S01.E10: 1984

[Yolapukka]

Gordon wasn't in the lecture, it was just Cameron who saw Joe speak to her class at Austin Tech. Gordon would have been at work in Dallas. Joe first met them in two different cities. The bus she rode before she showed up at work was a Greyhound, rather than a city bus. When Gordon needed to find Cameron in the 214's episode, he mentioned to Donna that she'd gone back to Austin. Luckily for him, when he'd accompanied Joe to recruit her, he'd been to the bar/arcade where she usually hung out and she was there when he looked.

Edited August 11, 2014 by yuggapukka

[ganesh]

It was in the first episode iirc. Joe took Gordon to meet Cameron and he pitched the idea. She demanded 40K in salary and Gordon said, "my wife only makes 15."

[dubbel zout]

I thought both Cameron and Gordon were in that lecture. Joe was asking the group who could do certain tasks, and Gordon and Cameron were the only ones who held up their hands for every question. Or was that not Gordon?

[dargosmydaddy]

 

Or was that not Gordon?

It wasn't.

[dubbel zout]

That explains a lot! Thanks, dargosmydaddy.

[annlaw78]

 

Is "Austin Tech" the name of an actual school in Austin?

Not that I know of, unless it's a trade school, but I think they were trying to give off more of a "tech" school in the sense of MIT.  The MIT-equivalent in Texas would be Rice, in Houston. 

[Yolapukka]

It wasn't Gordon, just some random student who dressed as badly as Gordon. I can't remember if he also had a beard. I guess we are referring to the guy who gave some airy-fairy answer of stuff we still don't do, to Joe's final question about practical predictions for computer use in the next ten years. Which was a contrast to Cameron who extrapolated from known developments that networking would become important and widely available. The entity called the internet was two years away from being named as such, although there were already networks that existed and the first direct access ISP (The World) would come into being in 6 years time.

Edited August 12, 2014 by yuggapukka

[ganesh]

I thought Austin Tech was a community college. I don't think it was a 4 year university because I can't see some tenure track/tenured professor letting Joe in as a guest speaker.

[Yolapukka]

I think HACF does a nice job of referencing changes in time and place through background details and dialogue. I think they'd do much better with that if they used an easy to notice visual or audible device, maybe not so obvious as a title card, but some sort of cue that would let us know to look out for those transitions. It can change the interpretation of a scene or a characters actions if that information is missing. How many of us realized while we were watching that the finale starts around Christmas and ends several months later in the spring? If I thought it all took place in a few short weeks or even days,  it would alter how I viewed the events.

Edited August 12, 2014 by yuggapukka

[Kel Varnsen]

 It can change the interpretation of a scene or a characters actions if that information is missing. How many of us realized while we watching that the finale starts around Christmas and ends several months later in the spring? If I thought it all took place in a few short weeks or even days,  it would alter how I viewed the events.

Well Comdex happened before Christmas, then when Gordon got home he was sleeping on the couch next to the christmas tree. The famous apple commercial was a post super-bowl commercial which means it happened in January.

[Yolapukka]

 

Well Comdex happened before Christmas, then when Gordon got home he was sleeping on the couch next to the christmas tree. The famous apple commercial was a post super-bowl commercial which means it happened in January.

Then the launch for the Giant went ahead at the end of February(IIRC). The Clarks were carjacked and Donna wound up in a cast and a sling. I've been told that the shortest likely time for her to be out of the sling is three weeks and I think she was out of the cast (not sure.....?) at the end which would make it even longer. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by yuggapukka

[ketose]

I think HACF does a nice job of referencing changes in time and place through background details and dialogue. I think they'd do much better with that if they used an easy to notice visual or audible device, maybe not so obvious as a title card, but some sort of cue that would let us know to look out for those transitions. It can change the interpretation of a scene or a characters actions if that information is missing. How many of us realized while we were watching that the finale starts around Christmas and ends several months later in the spring? If I thought it all took place in a few short weeks or even days,  it would alter how I viewed the events.

I suggest on-screen type in the same font as Wargames.

