Little House Series and Pioneer Girl Readalong

[smittykins]

I read she was the organist at church.

[Stargazer3]

I read that Mary did not attend the School for the Blind one year. It wasn't clear if she was ill or if the family just couldn't afford her upkeep. It was after Laura was married and when you think about it she gave the money from sewing and her school teaching to buy the organ and help support Mary. I don't know if Carrie helped out, but I wonder if Laura's leaving wasn't a financial burden on the family. It always annoyed me that Pa was so willing to practically grab money out of Laura's hand.

[sgittinger]

Technically, in real life, the family didn't pay for Mary's College education, the state did. Although, it seems like it was kind of a waste of Laura's money to send Mary to College and then have her sit in a chair for the rest of her life.

[ElderPrice]

Can anyone explain the "balls of fire" that came down the chimney during the blizzard where Pa was stuck under the creek bank? They didn't burn anything and seemed to be magnetized (they followed Ma's steel knitting needles) then disappeared. Thunder and lightning are often part of a blizzard, was it St Elmo's Fire?

Edited September 5, 2014 by ElderPrice

[camom]

My understanding is that the state paid Mary's tuition at the blind school, but the family paid for her room and board.  

 

The grasshoppers really creep me out.  I can't even imagine that many of them.  Do grasshoppers really behave that way?  I don't think the Ingalls family would have survived without the help of the Nelsons when they were at Plum Creek.  Even having to walk far to work, Pa was probably better off than the rest of the family.  

[Sharpie66]

I think the balls of fire were probably similar to St. Elmo's Fire, as you've speculated. I've heard of static electricity producing weird effects in a blizzard due to the dryness of the air and the wind.

[Athena]

The grasshoppers really creep me out.  I can't even imagine that many of them.  Do grasshoppers really behave that way?  I don't think the Ingalls family would have survived without the help of the Nelsons when they were at Plum Creek.  Even having to walk far to work, Pa was probably better off than the rest of the family.  

 

The ones in the book are the Rocky Mountain Locusts. The wikipedia article discusses it and the Ingalls really had bad luck. If they had moved there a couple of years later, it wouldn't have been an issue at all. 

[BatmanBeatles]

It was so gross when they crawled all over Carrie.

[Mybrainhurts]

I still love the Garth Williams illustration when Nellie is pulling Laura's hair.  Laura's elongated face cracks me up.

 

What I never understood is why Pa thought that a farmer could make enough money to live like a king and planned his life accordingly.  As a farmer, you're always dependent on the weather, supply and demand for your crops, pests and a million other things.  It's not a career that one thinks of when hoping for instant wealth like Pa always did.  

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

The ones in the book are the Rocky Mountain Locusts. The wikipedia article discusses it and the Ingalls really had bad luck. If they had moved there a couple of years later, it wouldn't have been an issue at all.

We actually had a locust (or grasshopper, or whatever) infestation one evening in Phoenix the first summer I was here (in 2007). I walked a block and 1/2 from the office where I worked to the store to grab some lunch in the early evening and there were locusts EVERYWHERE. The weirdest thing was the birds. Normally birds shy away from human contact but on that night, I walked inches aways from a couple of birds who didn't even notice me: they were too busy eating locust after locust after locust.

What I never understood is why Pa thought that a farmer could make enough money to live like a king and planned his life accordingly.  As a farmer, you're always dependent on the weather, supply and demand for your crops, pests and a million other things.  It's not a career that one thinks of when hoping for instant wealth like Pa always did.

"Farm Aid" and the government's policy of endless handouts for farmers were both still a century off. Edited September 5, 2014 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[Winipo75]

Agreed, the grasshoppers are disgusting and creepy! Laura paints such a vivid picture, that you can practically feel them crawling on our own skin. Ew! The description o the bare, dead prairie is depressing, too. The stifling head just made everything that much worse. No wonder the kids danced for joy when it finally rained and cooled the air!

