Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

The dream scene with Egwene went on too long. They could have cut part of the Prologue into that. Just the 'we've always done this'. Save the real tragic part till next season. 

[Danny Franks]

43 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The dream scene with Egwene went on too long. They could have cut part of the Prologue into that. Just the 'we've always done this'. Save the real tragic part till next season. 

Yeah. Shorten the scene with Egwene and present it as a 'this is your life if you choose the Dark One' then show Lews Therin losing his shit over his dead family as 'and this is your life if you don't.'

It would make Rand's choice even stronger, and his decision to leave more understandable.

[DoctorAtomic]

No, I'd even suggest to let the aftermath of Lews Therin for next season. Rand chose to reject Ish on his own, which was important. Next time, a more pissed of Ish could then say, 'oh yeah you sure? Take a look at this!' Then you have Falme. 

I meant more this first encounter to speak more to the Wheel ness of everything - 'so here we go again Lews. Maybe this time you just have the life you want. You don't need this burden. You don't owe anyone anything.' 

[Atlanta]

I haven't watched the last ep yet (about to), but Thom better be back. He's such a huge part of the books.

[Humbugged]

19 hours ago, Atlanta said:

I haven't watched the last ep yet (about to), but Thom better be back. He's such a huge part of the books.

Season 2 . That how long he was missing in the books

1   -   Nyn's mom

2  -    Suroth

3  -    ????????????

4  -   Lanfear

[Danny Franks]

Well three of the four seem fairly obvious, I agree. The guy could perhaps be a Forsaken, or a darkfriend or White Cloak. I can't think of any other obvious characters to be introduced that he might fit.

Still waiting for news of who is playing Aviendha.

[Black Knight]

41 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Still waiting for news of who is playing Aviendha.

I still find it weird that her name has not been released yet. Maybe when Judkins said that the part has been cast, it hadn't actually been finalized - they identified their choice but contract negotiations are still ongoing, something problematic was turned up in her social media history, someone at Amazon doesn't like the pick...

[Danny Franks]

46 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

I still find it weird that her name has not been released yet. Maybe when Judkins said that the part has been cast, it hadn't actually been finalized - they identified their choice but contract negotiations are still ongoing, something problematic was turned up in her social media history, someone at Amazon doesn't like the pick...

It took them a while to reveal who was playing Elayne as well. Some people had already figured out that it was Ceara Coveney, as she'd appeared in some of Madeleine Madden's social media posts and had been seen in Prague and... well... she's clearly Elayne.

I've no idea what the policy is, if there is a set policy, but they may be waiting for some big publicity events before announcing prominent cast additions.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Humbugged]

7 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

I still find it weird that her name has not been released yet. Maybe when Judkins said that the part has been cast, it hadn't actually been finalized - they identified their choice but contract negotiations are still ongoing, something problematic was turned up in her social media history, someone at Amazon doesn't like the pick...

No they have cast her and she is in it they just take there time announcing these things  it took forever to announce who was playing Elayne . And the new announcement today makes it likeley that Natasha O'Keeffe is playing Elaida .

[rab01]

I read Eye of the World twenty years ago so I'm hazy on it but -- (1) didn't the book include long scenes of Lan teaching Rand how to sword fight and Moraine teaching him to find the void? (2) Didn't the final fight involve using the only pure source of male power left in the world and a power battle written as something like a mystical sword-fight? (which would've been more entertaining than this snoozefest).

IF so, I'm fine with moving Rand faster towards madness but losing the training scenes makes it seems like knowledge and practice are irrelevant when it's kind of important throughout the books (and it's really stupid writing to have a chosen one who knows everything he needs without being taught).  Also, am I the only one who thinks that this "final" battle scene, besides being really dull, also borrows a bit from the actual final battle at the end of the series and will push them to change that too?  

[DoctorAtomic]

In the books though, Moirane was fairly certain that Rand was the dragon, so all the training made sense. That can be moved to the second season now. They've made a point to mention the heron on the sword, and Rand being a blade master is important to the story. 

I think playing coy with who the dragon was, didn't really pay off. 

I'm hoping they get more technical with the channeling next season as well. 

[Humbugged]

On 12/31/2021 at 2:55 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

In the books though, Moirane was fairly certain that Rand was the dragon, so all the training made sense. That can be moved to the second season now. They've made a point to mention the heron on the sword, and Rand being a blade master is important to the story. 

I think playing coy with who the dragon was, didn't really pay off. 

I'm hoping they get more technical with the channeling next season as well. 

