Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

I think Lanfear was going to try to shield Rand. I have another book-reason why that I put under a spoiler here because I didn't know if you got there yet. 

The split of the Tower is such a huge plot in the books that I don't think the show would omit it. So you'd think Elaida would have to be appearing at some point. She's too important to be combined with another character.

I don't think she needs to be introduced until we get to the court, but I don't see that it needs to be this season. Game of Thrones had 4 billion characters so they can have a few million here. We need to get to Byrne at some point too. 

I'm assuming they're ending the season with Falme. I'm totally unspoiled, but they mentioned it about 500 times so far. And I'm still saying "Fal-MAY". 

Edited September 11, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[Noneofyourbusiness]

I thought she might be going to use Compulsion on him.

In the books, at least, Warder bonding is a weave discovered in the current Age that the Forsaken don't know.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[SueB]

Addressing some precious comments:

Mat WAS held in the tower post his BIG healing.  And he learned he had luck when he escaped with the help of the Amirlyn’s letter (borrowed from on of the girls).  I can’t tell if that story is still to come or over.  Mat doesn’t have his luck so I don’t know where we are.  
 

I agree, slitting throat and coming back were for demonstration of immortality. 
 

my question:

WHO is the Queen of a Cairhein that Lindsay Duncan is marrying her son to?  Cairhein had a King (killed by Thom) and was the rust into civil war.  I’m confused.  
 

I can see the crowd ending up at Falmec but that is only The Great Hunt.  How do we fit that AND the Stone of Tear in remaining episodes???

[quarks]

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 

The split of the Tower is such a huge plot in the books that I don't think the show would omit it. So you'd think Elaida would have to be appearing at some point. She's too important to be combined with another character.

I don't think she needs to be introduced until we get to the court, but I don't see that it needs to be this season. Game of Thrones had 4 billion characters so they can have a few million here. We need to get to Byrne at some point too. 

 

Regarding Elaida, I agree that the show will be keeping the split in the Tower - not just because it was a critical plot/thematic point in the books, but also because they've been dropping hints about it for two seasons. I'm just not sure how involved Elaida will be in this - I think it's at least possible that this will involve Liandrin instead. 

I say this, fully aware that a certain actor renowned for her role on The Expanse who could certainly nail Elaida has allegedly been spotted filming in the general area. But given that the show has also name dropped Cadsuane a couple of times, I think it's at least possible that said actor is playing Cadsuane. Or - and this would be fun - Moghedien. And I say this reluctantly because one aspect of Elaida that I genuinely enjoyed that Liandrin doesn't share: Elaida wasn't a Darkfriend. Just easily manipulated by Darkfriends.

But I also say this fully aware that we are in the middle of season two, and so far, other than Elayne, the other Andor characters not only haven't appeared, they haven't even been mentioned, unless we are counting Moraine and Anvaere as the Damodred in-laws, or Rand's mother Tigraine. I'm still expecting Galad and Gawyn to make an appearance at some point - Elayne and Rand sharing a half-brother who joins the Whitecloaks offers a lot of potential TV drama, and Gawyn....Gawyn is in the books. But I'm not really expecting Gareth Byrne or other Andor characters to show up.

Just now, SueB said:

my question:

WHO is the Queen of a Cairhein that Lindsay Duncan is marrying her son to?  Cairhein had a King (killed by Thom) and was the rust into civil war.  I’m confused.  
 

I can see the crowd ending up at Falmec but that is only The Great Hunt.  How do we fit that AND the Stone of Tear in remaining episodes???

The Queen of Cairhein appears to be a change from the books? I've seen some speculation that she is going to turn out to be Morgase, but as far as I know that's just speculation.

What really strikes me with Tear is that so far, it's barely been mentioned, and Callandor hasn't been mentioned at all. So I have no idea if any of that is going to be included this season or not. Certainly the buildup hasn't been, at least so far.

[DoctorAtomic]

39 minutes ago, quarks said:

And I say this reluctantly because one aspect of Elaida that I genuinely enjoyed that Liandrin doesn't share: Elaida wasn't a Darkfriend. Just easily manipulated by Darkfriends.

I think that's precisely the point as to why they need to keep her. That's also why I was sending up Rand in another comment about him not getting anyone to do anything. If everyone is just a darkfriend, it's not much of a compelling story because anyone who opposes Rand is just evil and we can kill them off. 

Having Elaida just being sanctimonious and thinking she knows best out of everyone sets everything back *years*. 

