Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

So, I'm still getting through the Lord of Chaos.

This is where I started just slogging through to the end. Logain being healed was a great scene, and there are more great scenes, but as a whole, I was just grinding through. 

There's a prophecy you've already seen that may provide some clues for Logain. 

 

[Avaleigh]

On 4/7/2024 at 5:39 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

This is where I started just slogging through to the end. Logain being healed was a great scene, and there are more great scenes, but as a whole, I was just grinding through. 

There's a prophecy you've already seen that may provide some clues for Logain. 

 

I will say that the book has definitely picked up steam now that I'm more than halfway through. I just got to the part where they told Egwene that she's going to be Amyrlin.

It's strange that they'd want someone so young in the role. I'm not sure how much time has passed at this point, but it feels like it's been no more than two years since the events in the first book. Her experience level is certainly unique, but do they even know how much time she's spent with the Wise Ones and do the Aes Sedai even value the training that she received with them?

One thing that seems to be in Egwene's favor is the fact that she didn't get the chance to choose an Ajah. They don't have to worry about her being loyal to any specific Ajah. She hasn't really spent enough time with the Aes Sedai to have formed preferences or attachments. I'm just wondering how this is going to effect her relationship with Gawyn. Will she even have time for him now that she's Amyrlin. Are they even allowed to marry?

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

It's strange that they'd want someone so young in the role.

Because they thought they could control her more easily.

You can look up online resources for a timeline, but Lord of Chaos took place over less than a week. That's why I knew it was going to be a slog. 

[quarks]

On 4/7/2024 at 4:03 PM, Avaleigh said:

 

Also, now that Nynaeve has learned how to do what no other Aes Sedai has been able to figure out, shouldn't that fast track her to being raised to full Aes Sedai? Is it really necessary for her to continue to have to scrub pots and pans at this point? Their organization really sucks at times. The Tower is fractured, they're lucky to have the people they do have on their side, but they persist in treating two of their most loyal and hardworking members like shit. Makes no sense.

 

OMG, yes, this.

It made at least some sense when they were novices. Some. And I can certainly see a group of rebels agreeing that hey, we need to share chores for a bit, at least until this situation gets solved. 

BUT, the full Aes Sedai aren't doing any chores! They've hired servants! And they are forcing Nynaeve and Elayne, two extremely powerful channelers who are also on good terms with the Dragon Reborn and at least a couple members of the Sea Folk, to waste time/energy doing chores instead of doing virtually anything else.  

It was so frustrating. 

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

BUT, the full Aes Sedai aren't doing any chores! They've hired servants! And they are forcing Nynaeve and Elayne, two extremely powerful channelers who are also on good terms with the Dragon Reborn and at least a couple members of the Sea Folk, to waste time/energy doing chores instead of doing virtually anything else.  

Not to be corny, it's the same thing as the Jedi council sniping that Anakin didn't "do the tests" even though he's proven himself 1000 times over in an actual war. I think that's the point though; the institutions can't get out of their own way to their own peril. 

 

[quarks]

So you're saying that the Aes Sedai could have saved themselves a lot of trouble if only - if ONLY - they had watched more Star Wars movies?

[DoctorAtomic]

Only the good ones. 

[Perfect Xero]

Star Wars is just another Age on the wheel

[Which Tyler]

12 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Only the good ones. 

Anakin isn't in any of the good ones

[DoctorAtomic]

He was good in Clone Wars. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 4/9/2024 at 12:51 PM, Avaleigh said:

Are they even allowed to marry?

All Aes Sedai are allowed to marry, the fact that they rarely do is voluntary and also a consequence of their differences from most people.

On 4/7/2024 at 4:03 PM, Avaleigh said:

(I can't recall if Leane is a character on the show)

Yes, Leane is in the show: https://wheeloftime.fandom.com/wiki/Leane_Sharif

Edited April 11, 2024 by Noneofyourbusiness

[SueB]

*BIG weave of wind blows dust off thread*
 

Hello!   It’s been a minute!

I scanned thru comments last year and thought I’d crank up the thread again after seeing the first 11 minutes of S3 in the Media thread.  

Gorgeous visuals.

First, my POV: yes, I like the books better - but this series is an interpretation I appreciate. And you can’t beat the visuals  

Book to show forecast:

1. Woah - nice Battle of The White Tower (11 min sneak peek).   We didn’t get that in the book.   Very different.  Although not seen - I’m wondering if Suian is stilled (accidentally) in the fight or deposed later.  

2. Rhuidean - seems to focus on Moraine’s visions. Consistent with Moraine as main POV of TV show. 
 

3. Definitely get the Battle of Edmunds Field and Perrin as leader.  Glad for that. 
 

4. Rand as Car’a’carn - definitely get but I’m not sure how much.  I hope we see the Wise Ones.  I hope we get Rand and Mat into Rhuidean but it sure feels they’ve dropped the Snakes and Foxes.  Mat’s my favorite character in the books but he’s not getting a much development in the show.  
 