[marys1000]

I keep coming here hoping to see news of S2.  I loved the show.  Typically S1 is my favorite and downhill from there but that doesn't mean i'm ready for this to be over! 

[Yolapukka]

 

Typically S1 is my favourite and downhill from there but that doesn't mean i'm ready for this to be over!

 

 

I've had that issue with too many shows. I would get drawn in by an entertaining first season that turned out to be the high point of the series. Revenge, Lost and Heroes spring to mind. It stopped me from even bothering with first seasons because of the disappointment that or a cancellation would bring. I decided I was just denying myself  something I would have enjoyed because of the possibility of a let-down later on. Unlike many shows however, watching this one made me feel like the creators had strong ideas for their second season and they were building towards it as well as creating a first season that closed it's own main narrative threads. The finale had no true cliffhangers but did leave plenty for viewers to wonder about. I think a flaw of this show related to how much of the first few episodes were spent on setting things up for the rest of the series, though once the pace picked up and those seeds grew into something that bore fruit, it was an absolute delight.

Edited August 16, 2014 by yuggapukka

[Jamoche]

Well Comdex happened before Christmas, then when Gordon got home he was sleeping on the couch next to the christmas tree. The famous apple commercial was a post super-bowl commercial which means it happened in January.

Not post - during the game, on January 22, 1984, and that was its only national airing. It sparked the trend of having impressive big budget Super Bowl ads.

[Slovenly Muse]

I'm confused. Is Cameron a Mary Sue, or a spoiled, bratty child? I see this term being thrown around a lot, but I just don't get it at all! IMO, Donna is WAY closer to being a Mary Sue than Cameron. She's got the looks, the brains, a great personality, is under-appreciated in nearly every way (but is mostly gracious about it), and is almost magically able to solve everyone's problems. (And I still wouldn't call her a Mary Sue, because Donna legitimately rocks!) Cameron is way too flawed and naive to qualify as a Mary Sue. I know that the concept of her character is a cliche, but underneath that cliche she has got some great characterization happening, and is changing and developing in both good ways and bad.

 

I just caught up on this show, and while it is no Mad Men, I have to say I liked it overall! The finale was, I thought, a really nice stepping stone for the next season. After the drive to build something unique and special that would revolutionize personal computing, the team was forced to strip out the part that actually made it unique and special in order to make money. They killed Cameron's dream to make a profit, which was the right thing to do, but it still hurt. This episode was all about the fallout. Gordon realizing that by cutting out Cameron's contribution, he was able to make the machine that he always wanted to: superior in the area of hardware, but nothing else, and with nowhere to go from there. No vision for the future.

 

Joe realized that by "taking the soul out of the giant" (or however Cameron put it), the product he had made reflected who he was: An empty, soulless machine that would make a few dollars and be forgotten almost immediately when something truly revolutionary came to outshine it. (And I hated him burning the computers as well, but I understand why he did it, and I think it hearkened back to his comment about how 1% of the computers having glitches would not register as a blip on their profits. Same with the contents of that truck, as compared to what was on order. It was a symbolic gesture that wouldn't have an impact on the company overall.) He knew he had an opportunity for greatness, and he chose not to take it. And clearly he is struggling for the first time in a long while with the arrival of some genuine human feelings. That, I will tune in next season to see played out! I love Lee Pace, and I think he's done great things with Joe, even when the writing didn't always give him much to work with.

 

Cameron echoed Bosworth's words about how scary the future can be, now that she knows how, when push comes to shove, even the people closest to you will let that fear get the better of them and stomp on your dreams in favour of playing it safe. When Joe came to see her, to offer to build something together with her... well, that's exactly what they just did. That's what the Giant was supposed to be, but he turned on her and he cut out her unique contribution. She was exactly right to say what she did and to refuse to partner with him again. Because she is the future, and she's the one who truly has vision. Does she have the skills to see that vision become a reality? Maybe, maybe not. With Donna on her side, though, she has a real shot.

