Season 17: Van Buren Ain't Got Time for Detective Beauty Queen

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ugh, UGH, UGH! I deplore this season so, so much. The only bright spot is the introduction of Connie, and Van Buren's contempt for Cassady.

I also hate the cold openings that mirror Criminal Intent, along with the sonorous, drawn out music that is used in Criminal Intent, is used on THIS show. I almost don't recognize it.

I don't give any figgety bluedilly FUCKS about what the perps/defendants think. I find myself fast forwarding the cold opens and those scenes and just focus on the squad and the DA scenes.

[Spartan Girl]

At least she was only there for one season!

Boy, a lot of these episodes were infuriating. Especially “Home Sweet” where that little girl was BLOWN UP because of a fucking divorce dispute. And even though the ex-wife had been framed she didn’t even seem the least bit horrified that a child died. Those two assholes deserved each other.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Spartan Girl said:

At least she was only there for one season!

Boy, a lot of these episodes were infuriating. Especially “Home Sweet” where that little girl was BLOWN UP because of a fucking divorce dispute. And even though the ex-wife had been framed she didn’t even seem the least bit horrified that a child died. Those two assholes deserved each other.

Thank goodness for small favors. And I couldn't really buy her as a detective anyway, and her attempts at sounding tough were absolutely laughable.

Rick Eid wrote a few of the episodes here and last season and I wasn't paying attention, but he was co-executive producer in Season 16. I know that probably is just a figure title, and I checked out for 15, so don't know if he got involved with the show then.

I never noticed this before, and believe me, I LOVE Connie, but her attitude in "Corner Office" just frickin' annoyed me. Know what? If the saying 'What's good for the goose is good for the gander', then the opposite is also true. And this wasn't the first episode with a female CEO who tried to use the woman card; Lucie Arnaz's character tried to use it in Season 15.

I love Connie's awesome bullshit detector when it comes to female teens that Jack and Foghorn want to believe as naive, innocent cherubs, like the narcissistic murderer in "Avatar."

And I'd forgotten that Paul returned three times. His last appearance defending that murderer was so pointless and not worthy of him. I noticed there were no scenes between him and Jack, like there was in "Birthright."

[Arcadiasw]

Was Milena fired or did she quit after the season?

Cassidy was too green at times like the mistake of promising the pregnant woman of finding her husband's killer. Even a rookie should know not to do that. 

Also when that guy hit her and she walked around with that busted lip all episode. It was distracting and a gross eyesore. Not covering your wound isn't acting tough. It's stupid.

[GHScorpiosRule]

19 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

Was Milena fired or did she quit after the season?

Cassidy was too green at times like the mistake of promising the pregnant woman of finding her husband's killer. Even a rookie should know not to do that. 

Also when that guy hit her and she walked around with that busted lip all episode. It was distracting and a gross eyesore. Not covering your wound isn't acting tough. It's stupid.

I have no idea. I just remember being glad she was gone.

I'm watching and is it just me, or does Milena walk around sticking her chest out? It's weird. Her back is slightly arched in some scenes.

I'd like to know what asshole was directing her to do that.

Ron Silver! I loved him! I thought his Bernie (defense attorney) in "Talking Points" was a hoot!

To Connie: "You can call me Bernie."

I just really really was not fan of the political bent the show succumbed to in the latter seasons.

[Xeliou66]

I think season 17 is probably the weakest season overall - Detective Beauty Queen was a horrid, lifeless character and the writing just wasn’t quite as good as it was in other seasons. That being said, it was still solid, the worst of L&O is still better than most of the other crap on tv, and there were some good episodes in season 17.

I just saw The Family Hour, the season finale/final episode for Branch and Beauty Queen, I like this episode a lot, very entertaining, I think that the senator’s family may be the most dysfunctional family in L&O history, what a massively fucked up family that was. I’ve said before though, I’m really surprised that no one noticed Rodgers naming the wrong book - the defense attorney didn’t double check, the senator, a fan of crime fiction, apparently didn’t know that Rodgers made an error, and no one in the gallery following the trial knew despite it being a high profile case. I found that odd, and it makes me wonder if the Senator could appeal his conviction if it was brought to his attention Rodgers screwed up. I agreed with Jack about informing the judge, although I understood where Arthur/Connie were coming from as well, because the judge might’ve declared a mistrial and who knows what would’ve happened, it was a hard call. I liked seeing Connie give the closing argument, and I liked the final scene between Jack/Arthur as well.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Jack was being a bit hypocritical about turning over Rodgers’s letter/statement, when in previous episodes, he’s kept more technical exculpatory evidence, claiming they weren’t and he didn’t need to turn it over to the defense.

And the case wouldn’t have been declared a mistrial under a more competent judge because the State had more evidence than just Rodgers’s testimony against Michael Kuzack Senator Bailey.

[Xeliou66]

25 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Jack was being a bit hypocritical about turning over Rodgers’s letter/statement, when in previous episodes, he’s kept more technical exculpatory evidence, claiming they weren’t and he didn’t need to turn it over to the defense.

And the case wouldn’t have been declared a mistrial under a more competent judge because the State had more evidence than just Rodgers’s testimony against Michael Kuzack Senator Bailey.

It was interesting that Jack was the one who was intent on turning Rodgers’ letter over to the judge when in the past he had withheld material like that, maybe he learned from his past experiences, after all he got hauled before the disciplinary committee in season 8 for withholding a statement.

