Season 1 General Discussion

[Brn2bwild]

I didn't see a thread that was for discussing Season 1/the show in general, so I created one.

This show really impressed me with its portrayal of young women and teenage dynamics.  The characters were all complex - for instance, I thought initially that Laura Lee was going to be a generic religious redshirt, but she turned out to be a really thoughtful, brave character.  I hope that she and Jackie appear in later seasons.  As for Jackie, I like that she was written as a mixture of kind/thoughtful and shallow/petty.  You can see what initially drew people to her and what causes them to distance themselves later.  I actually think she was the most clear-headed of all the characters, save Nat.  She understood what situation they were in, questioned the other characters as they descended into madness.  Also, apart from Natalie, she seemed to hold no ill will toward any of the other characters, even "unpopular" characters like Misty.  

The character dynamics were painfully realistic.  I'd like to say they were teenaged dynamics, but I've seen those dynamics between adults, too.   

 

[Chaos Theory]

Rewatching on demand mostly for Jackie’s storyline.    I am half way through episode 5 right now and the balance of power between Jackie and Shauna is already shifting.   The pilot episode has Jackie as team captain.  We are expressly told that it is not because she is the best player.  Because she is not.  She is team captain because she “has influence”.  Which is shown during the party scene when the team fights among itself after Tai accidentally on purpose breaks the freshman girls leg. (Which fyi during the meeting on what to do about the freshman Jackie is not included and one of the girls says Jackie won’t be happy about freezing her out)    Jackie manages to get the team back on the same page by “saying nice things about each other” but when Shauna asks her to say something nice about her it is all backhanded compliments.  

When the crash happens Jackie wants to stay with the plane but is overruled.  Mostly because of Shauna.  Jackie fails to help Shauna save the life of Van who survives anyway and blames Jackie,    And through the five episodes Jackie does little to help the group.   It is in episode 5 where she questions why she is the only one “not getting off on this boring back to nature crap”. When Shauna tells her people are beginning  to notice she isn’t helping,    

Again this is where the balance of power begins to shift between the two signified by Shauna giving Jackie back her necklace which Jackie gave her to protect her on the airplane.   

Edited February 6, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

19 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

  As for Jackie, I like that she was written as a mixture of kind/thoughtful and shallow/petty.  You can see what initially drew people to her and what causes them to distance themselves later.  I actually think she was the most clear-headed of all the characters, save Nat.  She understood what situation they were in, questioned the other characters as they descended into madness.  Also, apart from Natalie, she seemed to hold no ill will toward any of the other characters, even "unpopular" characters like Misty.  

Agree about Jackie in general, but I don't think we can say she was the one seeing their situation clearly at all, since not seeing the situation was the main thing that set her apart from other characters. In her own words, she refused to "get off" on the "boring back to nature crap." As if the other girls were just following a trend she couldn't get into instead of adapting to their actual situation of living in the woods. 

Her staying in the exact same headspace/world she'd always lived in did allow her to react to the other girls' drugged craziness as actual craziness, yes. But it also led to her focusing on herself rather than the group, not helping with chores and not being able to start a fire. It also, I think, kept her from having an ill-will toward Misty not because she was clear-headed but because she still saw Misty as she always had been: a girl too unpopular for her to have strong feelings about. Where as other people had damn good reasons for being war of Misty, who had drugged them all, and was dangerous eager to play savior with anything medical. Nobody knew she'd destroyed the black box, but it was pretty in line with the rest of her behavior. Since Jackie hadn't eaten or drunk anything at the ball, she not only didn't much know what Misty did, but didn't really care. And if she didn't have any ill-will towards Natalie she still seemed to go after her more than once for being with Travis as if she was jealous. (She also does seem to have a problem with Tai)

ETA: Also, Jackie's clear-headedness was also the thing that led her to unwittingly suggest and support the two set pieces that drove the girls further down the road to whatever spiritualism they're getting into, the seance and the ball. 

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

She is team captain because she “has influence”.  Which is shown during the party scene when the team fights among itself after Tai accidentally on purpose breaks the freshman girls leg. (

Yeah, I feel like this was a great foreshadowing. When dealing with the girls fighting at the party Jackie does seem to act like the natural leader the coach saw her as. But earlier, when Ali's leg is broken, she's the person who does nothing. She keeps her distance while the others run over and help. Then in the locker room her attempts to be positive about it get laughed at b/c she seems to be downplaying the accident to the point of denial. The plane crash was the kind of situation Jackie wasn't a good leader in since her solution to things was mostly to just wait for someone to come and get them.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Chaos Theory]

Jackie pretty quickly goes from just being passively unhelpful to being actively threatening when she finds out that Shauna is/was pregnant  with Jeff baby.   After  Jackie steals Shauna’s diary she doesn’t confront Shauna directly but instead tells Travis that Nat is a slut.   Jackie has already alienated Van and now she alienated Nat as well.   And then she does out Shauna’s pregnancy.   And begins to be be outright hostile to Shauna.    But of course the plane explodes so that plan doesn’t work.  