 

And Donna. Probably left TI because she hated it there. Her boss manipulated her and stole her and Gordon's work, and she previously referred to it as a "dead-end job." She was never appreciated there, and with their money situation looking up, she no longer had to put up with that job. Maybe the idea was for her to be a stay-at-home mom, or maybe it was just to give her the freedom to do what she wanted, rather than what she thought she had to. In any case, although she wanted to work with her husband, when all was said and done, she rejected the idea of helping Gordon sell something safe and generic in favour of following her true passion, and working with Cameron to innovate and create something extraordinary.

 

All in all, I thought it was a strong finale that sets up the tensions nicely for the next season. Having sold their dreams short, made what they originally set out to make, turned a profit in the process, and ended up deeply unsatisfied, now they can begin the drive to put the soul back in to themselves and their project. I will definitely be back to see where it all goes!

[ketose]

The big feature of a Mary Sue is how much the people on the show worship them. Joe fell for her hard, Bos went to jail for her and even Gordon and Donna thought she was the most brilliant programmer ever. The code monkeys even followed her out of Cardiff. It's still possible for people who watch a show to hate a Mary Sue character. Look at Wesley Crusher on Star Trek The Next Generation.

[green]

I have no idea who Mary Sue is but I always liked Wesley Crusher.  Not everyone thinks the same and I like as near perfect a character as you can make them.  It's the hardest to act and the best to see when well done.  On the other hand, I'm bored to tears by endless average gray area characters.  They just coast through life.  And forget the fad lately for bad boy leads.  Can't stand them.

Edited September 9, 2014 by green

[Yolapukka]

Bos went to jail for himself. The embezzlement scheme took place offscreen, but what little we saw indicated that it was his idea. She was his employee, acting at his behest and he had a mentoring relationship with her in what was her first  career-buildng job. It would have been well below the level of despicable if he'd thrown her under the bus once the fiddle was found out. Hiding her involvement may even have worked in his favor since it sheilded him from charges that would have related to their conspiracy.

 

Joe who did indeed  falll hard for her still qualifies his feelings by making their relationship about his need to work with her, well after any sensible person would have realized their working life is a wasteland best avoided for the time being and prioritized repairing their emotional connection. He's still trying to manipulate her to suit his interests, even though that has consistently been the worst way to handle her. Moreover Joe trying to handle her doesn't really square with adoration.

 

I just don't see the adoration from others. Gordon may appreciate her programming but he expresses dislike and strong disapproval of her much of the time and has actively undermined her at work. Donna has more of an affinity for Cameron but does not bite her tongue when Cameron annoys or angers her. The code monkeys followed her because they felt an ill-wind blowing their way due to Joe's erratic behavior and Gordon's limited respect for their department. Cameron presented them with a prospect that's at the frontier of the possible at a time in their lives where risk was an entry in the pro not the con column and conventionality looked unsafe.. They could easily turn on her like rabid dogs if they go too long without payoff and sleep. 

 

To me the key to a Mary-Sue is the unikely depth and breadth of their gifts and an affinity for easy perfection. Cameron is good at her work and sniffing out bullshit, everything else is on a learning curve, including basic civility.   I think we've heard too much effusive praise for her from the lips of others but she's flawed, not in small quirky ways, but in terms of actual failings. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by yuggapukka

[ketose]

"Your code is like music." That's pretty adoring.

 

There are Mary Sue elements, but she's not necessarily a projection of the writers of the show. I liked Wesley Crusher until the end of TNG when he became kind of erratic. I even liked Fred Burkle from Angel and everyone turned on her as a Mary Sue. The problem with Cameron may have been that since this is a Joe McMillan centered show, his obsession with Cameron took up a lot of story time.

[Slovenly Muse]

Yeah, this is what drives me nuts about conversations regarding who does or does not qualify as a "Mary Sue." Because the term has evolved so much that people seem to be arguing about it using different definitions. As a fandom geek, I subscribe to the original definition. The term "Mary Sue" came out of fanfiction, and referred to characters that fanfic authors had inserted into the story who were clearly ideal projections of who the authors wished they could be. Mary Sue, in Star Trek TOS fanfic for example, would be the mysterious beautiful new officer who was could out-logic Spock, knew more than the science officers, could fix problems the engineers couldn't, and was generally amazing at everything in every way. Everyone loved her and desired her, and she had no flaws at all, except for maybe one that wasn't a real flaw, but a habit or behaviour that was more endearing than off-putting, and in the end she would save the day when everyone else had failed. Because she's just that special. The story was all about her, and the other characters only really seemed to be there in order to make her look good. It was authorial wish-fulfillment.