5. I don’t know WHAT they are doing with Min.  Could go anywhere.  
 

I just reread series up thru Shadow Rising so memory is fresh for S3. 


 

 

[iarwain]

I'm watching this show and I'm also reading the books.  I'm only on the third book, and just started the third season.  All I can say is, regarding the show:  Everything is all mixed up and out of order and also different.

Some things on the show I'm not sure if I just haven't gotten to in the books yet or if they are just inventions of the show's writers.  It's all a bit confusing, but it's okay.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 hours ago, iarwain said:

I'm watching this show and I'm also reading the books.  I'm only on the third book, and just started the third season.  All I can say is, regarding the show:  Everything is all mixed up and out of order and also different.

Some things on the show I'm not sure if I just haven't gotten to in the books yet or if they are just inventions of the show's writers.  It's all a bit confusing, but it's okay.

They've changed the order of events so that the Tear stuff hasn't happened yet, but definitely seems to be set up to happen next season, if there is one.

[quarks]

18 hours ago, iarwain said:

I'm watching this show and I'm also reading the books.  I'm only on the third book, and just started the third season.  All I can say is, regarding the show:  Everything is all mixed up and out of order and also different.

Some things on the show I'm not sure if I just haven't gotten to in the books yet or if they are just inventions of the show's writers.  It's all a bit confusing, but it's okay.

They've made a number of changes, but the only outright invention of the show's writers that I can recall offhand is/was the addition of Perrin's wife.

They are definitely taking things out of order this season, though. The Black Ajah taking off with a number of magical items and killing a few people along the way happens off screen in book three, and Gaebril and Faile also make their first appearances in book three, but other things this season are from book four.

 

[SueB]

EP1: Full Book/Show thoughts.  Spoilers thru Book 4 as this Season 3 seems to cover Books 3 & 4 at least.  

- Seeing Liandrin flee the tower and take stuff. Epic battle.  This gave us a better story than the book IMO with regards to how this went. 
- Nynaeve and Lan sleeping together!  I know the show aged them up a bit and sex is definitely all over the place, but ai liked the depth of the relationship.  I wish we could have had more of their big kiss but her getting the ring was awesome.  As was her recognition that just running away and having babies is not going to work for them.  
- I’m glad we saw that some of Mat’s buffoonery was his pain.  I didn’t like him showing off the horn.  I love when he speaks the old tongue. I saw a red doorway in Tar Valon.  I hope he goes through it. 
- I think changing Perrin’s motivation to go home was well done.  I loved all three boys together again. The comraderie and teasing about Selene!  But I think they all miss home a bit.
- Elayne and Aviendah!  Wowser.  Did not expect.  No objection, BTW.  It’s in keeping with the much more sexualized version of the show and will help smooth out one of the most AWKWARD elements of the entire book series.  
- I’m glad they focused on Egwene’s PTSD.  That was well earned and explains a lot of motivation for the character.
- Yay for introduction of grey men.  And Moghedien’s arc is far more involved - which I like.  

[Danny Franks]

I liked the change to the bubble of evil - making it a construct that Lanfear uses to push Rand into action - because it just felt a bit... strange in the books. It makes sense when you understand the nature of the Dark One, but I don't think the show can pile on too many different shades of the same evil. Just make it simple.

Not sure about Rand and Egwene. On the one hand, I really like how they're using it to highlight Egwene's PTSD and the lingering effects of being collared. But on the other, they need to make this relationship break cleanly and relatively painlessly at some point, especially as Rand is going to spend most of the season in the Aiel Waste with Aviendha.

I really like Mat being more communicative about the memories, and actually asking Nynaeve for help. It shows remarkable growth from last season, but it also departs from an aspect of most of the book characters that would get very tiresome for most TV audiences - that people never communicate and explain what's going on with them and that they need help. Mat doesn't need to suffer and pretend he's fine.

It seems like they're folding Semirhage into Moghedien, which makes a lot of sense for the creepy factor. Freezing someone's blood just to show how much it hurts is such a Semirhage move.

[quarks]

34 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Not sure about Rand and Egwene. On the one hand, I really like how they're using it to highlight Egwene's PTSD and the lingering effects of being collared. But on the other, they need to make this relationship break cleanly and relatively painlessly at some point, especially as Rand is going to spend most of the season in the Aiel Waste with Aviendha.

 

I liked the way the show subtly emphasized that Rand and Egwene aren't together because they want to be together or are meant to be together or are even good together, but out of trying to cling to the past for whatever reason. Egwene even says some of this out loud in the first episode - noting that when she's with Rand it feels just like it did back in the Two Rivers, aka back when they both agreed that this wasn't going to work out because Egwene didn't want the whole marriage/kids thing. Rand says he just wants to go home - and his previous visions of home have always included Egwene.

