Book 3: Voyager

[GHScorpiosRule]

Yes. Lord Grey really grew on me. I don't love him as much as some others do, but I do enjoy his moments in the series.

 

I also tagged your post because of future book info.

 

Thanks Athena, and YIPES for not spoiler tagging! Sorry if I spoiled this for anyone. Not my intent!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I would like to know, just what is so great about the character of Lord John William Grey, that he warrants his own set of novellas? I find him pompous, arrogant, whiny and just not interesting.

 

I do have to say that I got chills, chills, when Grey made a pass at Jamie and Jamie said "Remove your hand or I will kill you.".  

 

So far, this is my favorite of the books so far, if only because I feel I finally get to see Jamie. Not that I didn't get a sense of who he was after he and Claire married, and especially after what happened at Wentworth, but he's not just a romantic hero, if that makes sense. I feel like I finally know him.

 

And because I'm a spoiler whore I have to know! Who is the White Witch Duncan Kerr was mumbling about? Geillis?

Edited May 22, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[AheadofStraight]

I like LJG but I wouldn't gush about him. I read the Scottish Prisoner which is mostly him and Jamie and I found it a good read and I enjoyed him in it. I don't know where you are in the book but he really helps out Jamie's situation as to where he ends up after Culloden. 

 

I can't remember the white witch thing. Is that when she was referred to as La Dame Blanche? (sp?)

[CatMack]

I always liked that John presented another form of masculinity.  I like Jamie as a character, and for the most part it's not as bad as it could be and Gabaldon does subvert it at times, but there are definitely times where Jamie presents a very toxic form of masculinity and what it means to be a man.  It's understandable (current masculine standards tend to be very toxic, I'm sure it was just as bad if not worse 200 years ago) but I like that we get a character like John, who tends to be a little softer and less brutish, but is still a well regarded, intelligent, sympathetic character we're supposed to empathize with.  I've never read any of his solo books and don't know that I ever will, but I like his inclusion with the main Outlander verse because he provides a balance to the testosterone poisoning that seems to be present in most of the other male characters.  See also why I like

Denzell Hunter

in later books even though I don't really want to read a whole book about him.

[WatchrTina]

 

I would like to know, just what is so great about the character of Lord John Williasm Grey, that he warrants his own set of novellas? I find him pompous, arrogant, whiny and just not interesting.

Okay, I'm going to try to answer this but It's going to spoil you big time for this book.   I know you said you want to be spoiled but consider yourself warned  And some of this could bleed into other books so I will tread carefully.

 

In general I like John Grey because he is a character I have never seen before -- a high-born, member of the British aristocracy -- the son of a Duke (hence his title of "Lord" John Grey) -- a soldier, a warrior in the same way Jamie is a warrior, and a homosexual man.  This was an era where being homosexual was a hanging offense.  So here's a guy who won the lottery in terms of where he sits in the English class system and yet he has this HUGE challenge in his life.  That makes for some good drama in the set-up.  Then we come to the scene you spoke of -- where he makes a pass at Jamie.  By the time that happens I had come to like the character due to the kindness he showed to Jamie, that he treated him as Lord Broch Turach and not just a common prisoner, and that he had not taken revenge on Jamie for the absolutely mortifying experience that Jamie had put him through in his youth.  So when Jamie threatened to kill him I was scared -- scared for John and scared for Jamie (who might finally get himself hanged as a result).  It was a great, tense scene where I felt for BOTH characters and completely understood where each of them was coming from and why things went the way they did.  

 

After that, the relationship between John and Jamie gets even more complex.  When Jamie takes the lashing that really should have landed on one of the other prisoners he does it  to force John into a position of punishing him and by doing so he makes sure John knows (with apologies to Taylor Swift) that they are never ever ever getting together.  That scene --- brrrrr -- that scene is awesome.  

 

And despite all that, John continues to treat Jamie well.  John really is the anti-Black Jack.  In episode 115 of the TV show Black Jack is revealed to be the sole reason that Jamie is still alive.  He gallops in on horse like a f**king white knight and saves him -- but all for black, evil reasons.  John Grey also saves Jamie.  It's likely that transportation to America would have killed Jamie, given his horrible sea-sickness.  John makes it possible for Jamie to avoid that fate and, to a certain extent, gives him a life (working with horses on a great estate) that was pretty damn good, all things considered.  John does that out of some pretty complex emotions.  He has feelings for a man who LOATHES him for being gay.  He helps him anyway.  That's some noble behavior there.  So in a nutshell that's why I like John.  He loves my fictional boyfriend (which I totally understand) and he helps him even though his feelings aren't returned (for which I am grateful.)  And from a literary point of view, he's a character whose experiences are entirely new to me.  I don't recall ever reading about a member of the 18th century British aristocracy who just happens to be gay and is also a successful soldier, an effective leader of men, an a bit of an amateur sleuth, a complete numb-skull in his romantic life, a guy with a complicated family, and all the other things that are revealed in subsequent books and novellas.  