And yeah a competent judge wouldn’t declare a mistrial, he would just strike that portion of Rodgers testimony, but that judge wasn’t competent, so who knows what he would’ve done, I have to say it was pretty funny when the judge almost broke down in tears in chambers earlier in the episode. 

[Arcadiasw]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

It was interesting that Jack was the one who was intent on turning Rodgers’ letter over to the judge when in the past he had withheld material like that, maybe he learned from his past experiences, after all he got hauled before the disciplinary committee in season 8 for withholding a statement.

And yeah a competent judge wouldn’t declare a mistrial, he would just strike that portion of Rodgers testimony, but that judge wasn’t competent, so who knows what he would’ve done, I have to say it was pretty funny when the judge almost broke down in tears in chambers earlier in the episode. 

I thought the same thing of Jack learning from facing the disciplinary committee and his stance on the matter would've been clearer if he said that.

That judge was the worst! If Adam was still there, we would've gotten a scene of Adam threatening to have him remove as he did with the one going over the line with Jamie. 

Don't know if it was intentional for Milena to be gone after this season but I can see this case be the final straw for Van Buren to be done with her and transfer Cassady to another precinct.

I like the closing conversation between Jack and Arthur. It shows Arthur has changed his stance on Jack not being a DA. Maybe Jack showed to Arthur he can do the job since that conversation or it could've been the writers hinting Jack will take over since Thompson already let them know he is leaving to run for president 🤷‍♀️

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Arcadiasw

[GHScorpiosRule]

Jack faced disciplinary committee over the testimony of the flight attendant; but there were a couple other times before and I think, even after he faced them, where he argued this document or that wasn't exculpatory and the defense didn't need to see it.

The only time we heard Jack say he was wrong about his stance was when he referenced that Munchausen by Proxy mother who kept killing her babies in "Precious" and Jack had posited she should be sterilized.

I don't even know why the show/writers even created such a joke of a judge for this finale. For such a serious matter and with political ramifications/pressures, an arrogant assholey judge like from "I.D." or the recurring asshole of a judge played by Ron McLarty would have been more appropriate.

And as for Rodgers's mistake, well, it would be on the defense to impeach her, and they didn't. Even when she told them the name of the book, Bailey's lawyer didn't verify it. And she just got the wrong book. She was correct that the method of stabbing oneself was a fiction plot. Who's to say Bailey didn't also have that book? And since he had all the first editions of the wrong book, why didn't he tell his lawyer that Rodgers was wrong?

So I doubt that there was cause for mistrial. Jack could have appealed it.

I also loved Connie's closing. It reminded me of Stone's closing in "Forgiveness" when he picked up the pipe and swung it to show how many times Bertram had hit Beth when he murdered her. Of course, Connie's stabbing the book was more powerful, with that thwacking sound of the knife.

On 2/3/2022 at 11:15 AM, Arcadiasw said:

Don't know if it was intentional for Milena to be gone after this season but I can see this case be the final straw for Van Buren to be done with her and transfer Cassady to another precinct.

I'm wondering if the decision had already been made she wouldn't come back, so we got that line. Just as we knew that season five would be Noth's final season toward the middle or end of season five, so we got Mike popping the homophobic murdering councilman.

I think the only one Wolf wasn't prepared for was Dzundza leaving at the end of season one.

But yeah, that stupid twit just wouldn't listen and kept going half-cocked, practically every single time.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xeliou66]

I just found it odd that the defense attorney didn’t even bother to check the facts on Rodgers testimony, and also that the Senator didn’t know Rodgers named the wrong book, given that he was such a fan of crime fiction.

I also loved Connie’s closing argument, very passionate and powerful. And I loved the closing scene between Jack/Arthur as well, it showed that despite frequently having different opinions on the law and legal issues, Jack and Arthur did respect each other, and I liked Arthur’s line about how the law wasn’t mathematics and they couldn’t try cases by applying a formula, and it was a good way to end the season signaling that Jack was about to become DA.

[Jaded]

I still get pretty peeved when I think about what they decided to do the one time a female partner on the mothership got a shot. The damn Beauty Queen crap from this season will never not chap my hide. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Jaded

[Prairie Rose]

I still can't decide if Milena Govich's acting (never seen her in anything else) was the problem, the writing or both. Sadly, the rest of the Season 17 cast was so strong and tightly bonded that she just stuck out all the more. She did get a scene I enjoyed - when Green/Cassady were on a motel balcony chasing a perp and Cassady just wails on him. Green can't stop laughing, "you got beat up by a girl!"

These days, MG seems to have found her niche behind the camera - working as a director and a producer for another Dick Wolf franchise, FBI. She also has a music career.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, Prairie Rose said:

I still can't decide if Milena Govich's acting (never seen her in anything else) was the problem, the writing or both. Sadly, the rest of the Season 17 cast was so strong and tightly bonded that she just stuck out all the more. She did get a scene I enjoyed - when Green/Cassady were on a motel balcony chasing a perp and Cassady just wails on him. Green can't stop laughing, "you got beat up by a girl!"

These days, MG seems to have found her niche behind the camera - working as a director and a producer for another Dick Wolf franchise, FBI. She also has a music career.

Was Nina the first female L&O detective? I think so?
I wonder how they came up with Nina's narrative of having been fast-tracked to detective because of one successful heroic act as a "meter maid," and what was the motivation for that narrative?
Were the writers trying to get in front of possible audience objections to a woman in that role?
Or, conversely, was there a push from TPTB to cast a woman when there was a preferred male actor already "waiting in the wings" so to speak? 