[quarks]

12 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think that's precisely the point as to why they need to keep her. That's also why I was sending up Rand in another comment about him not getting anyone to do anything. If everyone is just a darkfriend, it's not much of a compelling story because anyone who opposes Rand is just evil and we can kill them off. 

Having Elaida just being sanctimonious and thinking she knows best out of everyone sets everything back *years*. 

To be fair, though, they have seemed to give most of the Darkfriends we've met so far more nuance and motivation than they got in the books. Book Liandrin was evil because she was evil; show Liandrin appears to have joined the Black Ajah for fairly good reasons. The innkeeper/barmaid from last season had legitimate reasons to be upset about the current status quo. Spoiler because I don't think Avaleigh has reached this point yet in the books:

Spoiler

Show Sheriam seemed genuinely upset about Nynaeve - yeah, her bedside manner to Egwene was awful, and yeah, she presumably feels the need to hide her true status - but she did seem genuinely upset.

So I think they've already done a decent job of showing that at least some of the antagonists aren't just evil. And if - I stress if - Lady Anvaere turns out to be a Darkfriend (I am loving Lindsey Duncan in the role, but, suspicious), that will just add to the nuance here.

[DoctorAtomic]

You still can't have everyone in any position of influence being a Darkfriend though. There's the whole "I was just following orders crowd" and the petty nobles who don't want a Breaking because they might not be rich anymore. 

It's easier to kill a Darkfriend with little impunity than someone just being a bitch. Plus, if everyone is a Darkfriend, it's going to be hard to have leadership in the last battle with basically no commanding officers because you had to whack them. 

There's drama to be mined in winning people over to your side. Really, that is a lot of the book when we have to slog through 'hard-Rand'. The political union of the continent hadn't even been attempted for 1000 years, and even then it wasn't everyone.  

[quarks]

And, also, I am wrong! Elaida has been cast and will be in the next season.

The actress playing her is amazing, so....my opinion of show Elaida may be better than my opinion of book Elaida. We'll see!

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, it would be hard to be worse. 

[quarks]

Forsaken countdown again!

So, in our most recent meeting with Ishamael and Lanfear, Lanfear said that Ishamael hadn't woken up the others yet because Moghedien is insane; Graendel is useless, and the "boys" are incompetent. A hilarious confirmation that Moghedien and Graendel will eventually be making appearances in the show, and that the show wants us to continue to wonder which of the men will be joining Ishamael.

But that's only three of the women, and four of those Forsaken statues were women.

So.....

.....was that meant as a hint that Semirhage (or, less likely, Mesaana) is also awake?

 

[Danny Franks]

So the change to having the seals needing to be broken to release Forsaken is interesting. I think I like it as a change, rather than having them all just randomly showing up at different times.

But it does make Ishamael's continued existence more important, and I always liked the scheming and backbiting between the rest of them.

And Lanfear in the show is spectacular. She really is. Arrogant, cold, infinitely petty and cruel and vindictive... and completely flamboyant and showy. If she doesn't become a gay icon, something is wrong.

I've tried to avoid speculating or imagining scenes from the books being interpreted for the show, but I just have this end of season, post-credits scene stuck in my head - The Whitecloaks riding into Emond's Field and Bornhald saying "we're looking for a golden eyed man. His name is Perrin."

[quarks]

A few other book/sorta book things I genuinely enjoyed in episode 205:

1. Perrin holding a hammer, asking Aviendha not to use an axe. A small thing, but pretty cool - especially given that they were discussing whether or not to kill Dain.

2. Each of Rand's prospective wives (assuming the show keeps this bit), forming friendships with a different one of his friends (Egwene/Elayne, from the books; Mat/Min, not from the books, and now Perrin/Aviendha, also not from the books).

3. Aviendha immediately bringing up toh, given the importance of that in the books/many of her decisions. 

Also, that scene helped show just why Aviendha is/was so reluctant to become a Wise One - I mean, sure, she did spend some time as a prisoner in a cage, but otherwise, she seems to be having quite a bit of fun exploring the world beyond the Waste, fighting Whitecloaks, and so on. She looked genuinely happy, chatting with and teasing Perrin. And the fighting is something she clearly spent years training for - and it's something she's great at.

Getting asked to give all that up....that's going to hit hard, I think.

[Danny Franks]

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

1. Perrin holding a hammer, asking Aviendha not to use an axe. A small thing, but pretty cool - especially given that they were discussing whether or not to kill Dain.