I listen to the Wheel Takes podcast done by 2 actors from Northwestern (he has read the books and his wife has not - they have been doing it for the past 3 years). They had their language coach from NW on this week and they are all friends with the guy who plays Uno and they send students over to study in Prague with his company . And funnily enough the actor who is playing Suroth is his wife in real life who also is with the company

[Danny Franks]

On 12/31/2021 at 6:13 AM, rab01 said:

I read Eye of the World twenty years ago so I'm hazy on it but -- (1) didn't the book include long scenes of Lan teaching Rand how to sword fight and Moraine teaching him to find the void? (2) Didn't the final fight involve using the only pure source of male power left in the world and a power battle written as something like a mystical sword-fight? (which would've been more entertaining than this snoozefest).

IF so, I'm fine with moving Rand faster towards madness but losing the training scenes makes it seems like knowledge and practice are irrelevant when it's kind of important throughout the books (and it's really stupid writing to have a chosen one who knows everything he needs without being taught).  Also, am I the only one who thinks that this "final" battle scene, besides being really dull, also borrows a bit from the actual final battle at the end of the series and will push them to change that too?  

Rand already knew the Flame and the Void as a focus exercise Tam taught him. Lan shows Rand how it's a key part of sword training. It's not something Moiraine ever shows him, and I don't know that she ever talks about it at all.

In book two, Selene knows of it when Rand mentions it, and encourages him to use it as much as he can.

The internal aspect of this confrontation with Ishamael seems forced by the fact that they couldn't really film any dynamic scenes, due to a lack of stuntmen. It may be that they had already chosen for Rand's choice to be so... conversational, when contrasted against the battle scene they wanted to shoot.

But one thing this gives me hope about - that we will get Rand vs Ishamael in the sky above Falme. Because avoiding them fighting in the season one finale means they can do it in the season two finale without any repetition. If Falme is the season two finale, of course.

On 12/31/2021 at 2:55 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

In the books though, Moirane was fairly certain that Rand was the dragon, so all the training made sense. That can be moved to the second season now. They've made a point to mention the heron on the sword, and Rand being a blade master is important to the story. 

I think playing coy with who the dragon was, didn't really pay off. 

I'm hoping they get more technical with the channeling next season as well. 

I don't know when Lan is going to get the chance to train Rand, unless he and Moiraine catch up and accompany Rand wherever he's going. But I feel like it has to happen, because I do not want to see Rand just able to swordfight without training, and I don't want it to be a lazy, 'these are memories of his past life as Lews Therin' explanation.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

But one thing this gives me hope about - that we will get Rand vs Ishamael in the sky above Falme. Because avoiding them fighting in the season one finale means they can do it in the season two finale without any repetition. If Falme is the season two finale, of course.

On 12/31/2021 at 7:55 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

I didn't have too much of a problem with the Eye. I would have liked to be more Rand and Moiraine inadvertently release the Foresaken. She needed to be knocked down a peg, and she was anyway. Ish needs to be a convincing villain. He and Rand are going to be just as strong, but Ish has 3000 years of thinking about the Wheel and all that. He also wants to be Naeblis. Getting Rand out of the way without firing a shot would be a huge philosophical victory. 

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't know when Lan is going to get the chance to train Rand, unless he and Moiraine catch up and accompany Rand wherever he's going. But I feel like it has to happen, because I do not want to see Rand just able to swordfight without training, and I don't want it to be a lazy, 'these are memories of his past life as Lews Therin' explanation.

Given how much they zoomed in on the heron, it's got to be a major development. Moiraine can't go to the Tower, so she could send Lan after Rand and go to Fal Dara to regroup. With no actual guy around to train Rand to channel, the whole flame and void of training with Rand seems like a natural development. I mean, they have to get all the way to Falme somehow. 

[Black Knight]

If Rand and Lan/Moiraine aren't reunited for a while, they could have Rand get trained by someone other than Lan. There's certainly enough sword fighters running around. He'll be in Caemlyn at some point next season, plenty of opportunities there. It would obviously be coolest if it was Lan because he's such a badass and he's among the characters we know best, but from a story POV it doesn't have to be him.

[DoctorAtomic]

I actually think it does have to be him. He's literally the best in the world. Rand is the strongest channeler, but he's the only guy currently. Lan is the king without the country. It's the whole only person concept that just lines up. I'm not sure anyone else really understands what's happened to Rand but Lan. 

[Danny Franks]

I think it should be Lan, because it gives he and Rand a relationship that is important to a lot of fans, and more important to both characters than RJ often made clear - they train together in Fal Dara and Rand is thankful that Lan still treats him exactly the same, even knowing he can channel.

Then they train in the Waste and form a sort of quiet friendship and understanding that culminates in Lan offering that self-hating advice to Rand to let Elayne find someone else to love.

When they're together again in Far Madding, they go hunting rogue Asha'man together and have that bro-moment on the roof, where Lan slips off and Rand refuses to let him go.