[Brn2bwild]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Agree about Jackie in general, but I don't think we can say she was the one seeing their situation clearly at all, since not seeing the situation was the main thing that set her apart from other characters. In her own words, she refused to "get off" on the "boring back to nature crap." As if the other girls were just following a trend she couldn't get into instead of adapting to their actual situation of living in the woods. 

Her staying in the exact same headspace/world she'd always lived in did allow her to react to the other girls' drugged craziness as actual craziness, yes. But it also led to her focusing on herself rather than the group, not helping with chores and not being able to start a fire. It also, I think, kept her from having an ill-will toward Misty not because she was clear-headed but because she still saw Misty as she always had been: a girl too unpopular for her to have strong feelings about. Where as other people had damn good reasons for being war of Misty, who had drugged them all, and was dangerous eager to play savior with anything medical. Nobody knew she'd destroyed the black box, but it was pretty in line with the rest of her behavior. Since Jackie hadn't eaten or drunk anything at the ball, she not only didn't much know what Misty did, but didn't really care. And if she didn't have any ill-will towards Natalie she still seemed to go after her more than once for being with Travis as if she was jealous. (She also does seem to have a problem with Tai)

ETA: Also, Jackie's clear-headedness was also the thing that led her to unwittingly suggest and support the two set pieces that drove the girls further down the road to whatever spiritualism they're getting into, the seance and the ball. 

 

Agree that Jackie's conduct was frequently not wise... she should have pitched in and found some way to be useful at the cabin.  What about making clothes out of the skins of the animals they killed?  What about fishing?  They had some traps close to the shore, but who knows how often they put them out, and fish are generally found in deeper water.  That cabin had a plane but no boat?

I also find it hard to believe she would be so weak with carrying the bucket of water.  Soccer may be a lower body sport, but I'd think that champion soccer players would be pretty strong in general.  

That said, she wasn't the one who ran in a dangerous, drunken pack hunting down Travis.  She was the only one willing to call the others out and make them face their behavior.  Shauna and Lottie were like, "Um, yeah, whatever," trying to pretend it did not happen.  

I had forgotten her animosity toward Tai, and find her reaction to Tai's efforts to relieve the tension puzzling.  Tai wasn't part of the near murder-orgy, and generally seemed less affected by the berries/shrooms.  Jackie also approved of Tai's plan to go and get help.  It may be because she viewed Tai as a rival leader, maybe even before they left for nationals.  The break (pun sort of intended) really seemed to have come when the team voted on Tai's plan to hike to the lake.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Brn2bwild

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Jackie pretty quickly goes from just being passively unhelpful to being actively threatening when she finds out that Shauna is/was pregnant  with Jeff baby.   After  Jackie steals Shauna’s diary she doesn’t confront Shauna directly but instead tells Travis that Nat is a slut.   Jackie has already alienated Van and now she alienated Nat as well.   And then she does out Shauna’s pregnancy.   And begins to be be outright hostile to Shauna.    But of course the plane explodes so that plan doesn’t work.  

Yes, most of the stuff Jackie isn't so bad in itself. It's normal high school fighting--it's really only bad because of the situation they're in. Like starting right away when Shauna doesn't support her in staying with the plane there's that moment where she's obviously acting friendly with Mari as if to replace Shauna. It's only a bad sign because this is a point where they shouldn't be basing decisions on that. (Tai almost does it too when she thanks Shauna for "backing her up" and Shauna makes clear this wasn't a switch of allegience, she just thought they should go to the lake.)

25 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

That said, she wasn't the one who ran in a dangerous, drunken pack hunting down Travis.  She was the only one willing to call the others out and make them face their behavior.  Shauna and Lottie were like, "Um, yeah, whatever," trying to pretend it did not happen. 

Definitely. The coach couldn't do it because he wasn't there--he was totally shocked when he heard her refer to an orgy! It really wasn't something they could just pretend didn't happen, even if they were drugged or whatever. I get the other girls not wanting to broach the subject because they were still puzzled but Jackie wasn't wrong to bring it up--unfortunately she was ultimately more interested in Jackie's betrayal with Jeff. It's funny I just realized that Nat got similar treatment from Travis when she tried to talk about it, asking if he was okay after almost BEING MURDERED! But she wasn't being hostile either.

25 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

I had forgotten her animosity toward Tai, and find her reaction to Tai's efforts to relieve the tension puzzling.  Tai wasn't part of the near murder-orgy, and generally seemed less affected by the berries/shrooms.  Jackie also approved of Tai's plan to go and get help.  It may be because she viewed Tai as a rival leader, maybe even before they left for nationals.  The break (pun sort of intended) really seemed to have come when the team voted on Tai's plan to hike to the lake.

Yes, that's ultimately what I came down on as an explanation. That while Jackie was most hurt by what Shauna did, she maybe had decided to focus on Tai as personally enjoying watching Jackie's social credit go down. In the fight scene she first tells Tai to shut up when she says Jackie doesn't have to thank the Bear. That probably annoyed her because she saw Tai as taking a leadership role, telling the others what the rules are, and also speaking as if she was outside of the craziness. (Which she somewhat was, since she didn't try to attack Travis either sexually or violently, but she was part of the mob that stumbled into the cabin.) 

