Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[RealHousewife]

I thought the subject merited its own topic since people are often passionately for or against feminism.

Some go by the definition of feminism, which is simply "the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes." The vast majority of women and men are fans of the earlier waves of feminism, but many folks don't want to be associated with some of the current activists. What do you all think? 

 

[WinnieWinkle]

I've been a feminist since grade 7.  A lot of the issues women faced back then have been somewhat resolved now.  We may have come a long way baby but we've still got a long way to go.  To me my take on feminism is summed up this way "we will have true equality when a woman no longer needs to be twice as good as a man in order to get half as far".

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, WinnieWinkle said:

I've been a feminist since grade 7.  A lot of the issues women faced back then have been somewhat resolved now.  We may have come a long way baby but we've still got a long way to go.  To me my take on feminism is summed up this way "we will have true equality when a woman no longer needs to be twice as good as a man in order to get half as far".

Same here. I've been a feminist since I hit puberty. So are all of the other women in my family. And guess what? We're all happily married mothers with careers. This idea that feminists are all man hating shrews is an urban legend.

[Bastet]

Being a feminist is fundamental to who I am; I'm a woman, so I'm a feminist.  (Not that men aren't feminists, too, but as a woman living in a patriarchy, how in the world would I not say yes to the "belief in and advocacy of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes expressed especially through organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests"?)  I was in high school when I had my "click" moment, and I've been a feminist activist ever since.  In college, I minored in gender studies, and I went on to become a civil rights lawyer, specializing in women's rights.

[JustHereForFood]

I consider myself a feminist. I admit that I am not familiar with all the history and specific waves as I probably should, but that doesn't keep me from understanding that feminism is about equal rights for everyone, not about hating men, as some people who don't like us proclaim.

Regarding some individuals who make a bad name for the rest of us, it is sad, but I don't think that it should make the rest of us ashamed to call ourselves feminists out of fear to be associated with them, but on the contrary, we should all be proud of the term, to show everyone what it really represents.

[peacheslatour]

40 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I consider myself a feminist. I admit that I am not familiar with all the history and specific waves as I probably should, but that doesn't keep me from understanding that feminism is about equal rights for everyone, not about hating men, as some people who don't like us proclaim.

Regarding some individuals who make a bad name for the rest of us, it is sad, but I don't think that it should make the rest of us ashamed to call ourselves feminists out of fear to be associated with them, but on the contrary, we should all be proud of the term, to show everyone what it really represents.

I agree. Some vocal talking heads have tried to co-opt feminism for their own gains but that doesn't change our core beliefs of equality for all genders and respect for all people.

[RealHousewife]

8 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Same here. I've been a feminist since I hit puberty. So are all of the other women in my family. And guess what? We're all happily married mothers with careers. This idea that feminists are all man hating shrews is an urban legend.

Feminist haters always describe feminists this way! When I've defended feminists, I've been told "they wouldn't like you because you're so feminine, love dresses, and don't hate men." Um, what? I don't think most of them really care how I dress or what my interests are. When one man found out I considered myself a feminist, he said he hoped I wasn't offended when he called me a "pretty girl." Maybe that might make some women uncomfortable, but I appreciate respectful compliments and girl only offends me if it's said in a patronizing kind of way. I also do not get offended if a man "checks me out" so long as he doesn't stare. I have experienced harassment in my life, and I do not jump to label everything a MeToo situation.

Speaking more about clothing, I think the exact attitude would depend on the feminist, just like it would depend on any person. I don't think it's wrong for a woman to dress sexy for example. I hate when women want to look nice that it has to be about men or catering to what they want. I am also not the type of feminist who thinks I'm oppressed if I can't go topless. I think I'm as good as any man, but I am aware our bodies are different. (No offense if anyone here has a different opinion, not trying to stop others.) What's important to me are reproductive rights and safety. It's so sad that women don't even walk as much because we're so scared of being harmed. I want workplaces to make it easier for moms who want to work. There are many ways to do this other than extended leave too. I think there should be more part-time jobs that work around school schedules, more flexible jobs in general, more work from home jobs, jobs that can be put on hold for awhile, etc. 