But Egwene immediately notes that it's not working, and that she's still freaking out, and - in blatant contrast to Nynaeve who decided to tell Lan everything about the Arches - decides not to tell Rand about what happened in the Arches. Rand, meanwhile, hasn't bothered to tell Egwene the little teensy tiny little fact that he didn't just sleep with someone else while they were apart, he slept with one of the Forsaken, and I get that this is a hard thing to tell anyone and that Rand also didn't tell his other best friends about this, but I can't see any sort of relationship surviving that sort of thing.

Which is why I'm very interested to see how the show is going to be handling this, because as you say, this relationship needs a clean and relatively painless break. Clean I think they can manage - I honestly don't see show Egwene staying with Rand if/when she finds out about Lanfear. Painless, though - I dunno. This seems like a major betrayal, and I'm wondering how the show will handle this.

51 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

It seems like they're folding Semirhage into Moghedien, which makes a lot of sense for the creepy factor. Freezing someone's blood just to show how much it hurts is such a Semirhage move.

They name-dropped Semirhage during the Forsaken meeting, so I think she's still showing up. Moghedien has supposedly be combined with Aginor, who will not be showing up.

[DoctorAtomic]

Kudos to the actor playing Mat for the Old Tongue. It's not like the character is learning a new language; he has to be instantly fluent. 

And a nice touch with the guys playing Snakes and Foxes. 

Did anyone ever say "Ishy" in the books? The show just pluck that out of fandom for a easter egg! Outstanding. 

I was ho hum on the new season because it's been so long, but I am firing on all cylinders now. We're going to have the Tower split, Callandor, and E1 already set up the Moiraine/Lanfear showdown. That's a lot to pack into one season. You've got to end the season on them going through the door. 

It looks like they're going for Av/Elayne? It's probably better and more modern they develop a relationship first. Nothing wrong with the three of them and Rand being poly, but in the books it was very mormon to me and highly offputting. I think it's a good narrative choice for the show. 

I also liked how Rand had on his famous jacket when Egwene was being tested. Speaking of her, the show is making her way hardcore so early. I would think they're probably also ending the season on her being elected to the Seat. Hopefully, Perrin raises the banner. 

I was *dying* to see Maiden's Kiss. I'm surprised we got it so soon!

I'm also glad they got to Mat's memories so soon. That dragged too long in the books too. 

I guess they're mixing up going to the Waste before Callandor now? They're certainly speeding up!

2 hours ago, SueB said:

And Moghedien’s arc is far more involved - which I like.

Yeah, you need that now for the payoff with Ny. 

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It looks like they're going for Av/Elayne? It's probably better and more modern they develop a relationship first. Nothing wrong with the three of them and Rand being poly, but in the books it was very mormon to me and highly offputting. I think it's a good narrative choice for the show. 

Some folks claim there had always been a gay subtext to their relationship. I never noticed that in the books but it's been a while since I read them and I've forgotten a lot of things. I do however remember that Rand and his harem gave me a bit the ick - it was one of the reasons I did not finish the series - so I'm quite happy to see them change those dynamics a bit. 

[DoctorAtomic]

You're going to be getting a lot of content from me. I didn't realize there were three episodes, and it's still a cold Saturday. I was done with errands and chores and wasn't up for video games. 

I can't say I'm looking forward to a major Morgase plot. I found it plodding in the books, and it really only served for Rand to learn balefire. If he figured it out somewhere else, that would be ok with me. Though, I guess we're going with 'Gaebril' too. Hopefully, they'll compress the plot. I am really looking forward to how they'll render balefire. 

I like how they're dropping the hint about Gaebril. I hope it's enough for the nonbookers to pick up on. Huge drop on 'bringing Mat back from the dead' that I don't think they'll pick up on. 

I'm really glad we're seeing Lan train Rand in the sword. And trying to be a mentor. 

Other than Tear and Callandor, book 5 had to be my favorite, and I'm psyched that we're getting there so soon. I hope they can capture how hilarious the Aiel really are. 

They're getting to Egwene Dreamwalking quick too. And a quick reference to Bryne. 

Was Elayne always a big drinker in the books? It's a good character trait, but I don't remember. 

I may have asked before, but can everyone see everyone channeling? Moiraine looked like she could see Rand channeling. 

 

7 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I never noticed that in the books but it's been a while since I read them and I've forgotten a lot of things. I do however remember that Rand and his harem gave me a bit the ick - it was one of the reasons I did not finish the series - so I'm quite happy to see them change those dynamics a bit. 

For sure. Like I said, nothing wrong with being poly, that wasn't it in the books. Jordan's world would not hold up in 2025. It's a much better change. There was a stark lack of consent in the books. I mean, I got to a point where the whole "Men!" "Women!" was giving me a headache. 

One of the reasons why I thought Jordan ended up his own ass and didn't really have a continuity editor to bounce concepts off. In the Age of Legends, men and women channeling was why it was such a golden age. To be fair, Rand and Ny did show that, but the Last Battle fell completely flat to me.