Yeah, this is the sort of nod to the books that puts a complete lie to claims by show haters that Rafe and other writers haven't read the books. Only someone who was really invested in Perrin's character (which isn't easy, even for devout fans of the books) would think to put this in.

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

2. Each of Rand's prospective wives (assuming the show keeps this bit), forming friendships with a different one of his friends (Egwene/Elayne, from the books; Mat/Min, not from the books, and now Perrin/Aviendha, also not from the books).

3. Aviendha immediately bringing up toh, given the importance of that in the books/many of her decisions. 

It's fascinating to me because the pairings they've given us had no relationship at all in the books. I think Mat spoke to Min in the final book, but only briefly, and Perring may have spoken to Aviendha outside Rand's chambers in Tear.

But it's fun. I don't mind Gaul being replaced with Aviendha, and I don't mind Aviendha having toh to Perrin. We know she can't follow him to the Two Rivers because she's going to be called home by the Wise Ones, but she can ask friends to go with him instead, which could give us Gaul, Bain and Chiad.

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

Also, that scene helped show just why Aviendha is/was so reluctant to become a Wise One - I mean, sure, she did spend some time as a prisoner in a cage, but otherwise, she seems to be having quite a bit of fun exploring the world beyond the Waste, fighting Whitecloaks, and so on. She looked genuinely happy, chatting with and teasing Perrin. And the fighting is something she clearly spent years training for - and it's something she's great at.

I'm already eager to see her being mean to Rand next season. I loved all their scenes together in books four and five - Aviendha seething in anger at her situation and Rand just completely flummoxed by her behaviour.

[DoctorAtomic]

I know because of tv it's probably too hard to do, but didn't the Seanchan talk kind of slurry? The Seanchan having the Horn is a problem. I don't think the show would not have the battle at Falme, and it looks like from what Ish says, we're getting that. Then we need Mat to blow the horn. 

Can't Lanfear Travel? I thought Liandrin was Traveling at first and got mad because it's a huge development and makes Ishamael go 'uh oh'.

I think it's a good narrative choice to have some one on one time with Rand and Moiraine this early on. Although, girl, bleak. You think all hope is lost already? Have a little confidence in the Dragon and his friends. I wonder if they're accelerating the final confrontation with Lanfear. The bedroom scene was really well done. She's not being all "boy" with him. 

I've never been a fan of the Children since the start. The concept of an independent army isn't unheard of, but I could never buy it at that scale. With everything going on, they were such an unnecessary plot obstacle. 

I totally forgot that Oaths prevented them from attacking anyone randomly. Good motivation for Liandrin to turn Black Ajah because of the son. 

Didn't Aviendha (I got the pronunciation right!) have red hair too? I don't remember her and Perrin interacting, but I think it's good to get all the major players interacting a bit early on. It's important to show Perrin letting Dain go for later on. 

I'm not sure it was a good idea to age up all the Aes Sedai too much. The Foresaken always called them children, but if they're centuries old, then you have to have the Foresaken up in the thousands. That's stretching out the Age of Legends for a long long time. It doesn't look like Moiraine is that much older than Lindsay Duncan, but Verin saying 'centuries' seems a little much. 

It's hard to argue against the current power structure existing simply because of an 'accident of birth'. I'm also anti-slavery too, so I'm quite opposed to the Seanchan too. This goes into my huge problem with the end, but I'll save it. 

I had a tough time with Egwene being leashed. Not that it wasn't well-written, and a necessary plot for her character development. It always just made me nauseous. That scene didn't help either.  I wonder what the non bookers are thinking. This is a major development happening quite fast. I hope it doesn't last as long in the books. 

I thought Ishamael was a little nuts? He seems more calculating right now. What does "Mat was born mine" mean?! Because no. The actor is killing it though.

Unless Ishamael *wants* Mat to blow the horn? 

I don't know if I mentioned before, but I wonder if they're going to ever show the prologue. Maybe when "Lews" starts talking to Rand, he'll have a vision. As if Rand isn't freaked out enough. 

22 hours ago, quarks said:

the "boys" are incompetent

I don't think she means all the boys. Hopefully the two that we don't want on the show. Sammael has to be out already if he's going to be all Brending it up fairly soon. Probably Demandred. It's not like Ishamael couldn't have released them. He's not going to tell Lanfear anything. 

11 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

So the change to having the seals needing to be broken to release Forsaken is interesting. I think I like it as a change, rather than having them all just randomly showing up at different times.