Do any of you long-time super L&O fans know what was going on behind-the-scenes regarding the creation of and the writing for the character of Nina?

Most of the talk about the character of Nina on message boards has consisted of expressing annoyance at the annoying things that the character did--which is fine appropriate to do.
But what I want to know now is: Why was the first female detective on the show written as annoying?

And...
Stupid-but-easier-to-answer question:
Does 21 have a female detective?

[Arcadiasw]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Were the writers trying to get in front of possible audience objections to a woman in that role?
Or, conversely, was there a push from TPTB to cast a woman when there was a preferred male actor already "waiting in the wings" so to speak? 


Stupid-but-easier-to-answer question:
Does 21 have a female detective?

It feels like the latter to me. I think it was the first episode where Van Buren told Cassady she had an experience detective lined up for Green when Fontana retired but she was forced to take her. Felt like the writers were telling the audience something 🤔 Or I could be overanalyzing.

No female detective in 21 except Carolyn Manheim as Squad Commander.

 

[shapeshifter]

20 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

It feels like the latter to me. I think it was the first episode where Van Buren told Cassady she had an experience detective lined up for Green when Fontana retired but she was forced to take her. Felt like the writers were telling the audience something 🤔 Or I could be overanalyzing.

No female detective in 21 except Carolyn Manheim as Squad Commander.

Interesting.
Maybe with the reboot we'll get an interview that mentions if Van Buren's line about a (presumably male?) detective already "lined up" (before Nina was forced onto the team) was a case of art imitating life in that some network execs ordered casting and writers to make the new detective a female.
--And perhaps she was supposed to be a "[hot] beauty queen" a la Angie Dickinson from "Police Woman." 
If so, kudos to the writers for turning that on its head!
Of course, this is just me spit-balling with a bit of devil's advocating. I know nothing. At least not specifically about L&O casting decisions from decades ago when I didn't even have a TV.

Pretty sure I win the "overanalyzing" award, hee.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Interesting.
Maybe with the reboot we'll get an interview that mentions if Van Buren's line about a (presumably male?) detective already "lined up" (before Nina was forced onto the team) was a case of art imitating life in that some network execs ordered casting and writers to make the new detective a female.
--And perhaps she was supposed to be a "[hot] beauty queen" a la Angie Dickinson from "Police Woman." 
If so, kudos to the writers for turning that on its head!
Of course, this is just me spit-balling with a bit of devil's advocating. I know nothing. At least not specifically about L&O casting decisions from decades ago when I didn't even have a TV.

Pretty sure I win the "overanalyzing" award, hee.

Why would they? It happened well over 15 years ago and there’s been a gap of 12 years since the show ended. 
 

[Door County Cherry]

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Were the writers trying to get in front of possible audience objections to a woman in that role?
Or, conversely, was there a push from TPTB to cast a woman when there was a preferred male actor already "waiting in the wings" so to speak? 

Do any of you long-time super L&O fans know what was going on behind-the-scenes regarding the creation of and the writing for the character of Nina?

I may have written this elsewhere. I can't remember.  But I think this show, like many TV shows, suffers from the "but would I want to fuck her?" syndrome.  Ken Levine talked a lot about this in his blog on TV and how he'd be casting for a series and his preferred choices for lead actress sometimes got nixed because some exec /higher up didn't find her "fuckable" enough. As in, they literally said that.  

I don't think they considered it too much when casting for the authoritative figure (Van Buren or the DA) but it's pretty clear in their "junior" choices.  All of the women assistants to Stone, McCoy and Cutter were younger and hotter.  And it continues in S21.  And Nina is considered "new" or junior to the Green character so they hired a young model-looking actress. 

I don't know if she was bad the writing for her definitely wanted to put her in her place. I don't think that was done to placate an audience. I think they thought they were being clever because of the age of the actress at the time.  She was young for her position. 

I don't think they had Sisto waiting in the wings. I just think they messed up the writing from the get go.  It's hard to know if the writing had been better whether she would have been more well received. 

[wknt3]

On 2/20/2022 at 9:44 AM, shapeshifter said:

Were the writers trying to get in front of possible audience objections to a woman in that role?
Or, conversely, was there a push from TPTB to cast a woman when there was a preferred male actor already "waiting in the wings" so to speak?

 

14 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I may have written this elsewhere. I can't remember.  But I think this show, like many TV shows, suffers from the "but would I want to fuck her?" syndrome.  Ken Levine talked a lot about this in his blog on TV and how he'd be casting for a series and his preferred choices for lead actress sometimes got nixed because some exec /higher up didn't find her "fuckable" enough. As in, they literally said that.  

I don't think they considered it too much when casting for the authoritative figure (Van Buren or the DA) but it's pretty clear in their "junior" choices.  All of the women assistants to Stone, McCoy and Cutter were younger and hotter.  And it continues in S21.  And Nina is considered "new" or junior to the Green character so they hired a young model-looking actress. 

I don't know if she was bad the writing for her definitely wanted to put her in her place. I don't think that was done to placate an audience. I think they thought they were being clever because of the age of the actress at the time.  She was young for her position. 

I don't think they had Sisto waiting in the wings. I just think they messed up the writing from the get go.  It's hard to know if the writing had been better whether she would have been more well received. 