Because that seems to be what she meant when she said Tai had "wanted this all along" when Tai told Jackie not to go outside. It seemed like just another sign that while Jackie was seeing some things more clearly because she wasn't caught up in whatever mystical things the others were feeling, in other ways she was still too stuck in her previous pov to see the real situation. So she assumed everyone else was prioritizing social status in the same way she was, rather than useful work.

Actually, it just occurs to me that Jackie and Misty are the two that still seemed to be playing out their high school roles the most--the most popular and the outcast.

[Cinnabon]

I find it truly laughable and telling that even after 6 months there, Jackie had never bothered to learn how to make a simple fire . She let others do it for her every single day for 6 months. Ditto for letting others find and prepare and cook whatever food they had. I would have resented the hell out of her for making me and the others her servants, letting us wait on her day after day .

Edited February 7, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Brn2bwild]

That episode where Natalie and Travis brought back the diseased deer, I was never clear whether the group actually ate it.  In a follow-up episode, Lottie got the bone from a burnt out animal corpse - was that the same deer?  If they ate the deer, could that have contributed to any of the crazy they experienced in the later episodes (and in the coming seasons)?

[Tatum]

19 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Jackie fails to help Shauna save the life of Van who survives anyway and blames Jackie,  

I thought this was the beginning of the end for Jackie/Shauna. Jackie is explaining that she wasn't trying to abandon Van, she just wanted to get Shauna away from the potentially exploding airplane (generally not a bad idea, it wouldn't help Van if all three of them burned up, and it didn't seem like Shauna was making any headway getting her loose) and Shauna didn't exactly tell Jackie to stuff it but she didn't seem too impressed or interested in reassuring Jackie, which Jackie clearly wanted her to do.

 

I can't tell how realistic Jackie's character was after the 9th or 10th episode. I understand in the beginning, Jackie was not willing to learn any survival skills because she didn't want to concede, even to herself, that they were going to be there indefinitely, but you'd think after many months of not being found, of clearly noticing she was regularly overruled and ignored, she'd start to adjust her attitude. No one is saying she has to say prayers to the dirt gods, but maybe don't openly mock the two people who have a lot more influence than she does? Don't shout at the group over how fucked up they were? (I mean, fair point, but you're outnumbered here, Jackie, and there is no authority you can run and complain to anymore. Even in high school in the 90s, there was discussions of mob mentality and how quickly things could get scary).

 

On the other hand, I find it kind of unrealistic how in other survival/apocalypse shows, the characters always become excellent sharp shooters and hunters, and develop all kinds of skills with ease, as if they had been Navy SEALs their whole lives. So maybe a teenage prom queen stranded in the woods for months and not noticing the changing social hierarchy around here (or not caring), and not deciding to develop any skills of her own is somewhat realistic.

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, Tatum said:

I

 

On the other hand, I find it kind of unrealistic how in othersurvival/apocalypse shows, the characters always become excellent sharp shooters and hunters, and develop all kinds of skills with ease, as if they had been Navy SEALs their whole lives. So maybe a teenage prom queen stranded in the woods for months and not noticing the changing social hierarchy around here (or not caring), and not deciding to develop any skills of her own is somewhat realistic.

I like the way the show shows why and how each of the girls knows a certain skill.    Nat knows how to shoot because her father had an old gun in their dirty old trailer and she had once tried to shoot him with it which lead to him accidentally shooting himself.    Misty in her eternal need to be wanted and helpful took first aid classes.   Shauna partly out of spite volunteers to cut open a deer so becomes the one who does that.    One of the other girls(whose name I forget) knows about poisonous plants. 

As for Tai vs Jackie I can see it as how they both view being a leader. Both on the team and in the woods.   Tai is quick to come up with plans and is quick to volunteer to lead them while Jackie resists the idea that they will be in the woods for more then a couple days even as it approaches months and can’t understand why everyone else is having an easier time then she is with the transition.  (And this is even before the drugged out fiasco).  But then again the only reason Jackie isn’t drugged is that she has been refusing to eat because she finds the food unappetizing and has decided that instead of hanging with the group to go and seduce Travis.    Which she does partly out of spite against both Nat and Shauna.  

So after all the well…..ok let’s call it what it is….sexual assault happens Jackie tries to take back control by calling everyone out but by this point no one cares about what happened months ago between Shauna and Jeff.   Jeff is not part of their group anymore and Jackie has failed to see how acclimated they have become to their surrounding,    Seducing Travis was out of line because Nat put a claim on him and she has higher status then Jackie does.   Even Misty at this point (who no one trusts) is useful to the group.  So when Jackie draws a line in the sand…..no one comes over to her side.   

 

I do think Jackie’s death symbolizes the death of the old world and the beginning of the new one for the group.   The balance has completely shifted now.  I can see the groups continued  decent into madness up until they are suddenly rescued.