[smittykins]

I always thought it interesting that Ma was insistent on the girls going to school, when, as a former teacher, she was more that capable of teaching them herself(and did when the circumstances demanded it; IIRC they only attended one term pre-grasshoppers).  Also, at first I was surprised that they hadn't gone to church in Wisconsin when they were only about seven miles from town, and the Wilders lived five miles outside Malone and attended every Sunday.  Then it dawned on me that while the Wilders had multiple work and driving horses, the Ingallses only had two at any one time, and it was important to give them a day of rest.

Edited September 6, 2014 by smittykins

[juneday]

I always thought it interesting that Ma was insistent on the girls going to school, when, as a former teacher, she was more that capable of teaching them herself(and did when the circumstances demanded it; IIRC they only attended one term pre-grasshoppers).  Also, at first I was surprised that they hadn't gone to church in Wisconsin when they were only about seven miles from town, and the Wilders lived five miles outside Malone and attended every Sunday.  Then it dawned on me that while the Wilders had multiple work and driving horses, the Ingallses only had two at any one time, and it was important to give them a day of rest.

Maybe she wanted them to be around other children besides their own siblings? 

[Snow Apple]

A small thing, but what I found funny is Laura and Mary had to share a cup until their Christmas presents in the previous book, but there were plenty of tin cups for the country party.

 

It was nice to see the TV show use the scene where the girls use their Christmas penny to buy a slate pencil.

 

I'm sure real life was rough, but the book at least made it seem they had enough of food. Plums, fish, wild game, vanity cakes, and milk. And of course, Laura loved picking plums and eating the fallen ones while Mary was being her usual prissy self regarding the outdoor activity.

[camom]

I wondered about all the cups for the country party, too.  And they had plenty of food, too.

 

Reading the books as an adult is a totally different experience than reading them as a child.  They seemed magical then.  Now I am amazed at the decisions Charles made.  I know that in those days women had no power really -- the husbands owned the property and were the heads of the households.  But I can't help  think that if Caroline had had more say, their lives would have been quite different, and probably better.

 

 

[Snow Apple]

This is the week for By the Shores of Silver Lake. I'm afraid this is the book I liked least, but I did like the description of the surveyor's house with all the food and the Christmas chapters with the Boasts. I also liked the part where Mrs. Boast gave Laura all those newspapers with stories for the family to enjoy (and of course Mary is being a wet blanket, er, I mean virtuous by telling them to read only one chapter a day even though Mrs. Boast has more papers to take when the first batch is done).

 

And this is the book with the infamous scene where Ma gave away Laura's only cherished toy. Poor Laura and Charlotte.

[juneday]

Also BTSOSL is where Grace went wandering off and she was on the slough and Laura told someone (I think it was Carrie maybe) to shut up. I don't know why, but that stuck with me as a kid. 

[Athena]

By the Shores of Silver Lake: A lot happened and there is a two year gap between the last book and this one. There was a lot of singing in this book. A bit too much for me.

 

I really enjoyed Laura's adventures in the wild and Laura is so relateable as a young girl. Opposed to Mary. She was Ok in the beginning ("you create pictures with your words, Laura") then got annoying: "I really don't know, Laura, why you'd rather those rough men... I've finished another quilt patch while you've been idling." Carrie seems to be afraid of everything.

 

I do feel sorry for Laura. She is growing up and has to be the eldest all of a sudden. Pa tells Laura that Ma wants one of the girls to teach and it has to be her. Sigh.

 

Caroline's racism returns again in this book:

 

"I always heard you can't trust a half-breed," Ma said. Ma did not like Indians; she did not like even half-Indians.

 

I liked the side characters as usual: Big Jerry and the Boasts: "Mr Boast's laugh tickles," Carrie said.

 

Laura's writing continues to be lovely in parts. I had forgotten how excellent a writer she is (or Rose, it's hard to tell). It gives me more mixed feelings about the books. Sigh.

 

 

Reading the books as an adult is a totally different experience than reading them as a child.  They seemed magical then.  Now I am amazed at the decisions Charles made.  I know that in those days women had no power really -- the husbands owned the property and were the heads of the households.  But I can't help  think that if Caroline had had more say, their lives would have been quite different, and probably better.

 

Yeah, this struck in a lot in this book too. With every book, I can feel Caroline being more and more annoyed with these decisions but she can't do anything about it really.