 

I guess the bottom line is that, over time, John Grey is revealed to be a fine, honorable, decent, loyal man -- a warrior and a true friend to Jamie  -- who also just happens to be gay.  That's pretty refreshing.  

 

ETA:  I don't think it's ever made 100% clear who the 'White Witch" is but I always assumed that particular guy was talking about Geillis.

Edited May 22, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm at the point where Jamie escaped Ardsmuir prison, because that guy they found muttering in Gaelic and French said something about a White Witch and gold. Jamie escaped thinking it might be Claire, because he'd given her the moniker of La Dame Blanche. But she want there. Grey needed Jamie to translate for him. Turned out the guy was from the Mackenzie clan.

Actually I just finished the part where Jamie tool the lashing for Angus, as Angus had had a piece of his clan's tartan.

 

Okay, I'm going to try to answer this but It's going to spoil you big time for this book.   I know you said you want to be spoiled but consider yourself warned  And some of this could bleed into other books so I will tread carefully.
 
 
After that, the relationship between John and Jamie gets even more complex.  When Jamie takes the lashing that really should have landed on one of the other prisoners he does it  to force John into a position of punishing him and by doing so he makes sure John knows (with apologies to Taylor Swift) that they are never ever ever getting together.  That scene --- brrrrr -- that scene is awesome.

 

No need to worry about that,as I've read all the book threads and am pretty much spoiled based on the comments I've read.

 

Yeah, I've already read and posted about how Jamie took the blame for Angus MacKenzie. And poor Angus, got beaten up by the others for it.

 

I just got to the part where that spoilt bitch, Lady Geneva, has just blackmailed Jamie into having sex with her; as she's absconded Jenny's letter, which that that twit already read.

 

And I really don't understand how Jamie is toxic. Because he's a man of his times? Because he's an alpha male? That doesn't translate for me. You (general you, not anyone specific)  don't like those types, that's fine. Me? I like my heroes alpha, but I also like ones that aren't that alpha. But I don't consider them toxic. That's just another word I wish would disappear like the constant refrain of torture porn.

 

But that's just me.

Edited May 22, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[WatchrTina]

 

CatMack said: There are definitely times where Jamie presents a very toxic form of masculinity and what it means to be a man.

 

GHScorpiosRule said: I really don't understand how Jamie is toxic. Because he's a man of his times? Because he's an alpha male?

 

I suspect that what CatMack is talking about manifests most clearly in later books.  I don't think it is a spoiler to say that there is one moment where Claire has to explain to another character that, in her medical opinion the reason that Jamie and another male character are, at that very moment, trying to beat each other bloody, is that they are both suffering from testosterone poisoning.  That scene is the direct consequence of Jamie having made a MAJOR mistake -- one that has huge repercussions on him and his family -- because of his going all alpha male before obtaining all the facts.  That screw-up

kidnapping Roger and giving him to the Indians

 reverberates for years and across oceans.  And Jamie, much as I love him, doesn't necessarily improve with age on this point.  He over-reacts to something at the very beginning of book 8 and the repercussions of that action cause no end of problems for a character we (or at least I) have come to love 

(poor Lord John and his broken eye socket!)

 

There are probably more examples that I'm not thinking of -- maybe even some in books 1 - 3.  The bottom line is that as much as I love JAMMF, he's not perfect and occasionally his failings (toxic behavior if you must use the term) have seriously negative consequences to himself and the people he cares about.

Edited May 22, 2015 by WatchrTina

[lianau]

He over-reacts to something at the very beginning of book 8 and the repercussions of that action cause no end of problems for a character we (or at least I) have come to love 

(poor Lord John and his broken eye socket!)

I'm not sure I'd call it overreacting though , it's a reaction to the other character kicking down a

(the "never mention that you want to bone me" )

pillar of their friendship .

[auntlada]

And because I'm a spoiler whore I have to know! Who is the White Witch Duncan Kerr was mumbling about? Geillis?

Based on the end of the book, I have always believed so.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh that reunion was EVERYTHING!

Even though I'd read about Geordie's reaction, to seeing Jamie with just his shirt and Claire in his arms with a ripped dress, I still laughed.

Whoa to Frank's racism. And his serial cheating AND wanting to take Bree from Claire so she wouldn't fuck a black man.

Hmm...so Jamie jerks and admits he's a smuggler, but doesn't come clean about Laoghaire? Or maybe he jerked at "bigamist" and since that was in the same sentence as crime, only confessed to that?

By the way Gabaldon has written Willoughby, I'm so not looking forward to how she has him speak English.

But I loved Claire and Jamie's reunion.

Oh wilna lie-my eyes blurred when Jamie said goodbye to Willie. He's "a stinking Papist" now! Just like his Da.

Did I mention that I loved their reunion in the printer shop?