 

Nowadays, I see it used to describe characters who are have unrealistic levels of skill or knowledge in their field, or characters who the other characters like too much to be realistic, characters the writers constantly use as "deus ex machina" to swoop in and solve all the problems, or even just characters the viewers don't like, and whose presence they resent in the show or story. But not all badly written or conceived characters are Mary Sues.

 

Cameron does not fit the definition.The other characters see her brilliance and respect it, but they're not all in love with her. Cameron (and the other characters) discovering and embracing her brilliance does not make her a Mary Sue, it makes her a fully-realized character who is capable of greatness despite crippling personality flaws. Watching her grow up from the bratty, defensive, hostile child of the pilot to the calm, determined innovator and leader of the finale was really satisfying. The other characters' arcs weren't all about her, but they were about how the other characters reacted to her gradual emergence as the driving visionary force behind their project. Gordon didn't love her, his respect for her was grudging and earned, and his decision to cut out her OS and make the product his own was painful, but it was about who HE was and not all about her. Joe's personal dilemna of selling a marketable product versus believing in Cameron's vision was ultimately JOE'S struggle and a culmination of his own growth over the series. Donna's decision to turn down a job a Cardiff to pursue something truly innovative was about what SHE needed. These characters weren't just placed in these situations to serve Cameron's story, in fact it was the other way around. While I acknowledge this series was not the most deftly-written, I do think that overall, the characters were fully-realized and impacted each other in way that was logical and compelling. And I don't LOVE Cameron, but I can't jump on the hate train, either. I like her evolution and I want her to succeed!

[Anela]

I liked the show, although I wasn't glued to the TV. I'm glad that it will be back.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, I feel like the odd duck here, I really liked this show; thought the characters were realistic, interesting and compelling; and thought they did a great job of setting it in the proper era without it being cutsey. I'm kinda disappointed I waited so long to watch it, maybe I'll be able to keep up with S2 in a more timely fashion?

 

And in an instant the Giant became a dinosaur before it actually hits the market. This show continues to surprise me and I really hope it comes back, Because I am dying to see what will happen with Mutiny GRRRL Power and the Coder Monkeys. 

 

I've been surprised so many times with this show. I was sure Donna was going to be the naggy wife that just couldn't see her husband's genius and was literally driving him to drink, but that was totally not the case. I was sure Donna was going to end up being fired for helping with the data recovery, but no. I was sure Donna was heading for an affair and would eventually end up leaving Gordon, but no on that front too. I totally did not see the neighbor guy and Hunt usurping them coming, that was fantastic. I was also sure Joe was going to sell everyone out by the end of the season, but no. I've actually been really pleased with how they've managed to sidestep the obvious many times. And, I appreciate how things seem to tie together quite nicely in the end without having to beat me over the head with it. Once I started backtracking, I realized how many little hints were given to us along the way.

 

I am so confused over Joe burning that truck full of the Giants, and the aftermath.  It didn't sound like Gordon and the crew were in any trouble at all, in the boardroom scene.  Did they even know what happened?  It just didn't make sense.  Either way, all that did was make Joe go back to winning the Most Unlikable Character of the Show, in my book.  Just a selfish sociopath, who was all pissy he didn't get his way, and had to take his frustrations out, consequences be dammed.  At least they gave us the scene of Cameron owning him, and getting to watch his face crumble.  Asshole.

 

I was thinking what we saw of Gordon in the boardroom after Joe torched everything was a week or two after the fire. It sounds like Joe's fire didn't have lasting consequences on the success of the Giant.

 

Joe's madly in love with Cameron? The progress of this wasn't done well. Joe's a psychopath? Yes. This was set up at the beginning, but then there were some weeks in the middle where they seemed to completely back off of this.