 

In a passage of the book, they talk about how they wouldn't have been scalped back in Indian Territory except for Indian one and Caroline argues back. It doesn't make sense though; it's just prejudice. I mean they were in Indian territory. What did they expect? Her issue was with them moving to Indian territory and that was Pa's decision.

[PrincessLuceval]

 

And this is the book with the infamous scene where Ma gave away Laura's only cherished toy. Poor Laura and Charlotte.

 

No, it was in On The Banks Of Plum Creek, which we just finished.

 

I remember not liking this book as a kid, just because the beginning was so depressing. However, when they're heading out on the train, and then meet up with Lena and the gang, I really liked it. And I agree, the Christmas chapter and the friendship with the Boasts are really cozy and enjoyable to read.

[Snow Apple]

No, it was in On The Banks Of Plum Creek, which we just finished.

 

 

 

D'oh!

 

I've been reading this thread and all the outrage about that scene too. I need sleep.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Snow Apple

[jammaker]

The beginning is so sad, but it's the first move that makes sense (in the way they're presented in the books at least).  She says Pa has made enough of a crop to stay out of debt up until the doctor's bills, so he is trying and sticking it out, but then this offer to pay off the bills and make money besides comes up.   And they're all just so sad, but here's this offer to go be with family (even if it's only a short time) and have a fresh start.    Realistically they may have been better to have Charles go out to the job and send the money back to pay off the bills and keep the farm, but emotionally with how sad they are, how they can barely care about their clothes and upkeep, it feels like not a crazy choice to move, too.

 

Otherwise, this book is very meh for me.  It just seems like nothing really happens, almost just marking time and acknowledging the move before getting into the real "Laura grows up" portion of the series.

 

I do like the Boasts, even though them coming out when they did was a little crazy - at least they weren't being crazy while dragging around small (and now blind!) children.

[ElderPrice]

I have to put the book in the freezer when Jack dies (tm Joey Tribbiani) even though I realize that IRL they gave him away long ago.

[BatmanBeatles]

Also BTSOSL is where Grace went wandering off and she was on the slough and Laura told someone (I think it was Carrie maybe) to shut up. I don't know why, but that stuck with me as a kid. 

It made Laura seem more human to me. I don't know why, but when I was a kid Mary losing her long hair traumatized me.

[moonb]

Yeah, BTSOSL is a placeholder upon rereading - I used to think of it as the start of the Dakota books, but it's really a lot about Laura becoming adult, maybe a little before her time. Mary goes blind and Laura has to be her eyes, Laura has to teach now. Jack dies, Laura and Lena go horseback riding but Laura has to be careful to be ladylike....and so on. Not that there aren't flashes of little girl Laura - the chapter with the sliding on Silver Lake, for one - but there's this subtext about Laura being Pa's little girl (brown hair, his favorite) versus Ma's young lady (she can't play as much, she has real duties and responsibilities)...and maybe she can expect a life like Ma's?

[stopeslite]

This was the first of the books that, for me, really made me realize (when I was a kid reading them for the first time) how fast they really had to grow up. It was the chapter where  the washerwoman's daughter just got married, and she was the same age as the girls, and it was what, 13? Holy crow. Talk about sobering. 

[Pickles Aplenty]

Pa really annoys me in this one, but I'm not sure exactly why.  And I agree there is too much singing.  I just skip the songs, because I don't know how they're supposed to sound half the time, anyway.

[Libby96]

I used to kind of feel that there were too many songs too. Oh, boy! Another song! When I read them aloud to my girls, I would sing the songs to them if I knew them. If I didn't, I'd just sing the words to some tune or another. Yes, I am a geek.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Libby96

[Pickles Aplenty]

My favorite parts of the book are when Ma and the girls ride on a train for the first time, and when Laura is hanging out with Lena.  I really didn't care for the Boast chapters; I thought they were boring.  In fact, I think most of this book is boring.  I actually like the darker tone it starts out with, because with Mary's blindness and the family's financial situation I think it's necessary, but my interest wanes after Lena moves west.  I would totally read a series about her, though I think it would be very different from the LH series.  It would probably be more like "Pioneer Girl", with even more hard-knocks thrown in.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Billina

[camom]

I wonder how much of Laura's story telling ability came about because she had to describe things to Mary.  In the books she is able to really paint a picture with words, which is what she did for Mary.  