When was this established? There's only 7 seals. If they're letting 8 out, then there's going to be a math problem.

 

[quarks]

39 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I know because of tv it's probably too hard to do, but didn't the Seanchan talk kind of slurry? 

Robert Jordan stated in a number of interviews that the Seanchan accent is basically a Texan drawl. It's a very deliberate callback to Texas's Confederate history, with the damane.

45 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm not sure it was a good idea to age up all the Aes Sedai too much. The Foresaken always called them children, but if they're centuries old, then you have to have the Foresaken up in the thousands. That's stretching out the Age of Legends for a long long time. It doesn't look like Moiraine is that much older than Lindsay Duncan, but Verin saying 'centuries' seems a little much. 

 

I just checked The Wheel of Time Companion again. (Very useful book for this show!)

Verin was born in 849 NE. The series starts in about 998 NE, so she should be about 150 by now.

HOWEVER.

As far as I can tell they seem to be eliminating the whole "using the Oath Rod shortens your lifespan" thing, especially since they can't really do the whole ageless look for television, so...it makes at least some sense that many of them would be older, since we know that the channelers who don't use the Oath Road easily live to be 400 or so.

Mesaana tells us that when she was 300 she was barely into her middle years, presumably expecting to live to be somewhat over 600.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Can't Lanfear Travel?

I was going to say that because Traveling needs a specific destination, it's not useful for chasing someone. But then again she would have to know that they'd be headed for the stables and could have Traveled there ahead of them.

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I've never been a fan of the Children since the start. The concept of an independent army isn't unheard of, but I could never buy it at that scale.

Well, they're not an unmoored army, they're essentially the military dictatorship and army of Amadicia.

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

What does "Mat was born mine" mean?!

Probably that he's steeped in sinfulness and cynicism.

[DoctorAtomic]

150 makes sense, but she said "centuries" on the show. I don't know why that wouldn't be sufficient because looking at Verin, you'd think another 100 years or so and she'd be old age. 

How old is Cadsuane in the books? She was said to be the oldest. 

You can't really have the Foresaken being more than 500 - 600 or so. It strains credulity having someone 1000 years old. 

I still think you can say the Oath rod shortens life because you can say they live 250 or so. 

I think I gave my Companion book away. 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

How old is Cadsuane in the books? She was said to be the oldest.

293 when The Eye of the World starts.

[DoctorAtomic]

But did she do the Oath Rod? 

[quarks]

31 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

But did she do the Oath Rod? 

Yes.

A number of characters who didn't are older than Cadsuane.

[DoctorAtomic]

All right, so maybe 350 is the normal life span with the Oath Rod. That still seems fair for the show. The Forsaken then could push up to 600. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

But did she do the Oath Rod? 

Yes, you can't go from Accepted to Aes Sedai without it.

[Avaleigh]

In the books I just finished the part where Taim has decided to actively start looking for men who can channel instead of waiting for guys to show up. For the second time Lews tells Rand to kill Taim and I'm starting to wonder if Taim isn't some other reincarnated dude like Rand is. He might not even be aware of it, but Lews can tell that something is up with this guy.

I'm also starting to wonder if Taim *is* crazy but is just doing a good job of hiding it for now. How else is he able to avoid the curse of the taint? Maybe he's crazy but is focused crazy. Like he has some insane longterm goal and is able to keep from openly going over the edge because he's laser focused on achieving that goal.

More than that I'm wondering when the show is going to start incorporating this thing where Lews is ijnRand's head. Maybe by season 3. 

I'm very curious to find out where Moghedien ends up in all of this. The show made a point of mentioning her and Graendal but not Semirhage. Based on the little I've seen of Semirhage, I figure she'd warrant a mention when Lanfear was dropping names on the show.

I can't decide what Elayne and Nynaeve should do about Moghedien. On the one hand, I feel like they should come clean before she somehow manages to escape (or kill one of them). OTOH I worry how this fractured Aes Sedai will handle learning about one of them having a relationship with one of the Forsaken for what seems like weeks at this point. What if they overreact with their punishments? 

[DoctorAtomic]

41 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Maybe he's crazy but is focused crazy. Like he has some insane longterm goal and is able to keep from openly going over the edge because he's laser focused on achieving that goal.

There are "functioning alcoholics." Taim could just be really tough. He always struck me as a guy who could deal out some punches. 

[Avaleigh]

20 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

There are "functioning alcoholics." Taim could just be really tough. He always struck me as a guy who could deal out some punches. 