True as far as it goes, but the show had a pretty good track record of writing those young and hot actresses as smart and competent. But in this case as you said they screwed up the writing from the jump. And they never corrected to make her more believable and sympathetic which they also had a history of doing. I have heard, but not authoritatively and on the record, that during this time period NBC was really pushing the entire franchise to go younger and more attractive and that they really resented it. So they may have deliberately sabotaged the character so that they could say they tried it NBCs way and it didn't work. I doubt that they had Sisto waiting in the wings too or they wouldn't have had him do the whole guest star audition thing in the season finale, although they may well have had someone else in mind who was no longer available.

Edited February 21, 2022 by wknt3
fix typos

[Prairie Rose]

On 2/20/2022 at 9:13 PM, Door County Cherry said:

I don't know if she was bad the writing for her definitely wanted to put her in her place. I don't think that was done to placate an audience. I think they thought they were being clever because of the age of the actress at the time.  She was young for her position. 

I don't think they had Sisto waiting in the wings. I just think they messed up the writing from the get go.  It's hard to know if the writing had been better whether she would have been more well received. 

She already had one strike against her from Day One, when Van Buren revealed she wanted someone else on her squad and not Cassady. Maybe TPTB realistic that they had never had a male/female detective before and wanted to explore that. I don't know. I do think that the Cassady failure was more on the writers and not on Govich.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Prairie Rose said:

She already had one strike against her from Day One, when Van Buren revealed she wanted someone else on her squad and not Cassady. Maybe TPTB realistic that they had never had a male/female detective before and wanted to explore that. I don't know. I do think that the Cassady failure was more on the writers and not on Govich.

Nope. By the time season 17 rolled around, we had SVU, which had a female detective. At least two; then there's Criminal Intent. They all shared writers and at this time, were in the same universe. I think that line from Van Buren was just that-a line to demonstrate that Cassady, a cop with NO HOMICIDE experience, and who was very flippant, had to prove she deserved to be there. And she failed. MISERABLY.

Edited February 22, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Prairie Rose]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Nope. By the time season 17 rolled around, we had SVU, which had a female detective. At least two; then there's Criminal Intent. They all shared writers and at this time, were in the same universe. I think that line from Van Buren was just that-a line to demonstrate that Cassady, a cop with NO HOMICIDE experience, and who was very flippant, had to prove she deserved to be there. And she failed. MISERABLY.

Well, I meant a male/female detective team on the Mothership.

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 minutes ago, Prairie Rose said:

Well, I meant a male/female detective team on the Mothership.

I know. But I was responding to your comment that just because the mothership didn't have a male/female partnership before didn't mean they couldn't write one, seeing as the same writers and producers were working on all three shows.

[Prairie Rose]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I know. But I was responding to your comment that just because the mothership didn't have a male/female partnership before didn't mean they couldn't write one, seeing as the same writers and producers were working on all three shows.

Yeah, they really didn't have an excuse.

[Prairie Rose]

I think this particular episode aired in S17, because it was fairly late in the show's run and Jack was still EADA. The defense attorney said to the jury, "How many of you are a -" and recited a list of racial slurs. Jack repeatedly screamed "YOUR HONOR!" while the judge repeatedly pounded her gavel. I just don't remember the episode name or the season it aired. Can anyone help?

[Xeliou66]

25 minutes ago, Prairie Rose said:

I think this particular episode aired in S17, because it was fairly late in the show's run and Jack was still EADA. The defense attorney said to the jury, "How many of you are a -" and recited a list of racial slurs. Jack repeatedly screamed "YOUR HONOR!" while the judge repeatedly pounded her gavel. I just don't remember the episode name or the season it aired. Can anyone help?

That was Talking Points, episode 13 of season 17. One of my least favorite episodes actually, I felt like it was just inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory, and I thought it was absurd that the judge didn’t declare an immediate mistrial after the attorney spewed all of those racial slurs. That episode did have a great line by Arthur when he told the political pundit who was the intended victim that all she did was make people “madder than a hound dog with a head cold”, I loved that line. But otherwise the episode was crap IMO.

[Prairie Rose]

8 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

That was Talking Points, episode 13 of season 17. One of my least favorite episodes actually, I felt like it was just inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory, and I thought it was absurd that the judge didn’t declare an immediate mistrial after the attorney spewed all of those racial slurs. That episode did have a great line by Arthur when he told the political pundit who was the intended victim that all she did was make people “madder than a hound dog with a head cold”, I loved that line. But otherwise the episode was crap IMO.

Thank you. Yes, I remember Charlotte Ross did a great job playing the Ann Coulter/Laura Ingraham type character. 

[Xeliou66]

The season 17 premiere, Fame, was just on, and Beauty Queen was such a terrible character, I have no idea who thought she was a good idea, but she was just terrible and her introduction was so bad, she came across as arrogant and clueless at the same time, and she didn’t improve as the season went on.

On the other hand, Connie’s introduction was excellent, I think she is my favorite of the characters to have had the 2nd chair role, and right off the bat she had way more personality than the previous 2 characters in that role combined. She really gave new life to the legal side of the show. 

As for the case, I hated Sky Sweet, yes she was set up by her piece of shit husband J-Train to use drugs while pregnant, but she still could’ve chosen not to, and she seemed to care more about her career than about the fact that her husband murdered a police officer. She got no sympathy from me, it’s just J-Train was a bigger piece of shit and a murderer.