I only hope Van is still alive.   She is my favorite character we don’t know if they survived yet.  I don’t care if she turns out to be the big bad.  I want to see adult Van. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[izabella]

14 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Agree that Jackie's conduct was frequently not wise... she should have pitched in and found some way to be useful at the cabin.  What about making clothes out of the skins of the animals they killed?  What about fishing?  They had some traps close to the shore, but who knows how often they put them out, and fish are generally found in deeper water.  That cabin had a plane but no boat?

I recall Jackie washing the period cloths they were using during the menstruation episode.  It was when Shauna was trying to hide from everyone that she was pregnant and used animal blood to make fake pads.  So she was doing something.

[Brn2bwild]

16 minutes ago, izabella said:

I recall Jackie washing the period cloths they were using during the menstruation episode.  It was when Shauna was trying to hide from everyone that she was pregnant and used animal blood to make fake pads.  So she was doing something.

And she helped clean the plane off.

[Cinnabon]

I understand not wanting to accept that they weren’t going to be rescued anytime soon, but after 6 months her views should have adjusted. Not everyone is going to be good at hunting, but anyone can assist in preparing food, etc. And I can’t see ANY reason why, after 6 months (180 long days!), she hadn’t ever even attempted to learn how to start a simple small fire. I can be lazy, too, but I can’t imagine expecting everyone else to do the work for me and serve me every day for 6 months. 

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

That episode where Natalie and Travis brought back the diseased deer, I was never clear whether the group actually ate it.  In a follow-up episode, Lottie got the bone from a burnt out animal corpse - was that the same deer?  If they ate the deer, could that have contributed to any of the crazy they experienced in the later episodes (and in the coming seasons)?

I have no idea, but I feel like somebody somewhere said that was a thing that could happen with deer and that it didn't actually make the meat bad.

5 hours ago, Tatum said:

I thought this was the beginning of the end for Jackie/Shauna. Jackie is explaining that she wasn't trying to abandon Van, she just wanted to get Shauna away from the potentially exploding airplane (generally not a bad idea, it wouldn't help Van if all three of them burned up, and it didn't seem like Shauna was making any headway getting her loose) and Shauna didn't exactly tell Jackie to stuff it but she didn't seem too impressed or interested in reassuring Jackie, which Jackie clearly wanted her to do.

Yeah, I agree that was a great moment to immediately show the cracks--not even so much in their relationship but in Jackie's position. Sure, it would have been worse if Jackie had run out herself and left Shauna behind, but the fact that she pulled her with her wasn't a sacrifice for Shauna. So when she tried to play it that way, like Shauna ought to take a minute to think about how Jackie was thinking about her and trying to save her, it just fell too flat for Shauna to even pretend to support.  As Shauna says later, Jackie's just spent a lifetime assuming Shauna will follow her. Jackie wanted to escape and she didn't want to escape alone.

5 hours ago, Tatum said:

 

I can't tell how realistic Jackie's character was after the 9th or 10th episode. I understand in the beginning, Jackie was not willing to learn any survival skills because she didn't want to concede, even to herself, that they were going to be there indefinitely, but you'd think after many months of not being found, of clearly noticing she was regularly overruled and ignored, she'd start to adjust her attitude. No one is saying she has to say prayers to the dirt gods, but maybe don't openly mock the two people who have a lot more influence than she does? Don't shout at the group over how fucked up they were? (I mean, fair point, but you're outnumbered here, Jackie, and there is no authority you can run and complain to anymore. Even in high school in the 90s, there was discussions of mob mentality and how quickly things could get scary).

I could believe it. I mean, in terms of her seeing her status slipping I think she did see that. That part wasn't really getting past her. But I could believe she still wasn't able to embrace the values of her new society. She probably didn't ever have to work too hard to get to the top of the hierarchy in high school--or at least, she didn't have to work hard at stuff that didn't interest her--so she wasn't automatically going to be looking for how to climb to the top of this one. It's like the coach says to her about why she's captain--she didn't have the skills, she just had "it" that gave her influence. 

Since all of this looked so obviously weird to her, I can totally believe she thought just pointing it out would make a difference. More on survival skills below.

3 hours ago, izabella said:

I recall Jackie washing the period cloths they were using during the menstruation episode.  It was when Shauna was trying to hide from everyone that she was pregnant and used animal blood to make fake pads.  So she was doing something.

I think you might be misremembering that. In the scene where Shauna drops her fake blood pad in the pot Jackie's not washing them--it's actually one of the scenes where people are pointedly noticing that she's not helping. She just happens to be sitting nearby the pot. In the next episode, iirc, there's another scene of everyone doing stuff in the yard with Jackie not being part of it.

30 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I understand not wanting to accept that they weren’t going to be rescued anytime soon, but after 6 months her views should have adjusted. Not everyone is going to be good at hunting, but anyone can assist in preparing food, etc. And I can’t see ANY reason why, after 6 months (180 long days!), she hadn’t ever even attempted to learn how to start a simple small fire. I can be lazy, too, but I can’t imagine expecting everyone else to do the work for me and serve me every day for 6 months. 