And Rand arrives in the nick of time to save Lan at Tarwin's Gap, after telling Nynaeve he wouldn't, when he was busy being Darth Rand.

Of course, these moments may all be cut from the show, but I still think it means a lot to a lot of fans for Rand to at least learn the sword from Lan.

[DoctorAtomic]

There's no way in either universe that a Moiraine who spent literally her professional life finding the Dragon Reborn is going to let him traipse off wherever on his own.

If she goes back to Fal Dara, Ny is going to rip her head off for leaving him, and she could jeopardize her development with Egwene; she's not going to want to be a big shot Aes Sedai in light of someone she looks up to is leaving friends behind. Who is going to believe she let the Dragon die after just finding him? 

tbh, Moiraine can't lie, but she can say, 'He was being all broody and stormed off on his own. I seem to be shielded and need your help right now. I sent Lan after him.' That's the only way Ny doesn't kill her on the spot. 

They're all going to roll their eyes and be like 'okaaay Rand.' 

[Black Knight]

I've read some very good speculation that the point of Rand being on his own right now is to get in the Caemlyn segment from the first book.

And if they do that, then having him trained by Gareth Byrne perhaps, or Gawyn (yeah, I know in the books he's not that great, but he ends up being the warder of the Amyrlin, so giving him a level boost would make some sense) would work both as giving Rand needed sword-training and helping to establish one of the new male characters as someone worthwhile to contend with.

I'd like it to be Lan, too. But I just don't think it really matters to the point that if they aren't able to get Lan and Rand back together before the time where Rand really needs to have had some sword-training, they can't have someone else do it. Otherwise they'll have to fall back on "Rand remembers how from his past life" which nobody likes. Lan training Rand is a nice thing to have but not a must. If the timeline for that isn't working out, it's not the sort of thing where they have to go through all sorts of contortions to get it in anyway.

[pootlus]

Random thoughts post-season finale:

I'm honestly glad I read the books (admittedly, more than 20 years ago, and I stopped at around book 7 when the whole thing just got repetitive and the lack of female characterisation drove me nuts) because if I hadn't I wouldn't have a bloody clue what was going on.

I think if this is going to be a success, they need to stop worry about what the book purists are going to say - because there's a noisy minority that will never be happy - and write something that makes sense to non-book readers, as well as adding all the characterisation that Jordan forgot or didn't care about.

The other part is that they're going to have to get some good actors.  A shame Barney Harris quit, he was one of the better ones.  Some of the supporting cast has been bloody awful, which is not to say they are bad actors - speaking fantasy dialogue as if it is natural and makes perfect sense is not a skill that all have.  The Two Rivers gang have been...okay.  Zoe Robins being the best of them, by quite a stretch (since Harris isn't returning).  

Mind you at least the show has sold me on Lan/Nynaeve, which was always a big "huh?" for me in the books, but then I always thought of him as the plain hulking white guy from the cover of The Eye of the World not good-looking Daniel Henney. 

The showrunners need to concentrate on a good TV drama - which they seem to be trying to do - and not producing a blow-by-blow book adaptation, mostly because - and I'm probably going to lose a lot of friends here - the books are really very average.  Someone should have held Jordan to his original 5 (I think?) run and it would have been pretty decent.

[Haleth]

Ok, I’ve read the first book. Didn’t love it, it was ok but I felt that I never got a sense of who any of the characters were, other than Rand. And maybe Perrin a bit. The show at least fleshed everyone out much better. 

Why the heck didn’t the show runners save some of the cgi budget and film the climactic scene from the book?  That would have been a lot more thrilling than the lackluster confrontation in the show. Go out with a bang rather than a whimper. Usually book adaptations throw in extra action to up the visual thrills.  It makes no sense that the show would make the climactic battle so boring when the source material laid out something vastly different and much more interesting. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Haleth

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Ok, I’ve read the first book. Didn’t love it, it was ok but I felt that I never got a sense of who any of the characters were, other than Rand. And maybe Perrin a bit. The show at least fleshed everyone out much better. 

Why the heck didn’t the show runners save some of the cgi budget and film the climactic scene from the book?  That would have been a lot more thrilling than the lackluster confrontation in the show. Go out with a bang rather than a whimper. Usually book adaptations throw in extra action to up the visual thrills.  It makes no sense that the show would make the climactic battle so boring when the source material laid out something vastly different and much more interesting. 

I think they had significantly different plans for the climax of the season, focusing more on practical set pieces and stunt performers in the battle scene. Unfortunately covid restrictions prevented them from doing that, so they scrambled to change things. Not particularly satisfactorily.

Unless we see the original scripts I doubt we'll ever know how much changed. But I also think that the Rand vs The Dark One scene would have been more dynamic if it wasn't confined to a set built on a sound stage.