While I’m not a fan of personal stuff, I thought the little bit about Jack’s daughter was worked nicely into the plot and I liked how that set the stage for us to see Jack meet up with his daughter at the restaurant later in the season. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

The season 17 premiere, Fame, was just on, and Beauty Queen was such a terrible character, I have no idea who thought she was a good idea, but she was just terrible and her introduction was so bad, she came across as arrogant and clueless at the same time, and she didn’t improve as the season went on.

On the other hand, Connie’s introduction was excellent, I think she is my favorite of the characters to have had the 2nd chair role, and right off the bat she had way more personality than the previous 2 characters in that role combined. She really gave new life to the legal side of the show. 

As for the case, I hated Sky Sweet, yes she was set up by her piece of shit husband J-Train to use drugs while pregnant, but she still could’ve chosen not to, and she seemed to care more about her career than about the fact that her husband murdered a police officer. She got no sympathy from me, it’s just J-Train was a bigger piece of shit and a murderer.

While I’m not a fan of personal stuff, I thought the little bit about Jack’s daughter was worked nicely into the plot and I liked how that set the stage for us to see Jack meet up with his daughter at the restaurant later in the season. 

This was sooooo clearly about Brittny Spears and Kevin Federline. 
 

Totally agree about Connie’s introduction. I loved her. 

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This was sooooo clearly about Brittny Spears and Kevin Federline. 
 

Totally agree about Connie’s introduction. I loved her. 

Oh yes it was definitely ripped from the headlines about them.

Yeah Connie was great right off the bat, she’s one of my favorites, because of her the legal side had more life in season 17, if they had kept Borgia I don’t think the show would’ve gone on. 

[Xeliou66]

Home Sweet was just on, while this is just an average episode IMO, it was rather boring and predictable, I love the scene where Arthur confronts the ridiculously biased Judge Milbanks at the sushi restaurant and gets her to recuse herself after Jack and Connie failed to do so, she was so ridiculously biased and I loved Arthur shutting her down for playing politics with the law and getting her to recuse herself, and then when asked if he was eating there, he said “no way, we like our fish fried!” that was pretty great. And that attorney who handled the arraignment was remarkably green and awkward, but I liked how Connie didn’t humiliate her. Other than that, the episode was just average, not bad but rather predictable and not as intriguing as it could’ve been, maybe it’s just Beauty Queen was so damn dull, maybe it was the ending was risky by the DA’s to collude with the defense to trap the killer and I’m not sure if I bought it that the perp would just confess because he hated his ex so much. But the scene with Arthur and the judge is awesome.

[Xeliou66]

I just watched Deadlock, this might be my favorite season 17 episode, it’s very good - the first half is an intense manhunt and the scene where Vorgitch kills the children is horrifying, he was such a menace and an evil piece of shit, and then when the father took the law into his own hands it’s interesting how the DA’s have to prosecute him for doing what they were trying to do - kill Vorgitch. It was a very good case and Jack was great, I loved his line about how “New York doesn’t have a do it yourself death penalty” and Jack’s closing argument was great, I liked how he said Purcell didn’t believe himself to be a judge, jury or executioner, but he chose to act as all three, and I liked how he pointed out that letting Purcell off just because the man he killed was evil would give everyone a free pass to kill bad people and it would be an endorsement of insanity and vigilantism and the system of justice would mean nothing. Jack has never liked vigilantes at all and that was a great closing. And I liked how the figured out his lawyer tipped Purcell off to kill Vorgitch in order to use him to boost her political career, and Arthur saying “now that’s justice” after the lawyer was indicted at the end. It’s a really good episode, as I’ve said before I think season 17 is probably the weakest season but it still has good episodes and Deadlock is probably the best IMO.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Xeliou66

[FozzyBear]

On 3/25/2022 at 4:25 PM, Xeliou66 said:

The season 17 premiere, Fame, was just on, and Beauty Queen was such a terrible character, I have no idea who thought she was a good idea, but she was just terrible and her introduction was so bad, she came across as arrogant and clueless at the same time, and she didn’t improve as the season went on.

On the other hand, Connie’s introduction was excellent, I think she is my favorite of the characters to have had the 2nd chair role, and right off the bat she had way more personality than the previous 2 characters in that role combined. She really gave new life to the legal side of the show. 

As for the case, I hated Sky Sweet, yes she was set up by her piece of shit husband J-Train to use drugs while pregnant, but she still could’ve chosen not to, and she seemed to care more about her career than about the fact that her husband murdered a police officer. She got no sympathy from me, it’s just J-Train was a bigger piece of shit and a murderer.

While I’m not a fan of personal stuff, I thought the little bit about Jack’s daughter was worked nicely into the plot and I liked how that set the stage for us to see Jack meet up with his daughter at the restaurant later in the season. 

I just watched this episode and was reminded about how confused I was about the end. The scumbag photographer implies he knows something about Jacks daughter and he went up to Maine to take some pictures of something. Then at the end Jack is sent an envelope of pictures. The implication is they are of Jacks daughter. Or at least I think so? But what are the pictures of? Are we supposed to understand she was doing something scandalous? Is Maine a popular place for rehab? Or is it known as a Meth Lab capital? Is it known for porn shoots? Like I just didn’t get it. If they’re just estranged because Jack is a self righteous jerk and was a philandering husband and absent father, and she’s just up in Maine living her life and going to the grocery store and whatnot while she ignores her fathers texts, what are the pictures of?