I think of Jackie's adjustment being a bit like people who move to a foreign country and never learn the language. They work out a system that works for them, talking to those people who speak their language, maybe being able to go to a few places, but after that they're fine. Since everything was getting done Jackie felt like she was doing her part just by being there. The other girls created a system around her, at which point it would have gotten more and more awkward for Jackie to have announced she wanted to take part. Not that I think she wanted to--and not that I think she wouldn't have been given a chance if she had. But she never seemed to feel like she should do that, as little as I can relate to that. I would have been desperate to find something I was good at!

I did start to notice things Jackie did help on. Usually they were momentary things that were beyond daily drudgery. She helps clear off the plane and wants to see it fly. She goes with the group to find Van and Tai in the woods. And of course she seems to take part in the decorations for Doomscoming. Oh, and she is one of the people taking a turn trying to shoot the gun, though it's simply impossible to imagine that she would have become one of the hunters.

[Chaos Theory]

People complain about tropes and character archetypes but they are a necessary shorthand for what a writer is trying to say and represent.   Laura Lee represented hope and faith and when she died the group lost its hope and faith that they would be rescued.  Jackie represented civilization and the confrontation between Shauna and Jackie where the group rejected Jackie was them rejecting civilization.  Lottie represents mysticism and the occult and as the group spends more and more time in the forest they latch on to that mysticism.    I am guessing Van represents their ability to overcome their surroundings even when it scars them inside and out.   And the coach represents the last of the old hierarchy chopped off at the leg early on.   Lame and unable to assert any real authority he would naturally have been given.  

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

People complain about tropes and character archetypes but they are a necessary shorthand for what a writer is trying to say and represent.   Laura Lee represented hope and faith and when she died the group lost its hope and faith that they would be rescued.  Jackie represented civilization and the confrontation between Shauna and Jackie where the group rejected Jackie was them rejecting civilization.  Lottie represents mysticism and the occult and as the group spends more and more time in the forest they latch on to that mysticism.    I am guessing Van represents their ability to overcome their surroundings even when it scars them inside and out.   

I'm really interesting to see what Van ends up representing or doing. She's my favorite too, and while on the surface she might not have seemed like the first girl one would expect to have gotten into the occult, it turns out she is very open to it. I can believe whatever her experiences were before will make that make sense--though her near-death experiences so far are obviously a big part of it, there's different ways she could have reacted to that. 

I love how when she insists there's "something happening" that they all sense, or something is with them, that the show isn't weighted towards or away from her pov. Like when she says that to Tai, I didn't feel like Tai was being that person in the horror movie Van referenced, the one that's stubbornly skeptic even while the bed's levitating or whatever. But at the same time, it didn't seem like she was right that Van was just traumatized. I love the show keeping it murky. For the characters logical rules of nature don't work because their situation is too overwhelming, but for the audience not knowing the exact genre things might be works just as well!

I just read that article Melanie Lynsky tweeted about how well the show depicts trauma and that's another reason I think it all feels real. Though one line in it did make me wonder. It pointed out how some of the characters who seemed to have already endured trauma (like Nat and Travis with abuse, Misty with bullying and I would also suggest Van given her mother's clearly some sort of addict) were able to jump in and act right away while someone like Jackie was knocked sideways. But it made me wonder, too, about the girls who seem to have stable home lives but also seemed to be able to act quickly, like Tai and Shauna. Personality probably plays some part outside of just experiences.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I have no idea, but I feel like somebody somewhere said that was a thing that could happen with deer and that it didn't actually make the meat bad.

I'm pretty sure it was Coach Ben that said that.

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It pointed out how some of the characters who seemed to have already endured trauma (like Nat and Travis with abuse ...

How did I miss that Travis was abused? Was it by his dad, the coach that died? That would make him make a lot more sense to me than he did previously lol.

[Tatum]

28 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm pretty sure it was Coach Ben that said that.

How did I miss that Travis was abused? Was it by his dad, the coach that died? That would make him make a lot more sense to me than he did previously lol.

Wondering this too. I remember Travis saying his dad was a jerk who didn't like him (Travis) but I don't remember anything else. Javi seemed very close to his dad but that doesn't always mean anything...

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm pretty sure it was Coach Ben that said that.

Ha--totally didn't remember. Guess I'll take his word for it!

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

How did I miss that Travis was abused? Was it by his dad, the coach that died? That would make him make a lot more sense to me than he did previously lol.

That's what the reviewer was referring to, and I assume they meant his dad. I don't think we have details about it, but it probably wouldn't have to be anything too violent to count, for instance. At least it didn't to the person writing the article.

