Seduced: Inside The NXIVM Cult - General Discussion

[Hybridcookie]

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2020 at 4:34 PM, Fleegull said:

Nicki Clyne's inability to be off Insta got Keith caught. That's going to make me laugh for years. Eat real meals kids, starvation makes you stupid.

No wonder Nicki's out there dancing for Keith and coddling up to anyone who will give her some air time, she's partially responsible for getting him arrested.

I didn't realise that Nicki was as high up as she was, and I didn't realise she was a first line master either. I knew about her being in Mexico, marrying Allison for a green card and her dancing outside the prison, but she seems to have escaped a lot of the scrutiny and legal troubles.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Hybridcookie

[Pop Tart]

46 minutes ago, Hybridcookie said:

I didn't realise that Nicki was as high up as she was, I didn't realise she was a first line master too. I knew about her being in Mexico, marrying Allison for a green card and her dancing outside the prison, but she seems to have escaped a lot of the scrutiny and legal troubles.

Yes I've wondered this too. How has Nikki escaped prosecution when Lauren and Allison are both on the block? Nikki certainly hasn't turned on Keith and offered evidence against him and she was a first line master, thus would have been equally guilty of trafficking at the least I'd think? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

But doesn't everyone have recommitment ceremonies that involve a group blow job for the almighty leader?

On 11/9/2020 at 8:34 AM, Fleegull said:

Nicki Clyne's inability to be off Insta got Keith caught. That's going to make me laugh for years.

That totally cracked me up too. If you're visiting your exiled leader who is hiding in another country, maybe don't post pictures of yourself at recognizable landmarks?

I liked that until this point, Seduced avoided the lame reenactments and stuck with just straight interviews and Mark's footage. But then they had to go and do that pointless reenactment of India opening a box, finding the flash drives, and sitting in front of her computer. That was really unnecessary and stupid.

It's sad to me that she didn't accept the truth about DOS until she heard Keith say all of those things. But what we heard highlighted what an asshole Keith was. So just because his first line slaves didn't have a pen and paper handy, he told them to RUN and then HURRY UP, because apparently his lazy ass was incapable of fetching his own pen and paper. It was gross to hear Nicki and the other girls fawning all over the symbol and tell him it was so cool. And of course, his response was to tell them that this wasn't a democracy but an order. Those tapes revealed his true nature. He dropped any attempt at trying to appear like a benevolent leader and showed himself for the lazy brat he really is.

Listening to Keith's defense lawyer say that Keith never wanted to take advantage of anyone sexually reminded me why so many people hate lawyers. So gross.

On 11/9/2020 at 8:46 AM, For Cereals said:

One thing that bothered me was India’s statement about how other parents didn’t try as much as her mother or something to that effect.  Other members were probably deeply in debt and their parents I’m sure didn’t have the same resources or connections as Catherine.  Just bothered me.

That really annoyed me too. It's not that Catherine cared more than the other parents did. It's that:

(1) Catherine KNEW what was going on because Sarah contacted her and told her exactly what was happening in DOS. How many other parents got those phone calls? I'm not saying that it was Sarah's sole responsibility to track down every family member of everyone who was in NXIVM, but because Catherine had hosted NXIVM events, Mark/Bonnie/Sarah had an easy way to contact her. And because she had been to NXIVM events but didn't join, I think Mark/Bonnie/Sarah knew that it would be easier to convince her that the DOS stuff was true because she had seen NXIVM firsthand but had enough of a bullshit meter not to become a proctor.

(2) Even if Sarah/Mark/Bonnie contacted other parents/family members, I'm guessing most of them did not have the time, money, or resources to doggedly pursue this. Catherine said she reached out to lots of different kinds of people to get advice, information, and help. Most regular people have full time jobs to support themselves so they don't have the time to research all this stuff, let alone the money to pay consultants like Rick Ross or the connections to get the media to listen to her story.

(3) Terrible things happen every day. It sucks, but it's true. And not every one of those terrible things makes the front page of the New York Times. Catherine seemed like she was in touch with a lot of different media outlets before the NYT finally decided to write a piece and even then, they just sat on the story for months. Now imagine if instead of Catherine, related to royal families and former star of Dynasty, it was Joan, a 50 something mom who was living paycheck to paycheck, calling the New York Times and telling them that her daughter was in some crazy cult and asking them to write a story or randomly emailing whatever talk show hosts she could find contact info for.

Yes, Catherine was very persistent in getting this story out, but that doesn't mean she loves India more than the other victims' parents loved their kids. I'm guessing many of them had no idea just how bad things were or what was happening in DOS. If any of them did, I'd bet most of them didn't have the ability to do all the things that Catherine did. I don't begrudge Catherine for having those resources (time, money, and information) but I think it's unfair for India to interpret that as the other parents not trying as hard. You can't try to get your kid out of a sex cult if you don't know that they're in one.

ETA: Coincidentally, I just read this story about a college student and fraternity pledge who died. His mother is loaded and has already spent over $1 million on investigators and lawyers trying to find out what really happened the night that he died. Her story and Catherine/India's story proves my point - just because you have the time and money to pour into an investigation and hiring experts doesn't mean that you love your child more. It just means that you have more time and money than other parents do.

