Little House Series and Pioneer Girl Readalong

[Stine]

One thing that struck me was in the "Going to Town" chapter. It says, "The sky was large overhead. Laura had never known that the sky was so big. There was so much empty space all around her that she felt small and frightened, and glad that Ma and Pa were there." In later books, Laura seems to echo Pa's hankering for wide-open spaces as they move further West, and she comes to love the endless expanse of the prairies, but here it frightens her. I just found it interesting when I thought of those later books. :)

 

Also, if I recall correctly, in real life the Ingalls family had lived in the Big Woods, moved out to the prairies and come back already by this point. This second period of time spent in the Big Woods is what Laura describes in this book, since she would have been too young to remember the first trip to the prairies and before that. The events described in Little House on the Prairie actually took place before Big Woods but they changed the order around in the books. Have I got that right? 

[Snow Apple]

Ma sure love to brag about how Pa can span her waist when they got married. Aunt Dorca and Aunt Ruby talked about it during the sugaring dance, and Ma said it again in the last book. I guess even Ma had one vanity. When life turned rough, I guess she takes comfort in remembering the good times of being a dainty girl and the  fun exciting boy who fell in love with each other. Before fun and exciting came to mean flighty.

 

Even learning what we've learned on these threads, I still find it cute that Ma still blushes whenever Pa compliments her.

[Sharpie66]

I do love Laura's response to Ma's mention of the hand-spanning in the last book: "Well, he can't do that now [span her waist], and he still seems to like you..."

[PrincessLuceval]

Don't be saucy, Sharpie66.

[ElderPrice]

It makes me so sad to read LHITBW again and read about how they had family and neighbors and lots of good food until Pa decided to drag them away from it all. In the summer everyone visited with each other all the time, and feeding company wasn't a big deal, just set another plate. LIW describes word coming via neighbor that so-and-so would be coming to visit, and there would be kids to play with all day, and family and friends for dinner, and help with haying and such. It sounds so nice. 

[sgittinger]

"Seeing as how you don't object, I've decided to sell this place and go West". And then Ma objects like 30 seconds later.

[Pickles Aplenty]

I have another pronunciation question: How do you pronounce Aunt Docia's name?  Is it DO-see-ah, or do-SEE-ah?  DO-sha?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Billina

[Sharpie66]

Her full name was Ladocia, so I'm guessing it was pronounced DO-she-a or DO-sha.

[BatmanBeatles]

I always wanted a butter mold that made a strawberry on top of the butter.

[Pickles Aplenty]

I couldn't find a strawberry mold, but I found these:

https://www.etsy.com/market/butter_mold

[BatmanBeatles]

Those are adorable! It almost makes me want to make my own butter. The butter soaked shredded carrot sounded good too.

[Winipo75]

Is it just me, or is the Ma in this book nicer than she is in later books? I mean, she's still strict, but she seems to be easier on Laura than she is later. For example, when Laura cries in the book, she doesn't say, "For shame!" She tells her everything will be alright. Like when Laura put too many pebbles in her pocket and it ripped off, she was pretty gentle with her. She showed her that that pocket could be easily fixed, so she didn't need to cry. Mind you, she did throw a lesson in there by telling her not to be so greedy next time. Reading it as an adult, I just found Ma different in this book. Just me? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she's happy. She lives close to friends and family, so there are people to help out and to visit, she has plenty to eat, they have a nice little house where the family is settled. I wonder if Ma become more judgmental later because she was unhappy being dragged all over the country by Pa.

[kikismom]

Is it just me, or is the Ma in this book nicer than she is in later books? I mean, she's still strict, but she seems to be easier on Laura than she is later. For example, when Laura cries in the book, she doesn't say, "For shame!" She tells her everything will be alright. Like when Laura put too many pebbles in her pocket and it ripped off, she was pretty gentle with her. She showed her that that pocket could be easily fixed, so she didn't need to cry. Mind you, she did throw a lesson in there by telling her not to be so greedy next time. Reading it as an adult, I just found Ma different in this book. Just me? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she's happy. She lives close to friends and family, so there are people to help out and to visit, she has plenty to eat, they have a nice little house where the family is settled. I wonder if Ma become more judgmental later because she was unhappy being dragged all over the country by Pa.