[Brn2bwild]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:34 PM, sistermagpie said:

Her staying in the exact same headspace/world she'd always lived in did allow her to react to the other girls' drugged craziness as actual craziness, yes. But it also led to her focusing on herself rather than the group, not helping with chores and not being able to start a fire. It also, I think, kept her from having an ill-will toward Misty not because she was clear-headed but because she still saw Misty as she always had been: a girl too unpopular for her to have strong feelings about. Where as other people had damn good reasons for being war of Misty, who had drugged them all, and was dangerous eager to play savior with anything medical. Nobody knew she'd destroyed the black box, but it was pretty in line with the rest of her behavior. Since Jackie hadn't eaten or drunk anything at the ball, she not only didn't much know what Misty did, but didn't really care.

There's more to it than Jackie not viewing Misty as a popularity threat.  She's actually kind to Misty on at least one occasion -- I remember the scene where she paints (or puts makeup on?) Misty's face before the Doomcoming.  She gives Misty advice about men and tells her she's pretty.  I don't think it's just to gain status by sucking up to Misty (because even if Misty has more, it's not much), and if she views herself as a popular person, she could easily afford to ignore or dismiss Misty.  I think Jackie genuinely does not have strong dislike for many people.  Nat seems to be the exception; even with Tai, it's not really until the last episode she expresses animosity.

5 hours ago, Tatum said:

I'm pretty sure it was Coach Ben that said that.

How did I miss that Travis was abused? Was it by his dad, the coach that died? That would make him make a lot more sense to me than he did previously lol.

I remember Coach Ben said that the gory antlers were nothing to fear because deer shed their antlers, but don't remember him saying that eating the maggot-filled insides was no big deal.  I do remember reading an article later that said it was not unusual for white-tailed deer to have such pests inside.

[sistermagpie]

21 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

There's more to it than Jackie not viewing Misty as a popularity threat.  She's actually kind to Misty on at least one occasion -- I remember the scene where she paints (or puts makeup on?) Misty's face before the Doomcoming.  She gives Misty advice about men and tells her she's pretty.  I don't think it's just to gain status by sucking up to Misty (because even if Misty has more, it's not much), and if she views herself as a popular person, she could easily afford to ignore or dismiss Misty.  I think Jackie genuinely does not have strong dislike for many people.  Nat seems to be the exception; even with Tai, it's not really until the last episode she expresses animosity.

Oh, I didn't think she was sucking up to Misty--I don't think she saw Misty as in any way having a higher status than her either. I thought she was just being nice to her. That seems to be, in fact, the only moment where someone is just kind to Misty and I think Jackie had any ulterior motive with it. I can't even imagine what one would be! I was just meaning that I don't think her attitude towards Misty is all the different from everyone else's in general. She wasn't drugged by her, so she wasn't angry at her about that. She's not mean to her for fun--but isn't friends with her either.

I do think one reason I can imagine her enjoying helping Misty out there was just that getting ready for a dance was exactly the type of activity that's important back at school.

I don't see Jackie as having any particularly strong animosity towards anyone either...but neither does anyone else. The plot for this season really didn't turn on conflicts between the girls. Nobody seems to come into the situation with any on-going dislike. I don't even think Jackie's supposed to have any active dislike of Natalie--I mean, she's obviously not going after Travis to intentionally hurt her or anything.  She probably has the same prejudices about Natalie's home life etc. as other people, but that's going to be there with all of them.

21 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I remember Coach Ben said that the gory antlers were nothing to fear because deer shed their antlers, but don't remember him saying that eating the maggot-filled insides was no big deal.  I do remember reading an article later that said it was not unusual for white-tailed deer to have such pests inside.

That must be it--yes. I do remember him saying that about the antlers but I don't think we saw anything about the deer after Shauna sliced it open and it seemed like a sign.

[Avabelle]

Who was the girl impaled in the seat in front of Misty the first episode when plane crashed? 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Avabelle said:

Who was the girl impaled in the seat in front of Misty the first episode when plane crashed? 

Presumably the girl they talked about at the funeral who had tickets to see Oasis and played the flute.

[Avabelle]

I don’t recall her at all. I’m only on episode three though. 

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

I don’t recall her at all. I’m only on episode three though. 

We never actually see her, so there's nothing to recall. The others just say those things at her funeral. None of them knew her very well, so they don't have any actual memories of her. (My answer was looking ahead to stuff in the next ep so it was confusing, sorry.)

Edited September 16, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Avaleigh]

I binge watched this and am hooked. I'd heard it described as a Lord of the Flies with teen girls and wasn't really sold on that description. A colleague suggested it to me though and since we have similar taste, I convinced my husband to give it a try with me. So glad we did!

Misty is such a big ball of crazy, I don't know where to start in unpacking all of that. Do none of the survivors know what she did to the black box? She might be one of the most evil characters on any series I've ever seen. Just a complete psycho. Her weird ass fatal attraction shit with the coach? She admits to wanting to poison him (?!) Injuring him so she can take care of him. Not to mention she has a case of the crazy eyes. Still, all that being said, what a good character. Both actresses are doing an excellent job. I love Christina Ricci and would like to see her get some attention. She's so darkly funny here. The way she described dating at their age "like looking for chips at the bottom of a bag" was both funny and depressing.