 

Edited March 15 by DoctorAtomic

[Danny Franks]

14 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Some folks claim there had always been a gay subtext to their relationship. I never noticed that in the books but it's been a while since I read them and I've forgotten a lot of things. I do however remember that Rand and his harem gave me a bit the ick - it was one of the reasons I did not finish the series - so I'm quite happy to see them change those dynamics a bit. 

There's a line in The Path of Daggers that says something like, "in the darkness, they shared another secret together," that makes it sound like they're banging, but I really think RJ just meant that they took the chance to talk at night about Rand and their feelings for him.

Other than that, I don't think there was really any gay subtext to their relationship. They literally adopt one another as sisters. Unfortunately, some people always interpret love between unrelated people as sexual.

Egwene and Elayne both seem to think that Aiel sister-wives have sexual relationships with each other, because they both think of whether they could share a man and find it incredibly embarrassing to consider. But the Aiel themselves are vague on it, and I tend to think it just depends on the three people in question.

But I do think the world has changed quite a bit since RJ wrote these books in the 90s, and as strange as Rand having three women read back then, it would be flat out unacceptable to most viewers of a TV show in 2025. So having the girls be into one another does make sense. But I really don't know how they're going to fit Min in, because she hasn't even met Elayne in the show (I've only watched the first episode of season 3) and has still only met Rand once.

If it was up to me, I'd make a more radical departure and make Min and Mat a pairing, which spares us from having to pretend we like a woman who keeps other women as slaves, just because Mat likes her.

3 hours ago, quarks said:

I liked the way the show subtly emphasized that Rand and Egwene aren't together because they want to be together or are meant to be together or are even good together, but out of trying to cling to the past for whatever reason. Egwene even says some of this out loud in the first episode - noting that when she's with Rand it feels just like it did back in the Two Rivers, aka back when they both agreed that this wasn't going to work out because Egwene didn't want the whole marriage/kids thing. Rand says he just wants to go home - and his previous visions of home have always included Egwene.

But Egwene immediately notes that it's not working, and that she's still freaking out, and - in blatant contrast to Nynaeve who decided to tell Lan everything about the Arches - decides not to tell Rand about what happened in the Arches. Rand, meanwhile, hasn't bothered to tell Egwene the little teensy tiny little fact that he didn't just sleep with someone else while they were apart, he slept with one of the Forsaken, and I get that this is a hard thing to tell anyone and that Rand also didn't tell his other best friends about this, but I can't see any sort of relationship surviving that sort of thing.

Which is why I'm very interested to see how the show is going to be handling this, because as you say, this relationship needs a clean and relatively painless break. Clean I think they can manage - I honestly don't see show Egwene staying with Rand if/when she finds out about Lanfear. Painless, though - I dunno. This seems like a major betrayal, and I'm wondering how the show will handle this.

I agree with all this, and didn't mind too much when Rand and Egwene tried to be intimate and she freaked out. It did feel like two people falling into an old, comfortable pattern but finding it didn't fit any more. But I didn't like the button to the scene, where she says she wants to try again, and it seems like they did end up having sex (I might have to rewatch to be sure, but that's how it played to me). The writers already have a very difficult needle to thread with Rand and his women, without dragging out his relationship with Egwene.

Edited March 15 by Danny Franks

[MissLucas]

32 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I mean, I got to a point where the whole "Men!" "Women!" was giving me a headache. 

LOL! Yeah, that was another reason I did not finish. Almost every relationship between men and women had to have this antagonistic dynamic. 

 

21 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

But I really don't know how they're going to fit Min in, because she hasn't even met Elayne in the show (I've only watched the first episode of season 3) and has still only met Rand once.

There's a good chance they will go down that route, especially as this Min is really quite different from the Min of the books. For the life of me I can't picture her jumping on Rand's lap.

[DoctorAtomic]

33 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

But I do think the world has changed quite a bit since RJ wrote these books in the 90s, and as strange as Rand having three women read back then, it would be flat out unacceptable to most viewers of a TV show in 2025.

I don't know. I think you could do it better than it was in the books. The show is showing there's all sorts of relationships, with Alanna being quite free, but Ny being more traditional. I don't have anything against Elayne and Av hooking up at all, and I think it's actually a good choice to do it first before they get into Rand because it does give them more agency in choosing to be in a poly relationship with him. However, I don't think it's necessary that they had to hook up first to modernize the relationships or give them agency. For Av, poly relationships are the norm in Aiel society already, so it's not as huge of a leap. On the other hand, I applaud the choice for TPTBs to establish a more fluid sexual world than there was in the books. tbh, I found Jordan to be woefully sexually immature. 

I'm wondering how or if the show is going to deal with all the spankings. 

10 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

There's a good chance they will go down that route, especially as this Min is really quite different from the Min of the books. For the life of me I can't picture her jumping on Rand's lap.

