ew" with that, barely. Not this time. 

True, I tend to give Broody grief about "falling in love" with a 14/15 year old at first sight, but I don't think of it in academic terms so much.  Possibly because we do see Buffy being a capable 10th grader in S1, but Freshman is different.

Spoiler

As we shall see next season, at the University.

It's true that Buffy turned out to have Grade 9 nailed, to the point where the Hemery High yearbook was "pretty much the story of me", but still.

I can only imagine what would have happened if Buffy had been called 8 or 9 months sooner…would Angel have been lurking in the local middle school, waiting to meet her during 8th grade lunch?

Quote

ONE PAIR OF OVERALLS WILL PROBABLY DO IT, WARDROBE And yet Willow has, like, eight.

Yeah, point taken.  I noted in the When She Was Bad thread that Cynthia Bergstrom (who took over as Costume Designer with that episode) was scrupulous about differentiating between our Slay Gal and her BFF, visually, but this might be overkill.

Note that these Consequences overalls might be a similar shade of blue to the ones Willow wears in The Harvest  (upper right in the collage), but these have a brand patch and contrasting white straps, rather than a uniform blue.  So that's at least seven sets, one for each day of the week.  (Good guessing, Sarah.)

I mean, Buffy wears overalls, too.

She just knows how to do it.  One consistent set, whenever Buffy feels like a soft butch sad, and that's enough.

Edited March 2, 2024 by Halting Hex

[JustHereForFood]

The Cruciamentum is basically a symbol for patriarchy and how a men-dominated group of people on a power trip treats girls and women who they have reasons to be afraid of because they are (potentially) more powerful than them. The symbolism of taking away the girls bodily autonomy is a part of that. So is the fact that many people who benefit or at least don't suffer from the system (like Giles here) only become aware of how unfair it all is once someone close to them gets to be directly affected (kind of like many parents only become aware of how homophobic and transphobic society is after one of their kids comes out and they experience it first-hand). If Giles took time to think about it before (after all, he was aware of the system his whole life), he could have thought about a way to avoid it - he could tell Buffy and they could devise a plan together without him risking losing her trust. As she points out, it's not just about the test but also about him lying to her and brushing away her concerns about losing her powers. (People brushing away girls' and women's concerns about their medical issues are still a huge problem.)

And just so it's absolutely clear, we get several mentions about "tradition". It's still very often that some people try to justify or diminish violence against women and children by calling it "tradition" or "cultural".

There are some great points made about it in this guide (I recommend the whole channel):