It isn't just you, and I agree with your reasons.

I even wonder if some of her hard attitude with Laura later on is because she identifies Laura with Pa? Encouraging him to go west?

[nodorothyparker]

No, she does seem less sharp and judgy here.  I'm sure part of that is that she's seen through the eyes of much younger children, who both don't tend to be as critical of their parents and generally don't warrant as much harsh correction from a parent.  But I also think you're right that life is easier for her in the Big Woods (easier in relatives terms to frontier life) because she's surrounded by family and extra help and familiarity.  By especially those later books, the family's been dragged over half a dozen states and been through enough hardship that it seems pretty obvious that she realizes that for all of Pa's boastfulness and promises about "living like kings" it just isn't ever going to happen.  And that if and when they ever do get to any place that's even a little comfortable and civilized he's going to start complaining about his itchy foot and wanting to drag them somewhere else again.  That hadn't happened over and over and over again yet in this book.

[Winipo75]

Great point, nodorothyparker, about Laura seeing her mother through younger eyes for this book. Things probably were easier in the Big Woods, but it's also likely that Laura's more distant memories might be idealized. Sort of like people always talk about "the good old days," when those days were not necessarily as good as they seem in retrospect. I think you might have a point, too, kikismom, that Ma may have seen quite a bit of her Pa in Laura.That my be why she seemed harsher with Laura than with Mary (Ma's kindred spirit). 

 

I had forgotten that my favourite parts of this particular book are Pa's stories. Pa beating a tree trunk with a club, thinking it was a bear, Grandpa and his brothers sliding down a hill on a Sunday with a pig on top of them, and Grandpa being chased by the panther. It was easy to see why Laura and Mary looked forward to cold winter nights when Pa told stories by the fire.

[kikismom]

It's Farmer Boy! My first observation is that 8-9 years old seems to have been considered the acceptable time for children to start school (?!)

[jammaker]

In reading it, I wondered is "40 below zero" just an expression?  Did they have a different temperature scale?   I remember from later books too they would say extreme temperatures but still be outside.

[Snow Apple]

I also wondered about the temperatures. In These Happy Golden Years, Pa said the thermometer froze at 40 below and is still steadily growing colder. The next morning, it was only 20 below so the cold snap was over. Say wha? 

[Pickles Aplenty]

Oh, Farmer Boy...I really do think this is the most boring book in the series, by far.  I like the character of Almanzo, but hearing about his oh-so-perfect childhood is too much for me.  There is very little conflict or struggle in this book, and it moves at a snail's pace.  The only chapters that hold my interest are when the teacher whips the ever-loving crap out of that kid, and when the Mother and Father Wilder leave town for a week and the kids screw around.  Other than that?  Meh.  Almanzo gets much more interesting when he moves to De Smet and starts courting Laura.

 

One thing I found interesting is when Almanzo asks Father Wilder if they should pay for a machine to thresh the wheat, and FW says that's the lazy man's way, when Pa Ingalls did just that in Big Woods.  Heh-heh.

[kikismom]

In reading it, I wondered is "40 below zero" just an expression?  Did they have a different temperature scale?   I remember from later books too they would say extreme temperatures but still be outside.

I know! I suspect it's a little more of the Measures On The Little House Scale. 20 degrees below is good weather to sleigh ride with no windshield, 4 lbs of beef for a family of 6 for the week is living "like Kings!" and a house is stoutly built when snow comes through the eaves. And the walls. And the roof.

[kikismom]

"...the teacher was a slim, pale young man. His name was Mr. Corse. He was gentle and patient."

"One thin cheek rested on his slim hand and he was reading a book. He looked up and said pleasantly, 'Good morning.'"

 

Almanzo's father says:

"Last year they hurt Jonas Lane so bad he died of it later."

"I know", Mr. Corse said. "Jonas Lane and I went to school together. He was my friend."

 

I don't want to make too much of it, but does anyone else think it's possible Mr. Corse was gay?