Some men say if you're a feminist, men shouldn't pay for dates. I struggle with this too. I kind of hate the whole men paying for dates thing because sadly so many men think if they pay for a meal, you owe them something. I do find men who like to pay to be better quality men. I also think as much as women have to pay for everything from hygiene products to getting dolled up, paying for a meal is nothing. It's actually much cheaper than what even a low maintenance woman spends getting ready for a date. Even though I am so girly and feminine, sometimes I wish I were a man and could just shower and go. The amount of time spent on the hair on our heads, removing hair from everywhere else, getting nails done, makeup, different treatments if we can afford it, it's so much. Sometimes I think women should be paid MORE than men. lol 

I think it's nice if a man holds the door open for me. I always hold the door for others as well, man or woman. I look at it as more of a politeness thing. I know men who say they've been confronted by women over holding the door open. "I can open a door myself!" I can't picture the vast majority of women being rude over someone holding a door. Even though I have some traditional beliefs, I do think a man walking all the way around a car to open my door for me is silly. It doesn't take physical strength to open a car door. 

One of the feminist men I know (who also advocates for top free rights) isn't the kind of man who helps women with heavy things. You have to ask him. Again, while we're equal, our bodies are just different. I do get annoyed by his attitude because his idea of equal is that we're the exact same. No, no we're not. Men are on average so much stronger. Even men of smaller stature can usually have an easier time carrying bottled water at the grocery store and whatnot. I am not offended by men offering to help. I always appreciate it. It's not infantilizing me. It's being helpful and a gentleman. 

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I agree. Some vocal talking heads have tried to co-opt feminism for their own gains but that doesn't change our core beliefs of equality for all genders and respect for all people.

It's always the more radical people of any movement who get the most attention. An intelligent feminist who wants to make the world a better place for all people just isn't as great for TV ratings I guess. A lot of people hate the term "toxic masculinity," and they don't like that feminists made it a thing. Even toxic masculinity hurts men too. There's so much pressure on men to be tough and hide their pain. This is what can lead to toxic behavior. 

5 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I consider myself a feminist. I admit that I am not familiar with all the history and specific waves as I probably should, but that doesn't keep me from understanding that feminism is about equal rights for everyone, not about hating men, as some people who don't like us proclaim.

Regarding some individuals who make a bad name for the rest of us, it is sad, but I don't think that it should make the rest of us ashamed to call ourselves feminists out of fear to be associated with them, but on the contrary, we should all be proud of the term, to show everyone what it really represents.

That was kind of me too for awhile. I've become more educated, but I'm still trying to learn. 

I don't want to be associated with people who have vastly different views from me, but then I also hate to distance myself from the term because I sort of feel like it's a slap in the face of so many of hardworking feminists who paved the way for women of today.

5 hours ago, Bastet said:

Being a feminist is fundamental to who I am; I'm a woman, so I'm a feminist.  (Not that men aren't feminists, too, but as a woman living in a patriarchy, how in the world would I not say yes to the "belief in and advocacy of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes expressed especially through organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests"?)  I was in high school when I had my "click" moment, and I've been a feminist activist ever since.  In college, I minored in gender studies, and I went on to become a civil rights lawyer, specializing in women's rights.

Way to go! 👏

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by RealHousewife

[Anela]

I think that I've been a feminist since I was around five or six. When I saw the way that some men would treat women (and cause trouble between them, getting an ego boost when the girlfriend/wife chose them over their family and friends). Also after a man like that almost killed me. I remember seeing what was going on, and thinking, "That won't be me. I won't let a man come between me and my sister, or the rest of my family".  One man tried to do it with my mum, another was an uncle who cheated on, and was at least verbally abusive to one aunt. He also hit on my mum, and another aunt. I remember him telling my aunt, "If she [mum] wasn't here, things would be fine." So we were banned from her house for a while, but it was never fine. My sister's husband hit on me, more than once, caused trouble. We have no relationship, because she didn't make the same decision that I did, when I was little. 

The reasons have grown, as I've learned more, and experienced more myself. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Anela

[Gramto6]

I think I have been a closet feminist since the early 70's when DD was born. For her whole life I told he she could do and be anything she really wanted. She was a soccer star in high school, went on to college playing soccer then on to Law school where she graduated in the top 5% of her class. She retains her membership in the CA Bar and is acting Police Chief in a major Northern CA city. She and her wife have 3 of the most amazing children! I don't know if she would consider herself a feminist, but she is her own person with no regrets. She does it her way which makes me so proud of the woman she has become.