Maybe he's tougher than the average guy and that's why the taint hasn't addled his brain yet. 

I forgot to add one other thing--I'm wondering if Taim's long-term goal is to eliminate female channelers. Or at least greatly subdue them. It's the way he says that he'll soon have as many channelers as they have in the White Tower. What if he wants to take over the White Tower? The only thing that doesn't work about this to me is he must know that Rand doesn't want that and that Rand is stronger than he is. Maybe he's crazy and deluded enough to think that Rand will eventually be on board with this idea since Rand has said some things that indicate he really doesn't like the Aes Sedai. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I can't say I'm a fan of Taim, but he's got a legitimate argument against the women. 

They never really got into the false Dragons much. In the sense that they legitimately thought they were the Dragon, but were proven not to be. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

14 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

They never really got into the false Dragons much. In the sense that they legitimately thought they were the Dragon, but were proven not to be. 

Well, some of them did and others (some of whom couldn't even channel) did it for the attention. I think Taim was in the latter category.

[DoctorAtomic]

Taim could legitimately channel, and he was really strong. At the time, there's no reason to think he wouldn't be the dragon. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

22 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Taim could legitimately channel, and he was really strong. At the time, there's no reason to think he wouldn't be the dragon. 

Maybe, but he strikes me as the type to have claimed it because he wanted power and not necessarily cared if he was really the Dragon, or even necessarily have believed that prophecies are a legitimate thing as long as his followers did.

[DoctorAtomic]

I can buy that too when he was originally supposed to be who everyone thought he was.

On the other hand, powerful male channelers was rare. So if Taim is just a guy, what's he going to think? Taim saying, 'Well, I'm going to milk this' seems entirely reasonable to me. However, being a powerful channeler doesn't mean he didn't think he might actually be the Dragon. 

I don't place much stock in prophecies either, but they're a big deal in this universe because of the wheel. So they're both predictions and historical records even if they're nonsensical most of the time.

Even Moiraine wasn't ever big on them. I always laugh when she asking Rand what the hell he's doing, and he says, 'well, the prophecy says this is what I do here', and she's all, 'no, that's not how it works.' So even she doesn't really hold hard and fast to them.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm finally getting around to taking a crack at the Origins book!

 

[areca]

On 9/11/2023 at 10:24 AM, quarks said:

The Queen of Cairhein appears to be a change from the books? I've seen some speculation that she is going to turn out to be Morgase, but as far as I know that's just speculation.

This show is a freakin' abomination from casting to storytelling.  Unless you've read the books nothing makes sense, and if you've read the books, what they're doing is infuriating.  It's pretty critical that Morgase be Elayne's mom FFS!

I'm watching it just to find out how bad it can really get.  Perhaps to wash the taint of Game of Thrones from my memory.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, areca said:

This show is a freakin' abomination from casting to storytelling.  Unless you've read the books nothing makes sense, and if you've read the books, what they're doing is infuriating.  It's pretty critical that Morgase be Elayne's mom FFS!

I'm watching it just to find out how bad it can really get.  Perhaps to wash the taint of Game of Thrones from my memory.

Three things: one, while Morgase hasn't been name dropped yet as far as I can recall, the last two episodes have confirmed that she's not the Queen of Cairhein. So that speculation turned out to be entirely wrong, and - if I may - I don't think it's entirely fair to criticize the show based on fan speculation about future episodes that turned out to be wrong. I mean, you can criticize me for repeating that speculation and being wrong about the Queen of Cairhein - that's fair - but that's not on the show.

Two, and more importantly, I've read the books, more than once. So I can't speak for how well non-book readers are following the show. I can say, from my perspective as a book reader, that although I had a number of issues with the first season, and was less than happy with the (presumably unintentional, but still there) anti-Semitic moments in the first season finale, not only was I never infuriated, I'm genuinely loving the show so far this season, in part because of the changes that the show is making to the books. I like show Nynaeve much, much more than her book counterpart; I love what the show has been doing with Liandrin; and the scenes with Moraine and her sister just crackle even if they aren't in the books.

Three, the casting. Admittedly, we're most of the way through the second season and I'm still not entirely sold on Rand or Perrin, and of course other characters have been considerably altered for the show. But show Elayne IS book Elayne; this Lanfear is amazing; Madeleine Madden had a brilliant performance in episode 206; and Zoë Robins has managed the impossible and made me like Nynaeve, one of my least favorite characters in the early books. Even most of the minor characters are either spot on (Uno) or bringing more to the show than they could in the books (Ryma and Maigan.)

