S03:E04 Take Me to Church

[Hiyo]

Don’t forget Rock Hudson, who passed away in 1985. Though in his case, despite his fame, being gay definitely wouldn’t change people’s minds about the disease.

[SailorGirl]

1 hour ago, mtlchick said:

Here's the kicker: Billy didn't tell the cast and crew about his status until they were done filming the series.  So imagine being the writer thinking "I know Billy can pull this off" without KNOWING this was possibly Billy's biggest fear, even with the advances in the HIV cocktails.  

I'm glad that he got his emotional release.  

That said, the Vernon thing was fine until Vernon swore up and down he would show up and I was like "NO.  You're lying, stop it right now."  

I got the impression from the article that he is a contributing writer, and thus was able to work a lot of his real life into the character of Pray. I can't imagine this episode had that many coincidental similarities. The other writers may not have known it was his real life story he was contributing but he did and it was cathartic for him. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by SailorGirl
grammar matters

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 5/18/2021 at 10:07 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As sweet as it was to hear Vernon eagerly offer to come to New York, I knew he wouldn't end up going. It felt cruel for him to get Pray's hopes even the tiniest bit that it might happen. Ebony, on the other hand, whew. I don't know how someone can be in such denial while so bluntly telling the truth. "I know you two were fucking in high school so can you please tell me how to make him want to sleep with me even though he is TOTALLY NOT GAY?"

Thank goodness that Aunt Jada was so kind to him from the beginning. Otherwise I would have been giving her some serious side eye when she offered to be his power of attorney. I hope that she keeps her word and follows his wishes to the letter.

I don't think planning to skip out on your wife and kids is sweet at all. To me, it's cowardly.  Neither he nor his wife should have to stay in a marriage that makes them miserable, but running off with a lover is not the answer. That would be terrible for the kids, at the very least. 

Also, a POA needs to be notarized, or it's worthless.  I agree it would serm to make more sense for a close friend like Blanca to hold power of attorney, but his aunt is right that especially back then, people would be more likely to honor a POA if it is held by a so-called "respectable" relative.

On 5/19/2021 at 2:42 PM, tennisgurl said:

She seems supportive of him and never tried to judge him for being who he is, and also seems to relate to him being an outcast from the church, as she is apparently divorced and had a child out of wedlock. 

With a married man!

I had always assumed that "Pray Tell" was a name he had chosen for himself,  but apparently his mother named him "Prayer"!

Edited May 23, 2021 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Blakeston]

On 5/18/2021 at 3:21 PM, RealReality said:

You remember it and I clearly don't.  Was everyone convinced he was going to die?   

I was a kid at the time, but I remember everyone around me (young and old) assuming that he had very little time left.

[RealReality]

On 5/20/2021 at 6:31 AM, Blakeston said:

I was a kid at the time, but I remember everyone around me (young and old) assuming that he had very little time left.

That's so interesting.   I really couldn't remember bit it makes sense.  

A few HIV moments stuck with me.  Magic, Arthur ashe, that poor child, Ryan who got it after a transfusion.  

And years later I watched the HBO movie about Gia, the model and how she died of AIDS.  

Highly recommend the movie if you can find it.  A young Angelina Jolie was a tour de force.  

I wonder if they are going to revisit the OJ trial?

[gatopretoNYC]

On 5/19/2021 at 11:29 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I had always assumed that Pray Tell" was a name he had chosen for himself,  but apparently his mother named him "Prayer"!

She calls him by his full name, Prayerful.

12 hours ago, RealReality said:

And years later I watched the HBO movie about Gia, the model and how she died of AIDS.  

Highly recommend the movie if you can find it.  A young Angelina Jolie was a tour de force.

Such a sad film. I just checked, and Gia is available on HBOMax.

[mtlchick]

On 5/18/2021 at 3:21 PM, RealReality said:

With the exception of Arthur ashe I don't remember another case at the time of a high profile, straight male contracting HIV.  

Sadly, I think for many people that kinda "legitimized" the disease.  Because it wasn't just gay men, or some poor straight women who got it from their closeted husbands.

You remember it and I clearly don't.  Was everyone convinced he was going to die?   

I was too young to know who Rock Hudson was and Liberace I may have heard a short clip. 

 

But Ryan White?  I completely remember.  I was 12 at the time and I think he was 18 when he passed.  (And I sort of wished that the show mentioned him in passing just to demonstrate that AIDS was spreading outside of the gay community and not just by sex.)  Years later I found his biography at my school library and kept on reading it. He and Magic Johnson were the two that got me learning about HIV/AIDS.  