[supposebly]

I'm a feminist. I don't know how I couldn't be since I am a woman. It's my human right to be equal to any man. Since that's not the case, I am a feminist.

I think I've been a feminist before I knew what that was when I started wondering about the women in the New Testament. All 2 of them. One an unachievable role model (Mary) and a "fallen woman" (Magdalene). Such representation! I must have been 8 or 9, the year before First Communion.

Questioning Catholizism was the beginning of me becoming a feminist. There obviously was no place there for someone like me.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I'm a feminist. I don't know how I couldn't be since I am a woman. It's my human right to be equal to any man. Since that's not the case, I am a feminist.

Well said.

Edited July 8, 2021 by peacheslatour

[Bastet]

17 hours ago, supposebly said:

I'm a feminist. I don't know how I couldn't be since I am a woman. It's my human right to be equal to any man. Since that's not the case, I am a feminist.

This is why I don't understand "I'm not a feminist, but [espouses feminist opinion]" folks. 

"I'm a feminist, but I don't agree with many in the movement who feel X" or "I'm a feminist, but white, straight, cisgender, economically secure, and able-bodied women still have work to do acknowledging their privilege and addressing intersectionality; this movement cannot succeed for all women until everyone has a seat at the table and our differences are as examined as our shared experiences" I completely understand - it's natural, and necessary. 

But "I'm not a feminist, but I believe in the social, political, and economic equality of women" doesn't compute.  And it really ticks me off when I can tell it's because of a desire not to be associated with the "feminazi" caricature; don't accept the patriarchy's lies!

[PRgal]

By definition, sure!  But I have been shamed by so-called activists for being slightly more on the old fashioned side and even by a few gals who criticized me for actually liking underwire bras (for example).  Ummm, underwire push-ups make me feel more like an…adult (though at almost 42, I don’t really have to worry about that anymore.  It’s probably psychological, but people thought I was a high school student for a really long time.  And I’m convinced HR people didn’t see me as “mature” throughout most of my 20s).  I’ve also tried to bring up other ways of looking at pay equity/breaking the glass ceiling (e.g. how men need to take advantage of parental leave (which is, in Canada, almost always taken entirely by the woman.  So if you take the entire year rather than splitting the parental leave part with your partner, then you’re a year behind your career. Two kids?  Two years.  And add the whole unpaid labour issue.  Guys need to do more of that).  Many just brush me off. 

[BlackberryJam]

Perhaps I'm turned off by the title, "Do you consider yourself..." I would never word it that way. It feels like too much of a qualification. I am a feminist. My experience of people who use the phrasing "Do you consider yourself" are people who think there is something negative or shameful about being a feminist. 

I'm an oldie, but again, just my experience, feminists strive to celebrate, advance and support women. They aren't criticizing, degrading or judging women for their choices in career, clothing, procreation, or what food they choose to eat. (I separate this from celebrity snarking, because that's just fun. I'm sorry celebrity who will never read this, but if you wear a garment that looks like you yanked it out of a trash compactor and stuck it to you with electrical tape, I'm gonna mock.)

I'm sorry if anyone has had negative experiences with people like that, but I would describe those people as "people who consider themselves feminists" v. actually being feminists. It seems like people who do that want to cloak themselves in the language rather than embody the ideal.

And you know, I'm always down with #FuckThePatriarchy. I keep promising to buy my male friends t-shirts with that on it for us to all wear on vacation. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by BlackberryJam
Typo

[PRgal]

23 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Perhaps I'm turned off by the title, "Do you consider yourself..." I would never word it that way. It feels like too much of a qualification. I am a feminist. My experience of people who use the phrasing "Do you consider yourself" are people who thing there is something negative or shameful about being a feminist. 

I'm an oldie, but again, just my experience, feminists strive to celebrate, advance and support women. They aren't criticizing, degrading or judging women for their choices in career, clothing, procreation, or what food they choose to eat. (I separate this from celebrity snarking, because that's just fun. I'm sorry celebrity who will never read this, but if you wear a garment that looks like you yanked it out of a trash compactor and stuck it to you with electrical tape, I'm gonna mock.)