[smittykins]

It's Farmer Boy! My first observation is that 8-9 years old seems to have been considered the acceptable time for children to start school (?!)

Granted, it was a time before mandatory attendance laws, and as a farm family which needed all hands on deck at certain times of the year, school probably wasn't the priority with the Wilders as it was with the Ingallses.(My question being, what little boy wants to skip school to work on a farm?)

[kikismom]

Here's our cast of characters: http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/LIWnut/Maggie/LHOP%20Characters/Wilders.jpg  Almanzo is in the back row, Alice is the farthest lower right and so pretty. No wonder Almanzo called Laura Ingalls "Bess" because he didn't like the name Laura which reminded him of his oldest sister (In real life, not Eliza Jane). His sister Laura is in the back row middle with God-only-knows-what around her neck (maybe a leash- woof! )

 

Here's Almanzo and Alice--so cute! http://www.pioneerontheprairie.com/images/alice_almanzo.jpg

[Ceindreadh]

One thing I wondered was why Almanzo didn't get to go to the Academy with the other three. 

Or indeed, why all three of them only started the same year.  I'd have expected it to be an age thing with the kids all going when they hit the right age - although maybe it was just artistic licence so as to have Almanzo the only one helping out on the farm.

 

And one thing that I just can't get my head around is the distances.  It's only ten miles to the cousins farm but when the parents go to visit, it's a week long trip away from the kids.  And the Academy is only a few miles away from the farm, but again the kids are boarding there because (presumably) it's too far to travel to be a day pupil.  It's one thing that always gets me about these books. 

[jammaker]

 

It's Farmer Boy! My first observation is that 8-9 years old seems to have been considered the acceptable time for children to start school (?!)

 

There also seemed to only be a winter term from January until ... March maybe?   The rest of the year he was helping out on the farm. And he skipped a lot of school to help out on the farm.   But the other 3 kids went to the Academy, so who knows.

But oh the food.   So much food!

[sgittinger]

I always figured he was too young to go to the Academy...

[BatmanBeatles]

 

But oh the food.   So much food!

Even their school lunch was big. They had apple turnovers and sausage. Compare that to Laura and Mary's lunch of bread and butter.

[jammaker]

 

Even their school lunch was big. They had apple turnovers and sausage. Compare that to Laura and Mary's lunch of bread and butter.

 

It seems like they had some sort of pie or turnover with every meal.   Which really when you think about it shows what an abundance they had - the sugar, the spices, the flour to make the crust.  They had it in such large quantities that they could turn those apples and pumpkins into desserts every single day.

 

That's what's striking about this book - they just had so *much*.  They fed a family of 6, plus paid their workers in food, had 3 barns worth of livestock and still had some leftover food come spring.   And money to send their children to the academy.  And have the cobbler make their shoes.   And on and on and on.

 

The Ingalls had it pretty good in the Big Woods (compared to later), but nothing like that.  Not even close!

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

One part that I loved as a child, but now view as a little disquieting, is when Almanzo gives that skinflint old man his wallet back. The old man insults him by calling him a thief and gives him a nickel, and an enraged friend of FW threatens to beat the crap out of the codger unless he hands Almanzo $200 (the equivalent of $6,000 or more today). It was a cute story when I was a kid (mean old coot gets what was coming to him), but now it's a real "What the hell?" moment.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[BatmanBeatles]

Why does it trouble you?

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Why does it trouble you?

Because FW's friend is robbing the guy of a lot of money using the threat of violence, and it's presented as a good thing. In modern society, that will get you thrown in jail. The old guy was a world-class jerk, but that doesn't mean this level of vigilantism (towards someone who had not physically harmed or threatened Almanzo or anyone else) is justified.

[ElderPrice]

I live in the Adirondacks, and yes, it can get to 40 below. It usually doesn't get much below 5 or 10 below zero but 40 below is not unheard of. And actually it's easier to stay warm in deep cold than in cold that's in the 20s or 30s. At that temperature snow and ice will not melt into water and make your hands and feet wet. Dry means warm. Of course you have to bundle in layers but I find that I take layers off in deep cold more often than cold cold. However, if it's windy that will sap your warmth but for some reason when it's deep 40 below cold it seems to be very still too. Great snowshoeing weather!