 

I love the part when Laura and Lena take off to get the laundry.  They're just two young girls spreading their wings and enjoying a little freedom (which Lena obviously had more of than Laura).

[BatmanBeatles]

 

I love the part when Laura and Lena take off to get the laundry.  They're just two young girls spreading their wings and enjoying a little freedom (which Lena obviously had more of than Laura).

Then Ma squashed that friendship in her gentle way.

[Athena]

Then Ma squashed that friendship in her gentle way.

 

Yeah, Ma throws some shade at Docia along the way by more or less saying Docia hasn't minded Lena as she should. Oh, Ma. 

[BatmanBeatles]

If Ma had her way, all young ladies would sit quietly in their chairs making quilt blocks.

[Snow Apple]

Oh Ma. Remember when she "encouraged" Laura to play teacher whether the she like it or not. And when neighbor kids came to play with Carrie, forced them to take lessons without consulting their parents. And then when the neighbor kids fail to show up one day, wonder about their mother.

[Sharpie66]

I've always like Silver Lake. One of my favorite things about the DeSmet books is the way it depicts the fads that people experience, and IIRC this is the first book that really shows that: the what-not shelves, in particular. (That's why I love Little Town so much--a lot of it is about how Laura tries to keep up with what's popular in school.)

 

I'm a big fan of Lena (I posted in the other LIttle House thread about how the elderly Lena was reading OtSoSL when she realized that she was the Lena in the book, and that the Laura writing the books was actually her cousin--something that had never occurred to her before reading about herself!), and the scene where they both get the slap of awareness when hearing about the washerwoman's daughter getting married is the first real taste of real grown-up life for both of them.

 

IIRC, Laura tells Carrie to shut up when she's trying to get the two of them away from the big-ass wolf that she sees following them. That scene really freaks me out every time I read it!

[BatmanBeatles]

Oh Ma. Remember when she "encouraged" Laura to play teacher whether the she like it or not. And when neighbor kids came to play with Carrie, forced them to take lessons without consulting their parents. And then when the neighbor kids fail to show up one day, wonder about their mother.

I can imagine Carrie thinking, "Thanks a lot Ma. Now no one wants to be my friend."

[ElderPrice]

I know Mary was blind but the crap that the other girls had to put up with was silly. They couldn't walk behind the wagon and stretch their legs because MARY WAS BLIND. They had to sit on the ends of the bench in the wagon and get jolted to death because MARY WAS BLIND. This book, in my opinion, is where Mary's bitchy nature really starts to show, with sneering when Laura watched the men build the railroad and always correcting her when she was describing a sunset or something. This is when I really start wanting to slap her myself.

[Snow Apple]

I always laugh at the part when Rev. Alden said "Mary is a rare soul and a lesson to all of us." 

 

Yeah, but what kind of lessons did we all learn from the ungrateful Miss Priss?

[smittykins]

He also quoted the Bible verse "Those whom He loveth, He chasteneth;" I've always wondered if the Ingallses ever thought that Mary was being punished for some unconfessed sin.  I know it was a fairly common belief among religious people of the time.

[moonb]

Pa and Ma's seeming favoritism of Mary makes me wonder if Ma had miscarriages or other pregnancy complications before Mary was born, and therefore she was extra cherished - maybe her blindness further contributed to that? Of course, there's only conjecture as to why two healthy young 20-somethings who married in 1860 didn't have a child come along until almost 5 years later, but Mary's being the first healthy baby after a long wait might have contributed to her "golden child" status. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by moonb

[BatmanBeatles]

It's a possibility.

 

I've always been curious about the coat Ma made for Grace. How does one make a coat from the skin of a swan?

[Snow Apple]

Interesting theory and I wouldn't be surprised. When Laura came along, they already had a girl (prettily golden and proper and perfect) so there's nothing new about that. Carrie was frail so she gets special concern. Grace was the baby of the family and born after the death of their son so she got spoiled a bit (Even Mary cuddles her and says she's prettier than any doll. Indulgence and Vanity!) Laura must have felt like the "middle" child and worked hard just to stand out.