I'm sorry if anyone has had negative experiences with people like that, but I would describe those people as "people who consider themselves feminists" v. actually being feminists. It seems like people who do that want to cloak themselves in the language rather than embody the ideal.

And you know, I'm always down with #FuckThePatriarchy. I keep promising to buy my male friends t-shirts with that on it for us to all wear on vacation. 

But at the same time, there are tons of “feminists” who seem to go out of the way to shame others.  Like those who “claim” that their views of eating plans and body image are positive (as in what you want, whenever you want) aren’t really out there to criticize those who choose to eat healthfully and who exercise.  As if they’re alm “dieting and trying to fit into a certain standard of beauty.  Trust me, I feel it.  And the “eat what you want, whenever” philosophy should be “eat what you want, but be smart about it.”  

[BlackberryJam]

8 minutes ago, PRgal said:

But at the same time, there are tons of “feminists” who seem to go out of the way to shame others.  Like those who “claim” that their views of eating plans and body image are positive (as in what you want, whenever you want) aren’t really out there to criticize those who choose to eat healthfully and who exercise.  As if they’re alm “dieting and trying to fit into a certain standard of beauty.  Trust me, I feel it.  And the “eat what you want, whenever” philosophy should be “eat what you want, but be smart about it.”  

I don't know any actual feminists who do that. Those sound like lifestyle gurus in a moneymaking enterprise rather than people espousing a belief. 

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I don't know any actual feminists who do that. Those sound like lifestyle gurus in a moneymaking enterprise rather than people espousing a belief. 

I don't either. The people I know who consider themselves feminists don't really feel any need to announce it. It shows by their actions, how they raise their kids and how they treat other people.

[PRgal]

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I don't know any actual feminists who do that. Those sound like lifestyle gurus in a moneymaking enterprise rather than people espousing a belief. 

 

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I don't either. The people I know who consider themselves feminists don't really feel any need to announce it. It shows by their actions, how they raise their kids and how they treat other people.

Perhaps I need to spend less time on social media.  Or stop following people who I consider are on the extreme left (I am, from a Canadian definition, anyway, a bit centre-right).  

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

But at the same time, there are tons of “feminists” who seem to go out of the way to shame others.  

Where are you encountering these tons of people, in real life or as screen names on a social media account?  That's not remotely my experience, so I'm curious.

[PRgal]

7 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Where are you encountering these tons of people, in real life or as screen names on a social media account?  That's not remotely my experience, so I'm curious.

Real life?  A women’s studies class I took 20+ years ago plus several “ladies” in DE&I/diversity training sessions.  Also, one of my high school teachers was like that.  Said teacher is (was now?  She probably cancelled me after seeing several of my posts…LOL!) a Facebook friend.  As for social media handles, I’m unsure if they’re their real names or not.  Many are writers/bloggers in the fashion/lifestyle world (I used to be a fashion/food blogger). 

[Bastet]

4 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Real life?  A women’s studies class I took 20+ years ago plus several “ladies” in DE&I/diversity training sessions.  Also, one of my high school teachers was like that.

Well, that doesn't sound like "tons" of feminists to me, such that the movement at large can be accused of a practice of shaming.

[PRgal]

3 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Well, that doesn't sound like "tons" of feminists to me, such that the movement at large can be accused of a practice of shaming.

Okay, fine, not "tons," but I still haven't found a "safe" space for me there or in the diversity/inclusion world.  I've been called "racist" more than once.  I won't explain here, since it isn't the place.  There's a reason why I started my own podcast.

[RealHousewife]

5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Perhaps I'm turned off by the title, "Do you consider yourself..." I would never word it that way. It feels like too much of a qualification. I am a feminist. My experience of people who use the phrasing "Do you consider yourself" are people who think there is something negative or shameful about being a feminist. 

To each his own. I worded it that way because a lot of women do not consider themselves feminists. I consider myself one, but I respect people who don't and want their perspectives as well. I don't immediately assume they must not care about equality. I always enjoy hearing the opinions of those who think differently from me because it helps me learn. 