There's also a bit of an issue with similar tropes playing out in subsequent book climaxes - at least a couple of times - which works in the books because it shows Rand's growth as a channeller, but would feel repetitive on the screen. So I think that might be part of their rationale to change it up.

It still feels like it ended on a real damp squib to me, so I hope season two hits new heights.

[Humbugged]

On 12/26/2021 at 10:19 PM, Danny Franks said:

Well three of the four seem fairly obvious, I agree. The guy could perhaps be a Forsaken, or a darkfriend or White Cloak. I can't think of any other obvious characters to be introduced that he might fit.

Still waiting for news of who is playing Aviendha.

Ayoola Smart announced as Avi at Jordan Con  . Mixed ,has ginger hair and is very Irish . She is from West Cork

 

[Avaleigh]

I'm not reading the thread yet because I'm only on the second book. I read book one though and I'm glad I did. I'd bought the book before the series aired but only finished about 25% or so before I started watching. Initially I wasn't impressed with the series adaptation enough to want to read more but something made me go back to it, and I'm glad I did. I'm only four chapters into the second book but I'm really enjoying it.  

I have to say I have no idea what the show was going for with its season finale. Everything with the Blight was so much better in the book. Visually it could have been so stunning it really is a shame. I also thought the chapters in the Ways were far more compelling and that's even with me knowing that the characters would make it through.

I'm also confused about the direction they're taking Mat's character. I figured there'd be clarification on leaving him behind because it seemed so odd but it turns out he wasn't left behind at all.

Also, Rand's character is powerful enough that he's freaked out about how strong he is and is hoping that he'll never tap into the power again? On the show I was convinced that it was going to be some sort of situation where each of the five were needed to combine their powers so they can take on the Big Bad because individually they wouldn't be powerful enough. Instead Rand really is super strong. So strong in fact that he was able to make spring come back to the world. 

The other thing that I'm wondering about is why they would cut the characters of Elayne and her family. I thought that was one of the stronger sections of the book. Did they think it would take significance away from the Amyrlin Seat or something? Too many queens? 

[DoctorAtomic]

imo tv-wise, they're holding off on Eylane just to not dump a ton of characters all at once. I mean, I watch GOT every week, and most of the characters outside of the main like 5 I knew the names. 

Really, at this point, you only need to have Logain see Rand and know he's a huge deal and do the big laugh. You don't necessarily need him to be in Caemlyn to do that. 

I didn't like at first on the show that the women took care of the Trollocs in the Gap because in the book Rand blew them away. In hindsight, I think it is a good narrative choice. So far, Ny is the most diesel channeler they've shown on the show. Rand is way way more powerful, so when the show reveals that, I think it would have more impact. 

The issue with Mat was irl and not narratively.

Edited June 28, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Black Knight]

I think they really just didn't have enough episodes granted them to cover the full first book. The Caemlyn portion lifts out the easiest on account of its being pretty self-contained, and it's also a good choice because it has a slew of new characters.

[Danny Franks]

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I have to say I have no idea what the show was going for with its season finale. Everything with the Blight was so much better in the book. Visually it could have been so stunning it really is a shame. I also thought the chapters in the Ways were far more compelling and that's even with me knowing that the characters would make it through.

I think the finale was badly affected by the Covid lockdown. There were reports that they had to cut whole sequences due to not being able to access locations they wanted to use and not being able to film scenes where they needed stunt performers.

It seems like they wanted a bigger set-piece battle at the end, but had to cut it all and were left with something that looked really lame and disjointed. 

As for Rand's confrontation with Ba'alzamon, it was very underwhelming but I think that would have been okay as the quiet, serious talky section, juxtaposed with a big battle.

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm also confused about the direction they're taking Mat's character. I figured there'd be clarification on leaving him behind because it seemed so odd but it turns out he wasn't left behind at all.

That's another Covid problem, because the actor playing Mat didn't return to the production after lockdown. No one knows the reasons for it, but it left them without a Mat to film the last two episodes. I think I can see where they're going to go with his character, by combining some storylines from books two and three for him, but it will take some doing.

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

The other thing that I'm wondering about is why they would cut the characters of Elayne and her family. I thought that was one of the stronger sections of the book. Did they think it would take significance away from the Amyrlin Seat or something? Too many queens? 

Elayne has been cast for season two, though I don't know if the rest of her family have been. I think they just wanted to streamline the story and not have to cast the Andoran royals for one episode, then get them back a year later to film season two. It also saved them on having to create Caemlyn as a location.

But I don't know how that's going to work either, because Elayne and Gawyn meeting Rand in book one is kind of important to all three characters.