Jackie's death. I'm in the minority in that I didn't mind her going out like that. I was so worried that she was going to meet a violent end and that they'd end up eating her and she just fell asleep and didn't wake up. She got the most peaceful death a character could have in that situation so I was okay with it. 

It was frustrating that Jackie didn't pick up any survival skills in all those months when most of the others did. At the same time, I value that she was the only one who called out their animal like behavior and the fact that they almost killed that one guy. Now there isn't anyone around except maybe Tai who is going to be able to stand up to Lottie and her cult. 

Last thing I have to comment on--Shauna having brunch every year with Jackie's parents. Jackie's mother was so rude and cruel. I can't decide if it was deliberate with her rudeness or not. I'm glad the husband stood up for her. I wasn't expecting him to defend her so that felt good. Basically, Shauna wasn't as pretty as Jackie and the mom is still able to use that to make Shauna feel like shit about everything else. Shauna was smart and talented and had a bright future just like Jackie did but Jackie's mother wants to act like Shauna was a loser because she hadn't settled down with a boyfriend at the age of 17 or whatever? Like, what is wrong with this lady? On top of that she resents Shauna for living and having the colossal nerve to not be out of this world successful. Shauna has a normal life and there's nothing wrong with that. If she wants more, she still has time to fulfill some dreams. She's not a waste of space the way Jackie's mother was more or less implying. Also, those gifts of Jackie's that the mom kept giving her. I hope she never visits them again.

[sistermagpie]

20 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I binge watched this and am hooked. I'd heard it described as a Lord of the Flies with teen girls and wasn't really sold on that description. A colleague suggested it to me though and since we have similar taste, I convinced my husband to give it a try with me. So glad we did!

IKR? From the first scene I was like...oh, this wasn't what I quite expected!

20 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

It was frustrating that Jackie didn't pick up any survival skills in all those months when most of the others did. At the same time, I value that she was the only one who called out their animal like behavior and the fact that they almost killed that one guy. Now there isn't anyone around except maybe Tai who is going to be able to stand up to Lottie and her cult. 

And probably Natalie. She was off with Ben when the crazy started with Doomcoming and wasn't there when Jackie left either. Though I have to wonder about her and Travis coming back to the cabin and either not noticing her or just thinking she wanted to sleep outside!

20 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 On top of that she resents Shauna for living and having the colossal nerve to not be out of this world successful. Shauna has a normal life and there's nothing wrong with that. If she wants more, she still has time to fulfill some dreams. She's not a waste of space the way Jackie's mother was more or less implying. Also, those gifts of Jackie's that the mom kept giving her. I hope she never visits them again.

I thought it was all just the first part--she resents her for living so always has to talk about how ironic it is that Shauna, the dumber, less attractive, less charismatic girl with fewer expectations lived and brilliant Jackie died. Had Jackie lived she probably would have had a life much more like Shauna's (in fact Shauna may have almost chosen Jackie's life out of guilt, somehow) but since she died young, just like Shauna said, she gets to be the high school princess forever. Her mother seems to have always had an exaggerated view of her abilities, so probably would have treated Shauna as the also-ran no matter what, but given the way things worked out it's really cruel. The woman seems to focus all her anger at losing her daughter on passive-aggressively punishing her former best friend. She doesn't even seem to resent Jeff for marrying her, probably because she imagines Jackie would have moved on to somebody much better.

She also almost seems to project stuff on Callie just so she can be another "special" girl better than Shauna.

[Black Knight]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Though I have to wonder about her and Travis coming back to the cabin and either not noticing her or just thinking she wanted to sleep outside!

Travis wouldn't have given up quickly on trying to find his brother. My guess is they gave up once snow began falling and temps really dropped, understanding that it would be dangerous for them to stay out there. And there was always the chance Javi might have made his way back to the cabin while they were out looking for him. So by the point they got back to the cabin, it would have been very dark and Jackie mostly covered with snow. I can easily see them not noticing her under such circumstances.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Travis wouldn't have given up quickly on trying to find his brother. My guess is they gave up once snow began falling and temps really dropped, understanding that it would be dangerous for them to stay out there. And there was always the chance Javi might have made his way back to the cabin while they were out looking for him. So by the point they got back to the cabin, it would have been very dark and Jackie mostly covered with snow. I can easily see them not noticing her under such circumstances.

That's pretty much the conclusion I came to too. The fire was probably out and it was dark and they'd have no reason to even be looking over there. But then it must be doubly surreal for the two of them waking up the next morning and finding her dead!

[aghst]

Finally finished the season.  The brief glimpses of some ritual killing in the first episode or two made me wary, like it wasn't just killing each other to survive but there was some mythology to it, why some were apparently hunting each other down.

Then the early episodes showed the old timeline, where the girls were prepping for the trip and they ruthlessly broke the ankle of their teammate, because she was going to hurt the team -- um, why not just bench her?

Teen girls can be vicious and their social interactions can be hostile as that of any other group?

By the end of the season, you see the beginnings of some antagonism and Lottie leading a group who will have little tolerance for dissent.