 

Man, the title of this book could just as easily have been "The Wilders- We Sure Ain't The Ingalls'!" Father was an important man and everyone treated him respectfully. They rented the largest shed for their horses and buggy when they went to church. Mother and the girls certainly did not wear homespun to church, they wore quality clothing. And the food! I wonder if LIW's experience of not getting enough to eat for so long colored how she wrote, she seems obsessed with the descriptions of lavish meals.

[Pickles Aplenty]

 

Why does it trouble you?

Because FW's friend is robbing the guy of a lot of money using the threat of violence, and it's presented as a good thing. In modern society, that will get you thrown in jail. The old guy was a world-class jerk, but that doesn't mean this level of vigilantism (towards someone who had not physically harmed or threatened Almanzo or anyone else) is justified.

I agree, and I suspect that the old "skinflint" in this book is supposed to be Jewish.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the illustration is of a hook-nosed man, and since nearly everyone was anti-Semitic back then, in some capacity, it makes me wonder.

 

Also, what does Almanzo do that's so wonderful he deserves money all the time?  First Father Wilder gives him a half-dollar at the fair, and then this happens.  Meanwhile, Laura was jumping for joy over a penny and a tin cup.  Such a big difference.

[smittykins]

Going back to the weather, is a freeze in July even possible?  And they had to put *cold* water on the corn to save it?

[PrincessLuceval]

I find it a reach to assume Mr. Thompson is Jewish, based on his penurious nature and hook nose. The nose is Garth Williams' illustration/interpretation. And Thompson is a name of Scottish origin (also a group of people known for thrift.)

[ElderPrice]

Yes a freeze in July is possible. It's August and here in the Dacks we're having unusually cool weather that's going into the 30s at night in some places, even the 20s in the mountains. The Wilders lived just above the Adirondacks in the foothills so the weather described makes sense for the region.

 

I too never agreed with taking money by force from the Skinflint but how awesome was Almanzo's reply :"Keep your nickel, I can't change it." Burn! He also had the wit to tie a sheep upstairs in the hayloft, thus winning the shearing contest, and when FW gives him a half dollar he doesn't throw it away on candy but buys a baby pig that will grow and be an investment. He was a pretty clever kid.

[kikismom]

One part that I loved as a child, but now view as a little disquieting, is when Almanzo gives that skinflint old man his wallet back. The old man insults him by calling him a thief and gives him a nickel, and an enraged friend of FW threatens to beat the crap out of the codger unless he hands Almanzo $200 (the equivalent of $6,000 or more today). It was a cute story when I was a kid (mean old coot gets what was coming to him), but now it's a real "What the hell?" moment.

This is odd, but I was reminded of this during the John Wayne Gacy case! A teen boy was almost attacked while working at Gacy's house but managed to run away. The boy went to a pool hall later, very shook up, and a motorcycle gang member asked him what was wrong. When the boy told what happened, the biker took him over to Gacy's house, and demanded a large sum of money from Gacy as compensation for the boy.  Then the when Gacy wouldn't open the door, the biker testified that he took a baseball bat and smashed out the windshield of Gacy's Cadillac. Gacy threatened to call the cops, and the biker answered "You go ahead and do that and while you're at it tell them to bring an ambulance 'cause I'm gonna break every bone in your body before they get here."  In that case it was perfectly justified. Who knows what else the creepy guy in the Farmer Boy book was known for in Malone; it seemed like the cartwright already had a grudge.

 

 

Going back to the weather, is a freeze in july even possible?  And they had to put *cold* water on the corn to save it?

 Yes, they put cold water on the produce here where I live to save it in a freeze. The principle is that when something is coated with ice, it can get 32 degrees Fahrenheit but no lower, and most plants can stand to be just at freezing. However lower temperatures will destroy it, and as the thermometer drops (or as Elder Price pointed out wind will have the same effect of lower temps) any "bare" plants will die. Ice covered plants are "stopped" at 32 degrees.

[smittykins]

Thanks, ElderPrice and kikismom.