The upshot is, they needed ten episodes and a two-hour pilot episode, but Amazon wouldn't give it to them.

[DoctorAtomic]

10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

As for Rand's confrontation with Ba'alzamon, it was very underwhelming but I think that would have been okay as the quiet, serious talky section, juxtaposed with a big battle.

I still wanted him to take out the Foresaken, but again, I can buy throwing in one or two new people when the Foresaken were only mentioned briefly might not have worked. I thought the idea they did use worked - Rand made the decision on his own that he would be selfish in forcing Egwene into a life he wanted, and it showed and inner strength to do the right thing that the Dragon should do. It also underlies that Rand will be making a lot of decisions for the greater good that's going to isolate him. 

Also I think it works because Rand's power needs to be shown to be literally earth shaking, so when the Foresaken finally jump out and he beats them down, it needs to be a huge deal. 

There's also a nice card thrown in Moiraine threatening to slit his throat that's not going to pay off until you all know what with the doorway. 

[Black Knight]

On 6/28/2022 at 10:25 PM, Danny Franks said:

Elayne has been cast for season two, though I don't know if the rest of her family have been. I think they just wanted to streamline the story and not have to cast the Andoran royals for one episode, then get them back a year later to film season two. It also saved them on having to create Caemlyn as a location.

But I don't know how that's going to work either, because Elayne and Gawyn meeting Rand in book one is kind of important to all three characters.

It seems pretty easy to me. The show can just write in that as part of Rand's spinning up the Dragon Reborn machine he visits Caemlyn to try to get the Andorran royals on board. The dynamic between Rand and the Caemlyn characters will obviously be a little different in that he will already know he's the Dragon Reborn and so Elayne and the others will be made aware of that. But since Rand found that out not long after the Caemlyn sequence in the first book anyway, it matters little. It's not like Rand and Elayne interacted for five books before knowing who he is.

[Avaleigh]

Well, I'm racing through the third book. Really enjoyed book two and am curious what all from books 2 and 3 will make it to the show with only 8 episodes. 

The Padan Fain stuff is really good and I'm wondering how well it will translate onscreen since he's in his head about everything most of the time. (Btw what sort of dumbass becomes a darkfriend anyway? It seems like none of them have anything to show for it or have even met anyone who has something to show for it so how is the darkfriend recruiting so high?)

Liandrin is right up there with Cersei. She's just the worst. Oh, and the Seanchan can fuck all the way off.

Really like everything with Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene. Egwene is much more interesting in the books than the show. I hope that changes. Same with Rand. The show made these characters so dull. Nynaeve and Mat are the only Two Rivers characters I feel like the show got right. 

I always feel for the actresses who have to play impossibly beautiful characters. The way they describe Selene it's like she's God's gift and every male character makes note of it.

[DoctorAtomic]

Do you want us to say anything or just keep reporting on reading the books?

3 and 5 were my favorites and I'll say why when you get there.

[Danny Franks]

16 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Well, I'm racing through the third book. Really enjoyed book two and am curious what all from books 2 and 3 will make it to the show with only 8 episodes. 

The Padan Fain stuff is really good and I'm wondering how well it will translate onscreen since he's in his head about everything most of the time. (Btw what sort of dumbass becomes a darkfriend anyway? It seems like none of them have anything to show for it or have even met anyone who has something to show for it so how is the darkfriend recruiting so high?)

Fain is a really interesting, confusing character. I think Jordan originally wrote him as a Gollum-like character but then decided he had bigger plans for him. There's a lot more to come, but I do like the change the show made, to have him far more cocksure and coherent. He feels much more threatening, rather than chaotic and unpredictable.

16 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Liandrin is right up there with Cersei. She's just the worst. Oh, and the Seanchan can fuck all the way off.

Really like everything with Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene. Egwene is much more interesting in the books than the show. I hope that changes. Same with Rand. The show made these characters so dull. Nynaeve and Mat are the only Two Rivers characters I feel like the show got right. 

I think Egwene was a good adaptation of the book character. She's got that stubbornness and ambition but she's just not had that much screen time to show it.

I think season two will be big for her.

Rand and Perrin need a lot of writing dedicated to them. Particularly Rand who people need to like.

16 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I always feel for the actresses who have to play impossibly beautiful characters. The way they describe Selene it's like she's God's gift and every male character makes note of it.

Yeah, Selene as "the most beautiful woman in the world" is impossible to cast without someone complaining. Everyone has a different idea of what the height of beauty should be.

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, Selene. 

Fain was nothing but filler to me. I take the point of the character, but I always was rolling my eyes. 

[Avaleigh]

On 8/2/2022 at 8:34 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

Do you want us to say anything or just keep reporting on reading the books?