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, FozzyBear said:

I just watched this episode and was reminded about how confused I was about the end. The scumbag photographer implies he knows something about Jacks daughter and he went up to Maine to take some pictures of something. Then at the end Jack is sent an envelope of pictures. The implication is they are of Jacks daughter. Or at least I think so? But what are the pictures of? Are we supposed to understand she was doing something scandalous? Is Maine a popular place for rehab? Or is it known as a Meth Lab capital? Is it known for porn shoots? Like I just didn’t get it. If they’re just estranged because Jack is a self righteous jerk and was a philandering husband and absent father, and she’s just up in Maine living her life and going to the grocery store and whatnot while she ignores her fathers texts, what are the pictures of?

No they weren’t pics of her doing anything scandalous, they were just normal pictures I believe, Jack just hadn’t seen his daughter in almost a decade so he was interested in seeing her. We saw Jack’s daughter at the end of the episode Fallout where he met her at a restaurant, and it was implied they stayed in touch after that. I agree the way the Fame ended was a tad odd with the pictures. The reason behind Jack and his daughter being estranged I’ve wondered about, but I’ve never found Jack to be a self righteous jerk, and I don’t know if he cheated on his wife or not, he was very focused on his job but I don’t know why him and his daughter didn’t speak for 9 years.

[FozzyBear]

22 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

No they weren’t pics of her doing anything scandalous, they were just normal pictures I believe, Jack just hadn’t seen his daughter in almost a decade so he was interested in seeing her. We saw Jack’s daughter at the end of the episode Fallout where he met her at a restaurant, and it was implied they stayed in touch after that. I agree the way the Fame ended was a tad odd with the pictures. The reason behind Jack and his daughter being estranged I’ve wondered about, but I’ve never found Jack to be a self righteous jerk, and I don’t know if he cheated on his wife or not, he was very focused on his job but I don’t know why him and his daughter didn’t speak for 9 years.

You’re probably right. The writing in this season was pretty clunky and over dramatic anyway so it was probably supposed to just be pictures of her going to Target or whatever. It just struck me as odd the way the show was trying to play it up for scandal and drama when “Adult daughter of DA doesn’t spend much time with career focused dad” is not much of a story.

As for the philandering, the show had implied in earlier seasons that Jack had a bit of a reputation, especially when he was a younger. The self righteous jerk was my own edit. 😜

[andromeda331]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:29 PM, FozzyBear said:

You’re probably right. The writing in this season was pretty clunky and over dramatic anyway so it was probably supposed to just be pictures of her going to Target or whatever. It just struck me as odd the way the show was trying to play it up for scandal and drama when “Adult daughter of DA doesn’t spend much time with career focused dad” is not much of a story.

As for the philandering, the show had implied in earlier seasons that Jack had a bit of a reputation, especially when he was a younger. The self righteous jerk was my own edit. 😜

I can buy him cheating on his wife but not seeing his kid for 9 years. Jack never came off as that kind of parent. 

[WendyCR72]

I just spied Titus Welliver in "Profiteer". He's now best known as Det. Harry Bosch from the TV series, Bosch (and spinoff, Bosch: Legacy, based on the Michael Connelly novels) but naturally has been in a ton of other shows.

I guess it's true: Almost any actor worth their salt has appeared on the franchise. LOL.

 

[TakomaSnark]

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I just spied Titus Welliver in "Profiteer". He's now best known as Det. Harry Bosch from the TV series, Bosch (and spinoff, Bosch: Legacy, based on the Michael Connelly novels) but naturally has been in a ton of other shows.

I guess it's true: Almost any actor worth their salt has appeared on the franchise. LOL.

 

I'm always surprised when someone *hasn't* got at least one L&O credit on their CV.

[Xeliou66]

Watched Good Faith on WE today - it’s weird seeing Jeffery Donovan play the religious fanatic killer now that he plays Cosgrove, yet another example of an actor who guest starred before becoming a regular on an L&O show. I will say again - fuck Danielle Melnick, she was so damn self righteous and acted like what she was doing was making a good point - what exact point are you trying to make, Melnick, that someone who believes they are doing god’s work by killing someone should get a free pass? As Jack said, if faith is an excuse for murder, give a free pass to Osama Bin Laden. I don’t care what someone believes or how sincere their faith is, it’s never okay to kill someone because of it, and fuck Melnick for acting like it provides a legitimate justification defense. Melnick’s self righteous ass should’ve been disbarred back in season 13’s Open Season, and this episode just cements my disdain for Melnick. And Arthur was right about Judge Glover, she should never have allowed the defense. I liked Jack and Connie figuring out the guidance counselor was sleeping with Mary - I had mixed feelings about Mary, she lied about Nash sleeping with her and that got him killed, so I didn’t feel much sympathy for her, but she was messed up by having a father who was so obsessed with religious fervor. In the investigation part, I liked Van Buren’s interrogation of the punk who burned the other churches, Van Buren could be intimidating when she wanted to be and I liked her disgust with him.

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Watched Good Faith on WE today - it’s weird seeing Jeffery Donovan play the religious fanatic killer now that he plays Cosgrove, yet another example of an actor who guest starred before becoming a regular on an L&O show. I will say again - fuck Danielle Melnick, she was so damn self righteous and acted like what she was doing was making a good point - what exact point are you trying to make, Melnick, that someone who believes they are doing god’s work by killing someone should get a free pass? As Jack said, if faith is an excuse for murder, give a free pass to Osama Bin Laden. I don’t care what someone believes or how sincere their faith is, it’s never okay to kill someone because of it, and fuck Melnick for acting like it provides a legitimate justification defense. Melnick’s self righteous ass should’ve been disbarred back in season 13’s Open Season, and this episode just cements my disdain for Melnick. And Arthur was right about Judge Glover, she should never have allowed the defense.