If they left Min out, it wouldn't bother me, but you kind of need the three of them if you're going for the King Arthur all of this has happened before and will happen again with Rand. He still needs to set up shop in Carhein, and Min basically becomes his Regent. They have plenty of time for Rand and her to get together. Of course, how the other two accept Min into the relationship needs to be ironed out for the show. 

 

[SueB]

On Min:

If they get another season and he ends up being kidnapped with Min, I can them becoming emotionally reliant on one another.  I do like Min but I’d be okay if she just was left off the pairing.   She helps Rand a tremendous amount in the books and she’s a great character, but a third is hard to sell. 
Conversely, I don’t want her with Mat if they are trying to make the Seanchan a thing in the last Battle.  His vouching for Rand made a difference.  And we need Mat in charge of the Army of the Light.  Including the Seanchan.  
Now I could see there being only ONE Battle (at Shayol Ghul, outside the cave) but why have the Seanchan if you aren’t going to use them? I could see Min still being Tuon’s doomsayer. 
Although I agree, we are going to have to have some sign that Tuon is going to come around on Damane because it’s too awful to accept.  

On Morgause,
She lost all my sympathy with killing her enemies    I wouldn’t mind if they have Rahvin kill her off.  She created enemies by killing her enemies’ daughters   I think Elayne will face a challenge  regardless   
 

Rahvin,

I found it fascinating that it was implied he compelled an entire NATION to think that he and Morgause had been together for years   I bet it didn’t take with Garrett Byrne.   
 

Speaking of Byrne: I don’t see Siuan and him getting together with her attachment to Moraine.

Other Ep2&3 comments:

- I like Nynaeve’s conflictedness about Liandrin   Personally I feel like hissing when she is on the screen but I get the pathos they are going for.   And Liandrin’s got a good story. I just don’t like her.   

- I like Elayne being a drinker   She needs a fault   
 

- I do like this Min.  She’s fun with Mat and he needs a companion unless they bring Thom back.

- Thankfully we got the quarterstaff ass whipping scene. Mat is capable even without the memories.   I think the point of the scene in the book was to show that.

- Shohreh Aghdashloo is an outstanding choice for Elaida.  Frankly, she’s likely to be better than book Elaida.  

- looking forward to next episode.   

 

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, doesn't look like they're keeping Gaebril that much of a mystery. I actually would have liked the reveal to be a little more later on to see if the nonbookers guessed it. 

And we're getting a list of all the Foresaken out there. No Aginor or Baal. 

If Eliada is supposed to be really old, then how old are they going to have Cadsuane be?

Oh, how I am so glad to see Rhuarc. 

Is Lord Luc the whole Slayer nonsense? Not a fan. 

Mat is my favorite, and I think the entire story is as much as his than Rand's. I am enjoying how their dealing with his voices. Obviously, we know why, but the way they're developing it should have a better pay off. I can't wait till he starts kicking everyone's ass. 

Oh, no, Faile. 

 

Lots of tidbits in E3 for the bookers. 

 

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

Conversely, I don’t want her with Mat if they are trying to make the Seanchan a thing in the last Battle.

No, they have to stick to the Daughter of the Nine Moons. That's way too big to leave out. They're showing the Odin vision; I think they have to stick to the Mat plots. 

16 minutes ago, SueB said:

And we need Mat in charge of the Army of the Light.  Including the Seanchan.  

He's too essential. 

17 minutes ago, SueB said:

I found it fascinating that it was implied he compelled an entire NATION to think that he and Morgause had been together for years   I bet it didn’t take with Garrett Byrne.   

Because Byrne is too bad ass. But you don't have to convince the entire nation. Just the people around in the palace. Then it just gets out that she's had a consort and maybe wasn't ready to reveal the relationship publicly. 

19 minutes ago, SueB said:

I don’t see Siuan and him getting together with her attachment to Moraine.

She does get stilled, and thinks Moiraine is dead. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

When do they do the circus? 

Anyone watching the 'Inside the Episodes?' The showrunner is hilarious. He's also kind of bonkers because there's no way the Liandrin was so great in the books because she was 'humanized.' Eliada was probably worse. It's been far superior writing for the show and the actors themselves that are making the antagonists three dimensional. 

 

Edited March 16 by DoctorAtomic

[quarks]

I believe the circus first appeared in book five, correct? And then again in a later book? 

I have no idea if the circus will be in this show.

Regarding Min: I, too, am curious about what exactly the show intends to do with Min, one of the most changed characters from book to screen. My guess is that this is because - as Min herself thinks in a later book - that for all her ability to predict the future and prophesize for others, she is almost always a supporting character, not a leader. She joins the Wonder Girls in Falme, but that's largely Egwene's story, not hers. She then goes back to Tar Valon, but that's largely Siuan's story, not hers. She then hangs out in Salidar for a bit - again, as part of the Aes Sedai story, not hers. Then she goes to Rand - and becomes part of his story, not hers. She only finally sorta gets her own story in the last book.

And that in turn provides some amazing opportunities for the writers, since she's literally the one character who doesn't absolutely positively have to be anyplace for a particular plot point - which means that she can be any place, as needed, for whatever particular plot. As we saw last season, and so far this season.