[Sharpie66]

One of the things that really stands out for me in Farmer Boy is that it is the only book set in the long-settled part of the country, not the frontier. The ready availability of everything--not just food, but roads that can take you into town pretty quickly, as well as allow for frequent visits from tinkers and cobblers who make house calls--is in stark contrast to Laura's experiences her entire life. The apple trees that grow those apples that they're always baking in Farmer Boy were not being planted or fruiting on the frontier until people had settled there for some time, and Laura's fascination with oranges and lemons (for lemonade) is well-documented in the Little House books.

 

I'm going to re-read Farmer Boy this week--can't wait!

[Mybrainhurts]

I actually loved this book although I had to run out and get a pumpkin pie for my wife and I while reading it because every time Almanzo talked about eating a delicious, quivering piece of pumpkin pie, our stomachs would growl.  My only problem was Almanzo's whining about working with colts every few pages.  After the fifth mention, it started getting a little weird and by the time we were halfway through the book, we would both start laughing each and every time colts were mentioned.

[smittykins]

Yeah, I wonder whether Father gave him Starlight because he felt Almanzo was finally ready, or just to shut him up about it(and prevent him from spending some of that $200).

[kikismom]

Notice that in the book much mention in made of Alice's hoopskirts. She was 8 years old.

In Laura's story, hoops come back in style after being out; Almanzo was ten years older than Laura, he was born before the Civil War, and she was born after. So maybe hoops weren't worn by children in the later fashion era. Laura doesn't get them till she puts up her hair and starts wearing a corset. About 14-15 years old.

Still, I think it was weird picturing Alice's hoops swirling as she pulled carrots and dug potatoes. And when Father woke them all suddenly on that freezing night to save the corn by running up and down the rows in the freezing dark fields...did she seriously have to put on hoops first? Almanzo is written pulling his trousers on half asleep to run downstairs, but the girls had to put their hoops on? Really?

[Brn2bwild]

I find all of the talk of "hoops" to be weird.  Fashions must have followed a different trajectory in the U.S. compared to Britain.  In Britain, "hoops," or crinoline (if I understand correctly), were ubiquitous throughout the 1850s and 1860s.  By the 1870s, crinoline had retreated to just a bustle in the back of the dress.  Then the bustle disappeared, then reappeared in a big way for a brief time in the 1880s, before disappearing altogether from dresses by the mid- to late-1880s and thereafter.  From the LHotP books, I get the impression "hoops" remained in fashion a lot longer than abroad.  

[nodorothyparker]

This is easily my least favorite of the Little House books, to the point that it's the only one I can't quote easily.  It's interesting for the slice of life historical aspects, but it's just not Little House, you know?  It didn't help that I always got the impression that Almanzo maybe wasn't very smart and didn't really care to be, between him looking for any and every reason not to go to school to him later not going to the Academy like his siblings.

[ElderPrice]

I disagree, just because he didn't like school doesn't mean he wasn't smart. I think that Almanzo was a bright and clever kid for the reasons I mentioned above.

[sgittinger]

Maybe he was too young for the Academy, or maybe they couldn't afford to send 4 kids....

[smittykins]

Or maybe they moved to Minnesota before Almanzo was old enough?

[jammaker]

Royal was 13 at the start of the book, so 14-15 before he went to Academy - maybe he had just decided by then (and made his choices known to his parents) that he didn't want to be a farmer, so they pursued more education for him.   Almanzo is what, 10? 11? when he tells them he wants to be a farmer.   Maybe his parents were just tailoring their approach to the future each child was suited for?   They made Almanzo go to school until he had enough education to be a good farmer, and made sure he was involved in learning how to do everything on the farm.

[kikismom]

I find all of the talk of "hoops" to be weird.  Fashions must have followed a different trajectory in the U.S. compared to Britain.  In Britain, "hoops," or crinoline (if I understand correctly), were ubiquitous throughout the 1850s and 1860s.  By the 1870s, crinoline had retreated to just a bustle in the back of the dress.  Then the bustle disappeared, then reappeared in a big way for a brief time in the 1880s, before disappearing altogether from dresses by the mid- to late-1880s and thereafter.  From the LHotP books, I get the impression "hoops" remained in fashion a lot longer than abroad.  