Edited May 23, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[CatMack]

WatchrTina was pretty close to what I mean when I say toxic masculinity.  Toxic masculinity is basically the idea that Real Men have to behave in specific ways to be Real Men, and often those behaviors are harmful to themselves or others, and if they fail to behave that way then they are less than their fellow men.  It's a huge problem now in our current culture, so like I said I don't necessarily fault Gabaldon for writing those traits in as I'm sure it was just as much of a problem back then.  Societal expectations are often really shitty.  And like I said, she does subvert it at times.  One aspect of toxic masculinity is the idea that men can't be victims because they're too strong physically and emotionally.  It's why male rape victims aren't often believed, and physical male abuse is sometimes used as "comedy".  Having Jamie be the first character in the series to suffer a rape, having it be acknowledged in the text repeatedly, having it affect Jamie for the rest of his life, having him willing to talk to Claire about it even just occasionally, that all subverts toxic masculinity, but it still crops up a lot too.  It's not bad writing to have characters like that, they exist in real life, but it's nice to get a counterbalance with some other masculine personality types as well.

 

And yeah, Mr. Willoughby is a cringe worthy walking racist stereotype and I hope they improve the character a lot for the show.  

[ulkis]

I'm not sure I'd call it overreacting though , it's a reaction to the other character kicking down a

(the "never mention that you want to bone me" )

pillar of their friendship .

 

I haven't read all the books. I don't suppose Jamie ever has a, "woe is me, I curse my beauty!" moment, does he? heh.

Edited May 23, 2015 by ulkis

[GHScorpiosRule]

I haven't read all the books. I don't suppose Jamie ever has a, "woe is me, I curse my beauty!" moment, does he? heh.

Not that I've read so far. Hell, not sure when the last time he even looked in a mirror.

I ken ye were bein' funny but Jamie doesna strike me as one who is narcissistic.

I have anuther question: do we ever see the rest of this book from Jamie's POV? Or no because he and Claire are back together?

[auntlada]

I think there are some more parts from his point of view because there are parts where they are separated. But I am not sure. It has been a long time since I read it. His pov may be in stuff he is telling Claire.

Edited May 24, 2015 by auntlada

[peacefrog]

There are more, like when he goes aboard the other ship looking for Claire, but not many.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay so I'm at the point where they set sail for the West Indies. So far:

I don't like Marsali and her use of "Daddy" sounds so anachronistic. I'm too lazy to look up when that was used as a word to address one's father.

Every time she said it, I was telling her to shut up.

Then there's the hosebeast. Finally got Jamie but made him feel like a rapist, yet still shrieks that he's HERS!!! Whatever you sad, vindictive sack of patheticness.

Back to the more important stuff. I can't believe Gabaldon had Jamie call Claire a whore. Oh wait. Yes I can. And I don't care if I'm alone in this, but I don't understand the level of Claire's anger toward Jamie when she learns he married Laoghaire. Yes, I can see why, but her whole "Jamie SHOULD HAVE KNOWN" that she was responsible for Claire being tried as a witch was just ridiculous, and it was revealed he didn't know, nor did she ever tell him.

Yes, Jamie is at fault for not telling her and his reasons, but Claire just saw it as him betraying her, which I don't see. And it takes him near death again for her to listen.

Okay and I'll end with a positive:

I LOVE Young Ian, especially when he says "Auntie." There's something so endearing about that. And so of course he has to be kidnapped because someone has to be in peril and nothing can go smoothly.

Hmmm...guess I didn't end on a positive.

How's this? This book is my favorite. It's one where I've done the least skimming.

Edited May 25, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[WatchrTina]

 

I can't believe Gabaldon had Jamie call Claire a whore.

Wait, what?  When did that happen?  

[GHScorpiosRule]

Wait, what? When did that happen?

During their fight when Claire learned he had married Loaghaire. As she's hitting and scratching him, and they're rolling on the floor. He's blaming her for leaving even though he told her to. So, he calls her a bitch and then a whore.

[chocolatetruffle]

During their fight when Claire learned he had married Loaghaire. As she's hitting and scratching him, and they're rolling on the floor. He's blaming her for leaving even though he told her to. So, he calls her a bitch and then a whore.

 

Wow, I missed this too!  I guess I better go re-read that section :-)

[WatchrTina]

Weel, I won't go re-read it.  I'm sure you're right.  He's not perfect.  I just watched ep 109 The Reckoning (I missed it during the marathon) and even then after the huge fight by the rive after the rescue he "says more than he meant."  "Whore" is rather go-to epithet when you're angry at a women.  But yeah, bit of a shock to hear that come out of Jamie's mouth in regard to Claire.  If I have to fan-wank it I guess it's because she's hurting him in the worst way by implying that he betrayed her by marrying Laoghaire but he knows what a miserable marriage it was.  On the other hand, he knows Claire went back to Frank and that she loved Frank (or at least she did before her trip through the stones) AND Frank got to raise his daughter.  So the injustice of Claire being mad about Laoghaire in the face of his jealousy over Frank -- well I have to say that's what bubbled up in inappropriate name-calling and Diana was probably correct to let him go there.