If that includes an upcoming Min/Rand romance, well. I think we've had just enough setup to make a Rand/Min romance believable - he's clearly ok with being with someone older, and they both share a history of kinda/sorta working with Forsaken, something none of the other show characters on the side of the Light, other than Moiraine and Lan can say so far.

And Min did make that "three beautiful women" comment back in the first season.

But....she hasn't seen him since, in contrast to the books, where she did spend time with him between books two and three, before heading back to Tar Valon. And in contrast to Egwene, Lanfear, Elayne and Aviendha - all of whom have spent a lot more time with Rand, both on and offscreen. So....if that is where they are going with this, I think they are going to have to give Rand and Min that same sort of time, either on or offscreen.

[DoctorAtomic]

12 minutes ago, quarks said:

She only finally sorta gets her own story in the last book.

I think I said last year or sometime that she was digging around in the library in Carhein about the nature of the wheel and what Rand could do in the end. Rand had speculated that if they bored into the Dark One in the Age of Legends, there has to be a turn of the wheel where there isn't one again.

The books really gave short shrift to the whole philosophy of the wheel beyond most of the modern day people saying bland mantras. In the show, they could have Min more featured in that role, and maybe have her spur Rand to his final idea for the whole switcheroo. 

I think Min was also reading the prophecies, so they could have her do that in more depth too. 

If they can get all the way to Carhein, then you could get a lot of Rand and Min time. Elayne is already picking up the pieces at Andor at that point, and Av is still following him around. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

9 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Not sure about Rand and Egwene. On the one hand, I really like how they're using it to highlight Egwene's PTSD and the lingering effects of being collared. But on the other, they need to make this relationship break cleanly and relatively painlessly at some point, especially as Rand is going to spend most of the season in the Aiel Waste with Aviendha.

And at some point, if they're following the books, Egwene needs to meet Gawyn; I wonder how that will transpire.

4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I may have asked before, but can everyone see everyone channeling? Moiraine looked like she could see Rand channeling.

In the books at least, female channelers can see other women channeling but can't see or sense men channeling; male channelers can sense both women and other men channeling but not see it per se. Non-channelers can't see or sense anything.

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

If it was up to me, I'd make a more radical departure and make Min and Mat a pairing, which spares us from having to pretend we like a woman who keeps other women as slaves, just because Mat likes her.

Yes, especially in a 2020s TV series, the only way Tuon is going to come off sympathetically is if she has a major change of heart, realizes that collaring damane (not to mention slavery in general; the Seanchan do have other slaves) is wrong, and abolishes the institution.

That's my gripe about the way Sanderson ended the series, actually. If the Dragon Reborn is going to destroy and remake the world, then he should destroy that institution, not just put kiddy gloves on it.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

On Morgause,
She lost all my sympathy with killing her enemies    I wouldn’t mind if they have Rahvin kill her off.  She created enemies by killing her enemies’ daughters   I think Elayne will face a challenge  regardless  

 

Rahvin,

I found it fascinating that it was implied he compelled an entire NATION to think that he and Morgause had been together for years   I bet it didn’t take with Garrett Byrne. 

 

- Shohreh Aghdashloo is an outstanding choice for Elaida.  Frankly, she’s likely to be better than book Elaida.

The people Morgase had killed were High Seats who had been her rival claimants from the succession war, not their daughters. Only one of them was a young girl (because her mother must have passed away when she was young). And she had them killed by members of their own families/houses who presumably then took over, which ties those people to her for life because they have their positions because of her and they did it publicly so everyone knows it.

As Doctor Atomic alluded to, the common people not in Morgase's immediate orbit will just hear her consort being mentioned and likely not think much of it as it won't matter to their daily lives if he's new or not, and if they do meet later him in person then they'll begin remembering him anyway. Although Rahvin could certainly go on walks/parades through Caemlyn if he wants to Compel the people en masse.

I support Elaida being a more competent and intelligent antagonist than she was in the books. In fact, that applies to Rahvin, too, with his playing Backstory Invader (link to the TV Tropes Wiki page for the trope); in the books, he was much less subtle and more obvious.

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Well, doesn't look like they're keeping Gaebril that much of a mystery. I actually would have liked the reveal to be a little more later on to see if the nonbookers guessed it.

 

She does get stilled, and thinks Moiraine is dead.

I, too, thought the Rahvin reveal would be drawn out more, as I mentioned in the episode thread.

Someone on either tumblr or reddit suggested Siuan could be in Moiraine's Tower of Ghenji rescue party instead of Thom, and I wouldn't be opposed.

Edited March 16 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Danny Franks]

Episode 2 - I really loved seeing Compulsion work in real time, as Gaebril inserted himself into the memories of everyone. It's so creepy. That moment of blankness when Elayne meets him, before the memory inserts itself.