[peacheslatour]

11 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

To each his own. I worded it that way because a lot of women do not consider themselves feminists. I consider myself one, but I respect people who don't and want their perspectives as well. I don't immediately assume they must not care about equality. I always enjoy hearing the opinions of those who think differently from me because it helps me learn. 

I have no problem with the way it's worded.

[ParadoxLost]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

Where are you encountering these tons of people, in real life or as screen names on a social media account?  That's not remotely my experience, so I'm curious.

I don't know that I can say that I've seen feminists overtly and intentionally women shaming other women.  But I can say that I think that the way the feminists that push policy and participate in feminist groups (at my workplace) have a large portion (or maybe small but more vocal portion) that seem to have a lack of comprehension of unintended consequences and that others may have a perspective that is also valid and not anti-feminist.

What I've noticed lately is a focus on those that have been left behind or have not made as much progress.  Driven mostly by women who have had success in their endeavors and want to lend a hand to other woman.  Not a bad thing.  Well intentioned and laudable.   

But they are not careful in their speech and actions out of confidence in the rightness of every word they utter and every action they take.  There have been a couple times that I thought the way things were done/presented was at various points bordering on sexist, demeaning to their own gender, and dangerously undermining confidence.

 

 

[PRgal]

30 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I don't know that I can say that I've seen feminists overtly and intentionally women shaming other women.  But I can say that I think that the way the feminists that push policy and participate in feminist groups (at my workplace) have a large portion (or maybe small but more vocal portion) that seem to have a lack of comprehension of unintended consequences and that others may have a perspective that is also valid and not anti-feminist.

What I've noticed lately is a focus on those that have been left behind or have not made as much progress.  Driven mostly by women who have had success in their endeavors and want to lend a hand to other woman.  Not a bad thing.  Well intentioned and laudable.   

But they are not careful in their speech and actions out of confidence in the rightness of every word they utter and every action they take.  There have been a couple times that I thought the way things were done/presented was at various points bordering on sexist, demeaning to their own gender, and dangerously undermining confidence.

 

 

The problem with that is they also start assuming.  Personally, I've had women attack me for "centring" (being too focused on oneself/self-centred, I believe) and not "thinking" of others, etc.  Actually I WAS thinking of other people - thinking about different ways to make, say, family and work dynamics work.  It seems that to many, as soon as I bring up male partners (as in husbands, not work partners), they'll want me to shut up.  These people have a very "my way or the highway" philosophy.  Not good.  And that's why progress is slow.

[ratgirlagogo]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:39 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Perhaps I'm turned off by the title, "Do you consider yourself..." I would never word it that way. It feels like too much of a qualification. I am a feminist. My experience of people who use the phrasing "Do you consider yourself" are people who think there is something negative or shameful about being a feminist. 

I understand that, but I like the phrasing because it assumes as I do that one's political opinions should be a choice.  I am a feminist because having examined my own feelings and ideas I found that other people who shared my  feelings and ideas referred to themselves as feminists.  I was a philosophy major (ultimately - ha!) and  thus I'm always interested in the history of ideas, especially my own ideas.

I'm surprised that so few of you have experienced feminists fighting with each other.  I sure have.  The whole ugly fight between the straight and lesbian feminists in the 70's and 80's, for example,  is so well documented.  Or the clashes over sex work and pornography.  Not to mention race and class.

Edited July 11, 2021 by ratgirlagogo
clarification

[PRgal]

 

10 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

I'm surprised that so few of you have experienced feminists fighting with each other.  I sure have.  The whole ugly fight between the straight and lesbian feminists in the 70's and 80's, for example,  is so well documented.  Or the clashes over sex work and pornography.  Not to mention race and class.

I totally agree!  Because that’s exactly what I get!  

[peacheslatour]

The feminist communities I frequent are about supporting each other, reproductive rights and finding resources for abused women and children. There is no infighting, just kindness.

[BlackberryJam]

32 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

The feminist communities I frequent are about supporting each other, reproductive rights and finding resources for abused women and children. There is no infighting, just kindness.

Sure, there were factions is the 70s and 80s, but that was 30+ years ago. Feminist spaces are about support, but they will circle the wagons when invaded by agitators.  Women supporting women is a core value of feminism.