3 and 5 were my favorites and I'll say why when you get there.

I actually like reading the comments of other people because I don't know anyone who's read the series. It's fun to hear other people's takes, I just know that this is a free for all thread and I don't want to ruin it for people. 

I'd always heard about this series being worth checking out from people who were fans of ASOIAF but I think I was intimidated by how many books there are and that kept me from giving it a chance. 

Another thing I've wondered is how aware the Amyrlin Seat is of the whole damane thing. Everyone at Tar Valon seems to recognize that their numbers are much lower than they used to be and I have to think that this is at least part of the reason why. Also, if the Seanchan have so many women and girls who are able to channel (who seem like they've been taken from all over the place) how are more people not wanting to band together to keep this shit from spreading? The more women they take and enslave, the more powerful they'll become.

This reminds me of something--on the show when that tidal wave at the end happened, was that supposed to be our introduction to the Seanchan?

The only thing the Seanchan have done that I'm happy about is kicking the ass of the Whitecloaks in that battle. Religious fanatics are the worst and these people think they're all about the Light even when they torture and kill innocent people. I'm worried too about them finding Perrin because he won't be able to hide his eye color.

Regarding the Children of Light, I did read a chapter where we find out one guy is being controlled by a Myrddraal. So this guy is getting squeezed by his commander and the Myrddraal. Talk about being in between a rock and a hard place. I can't imagine him survivng much longer. 

Regarding Liandrin and 12 other Aes Sedai leaving...I wonder if it's possible that one or two of the Aes Sedai who went with Liandrin didn't go willingly? The Amyrlin Seat seems so convinced that there is a traitor who stayed behind in Tar Valon. Add in the significance of there being 13 like the 13 shadowspawn (I can't remember what they're called) maybe some of the 13 that left aren't actually members of the Black Ajah. Or maybe 13 isn't a significant number the way Nynaeve and Egwene suspect it could be. 

I'm also curious if all the ones who left were of the Red Ajah. They're like the Slytherins of Tar Valon.

Last thought about what I've read so far. I'm surprised that Elayne's mother didn't do more once she realized her daughter had apparently vanished without a trace. I know they can't take on a bunch of Aes Sedai but I feel like at a minimum they'd want to conduct their own search and investigation?

Edited August 3, 2022 by Avaleigh

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

Also, if the Seanchan have so many women and girls who are able to channel (who seem like they've been taken from all over the place) how are more people not wanting to ban together to keep this shit from spreading? The more women they take and enslave, the more powerful they'll become.

No one in Europe Randland is quite aware widespread of the Seanchan threat if I know where you are. The continent is also hugely decentralized. You'll see this is going to be a huge problem. 

[Black Knight]

On 8/2/2022 at 2:32 PM, Danny Franks said:

Particularly Rand who people need to like.

I never liked Rand and it didn't stop me from reading all the books up to the point where I got fed up with Tor's cash grabs and refused to buy the last three. Some viewers will like Rand and some won't; it's not necessary that everyone like him. There are tons of characters and the story is far bigger than Rand.

[DoctorAtomic]

Rand was great in 5. I could buy that he got pissy for a while because EVERYTHING was a THING with EVERYONE. I mean, he would ask for tea and you'd think he told everyone he was going to level Dragonmount. 

Plus, he had Lews in his head. He was terrified that he was already nuts and really was going to destroy the world. Also being locked up and thrown in a trunk is going to give anyone a little post traumatic stress. He also had a ton of guilt for Moiraine. 

I never liked Cadsuane always calling him 'boy'. It's like, you do know he could literally level the entire castle before you could finish a sneeze? I get her wanting to get him a little more manners because you're going to need that dealing with kings and queens, but I always thought she had her own head up her ass that she was somehow controlling the Dragon and it was more about 'we're going to win the way I want to win and I don't care'. That's consistent with a lot of the book, and really the lack of genuine honesty between otherwise reasonable people when literally the world was ending turned me off a lot. I mean, you'd think at least one person would be a mediating presence. 

I always laugh when they're all channeling and think they're being so sly and he yells at them to knock it off, and they're all, 'what? how?' And Rand is just fuming. 

I think Rand got back to being more affable, for lack of a better word, once he kind of got back to being friends with Ny. 

I really wish they got more into the philosophy of the Wheel. Min was sort of the focal point there, and I hope the show digs more into that. Book-Min didn't do much otherwise, so I'd like to see her have more agency on the show. I really liked Rand thinking, 'well, at one point there *wasn't* a Bore, so if I'm just sealing it back up, that's not really going to do anything and whackadoo Ish is just going to be running around again.' 

