S04.E07: Ethan…Esther…Chaim

[Nicola]

Quote

Jackie Kennedy wouldn’t have lost it like that in a room full of donors/strangers.  She had poise and was raised with the old fashioned notion that one’s personal emotions are not for public consumption.  If JFK’s very real philandering had been brought up in a public forum, Jackie would have smiled demurely, then firmly, but politely shut that shit down, and changed the subject.  

Absolutely, and she had the social power to have ENDED Midge, not just forfeit pay for the day. And the pink outfit was in horrifically bad taste. How many levels of wardrobe approval did that go through?!

In the real world, Midge has risen just as far as she can possibly go. Not only is she merely "friend funny," she doesn't know when to hit the brakes and leave, George Costanza-style. Putting Lenny Bruce in this ep was a stark contrast to what separates the Lenny Bruces from the Midges.

Quote

Abe taking communion was very bad; not eating the wafer was worse. Catholics believe that is the literal body of Christ. it does not get thrown in the trash or just left somewhere. I've been married to a Catholic family for 23 years. I've been to several hundred Masses. And I don't even think of taking communion. And on more than one occasion I've seen priests chase down a parishioner who didn't chew and swallow the wafer right there. This is a sacred thing to them. But, having mocked a Bar Mitzvah earlier, maybe ASP is just working her way through the religions. 

Thank you from your friendly neighborhood Catholic for explaining this and for your much-appreciated respect. I also don't take communion at my in-law's Protestant church when it's offered for the same reason. And COVID has been an especially big challenge for priests because people walk away fiddling with masks, and they can't tell if the Host has actually been consumed.

Someone pointed out upthread that in 1960 the Mass was still in Latin. Right you are, and there's even more to it than that: Until Vatican II (late 60s), Communion was taken kneeling at the rail, as you saw in the episode, BUT it wasn't given in the hands. It was placed directly on the tongue for EXACTLY the reason you saw in the show--so that it wasn't desecrated either accidentally or on purpose. Today on eBay you will see the occasional stolen Host for sale for... Very Not Good purposes.

Today most churches built after Vatican II don't even have Communion rails. But there has been a great resurgence of the Latin Mass, and at traditional parishes you can see this done; there's also a movement on to return to receiving Communion kneeling and on the tongue. Even if you're not Catholic, I really recommend checking out a Latin Mass. It is fascinating and otherworldly and helps you understand the architecture and art of older churches. The show was so close with the correctly dressed priest and the altar boy with the paten, but the screw-ups were big ones.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Nicola

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, Nicola said:

Absolutely, and she had the social power to have ENDED Midge, not just forfeit pay for the day. And the pink outfit was in horrifically bad taste. How many levels of wardrobe approval did that go through?!

I thought the same about the suit - it is iconic, of course, but in a terrible way. I figured someone just thought "how can we make sure people know it's Jackie" and that came to their mind - without a thought about when, where, and under what circumstances that suit became iconic.

[GrannySmith]

What time of year was that luncheon?  Jackie was pregnant and gave birth in November. Maternity clothes might have been more appropriate than the pink suit. 

[kwnyc]

6 hours ago, GrannySmith said:

Jackie was pregnant and gave birth in November.

Wikipedia has told me that it was John, Jr. who was born in 1960!

Edited March 17, 2022 by kwnyc

[Pallas]

 

10 hours ago, GrannySmith said:

What time of year was that luncheon?  Jackie was pregnant and gave birth in November. Maternity clothes might have been more appropriate than the pink suit. 

The luncheon was in the summer; Jackie's pink dress was sleeveless. The Dallas outfit was a pink Chanel suit. 

[shapeshifter]

While the crying was atypical of Jackie, maybe we could blame it on pregnancy hormones. I know that's an unpopular, un-feminist, and likely biologically unsubstantiated suggestion, but I've had 3 kids, and my daughter just had one, so I get to suggest this fictional excuse, even though I don't recall any extra crying during any of our pregnancies.

[janie jones]

I also didn't realize that person was Jackie Kennedy at the luncheon, until toward the end of the scene. When everyone grew quiet and lowered their heads, I thought all their husbands were supposed to be cheaters, and was like, dang! Why would all these women who are strangers and acquaintances to the Kennedys have known about his cheating?

On 3/12/2022 at 8:46 AM, reallyjustjen said:

Abe’s horror at having “eaten Jesus” with the communion wafer was funny, but it seems strange that Abe, being a non-Catholic (and being, well, Abe), would believe in transubstantiation enough to be bothered by it. 