 

Yeah, I'm in post-marathon after-glow.  Feeling pretty supportive of Herself right now in gratitude for creating the Outlander-verse.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Weel, I won't go re-read it. I'm sure you're right. He's not perfect. I just watched ep 109 The Reckoning (I missed it during the marathon) and even then after the huge fight by the rive after the rescue he "says more than he meant." "Whore" is rather go-to epithet when you're angry at a women. But yeah, bit of a shock to hear that come out of Jamie's mouth in regard to Claire. If I have to fan-wank it I guess it's because she's hurting him in the worst way by implying that he betrayed her by marrying Laoghaire but he knows what a miserable marriage it was. On the other hand, he knows Claire went back to Frank and that she loved Frank (or at least she did before her trip through the stones) AND Frank got to raise his daughter. So the injustice of Claire being mad about Laoghaire in the face of his jealousy over Frank -- well I have to say that's what bubbled up in inappropriate name-calling and Diana was probably correct to let him go there.

Yeah, I'm in post-marathon after-glow. Feeling pretty supportive of Herself right now in gratitude for creating the Outlander-verse.

Okay quoting entire post cuz I'm responding from my phone. In "The Reckoning" Jamie called Claire "a foul mouthed bitch!" after she called him a "fucking bastard!" I think it's that calling her that word he was talking about going further than he meant, since he did go there.

I can't get past how she (Gabaldon) had Jamie call Claire a whore though. Bitch, vixen, hellion, wench, yes. But Whore?

And I loved this show, still do, even though I barely remembered the more important plot points. And still would even if I had chosen not to try and read them again. And that's due to Gabaldon creating this world, but I'm still giving her the stink-eye for putting that word in Jamie's mouth.

So as I'm clueless at times, what part of this book is "The French Farce"?

Oh! Forgot to add how Fergus fell to his knees when he saw that Claire had returned and all his "MiLadys"!

But yeah, all that dialogue with Yi Tien Cho are beyond cringe worthy. I expect to see "flied lice" for fried rice, especially after that one scene where he couldn't pronounce the "r" in Reverend Campbell's name.

And I know the Culloden part is over, but I was surprised that Gabaldon didn't mention how the Clan Campbell contributed to the decimation with their betrayal.

Edited May 26, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[WatchrTina]

 

So as I'm clueless at times, what part of this book is "The French Farce"?

Ah, that's me you're quoting there, from way up-thread.  I was making the similitude that the frantic series of events that follows Jamie and Claire's big reunion scene reminds me of a French farce -- a play in which characters are constantly running in and out of various doors, mistaking one person for another, chasing one another, hiding things from one another and generally deriving humor from the sheer magnitude of events piled one on top the other.  That's what the second half of the book reminds me of -- especially all the activity in town right after Claire arrives. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ah, that's me you're quoting there, from way up-thread. I was making the similitude that the frantic series of events that follows Jamie and Claire's big reunion scene reminds me of a French farce -- a play in which characters are constantly running in and out of various doors, mistaking one person for another, chasing one another, hiding things from one another and generally deriving humor from the sheer magnitude of events piled one on top the other. That's what the second half of the book reminds me of -- especially all the activity in town right after Claire arrives.

Ahhhh, got it! And I soooo agree. Though of course I haven't found it exhausting to continue just yet. I'm waiting for the Jamie's seasickness is treated by acupuncture. Or was just speculation?

[WatchrTina]

 

. I'm waiting for the Jamie's seasickness is treated by acupuncture. Or was just speculation?

Nope, not speculation.  That's Mr. Willoughby's raison d'etre.

[lianau]

I have to say I like the existence of Mr Willoughby  for more than just the sea sickness. I don't see his as a racist caricature as much as I think he offers an inside view into the treatment of different minorities . They all treat him like an unruly child at best and as some weird  pet at worst. Even enlightened Jamie isn't immune to that . 

[basil]

I'm waiting for the Jamie's seasickness is treated by acupuncture. Or was just speculation?

 

 

Nope, not speculation.  That's Mr. Willoughby's raison d'etre.

 

 

I have to say I like the existence of Mr Willoughby  for more than just the sea sickness. I don't see his as a racist caricature as much as I think he offers an inside view into the treatment of different minorities . They all treat him like an unruly child at best and as some weird  pet at worst. Even enlightened Jamie isn't immune to that .

 

 

Actually, Willoughby has a beautiful backstory, which is translated by Jamie. Willoughby was given a very high honor in his own country as (I think) a prized poet - unfortunately, it meant he had to become a eunuch and was not allowed to refuse the "honor".

 

So he fled. making do with what he could, which wasn't much. Things went from bad to worse. No one understood him and he took to drink. Arguably, Jamie saved his life. Saved him again (again, arguably) went he went overboard for the pelican.

 

No, Willoughny is not always treated well, but Asians weren't then.He isn't all that much of a characature, though, just a foreigner in a strange land and not coping well with it. 

 

As he says at the end of his speech, after fleeing to literally save his balls, thinking about how poorly he is treated, he cups them and says "Sometimes I think it wasn't worth it". In other words, he may have been better off staying where he was, living in a palace, even if he had to lose his balls in the process.