But I agree that the show needs a reasonably likeable Rand, even if he sometimes is going to yell at people (who largely deserve it). I think showing him delving (see what I did there?) into the philosophy more will give him a more deeper facet than super powerful guy is just going to blow everything up. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[quarks]

Ah, Cadsuane. I'm torn. On the one hand, yay, prominent older woman who isn't just a kindly grandmother or an outright evil witch!

And on the other hand, Cadsuane. One of my least favorite characters in the series.

Which is to say, I think I'll probably be ok if Cadsuane never shows up - as long as Verin does, and as a main cast member.

[DoctorAtomic]

The only reason iirc was Min told Rand she had her vision of Cadsuane. And like I said, not Rand's fault, but he needed some polishing to deal with the nobles, game of houses, etc. I don't see that as unreasonable. He had to basically unite the continent, and everyone was treating the end of the world as an annoyance. Moiraine could have helped, but she went through the door. To be fair, Cadsuane wasn't an idiot either. "Hey, let's find the oldest living Aes since the world is ending. She might know something." That's not a bad idea. She definitely had her head up her ass though. 

She was super powerful too. 

Verin is essential. I cannot wait for her to show up and the non bookers being like 'is she high the whole time?'

Edited August 7, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Danny Franks]

On 8/5/2022 at 5:12 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I really wish they got more into the philosophy of the Wheel. Min was sort of the focal point there, and I hope the show digs more into that. Book-Min didn't do much otherwise, so I'd like to see her have more agency on the show. I really liked Rand thinking, 'well, at one point there *wasn't* a Bore, so if I'm just sealing it back up, that's not really going to do anything and whackadoo Ish is just going to be running around again.' 

Book Min basically just lounged around reading philosophy and enabling Rand's worst instincts, just so she could stay close to him. It... wasn't a good look for a character who started off as so independent and strong-minded.

I often hear people say, 'oh, but Rand would have been so much worse without her around' but all she did was give him constant reassurance that, no matter what he did, she'd love him. That's not healthy. And her presence ultimately resulted, as he had feared it would, in him crossing the line he'd set for himself to never cross - willingly killing a woman (even if she was an evil Forsaken who was forcing him to kill Min).

I'll be honest, some of my distaste for her character's journey is due to her being held up as the 'ultimate waifu' by the same sort of online fans who hate all the rest of the women because they're "too bitchy and entitled" and constantly moan about having to read the Egwene/Nynaeve/Elayne POV sections. It's not complicated to figure out why they like Min, who gives up everything else in her life to be with Rand and is just there to be his supportive girlfriend while he does important hero things.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think that's going to fly on television. If they take Rand's ruminations out of his internal monologue re: Bore, to dialogue with Min, who is studying the philosophy of the Wheel, history of what channelers could do etc., as a key to 

I always thought Rand not killing women was ridiculous because, hey, you lost Moiraine just when you were cultivating an actual relationship with her. In terms of taking her advice, etc.

She needs agency. She could run Rand's private eyes and ears network. Use her talent to identify Darkfriends, etc. Figure out why Lews is in his head. Help recruit Ashaman. Maybe her Talent could be finding male channelers. Anything Rand-internal could be split to her. 

[Avaleigh]

I finally finished book 3 and enjoyed it. Scattered thoughts ahead:

I like how Mat was thinking, 'yay, Ba'alzamon is dead so we can all go home now' only to find out the war has only just started. If I didn't already know there 11(!?) more books, I might have thought there was only one or two books left. 

I'm surprised there wasn't more with Lanfear. They laid so many breadcrumbs with her in book 2 I figured we'd get more of her especially now that she seems like she's looking to use Mat at some point. Why did Moiraine not tell the group earlier to possibly be on the look out for this bitch? She clearly had it in her head that there was a possibility that Lanfear was a factor back in book 2 but she never mentioned it to any of the big 5. She withholds info to the point of negligence. 

Also, how do Lanfear and Moiraine know each other? Why would Lanfear reach out to Moiraine with that letter? What's the point of revealing that she's waiting in the wings for Rand? Is Moiraine older than we realize? Seems like they might have had a conflict before.

At the same time, I love Nynaeve, but her hatred of Moiraine (thinking that she hates her almost as much as Liandrin?!) is seriously OTT. 

Sandor seems cool, hope he makes it to the show. 

Speaking of the show, I'm curious how much of book 3 will make it in. I really hope they do justice with all of the stuff with the Black Ajah. I like that it's an ongoing mystery about which of the Aes Sedai are helping them inside of Tar Valon. I keep wondering if all of the 13 who went missing did so by choice. Maybe one or two of them were forced to go and there are a couple who had to stay behind to keep eyes on the Amyrlin Seat. 