Edited November 11, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[dbklmt]

https://tvline.com/2020/11/11/nxivm-documentary-review-the-vow-seduced-cult-keith-raniere/#more-1234592699

Good commentary ino on the two Nxivm documentary series for HBO & STARZ

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Allison Mack Allegedly Tried to Recruit Smallville Co-Star Alaina Huffman Into NXIVM Sex Cult

Quote

Huffman -- who played Dinah Lance/Black Canary on Smallville -- explained that she was invited to meetings several times by Mack, but she never actually made it to those meetings for various reasons.

"As a young woman, 27, 28, on Smallville, Ally was a couple of years younger than me and here she was flourishing, very well put together, a really peppy and independent woman," Huffman said. "She invited me a few times to some of these events and for whatever reason, I never made it, maybe because I was married and had kids and I might have had something else that grounded more than I needed that kind of grounding, but I can understand the appeal."

Huffman also said that Mack wasn't the only person who tried to recruit her. She revealed that Bonnie Piesse, who played Beru Lars in Star Wars: Attack of the Clones and Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, also attempted to invite her to NXVIM.

"We went out for dinner and she was like, 'Oh, you've got to come to this group,'" Huffman said. "I said, 'Oh yeah, I know it from Ally.'"

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I can't decide if the court sketch artist really hates Allison Mack or just doesn't know how to draw women's faces:

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Allison Mack files for divorce from Nicki Clyne

[peachmangosteen]

On 11/10/2020 at 12:49 PM, Hybridcookie said:

I didn't realise that Nicki was as high up as she was, and I didn't realise she was a first line master either. I knew about her being in Mexico, marrying Allison for a green card and her dancing outside the prison, but she seems to have escaped a lot of the scrutiny and legal troubles.

 

On 11/10/2020 at 1:37 PM, Pop Tart said:

Yes I've wondered this too. How has Nikki escaped prosecution when Lauren and Allison are both on the block? Nikki certainly hasn't turned on Keith and offered evidence against him and she was a first line master, thus would have been equally guilty of trafficking at the least I'd think? 

This was my main take away from this. The Vow showed Nicki quite a bit but this show really showed that she was at the top. Her voice is heard on the tape of Keith creating the brand. How the hell was she not prosecuted? I also wonder how the doctor that actually did the branding didn’t get in any trouble.

[LeGrandElephant]

Do they ever explain why some of the faces are blurred but not most of them?

[aghst]

On 1/20/2021 at 9:59 PM, LeGrandElephant said:

Do they ever explain why some of the faces are blurred but not most of them?

My guess is that they didn't get those people to sign waivers to appear in this doc?

Didn't see The Vow, heard that this one was more cogent and more than covered the subject in 4 hours.

I thought the interesting part was the use of a lot of internal footage that NXIVM had shot professionally.  Then also, Ranieri's defense lawyer sat down and talked about how he could be found innocent of charges.

So that was interesting, that they were able to shoot contemporaneously with the trial and have that to use in the doc.

I'm guessing Starz must have paid India some fair amount of money because she has an Executive Producer's credit, which is often a way for TV shows to pay some actors, by giving them EP credits which pays them in addition to the role itself.

But EP could also mean having a certain control over the final edit as well.

The Oxenbergs may have seen this doc as a way to shape the narrative from their POV.  India said she realized that she could be vulnerable to prosecution as Co Conspirator #2 if she did not cooperate with the prosecution.  The fact that she collected "collateral" or means to coerce the slaves under her meant she had potential legal jeopardy.  Also as someone pointed out, one of the other defendants could turn on her and accuse her of wrongdoing.

 

This doc though didn't cover enough of the possible motivations of Alison Mack and the Bronfmans.  Were they just true believers or thirsty for KR or something?

They weren't young and naive like India was.  In fact one of the talking heads says India's brain hadn't been fully formed yet.

You see the early footage of KR's early scams and it's just incredible that anyone would fall for a pyramid scheme from that guy.

And he wasn't exactly hiding his motivations, with the devil emoji and the demand for group blow jobs.

 

[LeGrandElephant]

On 1/29/2021 at 11:11 PM, aghst said:

My guess is that they didn't get those people to sign waivers to appear in this doc?

I thought of that but do we really think they got all the people we did see to sign waivers? There are a LOT of them in crowd scenes etc with only a few faces blurred out. I was wondering if those blurred out were underage at the time or something like that. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I finally watched  this series.  It wasn’t the first piece I’ve seen about this group.  
 

I have empathy for abuse victims, but I struggle to see much difference between India and Allison Mack.  Mack seemed to be totally brainwashed too.  She acted like she was totally under the spell of Keith, yet she is condemned and punished. I suppose that India’s mother painting her as a complete victim didn’t hurt her case. Then there were the flash drives that India was able to bring to prosecutors.  I guess she avoided prosecution that way.  Still,  I was bothered seeing her portrayed as a victim, when she was equally a perpetrator.  I do wish her and all the victims a good recovery.  
 