[Glaze Crazy]

Doesn't someone in Paris casually offer to buy Mr. Willoughby from Claire, for a client who "collects" Asian things? 

 

I also don't see him as so much of a stereotype as just a man of a different culture out of his space and not understood or really accepted by the culture he is now living in.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I have to say I like the existence of Mr Willoughby  for more than just the sea sickness. I don't see his as a racist caricature as much as I think he offers an inside view into the treatment of different minorities . They all treat him like an unruly child at best and as some weird  pet at worst. Even enlightened Jamie isn't immune to that . 

 

Yes, this is true, but I'm talking about how Gabaldon has him speak. It's racist, bad stereotyping, and makes him look like a caricature.

 

Actually, Willoughby has a beautiful backstory, which is translated by Jamie. Willoughby was given a very high honor in his own country as (I think) a prized poet - unfortunately, it meant he had to become a eunuch and was not allowed to refuse the "honor".

 

So he fled. making do with what he could, which wasn't much. Things went from bad to worse. No one understood him and he took to drink. Arguably, Jamie saved his life. Saved him again (again, arguably) went he went overboard for the pelican.

 

No, Willoughny is not always treated well, but Asians weren't then.He isn't all that much of a characature, though, just a foreigner in a strange land and not coping well with it. 

 

As he says at the end of his speech, after fleeing to literally save his balls, thinking about how poorly he is treated, he cups them and says "Sometimes I think it wasn't worth it". In other words, he may have been better off staying where he was, living in a palace, even if he had to lose his balls in the process.

 

 

He does. And it makes me wonder why Gabaldon wouldn't have him speak better English. Mileage varies, but I find it insulting.

 

Doesn't someone in Paris casually offer to buy Mr. Willoughby from Claire, for a client who "collects" Asian things? 

 

I also don't see him as so much of a stereotype as just a man of a different culture out of his space and not understood or really accepted by the culture he is now living in.

 

Yes, when Claire first meets him, the barkeep or whoever, offers to buy him. I understand that he's a fish out of water, but the way Gabaldon has charactarized him, he does not come off as the intelligent, knowledgeable person he is.  Like I said, our mileage varies.

[basil]

it makes me wonder why Gabaldon wouldn't have [Willoughby] speak better English. Mileage varies, but I find it insulting.

 

 

As a friend once said to me "if you're insulted, you're insulted". I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but I am curious: were men of his status and in that time frame known for their fluency in English? I'm asking because I truly don't know.

 

I recently saw The King and I on broadway. It's set in (I think) around the time of Lincoln's death (so 1860's?). In the play (I don't know if this was so in true life), learning English and learning more about Western culture was becoming important. Many of the Siamese spoke no English at all. Some spoke a kind of rudimentary English, and a few were fluent.

 

These are two fictional pieces, and two different countries, set about a hundred years apart, I realise - but would it be realistic for Willoughby, a Chinese native on his own, to speak fluent English?

 

Now if you want to talk about Asian stereotypes that bug me, we can look to the modern day Sherlock's episode, The Blind Banker - but that's another thread.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I recently saw The King and I on broadway. It's set in (I think) around the time of Lincoln's death (so 1860's?). In the play (I don't know if this was so in true life), learning English and learning more about Western culture was becoming important. Many of the Siamese spoke no English at all. Some spoke a kind of rudimentary English, and a few were fluent.

 

These are two fictional pieces, and two different countries, set about a hundred years apart, I realise - but would it be realistic for Willoughby, a Chinese native on his own, to speak fluent English?

 

I can only go by what I remember reading as a kid--how the Burmese (I know, not the same as Chinese), leaders were able to communicate with Shah Akbar, who was ruling India at the time (I think around the 1600s).

 

There are at least two other historicals I've read...set in the early 1800s, where the Chinese characters (okay, they were the villain of this particular story, but the main character had been dealing with them for years (at least 10)) spoke in formal, precise English. Well, the author had them speak in that manner. And I know this was television, and the late 1860s, but at least on Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman, the one recurring Chinese character spoke in formal English, as did other guest stars in an episode about how the women's feet were bound. It could have been creative and dramatic license, I don't know. But it was hella lot better than reading or seeing someone not be able to pronounce rs and be mocked for not "talking" like the others do.  And after learning about Cho's background, you know that he was learned. So I have a difficult time accepting the dialogue that Gabaldon puts in his mouth.

 

And those two historicals I read came out before Gabaldon's series, or right around the same time.

[lianau]

I think it also depends on how long he has been around English speaking people who would communicate with him . You can't learn a language in a vacuum .

[basil]

There are at least two other historicals I've read...set in the early 1800s, where the Chinese characters (okay, they were the villain of this particular story, but the main character had been dealing with them for years (at least 10)) spoke in formal, precise English.Well, the author had them speak in that manner. And I know this was television, and the late 1860s, but at least on Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman, the one recurring Chinese character spoke in formal English, as did other guest stars in an episode about how the women's feet were bound. It could have been creative and dramatic license, I don't know. But it was hella lot better than reading or seeing someone not be able to pronounce rs and be mocked for not "talking" like the others do.  And after learning about Cho's background, you know that he was learned. So I have a difficult time accepting the dialogue that Gabaldon puts in his mouth.