[PrincessLuceval]

Laura Ingalls: Little Jan Brady On The Prairie.

 

The coat was actually made over from an old coat of Ma's - the collar and cuffs were the swansdown. And I guess after pulling off the feathers, the down was left intact, and then the skin of the swan was tanned? cured? however the skin would have been. It sounded fragile, until it was sewn onto something.

 

 

I always laugh at the part when Rev. Alden said "Mary is a rare soul and a lesson to all of us."

"She has never once repined." Yeah, except to be extra prissy and picky to Laura.

[Pickles Aplenty]

 

Oh Ma. Remember when she "encouraged" Laura to play teacher whether the she like it or not. And when neighbor kids came to play with Carrie, forced them to take lessons without consulting their parents. And then when the neighbor kids fail to show up one day, wonder about their mother.

Oh, man, that part made my blood boil.  Ma really needed to take a goddamn chill pill.

[kikismom]

I think the parents thought they were being chastened, not Mary? Like Job--his family and livestock and crops were destroyed to test his faith which seems screwy to me but what do I know?

I do think Mary knew they had a guilt complex over it, and she seems to know she could push as many buttons as she wanted without recriminations.

I also think she repeatedly announces exactly how much money she has to the penny not to brag as much as to remind her father that just because she was blind and couldn't read the bills that he better not substitute a one dollar bill for a twenty. I bet Charles was tempted more than once.

He also quoted the Bible verse "Those whom He loveth, He chasteneth;" I've always wondered if the Ingallses ever thought that Mary was being punished for some unconfessed sin.  I know it was a fairly common belief among religious people of the time.

Edited September 9, 2014 by kikismom

[Snow Apple]

 

 

I also think she repeatedly announces exactly how much money she has to the penny not to brag as much as to remind her father that just because she was blind and couldn't read the bills that he better not substitute a one dollar bill for a twenty. I bet Charles was tempted more than once.

 

Ohhhhh, yeah. She repeats the amount so much that it's obnoxious but perhaps there's a reason for it. Mary is suppose to a smart one and thirsts for knowledge. And after she went blind, she had all the time in the world to sit in that chair and listen to the world around her. It's really surprising what adults will say in front of us quiet ones. She's got her Pa all figured out.

 

eta: Pa made a big deal about giving Mr. Edward's $20 to Mary, once again looking like the big shot but knowing money is no good in the blizzard. But now I'm wondering if he figured he'd get the money back once cash is king again. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by Snow Apple

[camom]

When everyone except the Ingalls were leaving Silver Lake before winter -- it sounded like Lena's family stole stuff from the store.  The story was something like "they had to leave early in the morning because they were getting away with three wagon loads from the store."  Pa justified it to Ma, but it sounded to me like they were stealing.  And I can't imagine facing a winter with the nearest neighbor being 40 miles away.  Did their earlier illness teach them nothing?

[Sharpie66]

Oh, Docia and Hiram were definitely stealing the company's stuff. They justified it because they said that the company shafted them on pay and that they were just reimbursing themselves from what they were owed, but I'm sure the company had a completely different take on it.

[camom]

And Charles apparently went along with it.  The more I read, the less I like him.

[Sharpie66]

I think that helping oneself to the company's stores in lieu of what you think you were actually owed is probably not an uncommon thing to do in a situation where there were no employee protections in place, thus no lawsuits against TPTB, the Gilded Age was just kicking in and people were getting frustrated about the income inequality, which was exacerbated by the geographic distances between the higher-ups and the grunts, and the fact that they were isolated out there on the prairie and could just disappear west since there was really no way to track anyone without a dedicated posse to follow you. I'm willing to cut both Hiram and Charles a break there since they were products of their environment and of their times.

 

Also, TPTB had insurance for all of their stuff, so if some of it did walk off, they got their money back.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Sharpie66

[Ceindreadh]

Not to mention that (IIRC) Charles said that company told him to let (Hiram) take what he wanted and put it on his account. 

While he may have known damn well that Hiram and Docia weren't going to settle up, that wasn't really his problem.