And then he knows exactly how to interact with Elayne even though he's never met her before - joking effortlessly about Galad, knowing she likes to drink. There are so many levels to what he's doing with the One Power.

It seemed like the scene with Elayne and Gaebril put the notion into his head that he could get rid of all Morgase's support system - Elayne, the brothers and Elaida, and have her completely isolated. I wonder if that's why she agreed to let Elayne stay, and not anything Elayne herself said.

Galad and Gawyn are complete fuckboys. It's hilarious, and in keeping with the more modern take on sex and sexuality that the show has adopted. I guess Galad's ineffable sense of right and wrong won't quite be the same, which is fine. Him just being a stiff, self-important prick is more than enough.

[DoctorAtomic]

I wish they didn't reveal Gaebril so soon just to see his strategy play out. I don't think Morgase was under compulsion letting Elayne stay. She's the heir and is going to be treated differently. 

But Gaebril said that there's no way she's let all the kids stay at the Tower, and then in the end you see they are staying. And Eliada stayed. But instantly they reveal Rahvin. 

They could have used two more scenes of Morgase being increasingly isolated before the reveal. 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

It seemed like the scene with Elayne and Gaebril put the notion into his head that he could get rid of all Morgase's support system - Elayne, the brothers and Elaida, and have her completely isolated. I wonder if that's why she agreed to let Elayne stay, and not anything Elayne herself said.

I thought Rahvin actually wanted Elayne back in Andor like he said (else why try to convince her to come back in their scene together?), but who knows?

The writers may not have thought of this, of course, but it occurred to me it would be in keeping with this more cunning portrayal of Rahvin than in the books to leave some subliminal programming with Elaida, Galad and Gawyn before leaving them at the Tower. At least, I would if I were he.

[DoctorAtomic]

I guess we're coming at it that we didn't know Rahvin until the end in the books, and it really wasn't set up well. We already knew that Andor was a powerful nation because they had already spent some time there before Rand et al., went for Callandor and then into the Waste. 

Without all that setup, which would have been hard for tv, maybe TPTBs want to focus on the Foresaken plot to weaken Andor, which in itself can be subtle since nonbookers are only seeing it right now as some GOT queen of a big nation. Knowing who he is now may allow for the understanding that Andor is a big deal and really a huge win if the Foresaken can take them off the map. None of the principals are actually in Andor right now, so knowing already that there's a Foresaken there shows it's important, and you don't need tons of expository scenes. 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think I said last year or sometime that she was digging around in the library in Carhein about the nature of the wheel and what Rand could do in the end. Rand had speculated that if they bored into the Dark One in the Age of Legends, there has to be a turn of the wheel where there isn't one again.

I mean, sure, but once again, that wasn't her plot. It was Rand's.

Virtually all of the other major characters on Team Light have something they need to do or become - Nynaeve has to become the world's greatest Healer (and queen of Malkier) and help clean saidin; Egwene has to become the Amyrlin Seat; Elayne has to become the first Aes Sedai Queen of Andor; Aviendha has to become a Wise One; Mat has to become a general and the leader of the Armies of Light; Perrin has to become a Wolfbrother and the leader of the Two Rivers (and save Faile, sigh, but, moving on); Faile has to rescue herself and others and accept her position as a ruler (sigh, moving on); Thom and Jain Farstrider have to save Moiraine, and then Thom has to guard people in the Last Battle; Lan has to become the king of Malkier and have an epic sword fight; Galad has to become the leader of the Whitecloaks and learn some nuance and have an epic sword fight; Gawyn....ok, Gawyn just has to become less annoying and wow does he fail at that; and so on. Even the minor supporting characters usually have something to do: the team in the White Tower have to find the Black Ajah; the team in the Black Tower have to try to root out Darkfriends; the Maidens of the Spear have to protect Rand; all of those maids have to prepare baths and so on.

And then there's Min. 

When we meet her in the books, she's already a Seer, who pretty much immediately knows that she either is or will be in love with Rand.

And at the end of the books, she's a Seer, who knows she's in love with Rand.

The only major difference is that she's now working for/with Tuon instead of Rand - something I tend to feel was Sanderson's attempt to even things out a little, but doesn't quite work because, well, after that, pretty much the only thing we see her do is join Elayne and Aviendha at the "funeral."

And that's it. She doesn't have any plot of her own.

She doesn't even have any real skill of her own. Even in book one, it's clear that she's one of two people who can predict the future; by the end, she's one of several - all of whom have multiple things to do. 

Min's main job in the Last Battle?

Clerical work. While she herself notes that other people are running around doing stuff.

And of course, by joining Tuon, she's joined the "let's enslave people, it will be great" group - putting her at odds with the other characters on the side of the Light.

This gives the show a lot of flexibility with Min - they can either give her a plot of her own (which they seem to be kinda doing with the "I need to atone for the Ishamael stuff" and the "wait, this other Seer is kinda giving me some solid advice here) - or just keep shoehorning her into other people's plots. I'm interested in seeing where they go with this.