Yes to everything here! Danielle definitely should have been disbarred but also in jail for her actions in Open Season for manslaughter and whatever charge for ignoring a court order. I like that Jack brings up Bin Laden since Danielle is arguing that very thing. If that's okay then it gives a free pass to him and including people completely believe their faith means killing people of other faiths. And again every criminal would claim that to get away with their crime. It's a bullshit argument and the judge was an idiot for allowing it.

Quote

 

I liked Jack and Connie figuring out the guidance counselor was sleeping with Mary - I had mixed feelings about Mary, she lied about Nash sleeping with her and that got him killed, so I didn’t feel much sympathy for her, but she was messed up by having a father who was so obsessed with religious fervor. In the investigation part, I liked Van Buren’s interrogation of the punk who burned the other churches, Van Buren could be intimidating when she wanted to be and I liked her disgust with him.

 

I really don't have any sympathy for Mary because she gave the wrong name. She knew her psycho father would do something to Nash but gave him the name of an innocent person who her father murdered. Had she not done that I would have sympathy for her. Her father is a psycho and was having a relationship with her teacher.

I love Van Buren's disgust too. She was awesome in her interrogation.

[Xeliou66]

8 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes to everything here! Danielle definitely should have been disbarred but also in jail for her actions in Open Season for manslaughter and whatever charge for ignoring a court order. I like that Jack brings up Bin Laden since Danielle is arguing that very thing. If that's okay then it gives a free pass to him and including people completely believe their faith means killing people of other faiths. And again every criminal would claim that to get away with their crime. It's a bullshit argument and the judge was an idiot for allowing it.

I really don't have any sympathy for Mary because she gave the wrong name. She knew her psycho father would do something to Nash but gave him the name of an innocent person who her father murdered. Had she not done that I would have sympathy for her. Her father is a psycho and was having a relationship with her teacher.

I love Van Buren's disgust too. She was awesome in her interrogation.

Melnick was so damn self righteous. She still acted like her position had strong merit at the end of the episode, and that was bullshit, it’s never okay to kill someone because of religious beliefs and Melnick’s logic had a ton of flaws, she acted like her client could read the mind of god, it was absurd and Judge Glover was an idiot for allowing such a defense. And yeah Melnick should’ve been disbarred years earlier, it still pisses me off how Jack went to bat for her in Open Season, Melnick didn’t deserve it. 
Mary did get an innocent person killed, but her father likely would’ve killed the guidance counselor if she had given his name and I guess Mary didn’t want him to get hurt, she was messed up by having such a nutbag dad. It was a good twist. I would’ve liked to have seen Olivet’s evaluation of the perp rather than just dropping a line about it.       
I always like when Van Buren interrogated someone, she could be intimidating without using force, she had a strong presence. This is one of the best season 17 episodes, as I’ve said before season 17 is probably L&O’s weakest season but it still had good episodes, this is one of the strongest. 

[WendyCR72]

To bring up something else regarding Milena Govich and Nina Cassady and her success/failure: She was cast for S17 the same time that Julianne Nicholson was cast as Megan Wheeler on Criminal Intent for its sixth season. Both women were fresh off the failed Conviction (the 2006 version, obviously!), so perhaps Dick Wolf was honoring something in their contracts and put them in other existing shows?

Or maybe he just liked them.

In any case, Wheeler stuck, Cassady didn't, and that was that.

[Spartan Girl]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I really don't have any sympathy for Mary because she gave the wrong name. She knew her psycho father would do something to Nash but gave him the name of an innocent person who her father murdered. Had she not done that I would have sympathy for her.

Even if she hadn’t known her father would kill him, she still would have knowingly falsely accused the teacher of raping her, which would have ruined his life. As it was, she didn’t seem that remorseful over her actions given how snide she was to Connie when she confronted her about the lie. So yeah, her father was an asshole and the guidance counselor a creep, but I didn’t feel sorry for her either.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Even if she hadn’t known her father would kill him, she still would have knowingly falsely accused the teacher of raping her, which would have ruined his life. As it was, she didn’t seem that remorseful over her actions given how snide she was to Connie when she confronted her about the lie. So yeah, her father was an asshole and the guidance counselor a creep, but I didn’t feel sorry for her either.

I agree she didn’t seem remorseful over what she had done, so I didn’t feel much sympathy for her either. But she was definitely in a bad circumstance, her father was a loon and the guidance counselor was using her situation to prey on her. 
It’s a good episode, but Melnick just drives me nuts in it, her arguments was epically ridiculous and flawed and yet she acted smug and thought she was making valid points the whole time. 

[andromeda331]

On 2/22/2023 at 10:37 AM, Xeliou66 said:

I agree she didn’t seem remorseful over what she had done, so I didn’t feel much sympathy for her either. But she was definitely in a bad circumstance, her father was a loon and the guidance counselor was using her situation to prey on her. 
It’s a good episode, but Melnick just drives me nuts in it, her arguments was epically ridiculous and flawed and yet she acted smug and thought she was making valid points the whole time. 