[supposebly]

Let's face it, even feminists can be assholes. I don't know why we should have to be better people than men or what we might consider non-feminists. That feeds right into that perfectionism trap that many women fall into. I do think that's where the judgemental parts come from. And I do think being more judgmental about what a feminist is supposed to be may be an age thing. At least, when I was younger, I was a lot more judgmental than I am now.

People who don't think of themselves as feminist can be supportive people. And what some people think to be feminism is different from other people's feminism. 

At the end, it's a label that we put on but it's as diverse as it should be. As long as in the end, we get gender equality in every sense. And even what that means has shifted over time. What I find difficult is if it's considered an insult. It really really shouldn't be.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

At the end, it's a label that we put on but it's as diverse as it should be. As long as in the end, we get gender equality in every sense. And even what that means has shifted over time. What I find difficult is if it's considered an insult. It really really shouldn't be.

Absolutely. As long as the goal is gender equality and human dignity, the rest is just a distraction.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, supposebly said:

Let's face it, even feminists can be assholes. I don't know why we should have to be better people than men or what we might consider non-feminists. That feeds right into that perfectionism trap that many women fall into. I do think that's where the judgemental parts come from. And I do think being more judgmental about what a feminist is supposed to be may be an age thing. At least, when I was younger, I was a lot more judgmental than I am now.

People who don't think of themselves as feminist can be supportive people. And what some people think to be feminism is different from other people's feminism. 

At the end, it's a label that we put on but it's as diverse as it should be. As long as in the end, we get gender equality in every sense. And even what that means has shifted over time. What I find difficult is if it's considered an insult. It really really shouldn't be.

The problem is, the communities I frequent which bring up "intersectional feminism" still don't offer enough safe spaces, especially when someone brings up cultural clashes between children of immigrants and their parents (and, often, grandparents) or linguistic challenges many women face (and this includes English-speaking children of immigrants because they often lack the vocabulary of their ancestral languages to properly communicate with family and vice-versa).  This is really surprising, even when I come across women from large, urban communities where there are many immigrants from non-English speaking countries.

[Bastet]

There have always been and always will be disagreements over what stance on any given issue is the best for women.  There should be.  Women who belong to another oppressed group - race, gender identity, sexual orientation, class, etc. - will, unfortunately, probably always have to bang their fists to get majority women to not just step back and listen to intersectional realities, but stop treating those experiences as sectarian, to be dealt with later while the movement concentrates on the so-called universal, but which really means white, issues.  This is a sad reality in every progressive movement, like how women are sidelined by men in every one other than feminism; members of a dominant group always center their own experiences, and need to be continually called out for that myopic view.

And there will always be assholes - because, being made up of humans, there are assholes in every group - who engage in petty grievances that distract from the common cause.  The issue raised and questioned was widespread shaming over stuff like food choices, and that's never been part of either my lived experience or study of feminism.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

There have always been and always will be disagreements over what stance on any given issue is the best for women.  There should be.  Women who belong to another oppressed group - race, gender identity, sexual orientation, class, etc. - will, unfortunately, probably always have to bang their fists to get majority women to not just step back and listen to intersectional realities, but stop treating those experiences as sectarian, to be dealt with later while the movement concentrates on the so-called universal, but which really means white, issues.  This is a sad reality in every progressive movement, like how women are sidelined by men in every one other than feminism; members of a dominant group always center their own experiences, and need to be continually called out for that myopic view.

And there will always be assholes - because, being made up of humans, there are assholes in every group - who engage in petty grievances that distract from the common cause.  The issue raised and questioned was widespread shaming over stuff like food choices, and that's never been part of either my lived experience or study of feminism.

The so-called "oppressed groups" - mostly minority women in my case - are usually the most hostile towards me, actually.  I don't want to get into it too much (other than them not seeing me as "one of them," despite being non-white), since it isn't the place, so anyone who wants to know can message me.  Personally, I'm uncomfortable being seen as "oppressed."  

[Guest]

On 7/11/2021 at 9:06 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Sure, there were factions is the 70s and 80s, but that was 30+ years ago. Feminist spaces are about support, but they will circle the wagons when invaded by agitators.  Women supporting women is a core value of feminism.