To sum up: I don't think the show is for book purists. But I also don't think it's infuriating for all book readers.

Edited September 22, 2023 by quarks

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, areca said:

This show is a freakin' abomination from casting to storytelling.  Unless you've read the books nothing makes sense, and if you've read the books, what they're doing is infuriating.  It's pretty critical that Morgase be Elayne's mom FFS!

I'm watching it just to find out how bad it can really get.  Perhaps to wash the taint of Game of Thrones from my memory.

Instead of being enraged over something you clearly don't have the full picture on, you should perhaps be aware that Morgase is still Elayne's mother, and is not Queen of Cairhien in the show.

The Queen of Cairhien is Queen Galldrian. In the books it was King Galldrian, a character who never appeared on the page. So... yeah, really significant change, there.

The point of the change is quite clear, and obvious to anyone actually watching. Barthanes Damodred is set to marry Galldrian Riatin, uniting the major houses of Cairhien. This wedding obviously won't happen, as we know Cairhien is going to fall into anarchy. In the books the anarchy happened because the domino effect of Rand playing politics ended up with Thom murdering the king. Considering Thom's actor wasn't available this season, they had to figure out how to effect the same chaos in the country that the books had.

And pairing that whole storyline with Moiraine's drive to succeed in her mission, even at the expense of her family, will make what happens to Cairhien even more bitter.

As for "the casting is an abomination," that's a shorthand I'm familiar with by now. I don't think you'll find much sympathy for it here.

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

To sum up: I don't think the show is for book purists. But I also don't think it's infuriating for all book readers.

I am absolutely not a book purist. Before the show aired, we covered a list of book problems, largely due to be written/published in the late 80s/90s, but also just not good things that bothered me as a 19 y/o even then. Plus, it dragged so much after Chaos. 

You're not going to make a tv show in 2023 with those issues for one, and the other, you're not putting on a tv show based on a book series unless you draw in the non book audience.  At least this show has the complete series to work off. 

So far, I don't really have a problem with the changes they made. Clearly, some of the changes won't pay off for a long time, but I appreciate they're looking at the series as a whole. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

and was less than happy with the (presumably unintentional, but still there) anti-Semitic moments in the first season finale,

What happened?

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Instead of being enraged over something you clearly don't have the full picture on, you should perhaps be aware that Morgase is still Elayne's mother, and is not Queen of Cairhien in the show.

Also, Elayne is still the Daughter-Heir of Andor, so while the name of the Queen of Andor hasn't been mentioned explicitly, it's vanishingly unlikely that it won't be Morgase.

[DoctorAtomic]

Five seconds in, and I want Egwene to tear the Seanchan to shreds. I wonder if they're going to shorten her time in bondage because it seemed forever in the books.

I don't get why the Seanchan never got got though. Or at least forced to give up their society of slavery. You'd think if anyone could break their society, it would be the *Dragon*. Everyone crowed about how he's going to break the world. You've got an invading force that enslaved people, and they basically got away with it. Not much breaking. Not that Rand didn't have a ton to do, but still. What kind of world are you fighting for if you're letting that go on?

If Ish and Lanfear are this fantastically evil, we're in for a treat with all the Foresaken coming up!

Logain teaching Rand is a far far far better narrative choice than the Asmodean nonsense we got saddled with. Can Logain see the weaves even though he's gentled?

I don't remember Elayne being so ride or die in the books, but she's fantastic. 

I'm seeing the Mat that I know now. I'm still slightly worried the show won't have Mat blow the Horn. Maybe Mat will just follow Rand from a distance. 

It looks like we still got a shot at Lan training Rand too. 

I really liked this new Yellow Sister with Ny too. tbh, it's not like Ny could have beaten the entire Seanchan back, but she could have level half of Falme without blinking.

I know the show is different from the books, so I'm hoping Egwene just convinced herself that she couldn't beat her slaveholder with a pot and is just holding off.

What I didn't like is when the slaveholder hung her up on the wall, "yeah, you're not going to let someone like me just hang on a hook. Knock it off."

 

[denise42]

Do you think they will show Alanna Mosvani bonding with Rand i know it was against his will.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, denise42 said:

Do you think they will show Alanna Mosvani bonding with Rand i know it was against his will.

I think they will. Alanna is a much more important, and likeable, figure in the show, so they're unlikely to miss the chance to shock the audience with that scene.