Not sure I buy it but they haven't shown the whole story about what happened in the wilderness.

I'm suspicious that they won't show the whole story until maybe 3 or 4 seasons in, if not longer.  The incentive for the show runners is to keep the show on the air longer and Showtime has kept shows on for more seasons than probably merited -- Dexter, Homeland, Shameless and others.

They only show 4 survivors in the new timeline, Shauna, Nat, Taissa and Misti.  But in the finale, the suggestion is there may be others, such as Lottie.  In season 2 and beyond, they may reveal others.

Whatever the story is, some like Shauna may have been more lucky than smart to have survived.  The who thing with Adam and her confronting and killing him, then finding out it was Jeff who read her diaries and blackmailed them does not show that she's some mastermind or strategic thinker who survived because of her smarts.

Misti is a sociopath, starting with destroying the black box.  Like how did she think they would survive long enough to be found?  Then we see she abducts people and kills them.

Taissa may go around killing dogs in some ritual sacrifice in her sleep.

Nat may be the only one who's not crazy but she will go and shoot first, ask questions later.  She had to be rescued from blowing her head off by being abducted.

 

 

[Black Knight]

12 hours ago, aghst said:

Then the early episodes showed the old timeline, where the girls were prepping for the trip and they ruthlessly broke the ankle of their teammate, because she was going to hurt the team -- um, why not just bench her?

In regards to Alli, a few of the girls had a discussion about whether to ice her out or not, and even that was a split vote (and while Jackie wasn't part of the discussion, it was noted that she would be a nay vote). Tai acted totally alone in breaking Allie's ankle, and I honestly don't think she did it on purpose. She thought if she were hard on Allie during practice, Allie might be provoked into improving, and there was a short bit before the leg-breaking where Allie actually did improve, and Tai noted it and was pleased that her plan was working. So while she tripped Allie intentionally, I don't think she imagined that Allie would break her leg. Tai was just continuing with her plan since it seemed to be working.

I can see the show potentially getting through the rest of the wilderness stuff in S2. That's because there's quite a lot they need to cover about the immediate aftermath of the wilderness. At some point it's going to get very hard to keep up the present-day storylines without filling in that period of time, and I'm sure they want to actually show that stuff with the younger actors rather than have the older ones just tell it. And not all showrunners want to keep a series going as long as possible - Lost and GoT are famous examples.

[Affogato]

On 1/25/2023 at 10:19 AM, Black Knight said:

In regards to Alli, a few of the girls had a discussion about whether to ice her out or not, and even that was a split vote (and while Jackie wasn't part of the discussion, it was noted that she would be a nay vote). Tai acted totally alone in breaking Allie's ankle, and I honestly don't think she did it on purpose. She thought if she were hard on Allie during practice, Allie might be provoked into improving, and there was a short bit before the leg-breaking where Allie actually did improve, and Tai noted it and was pleased that her plan was working. So while she tripped Allie intentionally, I don't think she imagined that Allie would break her leg. Tai was just continuing with her plan since it seemed to be working.

I can see the show potentially getting through the rest of the wilderness stuff in S2. That's because there's quite a lot they need to cover about the immediate aftermath of the wilderness. At some point it's going to get very hard to keep up the present-day storylines without filling in that period of time, and I'm sure they want to actually show that stuff with the younger actors rather than have the older ones just tell it. And not all showrunners want to keep a series going as long as possible - Lost and GoT are famous examples.

I like the idea that eventually they will show the aftermath with the teen actors. It seems like an important part of the process.

[Affogato]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:21 PM, aghst said:

o have survived.  The who thing with Adam and her confronting and killing him, then finding out it was Jeff who read her diaries and blackmailed them does not show that she's some mastermind or strategic thinker who survived because of her smarts.

Misti is a sociopath, starting with destroying the black box.  Like how did she think they would survive long enough to be found?  Then we see she abducts people and kills them

 

They are all pretty lucky, the survivors, an infection or appendicitis could have killed any one of them. I can understand her not thinking it was Jeff, because he'd been around for years and the whole blackmail to save his store plot was just incredibly stupid. A number of times we see Adult Shauna acting violently on impulse. Killing that rabbit for dinner. Jumping down Adams throat about the fenderbender. Pouncing on the guy with the gun and actually taking it. I think killing Adam was in the same vein and was very likely not stupidity, but a result of her trauma. She attacks first.

I still don't think Misti could have destroyed the black box, but I can easily imagine she though she had. They are made to survived all kinds of disasters. I think she was, like several of the others, already bringing a lot of baggage into the wilderness. Since I'm here, I think Jackie's issues had a lot to do with her mother, trying to please her mother and doing what her mother wanted. I don't think Jackie ever figured out who Jackie was, separate from her mothers expectations, and her mother had given her no guidance for being in this sort of situation, so Jackie froze.

[peachmangosteen]

14 hours ago, Affogato said:

I don't think Jackie ever figured out who Jackie was, separate from her mothers expectations, and her mother had given her no guidance for being in this sort of situation, so Jackie froze.

I see what you did there lol.