The problem I have seen is that sometimes those wagons circle against people who are not as progressive as the majority or who are tentatively trying to figure out exactly what they believe. I have backed out of spaces even when I agree with the majority because it felt overly aggressive to any form of dissent. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Guest

[peacheslatour]

Are we still talking about feminism? I will always be a feminist. I have a long history of treatment that was 100% due to me being female. I was catcalled at nine, men tried to get me into their cars at eleven, I was groped by one of my parents friend's at twelve, raped at fifteen and sexually harassed in every job I've ever had. If it weren't for the strides made by feminists, there would be little to no recourse for any of those things. Thank you to the brave women who came before me.

[RealHousewife]

22 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Are we still talking about feminism? I will always be a feminist. I have a long history of treatment that was 100% due to me being female. I was catcalled at nine, men tried to get me into their cars at eleven, I was groped by one of my parents friend's at twelve, raped at fifteen and sexually harassed in every job I've ever had. If it weren't for the strides made by feminists, there would be little to no recourse for any of those things. Thank you to the brave women who came before me.

Ugh, I'm so sorry PEACHES. *hug*

[peacheslatour]

14 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

Ugh, I'm so sorry PEACHES. *hug*

Thank you. Hey, we're all in this together, my experience is in no way unique.

[JustHereForFood]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Hey, we're all in this together, my experience is in no way unique.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. Sadly, you are right about that not being unique, as I keep hearing such stories from other women. There has been a lot of awareness lately, but there is still such a long way to go. 

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

That's because they don't think.  They'll grow up and mellow.  I hope, anyway.  At least that's what happened with my parents' generation (baby boomers)!!  And yes, @peacheslatour, we're still talking about feminism (I'm also very sorry about what happened to you) - the aggressiveness I and many others I know have experienced comes from all sorts of so-called diversity/inclusion groups.  I can go on about the issues regarding my old high school, but I'll hold off.  Not the place.

Sadly, lot of people are assholes, regardless of what groups/demographics they belong to. Minorities, or people that are progressive are no exception, even though they are sometimes held to a higher standard. Personally, I don't think that feminists should act aggresively to other women (or to men, either), but I get that some people feel very strongly about some of the issues that affect them, especially if they affect their day to day lives in a negative way and can react strongly when discussing them.

Which raises an interesting question for me. Is it better if online spaces for people (in this case feminists) get more separated to groups that have more in common with each other and therefore people in those may feel safer, or more heard among others like them (for example women of color that are minorities in their countries, LGBT+ people, abused women, women raising children, etc.), or would it be better to try to keep one unified group that would represent everyone and try to focus on all issues? Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm not trying to say it can't be both, as both have their positives, more like what might be the balance.

[PRgal]

9 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I'm so sorry this happened to you. Sadly, you are right about that not being unique, as I keep hearing such stories from other women. There has been a lot of awareness lately, but there is still such a long way to go. 

Sadly, lot of people are assholes, regardless of what groups/demographics they belong to. Minorities, or people that are progressive are no exception, even though they are sometimes held to a higher standard. Personally, I don't think that feminists should act aggresively to other women (or to men, either), but I get that some people feel very strongly about some of the issues that affect them, especially if they affect their day to day lives in a negative way and can react strongly when discussing them.

Which raises an interesting question for me. Is it better if online spaces for people (in this case feminists) get more separated to groups that have more in common with each other and therefore people in those may feel safer, or more heard among others like them (for example women of color that are minorities in their countries, LGBT+ people, abused women, women raising children, etc.), or would it be better to try to keep one unified group that would represent everyone and try to focus on all issues? Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm not trying to say it can't be both, as both have their positives, more like what might be the balance.

But what happens if they don't feel accepted in a space that is supposed to be representative to them?  For some communities, you get into linguistic differences, generational differences, etc...I can start a group for English-speaking Chinese Canadian moms brought up in middle class households in interfaith marriages and STILL have differences.  

[MadyGirl1987]

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

Which raises an interesting question for me. Is it better if online spaces for people (in this case feminists) get more separated to groups that have more in common with each other and therefore people in those may feel safer, or more heard among others like them (for example women of color that are minorities in their countries, LGBT+ people, abused women, women raising children, etc.), or would it be better to try to keep one unified group that would represent everyone and try to focus on all issues? Does anyone have any thoughts? I'm not trying to say it can't be both, as both have their positives, more like what might be the balance.