They've built up enough of Alanna's closeness to her warders that her being completely unable to deal with Rand would be a fun (albeit traumatic) angle to play.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't get why the Seanchan never got got though. Or at least forced to give up their society of slavery. You'd think if anyone could break their society, it would be the *Dragon*. Everyone crowed about how he's going to break the world. You've got an invading force that enslaved people, and they basically got away with it. Not much breaking. Not that Rand didn't have a ton to do, but still. What kind of world are you fighting for if you're letting that go on?

My sentiments exactly, and I was thinking about this again recently because the show is on. I think that unfortunately there's a current in American literature of being too forgiving towards slave cultures, given the country's own history. People don't want to come right out and say that the Confederates or the Seanchan deserved to be painfully incinerated en masse. Which is why Daenerys Targaryen was a refreshing change.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[quarks]

6 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

What happened?

 

1. Ishy was wearing a very traditional eastern European Jewish garment, frequently worn by rabbis. I am certain this was unintentional on behalf of the costume department, which was under extreme Covid-related stress at the time; a number of the garments in the season one finale seemed to be borrowed from costumers instead of created specifically for the show, and my guess is they were like, ok, it's black, it fits, we have bigger production issues, let's go.

Still, having the somewhat darker skinned, large nosed man wearing that outfit and getting defeated by a literal white savior - well, I got a bit twitchy.

But that said, although yes, this was something some of my Israeli/Jewish/Russian friends noticed, to be completely fair, many of my other Jewish friends did not. 

2. That same episode had a literal Evil Peddler, a stereotype often associated with anti-Semitism. And yes, that character is directly from the source material - which describes Padan Fain as having a large hook nose and a secretive smile, two other Jewish stereotypes. Add in the greed, and, well, that, a number of people, Jewish and otherwise, noted kinda immediately - there were some heated discussions about it back on the old Robert Jordan newsgroups and on Delphi forums - though I have no idea if the current showrunners are aware of any of that.

3. Add in that historically, Jews have been accused of consorting with demons or even being demons, and conspiring to destroy the rest of the world....as I said, I got a bit twitchy.

But again, I do not think this was intentional on anyone's part, and full credit to the costume department for finding something else for Ishy this season.

[SueB]

Loved:
- Lanfear is better in the series (for me) than the books. The way she killed Liandrin’s(who I love to hate) son was brrrrrrrr.  
- The breaking of Egwene was so powerfully done  
- The show has done a fabulous job of building up the Seanchan as a threat
- The hug with Mat/Rand 

Liked:
- I’m assuming Barthanes is a good guy vs book character.  I like that whole family dynamic  
- Rand going to Logaine for training is smart  
- Elayne/Nynaeve FTW   

Worried about:
- Min’s vision of May killing Rand.   It’s because ‘Min’s visions always come true’ that the poly relationship with Rand/Min/Elayne/Aviendha is marginally acceptable.’   I need that fixed  
- Lan bringing in the Amyrlin   

Hmmm
- Moraine cannot go a week without sleep.   She has GOT to take that stick out of her bum   

 

[DoctorAtomic]

It's not clear if Min's visions always come true on the show because that one is a new one. 

Is Barthanes in the books? 

[quarks]

30 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's not clear if Min's visions always come true on the show because that one is a new one. 

Is Barthanes in the books? 

1. Barthanes is in The Great Hunt. 

He's a Darkfriend, playing the Game of Houses. After Rand destroys several other invites, Barthanes sends Rand an invite, which Rand, Ingtar, Verin, Loial and Mat use to infiltrate his house to try to find the Horn and the dagger.

Right after that, Barthanes is murdered, and the civil war in Cairhein begins. 

2. In the show, Min seems to be able to see both visions of things that happen in this reality and in the World of Dreams. 

I think it's also possible that what she saw was Mat trying to kill someone who looks like Rand, but isn't Rand. We already saw both Ishy and Lanfear playing around with that in the World of Dreams.

[DoctorAtomic]

We know Rand gets the wound at Falme, so it could be Ish in disguise too. 

tbh, Carhein wasn't really a plot that drew me in. Although now, with the sandwiches, I'm more intrigued. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Is Barthanes in the books? 

2 hours ago, quarks said:

1. Barthanes is in The Great Hunt. 

He's a Darkfriend, playing the Game of Houses. After Rand destroys several other invites, Barthanes sends Rand an invite, which Rand, Ingtar, Verin, Loial and Mat use to infiltrate his house to try to find the Horn and the dagger.