I’ve never understood why anyone was impressed with Keith. He had no personality, no charm, no zest and lacked public speaking skills.  His odd comments were obviously lies.  He didn’t seem to be even slightly convincing.  I just don’t get it.  

Edited February 8, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[mamadrama]

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I finally watched  this series.  It wasn’t the first piece I’ve seen about this group.  
 

I have empathy for abuse victims, but I struggle to see much difference between India and Allison Mack.  Mack seemed to be totally brainwashed too.  She acted like she was totally under the spell of Matthew, yet she is condemned and punished. I suppose that India’s mother painting her as a complete victim didn’t hurt her case. Then there were the flash drives that India was able to bring to prosecutors.  I guess she avoided prosecution that way.  Still,  I was bothered seeing her portrayed as a victim, when she was equally a perpetrator.  I do wish her and all the victims a good recovery.  
 

I’ve never understood why anyone was impressed with Matthew. He had no personality, no charm, no zest and lacked public speaking skills.  His odd comments were obviously lies.  He didn’t seem to be even slightly convincing.  I just don’t get it.  

I don't get it with Keith either. It MUST be something that just doesn't translate to screen? Even Jim Jones was attractive and charismatic in the early years. 

[SunnyBeBe]

8 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I don't get it with Keith either. It MUST be something that just doesn't translate to screen? Even Jim Jones was attractive and charismatic in the early years. 

I was never impressed with Jones either, but to me Keith (correction to my post above where I called him Matthew), seems like a mouse. Not a leader at all. It’s really odd to me. 

[Irlandesa]

20 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I’ve never understood why anyone was impressed with Keith. He had no personality, no charm, no zest and lacked public speaking skills.  His odd comments were obviously lies.  He didn’t seem to be even slightly convincing.  I just don’t get it.  

I know people like this series better than The Vow because it's shorter and seemingly exposes more but I actually think The Vow eventually reached a moment that made me understand. Not feel it but understand what people were attracted to.

It takes quite a few episodes before they have that episode where he is not just the doof in the corner. 

A lot of his success, though, is just getting a few people to buy in.  They're the ones who prime everyone else.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Irlandesa

[mamadrama]

9 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I know people like this series better than The Vow because it's shorter and seemingly exposes more but I actually think The Vow eventually reached a moment that made me understand. Not feel it but understand what people were attracted to.

It take quite a few episodes before they have that episode where he is not just the doof in the corner. 

A lot of his success, though, is just getting a few people to buy in.  They're the ones who prime everyone else.

It seemed to be a bit of the emperor's new clothes. All it took was for a few people to buy into it and then spread it around. They created a myth around him so by the time the new people met him they already had preconceived notions of him. So he really didn't have to fool thousands of people, just a handful and then he relied on herd mentality. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Q&A with India Oxenberg and executive producers Cecilia Peck and Inbal B. Lessner (moderated by Laura Dern)

 

[dbklmt]

Allison Mack to be sentenced on June 30, 2021

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/allison-mack-makes-her-first-public-comments-days-before-her-nxivm-sentencing/ar-AALxYYJ?ocid=uxbndlbing

[dbklmt]

On 6/28/2021 at 6:31 PM, dbklmt said:

Allison Mack to be sentenced on June 30, 2021

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/allison-mack-makes-her-first-public-comments-days-before-her-nxivm-sentencing/ar-AALxYYJ?ocid=uxbndlbing

She's going to jail for 3 years but she could have gotten between 14 and 17 years. 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/allison-mack-sentenced-nxivm-sex-cult-case-1234975799/

India Oxenburg's reaction to the sentencing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/india-oxenberg-ex-nxivm-member-reacts-to-allison-mack-sentencing/ar-AALDdmH?li=BBnb7Kz

Next up for sentencing is Lauren Saltzman on July 28th.    

[dbklmt]

https://ew.com/tv/keith-raniere-ordered-to-pay-millions-to-nxivm-victims-branding-removal/?did=655168-20210721&utm_campaign=ewk-tv_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=072121&cid=655168&mid=62748885922

Only 7 more days till Lauren Salzman gets sentenced on July 28th. 

[dbklmt]

Here's a good article about Lauren Salzman who is being sentenced today.

Her mother Nancy is next on September 8th.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/us/lauren-salzman-nxivm-sentencing/index.html

She got no jail time only 5 years probation.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9835913/Lauren-Salzman-45-AVOIDS-jailtime-despite-admitting-recruiting-sex-slaves-NXIVM-cult.html

More info here

https://www.thedailybeast.com/lauren-salzman-former-top-nxivm-lieutenant-dodges-jail-time

Edited July 28, 2021 by dbklmt
Edited to add additional thoughts

[Hanahope]

I’m surprised the feds or police didn’t search Mack’s townhouse when they arrested her. They should have found the flash drives.  We are all lucky India chose to take the flash drives  and then turn them over .  
 

the birthday party where everyone praised Keith is familiar with men who need constant validation and control.  Unethical influence for sure.

 

[BetterButter]

NXIVM co-founder Nancy Salzman sentenced to 3.5 years in prison

Quote

Prosecutors said she helped run the purported self-help group that doubled as a secret high-ranking New York sex cult.