Melnick always thinks she is but she never is. Her arguments are always horrible and she never actually cares about her clients or representing them well only whether or not she can use them to fit whatever she wants to fight against at the moment. That's all she cares about. Advancing her opinions.

[Xeliou66]

I just saw Home Sweet, and while the episode itself is just average, the case was pretty predictable and unremarkable, but I’ll always love the scene of Arthur confronting the biased judge at the sushi restaurant and using his power to force her to recuse herself and then when the judge asked him about eating he replies “no way, we like our fish fried” - that was an awesome scene, one of my favorites with Arthur.

Watching Fear America now, Robinette’s final appearance, he was back to being pretty radical and accusing the NYPD and government of framing the Muslim guy who killed his cousin when he was informing about terrorist activity. Robinette was just all over the map when he came back, he was very different than when he was an ADA, radical most of the time but then he defended the white nurse who sterilized the young black girls in season 16, which was out of character for the anti establishment radical type he became. It just didn’t make a lot of sense what they did with him. This was a pretty good episode with an interesting plot, and Arthur had another good scene when he told the federal lawyer to get the hell out of his office after he accused Jack and Connie of leaking the uranium story to the press. One of the better season 17 episodes but Robinette didn’t make a lot of sense once again. 

[balmz]

 

On 5/30/2023 at 9:40 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I just saw Home Sweet, and while the episode itself is just average, the case was pretty predictable and unremarkable, but I’ll always love the scene of Arthur confronting the biased judge at the sushi restaurant and using his power to force her to recuse herself and then when the judge asked him about eating he replies “no way, we like our fish fried” - that was an awesome scene, one of my favorites with Arthur.

Watching Fear America now, Robinette’s final appearance, he was back to being pretty radical and accusing the NYPD and government of framing the Muslim guy who killed his cousin when he was informing about terrorist activity. Robinette was just all over the map when he came back, he was very different than when he was an ADA, radical most of the time but then he defended the white nurse who sterilized the young black girls in season 16, which was out of character for the anti establishment radical type he became. It just didn’t make a lot of sense what they did with him. This was a pretty good episode with an interesting plot, and Arthur had another good scene when he told the federal lawyer to get the hell out of his office after he accused Jack and Connie of leaking the uranium story to the press. One of the better season 17 episodes but Robinette didn’t make a lot of sense once again. 

Maybe something like this happened once he left the show in season 3 and that's why he changed so much 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by balmz

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:40 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I just saw Home Sweet, and while the episode itself is just average, the case was pretty predictable and unremarkable, but I’ll always love the scene of Arthur confronting the biased judge at the sushi restaurant and using his power to force her to recuse herself

I hated that the actress who played the judge, well, played this biased judge. Because I loved her executive producer character from Season Four's "Sweeps" where she testified about how what'shisface caused the death of that one prostitute, and bemoaned her death wasn't on live television. What he really needed was "someone to die on live tv" she said.

Then again, she also played another character when the characters went to DC. Some political intrigue with their version of Ken Starr, I think.

 

On 5/30/2023 at 9:40 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Watching Fear America now, Robinette’s final appearance, he was back to being pretty radical and accusing the NYPD and government of framing the Muslim guy who killed his cousin when he was informing about terrorist activity.

I absolutely HATED Pod!Paul here! I thought he was slightly better, redeemed in that episode where the nurse was sterilizing all these poor girls, but nooooo. Will the REAL PAUL ROBINETTE please stand up!!!

Edited June 3, 2023 by GHScorpiosRule

[Xeliou66]

I watched some more season 17 today -

I saw Melting Pot, this is just an average episode IMO, something about it just didn’t really work for me, it could’ve been more interesting than it was, the mystery was decent but it seemed like the episode was unsure of what direction it wanted to go in and they just threw stuff together instead. I thought it was OOC for both Jack and Van Buren to have a screaming match with each other at the DA’s office over the interrogation, both were too wound up and they had known each other for so long it seemed odd things would get so heated. Also it seemed off that Connie would buy that the duress defense that the Hispanic worker was asserting at first, that’s basically just saying that any criminal who’s facing financial hardships has a built in defense for any crime,it obviously turned out to be moot and not much was made of it but I thought it was an absurd defense.

Murder Book was next, this is an interesting episode, one of the ones inspired by OJ and his murder trial, it had some interesting twists and some good scenes with Jack and Arthur. While it was ultimately predictable that the ballplayer did it, it had some good twists and turns such as the bribed juror, overall one of the better season 17 episodes. Huge mistake by the defense lawyer to redirect Lang to say the book was fictional, it allowed Jack to call the rebuttal witness who knew Lang confessed to killing his wife. Had he just rested his case the defense might’ve won. 

Watching Good Faith now, this is also a good episode, but as I’ve said before Melnick really pisses me off, even more than normal in this one, her saying it was the “right principle” to try to get the religious zealot off because of his faith was epically stupid, no it’s not the right principle, religious beliefs aren’t an excuse for murder, as Jack said if they were just give a free pass to Osama Bin Laden. Her defense had no merit or high ground, it was just ludicrous, and Arthur was right in saying the judge should be removed from then bench for allowing it. I liked how Jack and Connie got to the bottom of the case, and the investigation was good as well. But Melnick angers me even more than normal in this episode.

[TakomaSnark]

I liked several (maybe even most) of the S17 plots/investigations. It really was dragged down by Detective Beauty Queen.