Right after that, Barthanes is murdered, and the civil war in Cairhein begins.

Also, the Barthanes Damodred in the books is King Laman Treekiller's cousin rather than Moiraine's nephew, and his hair has started to grey.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Also, the Barthanes Damodred in the books is King Laman Treekiller's cousin rather than Moiraine's nephew, and his hair has started to grey.

The whole Moraine Family subplot is both very different and I find very welcome.  I think it goes a great deal in explaining the Aes Sedei culture: lleaving who you were and becoming dedicated to a family of ‘sisters’ and a mission.  The insight from the family perspective is really nice IMO.  
As for plot implications: 
- The civil war in Cairhein is not vital to the overall plot.
- Elayne having both the Rose and Sun throne is less important than her being out in charge of all the armies (which I assume will happen anyway). 
At this point, aI just want Moraine not to screw over her family anymore - she may not be able to protect them but I don’t want her to take action against them.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'd say Elyane having both thrones is important in the sense that it's two less headaches for Rand. Not that Elayne is just going to do what Rand says on the show, but she's not going to piss and moan about him being the Dragon or the Last Battle either. He's going to have his hands full with with Tear and Illian. I think there's a lot to mine there for tv because those people hate each other. 

I don't think Moiraine would take action against her own House, but if she finds out Bart is a Darkfriend, she's going to have to eliminate him. That would actually be a good plot because we've seen they've had a good relationship. She actually apologized to him. 

Will they bring the Sea Folk in to the show? I barely remember much except they helped with the bowl of the winds, but I don't know if they're essential. 

 

[quarks]

The Sea Folk transported Elayne and Nynaeve from Tear to, uh, another place, while they were hunting the Black Ajah. On the way they gave Elayne some training in how to control the weather with the One Power. 

They were also indirectly related to one of my later major AUUGH EGWENE AUUGH which I won't get into now, partly because Avaleigh isn't there yet and also because I don't think the show is going to do exactly the same thing with that.

What I will get into now, in terms of upcoming potential events in the show, is how this last episode may impact my reaction to an upcoming relationship/plot development, spoiler tagged because Avaleigh isn't there yet:

Spoiler

Mat/Tuon

I won't lie: this relationship had its amusing moments in the books, especially the whole Mat accidentally marrying Tuon bit. But, overall, I hated it - I never liked Tuon; I didn't like the way she treated not just Mat, but multiple other people; and I didn't like the way she kept accusing everyone in Randland of making stuff up. I realize that Robert Jordan was incredibly fond of that narrative trick where a character criticizes other characters for behaving in a certain way while doing just that same behavior, but while that was kinda funny with, say, Nynaeve, Tuon's whole squawking about superstition, to the point of hitting people over this, while being completely dependent on omens, was aggravating.

But mostly, I really, really, hated the way Tuon continued to embrace the entire damane thing, even after months of hanging out with Aes Sedai who were obviously capable of going around unleashed, and even after being told that she and other sul'dams could channel. I mean, I get it: it's difficult to completely drop beliefs ingrained in you since childhood, but....we saw other Seanchan, when faced with counter-evidence, reconsider their beliefs. We even saw one agree to become Egwene's Warder! And yet Tuon is all, I don't care if we're facing the Last Battle or not; I don't care if sul'dam can channel; I am going to continue with this brutal slavery system. It's appalling.

That was difficult enough in the books. In the show - now that I've seen and can visualize the damane "training"/breaking system, and have seen this happen to other Aes Sedai - I don't want to see a romantic relationship of any sort between anyone who champions this and Mat. 

Fingers crossed that this is something that the show either drops completely, or changes. A lot.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Are the Sea Folk necessary to the show though? I think you can accomplish what they need to without them. Even in the books, Moiraine or some others would say, "the last battle is coming, so the pattern is spinning out super channelers". She could learn it on her own because she's so powerful. No one taught anyone balefire. Ny learned about healing without teaching. 

As for the rest, 

Spoiler

That's basically what I was saying last night. It's the *breaking*. There's millions of prophecies about the Dragon tearing the world apart to save it. Last time, it was literal, in terms of the geography, so I figured this time around it would be political. To a point, it was. But I don't think getting Tear and Illian on the same side is that much of a breaking. Even if Rand didn't have the time to deal with the Seanchan, Mat was there. Sure, he got them to buy in to the actual battling of the last battle, but still.