I tend to think it would help to have a bigger more unified inclusive group because 1. Strength in numbers and 2. A bigger more diverse group would give a bigger more accurate view of what the issues are and all of the different things different woman face. Splitting off into factions risks smaller ones getting overlooked. With a bigger more unified group, there is the opportunity for the more underrepresented experiences to be heard and given voice to with the help of the whole.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MadyGirl1987 said:

I tend to think it would help to have a bigger more unified inclusive group because 1. Strength in numbers and 2. A bigger more diverse group would give a bigger more accurate view of what the issues are and all of the different things different woman face. Splitting off into factions risks smaller ones getting overlooked. With a bigger more unified group, there is the opportunity for the more underrepresented experiences to be heard and given voice to with the help of the whole.

I agree. Smaller groups tend to become too insular and become echo chambers. 

[festivus]

Personal politics are still not allowed as per the site wide policy. Posts have been removed.

[BlackberryJam]

19 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Thank you. Hey, we're all in this together, my experience is in no way unique.

@peacheslatour I feel for you. Your experience was awful. 

I wanted to comment on the bolded part and say YES. In any group of women, I just assume all of us have been either sexually assaulted or sexually harassed. I don't think, "Oh, it's just one in four," I think "Of those four, one realized it and is able to talk about it and the other three just aren't ready yet." It's sad that your experience is not unique when it should be.

I was at dinner with a group of friends a few weeks ago and mentioned I was skipping an upcoming large family get-together. I was asked why I was skipping and answered frankly, "Because Cousin X will be there and he molested me when I was 4 and he was 12." All the women in the group just nodded and kept eating, not because they knew, but because they weren't surprised. The men were shocked and I actually got asked, "What did he do, I mean, did he really molest you or was he just playing?" *big sigh*

That's what I like about groups of women and why I value my female friends. They have an underlying base of shared experience that men just don't have. The women also understood that I wasn't going to go confront Cousin X, I wasn't looking for prosecution of Cousin X and I have no plans to destroy Cousin X's life. At the same time, I never, ever want to see him again. I also wasn't about to burst into tears about it. It happened. I'm not going to ever deny that it happened, but it's not the defining event of my life and it isn't even something I think about every day. 

peaches, I appreciate your strength in acknowledging your experience and the experience of other women. That's something I truly appreciate about feminism.

I thank the women that came before me because they've helped create places where it's safe for me to acknowledge my experiences. Hopefully, I'll do something to make things better for the women who come after me. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I thank the women that came before me because they've helped create places where it's safe for me to acknowledge my experiences. Hopefully, I'll do something to make things better for the women who come after me. 

Thank you. This is why I talk about it so frankly. It happened and I can't change that but I can be an advocate for other women so they don't feel so alone. I think we should talk about things like this as openly as we can. We don't need to be ashamed, the people who victimized us should feel the full force of the reality of their actions.

[BlackberryJam]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

Thank you. This is why I talk about it so frankly. It happened and I can't change that but I can be an advocate for other women so they don't feel so alone. I think we should talk about things like this as openly as we can. We don't need to be ashamed, the people who victimized us should feel the full force of the reality of their actions.

Just quoting this because it’s important.

[JustHereForFood]

5 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Just quoting this because it’s important.

I'm so sorry about your experience. And indeed quoted for truth, I wish I could like these posts more than once.

[peacheslatour]

I just saw an interesting idea. I know a lot of us are not looking forward to removing our masks and once again hearing the dreaded "Smile!" From now on, if some creep tells them to smile, they are going to look them dead in the eye and say "Dance."

Edited July 18, 2021 by peacheslatour

[RealHousewife]

What are everyone's thoughts about equal pay? 

There are multiple factors at play when it comes to women earning less. Do you all think this is still a big issue? If so, what should be done?

One thing that really annoys me is even if we earn as much, it costs more to be a woman. There's our hygiene products. Our basic grooming products cost more. Then we spend more just trying to present ourselves the way society wants us to. No, no one forces us to get plastic surgery or wear designer clothes. But the cost of pads, tampons, hair removal, basic makeup, nail care, it's so much money throughout our lives. It also takes a lot of energy and time if you want to be very well-groomed.