[Nialla]

On 5/18/2021 at 9:07 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Thank goodness that Aunt Jada was so kind to him from the beginning. Otherwise I would have been giving her some serious side eye when she offered to be his power of attorney. I hope that she keeps her word and follows his wishes to the letter.

If the show had more time, it would have been nice for Aunt Jada to visit his found family in NYC. Not just because Aunt Jada vs. Elektra would automatically be iconic, but to make it clear that she's leaving the details to them because they deserve that right, but she knows if it's not a family member on the POA, then it's easier for someone else in the family to fight it.

I think his mother would like to think she'd let him go in the way he wanted, but it's far too easy to fall back on your faith and tradition. Would she fight her own sister in court though? Probably not. In the midst of grief, fighting people she considers strangers is on the table.

Not sure how it is in NY, but you can write a will without an attorney, witnesses, or it being notarized in some states, but without at least one of those things, it's more open to challenge. Pretty sure a POA has to have at least two witnesses or be notarized. So what Pray signed isn't technically legal, but might be enough to at least keep any other family from trying to change things.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Pray comes clean:

 

[pasdetrois]

I am not religious, but I grew up in black and white southern churches with gospel music. It always lifts me.

So I loved this episode. What talent. I had not heard of Ledisi - astounding. The church hats, Billy's wardrobe...fabulous.

 

 

[aradia22]

I got stuck because I expected this to be a big emotional episode so I wanted to wait until I had the time to fully devote to it. 

I appreciated the choice to have the doctor not be rude but dispassionate. 

I don't know if there was too much music or the wrong music or if I wanted it to be strictly diegetic but it wasn't working for me until they got to the church. The soloists at rehearsal, the children's choir in the flashback... fantastic. Putting that 90's instrumentation on Billy's solo was a little silly but I guess they did put an electric piano and an electric guitar in the corner for... reasons.

They chose GREAT actresses for Pray Tell's family. I could have watched a whole show of Charlene, Aunt Viv (Janet), and Jackee. It did feel like a mini movie and almost like the script was overstuffed, but this show is rarely subtle in making its arguments. I don't know if it was intentional for the character, but Norm Lewis was very bland. Michelle Hurd's scene helped clarify that storyline but the emotion was undercut by how much it felt like a script. Maybe it would have worked better as theater rather than television. 

The scene with Pray Tell and his mom was the strongest of the episode. If there's one thing the show is good at, it's these parent/child scenes. I also loved the scene where Pray signed over power of attorney.

This show is consistently good on costuming but it was nice to see that outside of ballroom and even the glamour (e.g. Angel's modeling). The church outfits were perfect.

I do think there would have been something satisfying about Pray Tell reconnecting with his first love. The relationship with Ricky never really worked (partially because of the alcoholism) and it is part of his backstory that all his friends and lovers keep passing. But it always felt like too much of a fairytale even when they were selling it the most in the park scene.

[aradia22]

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That said, his honesty was better than sugarcoating it or giving him false hope. But there's a way to be honest without being completely devoid of compassion.

Yes, that's why I liked it. We didn't get a cartoon villain but you felt the lack of compassion.

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Let your aunt come, but give your power of attorney to Blanca or another member of your chosen queer family who is educated about hiv/aids and you know will follow your wishes to the t, not be cowed or convinced by religious/homophobic family members to do what they want instead. 

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Thank goodness that Aunt Jada was so kind to him from the beginning. Otherwise I would have been giving her some serious side eye when she offered to be his power of attorney. I hope that she keeps her word and follows his wishes to the letter.

Unless a surprise is coming in the finale, I think we were supposed to take it all at face value. It's easier for family to carry out his final wishes and his aunt really did want to make amends. I definitely think it was significant it was that character and not his mom or the choir aunt. She knew what it was like to be cast out. 

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That said, the Vernon thing was fine until Vernon swore up and down he would show up and I was like "NO.  You're lying, stop it right now."  

I don't know what they were doing with that. Maybe they just wanted to underscore that there wasn't going to be any fairytale romance (especially at the expense of those three adorable kids) but why show that memory leading up to the church steps? It wasn't just about chosen family either because his biological finally accepted him at the end; Vernon just didn't show up at the bus stop. Maybe it was meant to show that Pray's feelings about that church would always be tied up with his feelings about Vernon? Either the story petered out or they didn't make their point clearly enough.