Another ongoing mystery is who the guy is at the beginning of book 2? I wonder if he's been hiding in plain sight this whole time or if we just haven't got back to that part of the story yet. I was wondering if it could be the dude who is now running things in Tear. They said he just kind of showed up out of nowhere, right? I need to get better with character names. High Lord Samon maybe?

I kind of felt bad for Mat when they were treating him like shit after he helped rescue them. But then I remember him earlier thinking that all of the girls owed him a kiss so my sympathy there was limited lol. 

I like that there are so many good female characters here.

I wonder what Liandrin's goal is. What is the point in becoming a darkfriend? Is it just that she wants something basic like power or does she just want to be on what she thinks will be the winning side? 

Is Morgase under some kind of spell? Her boyfriend Gaebril seems like he might be controlling her in a magical way. Is he a Littlefinger type only more skilled with a sword? Maybe he's in league with one of the Black Ajah?*

Lots of stuff to unpack with this one.

Oh wow, it just occured to me--could Gaebril be the dude who called himself Boros or something like that? I can't remember his physical description. Another character we haven't had an update on is Padan Fain. I wonder if it's possible in this world for people to change their physical descriptions Faceless Man style?

Edited August 20, 2022 by Avaleigh

[DoctorAtomic]

Mat inventing dynamite to blow open the roof on Tear and then looking at all the Aiel breaking in and saying 'We having a party now?' has to be the funniest scene in the entire series. 

[Avaleigh]

One other thing I forgot to comment on--names and pronunciation. Sometimes I feel like this guy went out of his way to choose or make up words that can be pronounced in two, three even four different ways. Or even with something simple like Tear it's like, would it have been too difficult to go with Tair instead of Tear especially when he uses the word Tairen to describe the people? I know they have the pronunciation guide but I didn't check it out until the first book so I'd been saying stuff like sy-dar and sy-din for saidar and saidin. Cairhien I totally had wrong.

I'm okay with the show having Moiraine sound like Moy-rain although I acknowledge that it would be a little annoying to spend x amount of years saying the name the way the author intended only to have the show go a different way.

[DoctorAtomic]

I get all of the pronounciations wrong.

[Danny Franks]

22 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

One other thing I forgot to comment on--names and pronunciation. Sometimes I feel like this guy went out of his way to choose or make up words that can be pronounced in two, three even four different ways. Or even with something simple like Tear it's like, would it have been too difficult to go with Tair instead of Tear especially when he uses the word Tairen to describe the people? I know they have the pronunciation guide but I didn't check it out until the first book so I'd been saying stuff like sy-dar and sy-din for saidar and saidin. Cairhien I totally had wrong.

I'm okay with the show having Moiraine sound like Moy-rain although I acknowledge that it would be a little annoying to spend x amount of years saying the name the way the author intended only to have the show go a different way.

I'm a bit picky about pronunciations, even if I admit some of mine are probably wrong.

For me it's always Mwah-rain and Kai-ree-en. Nynaeve is the on that often flummoxes people, but that one always seemed very straightforward to me, as a Gaelic-derived name.

I never did audiobooks - for this series or for any other book, really - I always went with paper. I have bought Rosamund Pike's EOTW audiobook and will buy TGH too. I think she does such a good job of injecting life and fun and personality into her reading.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Danny Franks

[DoctorAtomic]

I call  Cairhien 'care-hain'. Awful. 

[Avaleigh]

Moiraine, Rand and Mat each got to ask three questions. Moiraine has a lot of nerve to ask Rand what his questions and answers were when she won't tell him hers. Curious who the daughter of the nine moons is. Why would Mat not ask someone who she is? He wouldn't have to say why. It's not "Selene", is it? I'm just thinking of a character who is associated with the moon. 

I think Mat and Nynaeve's dislike/hatred of Moiraine is OTT but even I was irritated with Moiraine there. Mat seems to have issues with women. There's actually a point before he goes into the ter'angreal where he wonders why Nynaeve and Egwene didn't dust the and straighten up the room because women apparently are always supposed to do that sort of thing. 

It hadn't occurred to me until Moiraine asked Thom to look after Elayne and Nynaeve but I'm wondering if there's any possibility that Thom is Elayne's father? He doesn't act like he's interested in her enough for that to be the case but the thought did cross my mind.

Faile and Perrin are both being annoying. I don't like the way she manipulated Loial and I don't like Perrin not just being straightforward with her. Not especially looking forward to those chapters. Will be really pissed if Loial is killed because of one of those two. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Where are you at right now? 

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Where are you at right now? 

Thom seems like he's deciding if he should stay and help Rand or go to Tanchico to look out for Elayne and Nynaeve. I'm guessing he's going to go with Elayne for the sake of Morgase. He's worried about Rand ending up like Owyn. 

Very intrigued by Egwene and Aviendha going to the red waste.