 

I just want to be sure that I understand you correctly. You think Gabaldon is a racist in her portrayal of Willoughby's English speech because of the way other people spoke in fictional novels and tv shows based in the same time period? Caine of Kung Fu spoke perfect English too, but these are fictional characters. Fact beats out fiction for me - but as I said before, if you're insulted, you're insulted.

 

There are a lot of reasons not to like Gabaldon's treatment of people who are not Claire (Claire seems to me to be Gabaldon's alter-ego). She does use Willoughby as comic relief overmuch (imo). She goes a bit too far with his foot fetish and his buffonery when he's drunk - but his speech? Even a well-educated person might not speak another language fluently (I know of many well-educated Japanese people who speak English fluently, but still have trouble with "L"s and "R"s). I also don't like her obvious distaste for overweight people (but drinking while pregnant is just fine). Gabaldon doesn't seem like a terribly pleasant person from the interviews I've read (one had someone asking her about "clans" and "fiery crosses" and asked if she didn't worry if some might consider that racist. She replied "Where do you think the KKK got it from?"

 

I'll give her this. she has balls and can write a decent entertaining tale. I could go on but I'll leave it there.

 

I think it also depends on how long he has been around English speaking people who would communicate with him . You can't learn a language in a vacuum .

Ok, well, this, too. Willioughby didn't have any other Chinese around him to help, and spoke mostly (initially) to Jamie, who also admittedly spoke to him in a kind of pidgin English, and truth be told, doesn't speak "perfect English" himself.

Edited May 27, 2015 by basil

[Starla]

I recently finished this book and enjoyed it much more than I expected, based on opinions I had heard going into it. I even enjoyed the the Caribbean stuff. The only parts I found difficult to read were the sections where Claire was disoriented, and the writing reflected her confused state of mind and was hard to follow. It happened several times near the end... during the shamanic ritual with the channeled entity (so bizarre) where she drank the hallucinogenic tea, during and after the cave sequence with Geillis, and worst of all, during the hurricane and near-drowning near the end. That was nearly impossible to follow and I felt like Claire while reading, being pummeled about with no sense of up or down. I was as thankful for dry land by the end of it.

 

I knew going in that Jamie had married Laoghaire, and kept holding my breath waiting for him to tell Claire. The longer it went on and he didn't tell her, the more anxious I got and knew there would be hell to pay. I don't know what he was thinking because she was bound to find out sooner or later and he had to know it wouldn't be good. I was thankful when they made it past that hurtle relatively intact, though I'm still wondering where he's going to get the money to pay Laoghaire. I hope the Lallybroch crew aren't stuck with that bill.

 

In book one, when Jamie's sea-sickness was first introduced, my first thought was that acupuncture would clear that up in no time! So I was pleasantly surprised to come across that part of the book. Even though there were a number stereotypes in his character, I enjoyed Mr. Willoughby for who he was as a person. I think he could be an interesting character in the show if handled correctly.

 

I also liked John Grey and look forward to reading more about him. He seems like a very kind and gentle soul. I see that the Lord John books take place during the Voyager timeline, and am considering reading them before book 4 for continuity. Though I also hear parts of book 4 take place in the very place where I live, so I'm also excited to get to that. 

 

Finally, I adore Fergus and am bummed he got left behind on the islands and hope he can catch up with Jamie and Claire again, though I imagine he and Marsali will probably go back to Scotland. I thought the wedding on the beach was one of the best scenes in the whole book.

[lianau]

I think Jamie had a severe case of head in sand syndrome regarding Laoghaire - if I don't mention her she might magically disappear before she becomes an issue ... Of course it only made everything worse .

[WatchrTina]

 

I also liked John Grey and look forward to reading more about him. He seems like a very kind and gentle soul. I see that the Lord John books take place during the Voyager timeline, and am considering reading them before book 4 for continuity.

I'm a big fan of John Grey and I enjoyed the John Grey novellas but what I really liked was reading the two John Grey novels in which Jamie appears.  Voyager gives rather short shrift to how Jamie and John ease into friendship during the Helwater years.  The two John Grey novels that feature Jamie (set during the Helwater years) tell of a much rockier journey.  Near the end of The Brotherhood of the Blade, John and Jamie have a huge fight.  It's dangerous.  It's really bad.  Jamie says terrible things about John's attraction to men, John says exactly the wrong thing to Jamie (not realizing that he's dealing with rape survivor with a fierce case of PTSD for whom any discussion of homosexual attraction if a huge trigger.)  When Jamie turns up in a later novel, The Scottish Prisoner (where he is POV narrator for about half the chapters), John and Jamie actively despise one another.  Circumstances throw them into each other's company for a prolonged period of time and the tension is so thick you could cut with with a knife.  I really loved that insight into the very complicated relationship between John and Jamie.  What happens in those novels informs some of the action that takes place in later novels in the "big book" series -- especially a confrontation they have in book 8 --  so if you are really interested in understanding John and Jamie's relationship, those two novels are a must.  