No, first of all, in America a crinoline is an underskirt made of very stiff material--usually net. It makes the skirt just stick out from the body. They are still sold, for wedding dresses, debutante ballgowns and those horrid little-girl-pageant dresses. They were also worn in the 1950's sometimes, with "poodle" skirts.

Hoops are made of wire and tape and are meant to create a specific shape (frankly, I think they looked like lampshades or toilet roll covers with doll heads.

It does look great in Gone With The Wind, though...because the girls wore off-the-shoulder type bodices.

Here is a picture that shows exactly what Laura had to wear under her dresses : http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/44/3a/4b

/443a4bcf801794e49316b568a85bfb03.jpg

 

These were big in the Civil War era, were out for almost 20 years while straighter skirts were in, then returned and yes a bustle was very big from the 1880s through the 1910s.

 

This is easily my least favorite of the Little House books, to the point that it's the only one I can't quote easily.  It's interesting for the slice of life historical aspects, but it's just not Little House, you know?  It didn't help that I always got the impression that Almanzo maybe wasn't very smart and didn't really care to be, between him looking for any and every reason not to go to school to him later not going to the Academy like his siblings.

 

 

I disagree, just because he didn't like school doesn't mean he wasn't smart. I think that Almanzo was a bright and clever kid for the reasons I mentioned above.

Almanzo wanted a nickel for lemonade; it was his father who gave a long-winded lesson about a fifty cent piece he could drink up and it was gone or he could buy a pig to raise. Father and Mother Wilder thought he was a genius just because he could figure out how many bushels at what price added up to what sum (at 9 years old).

Later writings mention that Almanzo was not real great at numbers, reading or writing or spelling. Think of the poor financial decisions he made, he couldn't figure out percentages and how much worse he got with the interest owed.

He suggested Laura use her school money to buy a colt; at the time he owed $500 on the new house plus other debts. By the time she sells the colt to buy sheep it doesn't help they are so far behind. They did not clear their debts by selling sheep, the wool was sold, and the sheep had cost $200. Laura invested half. The wool sold at 25 cents a pound, 10 pounds per sheep, means a total take of $2.25 per sheep. 100 sheep makes $225, split 50/50 with Peter (who owned half) means Laura got $112.50. One hundred dollars of that was just covering her investment. She had $12.50 left over. For a year of feeding and cleaning up after those sheep and shearing them and building a sheepfold and lambing season work? Hardly worth it.

The money did not pay for their trip to Mansfield and the purchase of the new farm; that was money raised by Laura working as a seamstress in town 12 hours a day six days a week and saving while Almanzo took whatever odd jobs he could. There is more about it in Rose/Laura's book On The Way Home which begins with how they lost the farm, almost all their stock except a horse team and an old carriage they converted into a tiny wagon for the trip.

Almanzo keeps thinking he can get out of debt by plowing more and working more land, he just keeps digging them deeper with machinery and mortgages on the farm, the house, even the animals. He keeps buying expensive things, a fancy new heater and a beautiful clock, a saddle pony for Laura and a new saddle from the catalogue with nickel trim! (I looked it up in the old catalogues online; those averaged $24 for a ladies saddle!) Almanzo admits in a letter to Rose that he spent $50 on a nickel trimmed harness!

They needed to clear off debts instead of buying more on borrowed money for a slim chance of having a big harvest.

Technically, Almanzo could add; but that doesn't mean he had money sense. He acts like a college freshman away from home with a credit card.

Edited August 19, 2014 by kikismom

[nodorothyparker]

Yeah, my impression from this book that maybe he wasn't very smart was only solidified by the poor financial decisions described in First Four Years and On the Way Home.  That doesn't mean he wasn't a good horseman or didn't have aptitude for other things, but he definitely doesn't come across as any kind of scholar.  It's interesting to me in light of both his older sister and Laura being teachers and how we're always told what an amazing scholar Laura was.  Of course, school was mostly a lot of rote memorization and parroting it back at the time, so who knows?

Edited August 19, 2014 by nodorothyparker