 

Was Joe madly in love with Cameron or was he in love with the idea of Cameron? I just think Joe was bored and thought if he could get Cameron to come back with some ideas that would engage him. Maybe I'm just not much of a romantic though?

 

She does have a great idea for the company, but the "I am not your boss, there is no hierarchy/structure" thing just is not going to work. 

 

Yeah, I was thinking about how communism looks good on paper too, but isn't so great in practice. I'm hoping S2 will really delve into this. She's come a long way from that obnoxious girl they found in the pilot, It'll be interesting to see her have to make the tough decisions now. She was really angry at Joe and Gordon for removing the "art" from the Giant, but faced with the actual responsibilities now, will she sacrifice her principles to keep the lights on and her employees fed?

 

As far as Gordon and the "whats next", computers back then were pretty basic. What's next would be making the Giant version 2 faster, lighter and cheaper. 

 

I got the impression Gordon needs direction and without Joe he doesn't know what to do. It will also be interesting to see if he can find his own vision and move forward without Joe and Cameron or if he will just be another of those one-hit-wonders from the '80s? And, how will Donna and his marriage survive if she goes on to do great things while he sits in mediocrity?

 

Cameron was being paid $40,000 a year. Gordon complained it was more than what his wife made. Of course, she only made it for about 4 months.

 

Was it $40 thousand per year or $40 thousand for the whole project. I thought the plan was to hire her to write the BIOS and then let her go, so I assumed she was negotiating for the project, which would've been a good bit of coin for a few weeks work back in 1983.

 

But is it ok because the coders will have the freedom to make an online version of bee keeper simulator.

 

And don't forget the moon phases app...that should be a very exciting game! ;)

 

I thought Austin Tech was a community college. I don't think it was a 4 year university because I can't see some tenure track/tenured professor letting Joe in as a guest speaker.

 

I don't think so either. Cameron said something about the school being so sub-par that she wasn't learning anything she didn't already know. Not that it means it couldn't be a 4-year university, but I just got the sense it was more like a trade school or something of that ilk.

 

Didn't Joe lie and say he was from IBM? I seem to remember the professor saying that they weren't going to do the planned lecture because they had this surprise visitor from IBM. But, Joe wasn't really there to lecture, he was scouting for someone who could write the BIOS for him. It was the first step in his plan, or so I thought.

[ketose]

Was it $40 thousand per year or $40 thousand for the whole project. I thought the plan was to hire her to write the BIOS and then let her go, so I assumed she was negotiating for the project, which would've been a good bit of coin for a few weeks work back in 1983.

I think she was being paid weekly. I just meant that she quit after the Giant was produced. In theory, she could have continued there making the same amount doing BIOS and interface changes. $40K/yr was a lot of money for a kid out of college in 1983.

[RustbeltWriter]

Just watched this and I didn't understand Joe torching the truck. Also, no carrier leaves their truck unsecured in a customer's parking lot overnight with tens of thousands of dollars of cargo just sitting inside unsecured. When Joe stepped over the velvet rope security system and just popped those doors open I shook my head in disbelief. Not even a padlock? Come on.

[paramitch]

One minor item to note:

I was really unhappy (from my post of four years ago earlier here!) with this finale originally, but I did a full show rewatch recently, and liked this finale better this time than I did the first time. It didn't hurt that I felt that everything after this episode was just increasing levels of beautiful television, so I can forgive Joe his few moments of melodrama here. Each season after this one (and this was uneven but wonderful) was better than the season before, in the best way.

Spoiler

Especially since he (and everyone else) does experience real fallout and consequences from his actions -- so it wasn't just a silly and theatrical gesture to end the season -- he's being typical Joe, acting out, and yes it ends up costing him in the end. Which I was glad about.

 

So if you were like me and stopped watching at this point? Keep going. The show actually goes from being uneven and occasionally great to being terrific (and inclusive, gender-balanced) television.

(The series finale is my favorite of all time. Of any show. Just sayin'.)

Edited September 4, 2018 by paramitch

[lookeyloo]

Can I just chime in to say that my son's house was used as Donna's house.  The producers changed a few things, but, we are tickled to see it.