[lianau]

Despise each other is a bit harsh , they irritate the living daylights out of each other . It's actually and interesting topic , will Jamie ever tell John what happened to him ? I mean John has an idea since the Brotherhood explosion but doesn't know for sure .

[WatchrTina]

 

Despise each other is a bit harsh

You think?  When John's brother, Hal insists on involving Jamie in the issue at hand in The Scottish Prisoner, John says the following 

"I would not piss on him was he burning in the flames of hell." When Hal wonders "whether Fraser might be induced to perform a similar service for you." Grey responds "Only if he thought I might drown."

 So maybe despise is the wrong word but clearly they are well and truly furious with each other and neither wants to have anything to do with the other.  Hal is the one that forces them into contact because, plot.

 

 

will Jamie ever tell John what happened to him ?

That's the really interesting thing that happens at the end of The Brotherhood of the Blade when they have the big fight.  John sees Jamie react in a REALLY strong way to something provocative that John says and that's when John gets an inkling that Jamie has been raped.  It is one of those flashes of insight that you can have in a book when you live inside a character's head so it is very interesting to know that John now holds this suspicion about Jamie.  I do not think that Jamie will ever discuss it with John and I don't think Claire will ever tell him either.  But given that he now holds that suspicion, he really should have been a bit more careful with what he says to Jamie at the beginning of Book 8.  He wasn't careful and, boom!, physical injury and prolonged peril follows.  Really, it's not a good idea to poke at JAMMF on that particular topic.

Edited May 30, 2015 by WatchrTina

[lianau]

I'm not sure how to explain it , I don't think they hate each other in the truest definition of the word hate. I think they hate the way they react to each other more than they  hate actual person . 

[WatchrTina]

Actually, I think that's a very accurate description.  They don't want to be around each other at the beginning of that novel because they make each other horribly uncomfortable in many, many ways and they resent each other for making them feel that way.  

 

There is another interesting scene in The Scottish Prisoner when Jamie walks into a room and sees Harry Quarry seated in Hal's parlor.  I had completely forgotten that Harry (who shows up in virtually all the John Grey novels as a family friend) had been in charge of Ardsmuir prison before John, and that he was the one who kept Jamie in irons for 18 months.  When Jamie sees him, he has such a strong reaction he has to turn right around and walk out of the room -- he has the same kind of PTSD / flashback / rage response that we see when he's reminded of what he went through at Wentworth.  I found it interesting to realize that the condition of having been chained, literally chained, for 18-months was a source of humiliation, anger and and deeply held resentment for Jamie.  His feelings on that subject are nothing like the rage he feels towards Black Jack, but let's just say it was in everybody's best interest that Jamie left the room and found a way to master his emotions.

Edited May 30, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Starla]

I'm a big fan of John Grey and I enjoyed the John Grey novellas but what I really liked was reading the two John Grey novels in which Jamie appears.  Voyager gives rather short shrift to how Jamie and John ease into friendship during the Helwater years.  The two John Grey novels that feature Jamie (set during the Helwater years) tell of a much rockier journey.  Near the end of The Brotherhood of the Blade, John and Jamie have a huge fight.  It's dangerous.  It's really bad.  Jamie says terrible things about John's attraction to men, John says exactly the wrong thing to Jamie (not realizing that he's dealing with rape survivor with a fierce case of PTSD for whom any discussion of homosexual attraction if a huge trigger.)  When Jamie turns up in a later novel, The Scottish Prisoner (where he is POV narrator for about half the chapters), John and Jamie actively despise one another.  Circumstances throw them into each other's company for a prolonged period of time and the tension is so thick you could cut with with a knife.  I really loved that insight into the very complicated relationship between John and Jamie.  What happens in those novels informs some of the action that takes place in later novels in the "big book" series -- especially a confrontation they have in book 8 --  so if you are really interested in understanding John and Jamie's relationship, those two novels are a must.  

 

 

Thanks for this feedback. I see on Amazon there are four Lord John Novels, but I assume the two with Jamie are Brotherhood of the Blade and The Scottish Prisoner? What order should I read them in? Also, I am considering listening to the audio books, but see that Davina Porter does not narrate them. Does anyone know if they are any good?

[lianau]

Brotherhood of the Blade and then The Scottish Prisoner .  As to the audio books  , no idea , I've never used an audio book .

[AheadofStraight]

I believe a male reads those books if I recall correctly. I'm one of the few who couldn't get into Davina's voice. It was like nails on chalkboard for me. :/

[GHScorpiosRule]

I finally finished this sometime last week, and came away with two things:

 

That almost every woman Claire meets thinks she's a whore or calls her one.  Marsali did it practically through the entire book, then all of a sudden, she was "Mother Claire" without her ever apologizing to Claire for calling her that. Guess it was all done off-screen.