I took it more as him not knowing anything about the protocol and trying to be respectful of another religion. Like, what's he supposed to do with it that won't be offensive? Someone also mentioned him calling it "the body of Christ" when Catholics don't really do that, and while it's probably just because that's how people talk on this show, it also could be because he has no reason to know that Catholics just call them communion wafers. Like, Mei was trying to wear a yarmulke a few episodes ago.

On 3/13/2022 at 2:01 PM, Suzn said:

I don't think she would want to repeat what Midge said in her act.  So much TMI.

I don't know that Rose would want her dirty laundry aired, but I also wonder if she wishes she were freer like Midge. Smoking-cigarettes-and-walking-her-wiener-dog-by-the-Seine Rose probably wouldn't be as bothered by her act as Upper West Side Rose.

I know they can't insert an entire hour-long magic show in the middle of an episode, but from what we saw, 3/4 of the magician's performance was Rose doing standup. I hate when shows do that. They could have at least inserted a "and now for my final trick" or something to indicate we weren't watching the performance in real time.

[Nicola]

On 3/18/2022 at 12:09 PM, janie jones said:

Someone also mentioned him calling it "the body of Christ" when Catholics don't really do that

We do say that-- now. But this episode took place before Vatican II, when the Mass was said mostly in Latin.  Abe would have heard "Corpus Christi." Maybe he took a World Religions class at some point? This ep did get some major stuff wrong about Catholicism, but I was impressed with what they did get right. Usually Hollywood's batting average is much lower :)

Edited March 20, 2022 by Nicola

[janie jones]

I'm from a Catholic family and I've never heard anyone refer to a communion wafer as "the body of Christ" in a conversation.

[whiporee]

1 hour ago, janie jones said:

I'm from a Catholic family and I've never heard anyone refer to a communion wafer as "the body of Christ" in a conversation.

Not even after it’s sanctified? That’s the point — it’s what the priest says when he gives it to you. Before, just a wafer. After, the body of Christ. But, like I said before, Abe may have meant no harm, but a priest would not have allowed it had they seen him not chew and swallow. 

[kathe5133]

3 hours ago, whiporee said:

Not even after it’s sanctified? That’s the point — it’s what the priest says when he gives it to you. Before, just a wafer. After, the body of Christ. But, like I said before, Abe may have meant no harm, but a priest would not have allowed it had they seen him not chew and swallow. 

Back then, there was no chewing.  You swallowed it whole!  As a seven year old contemplating her first communion in 1962, I was terrified that I would gag and throw up on the altar.  Thankfully didn't, got it down without biting (we were told "biting" the body of Christ was a mortal sin.)  At some point that all went the way of "it's a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday" and now you see them all coming back from communion chomping away.  Wonder if they let all of those poor souls that were wallowing in purgatory for chewing and eating meat out when they changed the rules?  

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by kathe5133

[Nicola]

The two previous posts are every problem with pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II ever 😆 Will we ever find the middle of the pendulum swing, ffs?!! But anyway I do appreciate that this show at least acknowledges that religion exists, and for reasons other than to mock it. I like seeing Jewish families depicted as actually going to a synagogue and observing the holy days, for example, rather than only being "culturally Jewish." Moishe and Abe's conversation about God existing was also gold.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Nicola

[FaginZorro]

Having made my "first holy communion" in 1962 also I can relate to what kathe5133 was saying. I too, as a seven year old was terrified of chewing the host/wafer.  

Regarding Nicola's post I found the argument on the synagogue floor during the bar mitzvah to be offensive and unrealistic. This is a place of worship and the people who were offended by Abe's theatre review would have taken it up with him elsewhere.  

[janie jones]

On 3/21/2022 at 12:51 PM, whiporee said:

Not even after it’s sanctified? That’s the point — it’s what the priest says when he gives it to you. Before, just a wafer. After, the body of Christ. But, like I said before, Abe may have meant no harm, but a priest would not have allowed it had they seen him not chew and swallow. 

Clearly we are acquainted with different brands of Catholics. I don't think any of the Catholics I know believe in transubstantiation. I literally just asked my mom if she thought anyone did, and she said "It's just pretending" and that it's symbolic. Maybe that's why no one I know calls it the "body of Christ," because they're not even trying to pretend that's what they think it is. My nieces go to Catholic school, though, so I'm curious and might ask them how they get talked about in their lessons.

[shapeshifter]

On 3/23/2022 at 1:36 PM, janie jones said:

Clearly we are acquainted with different brands of Catholics. I don't think any of the Catholics I know believe in transubstantiation. I literally just asked my mom if she thought anyone did, and she said "It's just pretending" and that it's symbolic. Maybe that's why no one I know calls it the "body of Christ," because they're not even trying to pretend that's what they think it is. My nieces go to Catholic school, though, so I'm curious and might ask them how they get talked about in their lessons.