 

And that Geillis was suddenly villainized to the point where she lost all her layers/characterization. I mean, I don't recall her being so malevolent and twirling 'stache villainous.  And that she's a cold-blooded murderer on top of that. And a racist. 

 

And then there's how it's all revealed that Yi Tien Cho is actually this smart, learned man, who is finally ready to leave after that woman's murder, and that Jamie did him no favors saving him? (the latter I can't recall), and Gabaldon thought it would be fun to make him such a mockable caricature up to that point?

 

I totally knew who the murdering Fiend was, so when it was revealed, I was not surprised at all.

 

From what I understand, these books come years apart, so by the time this one did, I remain confused as to why there isn't a brave copy editor out there who has the gumption to aggressively edit out all the unnecessary chaff. Is it written in her contract that she's to be as wordy as possible even if it doesn't move the plot forward or makes no sense?

 

So after finishing, I was very happy to sit down and inhale Anne Stuart's newest. Which I finished way too quickly.

[auntlada]

From what I understand, these books come years apart, so by the time this one did, I remain confused as to why there isn't a brave copy editor out there who has the gumption to aggressively edit out all the unnecessary chaff. Is it written in her contract that she's to be as wordy as possible even if it doesn't move the plot forward or makes no sense?

 

Possibly scare thought: What if this is aggressively edited? How much longer might it have been?

[GHScorpiosRule]

Possibly scare thought: What if this is aggressively edited? How much longer might it have been?

 

That is a scary thought.

 

Well, since we've been talking about it here, I'll share. The Scottish Prisoner is NOT available through my library. But the other one is, The Brotherhood of the Blade, I think WatchrTina said to read. The price for Scottish isna sae bad, so I guess I'll get it. LATER.  But at least I can read the rest from my libary, because I'm not forking over money to read the rest of the series, considering that I continue to not like her writing, but still enjoy the story, and based on everyone's comments in each of the book threads, I want to read it and see Jamie and Claire's story enfold.

[MsProudSooner]

I'm a big fan of John Grey and I enjoyed the John Grey novellas but what I really liked was reading the two John Grey novels in which Jamie appears.  Voyager gives rather short shrift to how Jamie and John ease into friendship during the Helwater years.  The two John Grey novels that feature Jamie (set during the Helwater years) tell of a much rockier journey.  Near the end of The Brotherhood of the Blade, John and Jamie have a huge fight.  It's dangerous.  It's really bad.  Jamie says terrible things about John's attraction to men, John says exactly the wrong thing to Jamie (not realizing that he's dealing with rape survivor with a fierce case of PTSD for whom any discussion of homosexual attraction if a huge trigger.)  When Jamie turns up in a later novel, The Scottish Prisoner (where he is POV narrator for about half the chapters), John and Jamie actively despise one another.  Circumstances throw them into each other's company for a prolonged period of time and the tension is so thick you could cut with with a knife.  I really loved that insight into the very complicated relationship between John and Jamie.  What happens in those novels informs some of the action that takes place in later novels in the "big book" series -- especially a confrontation they have in book 8 --  so if you are really interested in understanding John and Jamie's relationship, those two novels are a must.  

I just finished book 4.  Should I read the Lord John Grey books and novellas before I go on to book 5?

[Nidratime]

This is the chronology, but it just sticks the short fiction at the end. (Warning: there are descriptions/blurbs about the stories that can be considered spoilers.)

 

http://www.dianagabaldon.com/books/chronology-of-the-outlander-series/

[tallyrand]

I like this book a lot.  I even liked LJG in this book (I find him boring in later books), and I especially enjoy the beginnings of his relationship with Claire which I find more interesting than his relationship with Jamie.  Also the scenes with Willie are wonderful.  One thing I always loved was Claire's reaction to finding out about Willie and being vaguely jealous on Bree's behalf.  It's not a noble sentiment, but it struck me as such a real emotion to feel in that situation.  I also love grown-up Fergus and seeing Ian Sr. again.  

 

One thing that always bothered me though was after Claire leaves Jamie when she finds out about his remarriage and Ian goes after her to bring her back.  Jamie is hallucinating and is so happy to see her, but then finds out she's real and acts like an ass.  Anyway, I always hated his reaction there, and I seem to recall he never actually apologizes for not telling her he was married! It was really crappy of him to sleep with Claire without telling her.  I enjoy mostly everything else about this book, but Jamie's reaction here always annoyed me. Did anyone else feel the same?

[tcay]

I read the two with Jamie and they don't really affect the big book plots. I think reading the LJ novels helps more for the later big books, when LJ has a bigger presence, particularly in books 7 and 8. (But I haven't read his other novellas, just get really confused whenever I encounter his relatives).

[chocolatetruffle]

I just finished book 4.  Should I read the Lord John Grey books and novellas before I go on to book 5?

I don't think you need to because IIRC he's not even in it.  But I've only read through book 5 (my personal fav), so there may be some implication that I missed.  I will say that I loved the story and haven't read any LJG books yet.

 

ETA: or what tcay said.

Edited June 3, 2015 by chocolatetruffle