Isn't "Body of Christ" what the wafers are called in some Protestant churches?
Or is it just the term for the congregation?

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by shapeshifter

[smartymarty]

On 3/23/2022 at 2:07 PM, shapeshifter said:

Isn't "Body of Christ" what the wafers are called in some Protestant churches?
Or is it just the term for the congregation?

 

Ha! First, we in Protestant churches don't use wafers, we use bread. You know, the way Jesus did? And yes, the ministers quote, from the Bible, Christ presenting the bread as his body. Protestants do not believe in transubstantiation though; it's symbolic. Since official Methodism is against drinking (everyone should abstain to prevent someone who would be likely to become addicted from doing so), those churches use grape juice, not wine.

Yet again annoyed at an episode of MMM with the ridiculousness of Rose doing Midge's routine. No way would the illusionist suggest she act like one of her family members at work. What was she going to do if she had to imitate an accountant? And I echo whoever commented that it seemed like 3/4 of the illusionist's act was taken up by this.

I understand that many are yet entertained by this show. It just takes me out of it when something doesn't make sense. That matchmaker guild is over the top too. And Midge should have known not to tell her "slept with a married man" story at a high society luncheon.

Will be curious to see whether we needed to see Lenny Bruce begging people to come to his Carnegie Hall show.

[t7686]

On 4/4/2022 at 1:11 PM, smartymarty said:

Ha! First, we in Protestant churches don't use wafers, we use bread. You know, the way Jesus did? And yes, the ministers quote, from the Bible, Christ presenting the bread as his body. Protestants do not believe in transubstantiation though; it's symbolic. Since official Methodism is against drinking (everyone should abstain to prevent someone who would be likely to become addicted from doing so), those churches use grape juice, not wine.

Yet again annoyed at an episode of MMM with the ridiculousness of Rose doing Midge's routine. No way would the illusionist suggest she act like one of her family members at work. What was she going to do if she had to imitate an accountant? And I echo whoever commented that it seemed like 3/4 of the illusionist's act was taken up by this.

I understand that many are yet entertained by this show. It just takes me out of it when something doesn't make sense. That matchmaker guild is over the top too. And Midge should have known not to tell her "slept with a married man" story at a high society luncheon.

Will be curious to see whether we needed to see Lenny Bruce begging people to come to his Carnegie Hall show.

Episcopalian here, we use wafers and wine. 
 

the whole Jackie routine was uncomfortable to watch. Is Midge suited for this if she can’t know when to stop? Or is she just like Lillian and sabotaging  herself because she’s afraid to be really good? Either way, it’s annoying. 
 

the matchmaker ladies thing was over the top and also annoying. No way something like that would happen in real life, right?

[DrSpaceman73]

Well as a prior catholic growing up in the 80s :

Those communion wafers are nasty, like eating cardboard. 

The priest would say 'the body of christ' before either handing you the wafer in your left hand for you to them eat or would place it on your tongue.  Whether they believed it was the actual body or not I have no idea. I never believed it.  It's a symbol

If he handed it to you, you could eat it while going back to your seat. No one checked for sure.  They just assumed. 

Wine/ grape juice was optional and all from the same glass.  Nasty. A member would hold it and let your drink from it up front. I never did. 

You used to have to swallow those whole no chewing!  I couldn't I'd gag.  Just eating it was bad enough. 

Our non denominational church just went back to wafers instead of bread. I assume for sanitary reasons.  They're still awful. 

[bybrandy]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:07 AM, jrzy said:

I was yelling at the screen that it was Yugoslavia!  No one had heard of Croatia yet! 

 

In fairness during the 2nd world war there was an Independent State of Croatia but it was a Nazi Puppet state so... yeah.   

Lots of people identified as Croats/Croatians at the time.  My mm grew up adjacent to a large Croatian community and when the war for independence and eventual independence happened in 1991 my uncle and mom were discussing something about the area and she kept talking about Croatian people and he kept correcting her that they were Croats and my uncle is technically correct but my poor mom literally grew up with tons of people who self identified as "Croatian".  

[Pallas]

Croatia has a long history as both an independent and subject or incorporated state; in the early 1960's it had been part of Yugoslavia for nearly 50 years and the error is inane. Until recently, "Croat" was the noun and "Croatian" was the adjective, akin to "Serb" and "Serbian;" now usage in the US, anyway, leans toward "Croatian" as the noun, as well.