[DoctorAtomic]

4 minutes ago, quarks said:

I mean, sure, but once again, that wasn't her plot. It was Rand's.

I know. I was suggesting a possible avenue for her that is also book related. She did help though was part of my point. The other part was that if they're going to get Min to be the third and they need plot for her and Rand together, she could be working on that with Rand when he finally takes Carhein. No, it wasn't her plot, per se, but she was still involved, and it's there for them to work off. The third part was that I would like to see more philosophical exploration into the wheel. 

They really never got into it much in the books, and then Rand was all of a sudden just there. He figured out himself on the fly that he wasn't actually supposed to kill the dark one. There wasn't much of the prophecies, or a plan going in except for play Ish for a fool. And, Ish had remarked before about the nature of the wheel to him. 

I think she has to be one of the three. They can back it out from there. 

29 minutes ago, quarks said:

Virtually all of the other major characters on Team Light have something they need to do or become

35 minutes ago, quarks said:

Virtually all of the other major characters on Team Light have something they need to do or become

Don't forget the bowl too. That's a huge quest.

[quarks]

44 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I know. I was suggesting a possible avenue for her that is also book

Don't forget the bowl too. That's a huge quest.

Sure on the Bowl - but that again just emphasizes how little Min gets to do in the books, since she's not even tangentially related to that plot, even though that plot includes Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, Mat, Lan, and various random Aes Sedai, Wise Women, Sea Folk and royalty.

And don't get me wrong - I like Min. I especially loved it when she turned out to be a bookworm and wannabe scholar - she would have been an amazing Brown or White Ajah. That's what made her lack of her own plot all that more frustrating for me.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm rooting for Min to be the scholar too. I have criticisms of how the book ended. Not Sanderson's writing; I actually though the books picked up a lot when he took over. Having Min majorly factoring into the end, but intellectually, would be a nice complement to Mat who obviously is the architect, militarily. And, really, Mat was only buying time for Rand. 

Rand isn't really much of a deep thinker, and he doesn't have time for it either. 100 million people are pulling him in a billion directions. Literally no one is on his side and he somehow has to unite the world. There's not much time for philosophical discussions. Min could be that on the show. 

[SueB]

I totally agree about letting Min’s story be about interpretation of the prophecies.  That’s her domain.  

[Danny Franks]

15 hours ago, quarks said:

Sure on the Bowl - but that again just emphasizes how little Min gets to do in the books, since she's not even tangentially related to that plot, even though that plot includes Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, Mat, Lan, and various random Aes Sedai, Wise Women, Sea Folk and royalty.

And don't get me wrong - I like Min. I especially loved it when she turned out to be a bookworm and wannabe scholar - she would have been an amazing Brown or White Ajah. That's what made her lack of her own plot all that more frustrating for me.

Min the scholar. That always seemed very weak to me in the books. She starts reading and it turns out she really gets this philosophy stuff, and she figures out that the turning of the Wheel means that the Bore has to be effectively undone. Okay. I mean, Herid Fel already figured that out but died before he could reveal it. And Rand doesn't even try to do that until he realises that destroying the Dark One won't work.

My biggest problem with Min in the books is that she seems to exist to be Rand's crutch - the doting, devoted woman who always tells him he's doing fine and always defends him against criticism, even when he's absolutely off his rocker. And that is the side of her that most of the "Min is waifu" types latch on to - the loyal, devoted woman who follows her man wherever he goes and supports him unquestioningly. These are the same people who usually hate Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve because they're too bossy or too boring. And they're always the types who seem to read the series as a male power wish fulfilment, with no other level to it.

They unironically say the end of Dumai's Wells is the coolest moment in the series. They love scenes where the women "get put in their place," by men. They are the worst of the WoT fandom.

I get that RJ may have felt like that was a valid interpretation of what being a woman can be, and I suppose there are a lot of women who are like that (and a lot of men who would like them to be). But it makes Min the least interesting female character in the entire series, from my point of view.

I'd be all for the show making her more interesting and independent, but I think what they've demonstrated so far is that she's actually superfluous. Pairing her with Mat has given her a slight reason for existing, but otherwise she lifts right out and nothing is changed.

[DoctorAtomic]

5 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

And Rand doesn't even try to do that until he realises that destroying the Dark One won't work.

That's not technically destroying the dark one. He's just unBoring the Bore. I thought it was a clever solution. I could understand Rand arriving at the conclusion that people need to *know* the dark one is real, but he kind of didn't do that either. 

Min isn't waifu in the show, so that's an improvement at least. 

[iarwain]

On 3/15/2025 at 12:45 AM, quarks said:

They've made a number of changes, but the only outright invention of the show's writers that I can recall offhand is/was the addition of Perrin's wife.

I'm almost done with the third book (The Dragon Reborn), just so you know where I'm coming from.  What about the part in the show where Morraine lost her powers?  I don't remember that in the books, or is it coming up later?

Definitely the part where the Amyrlin made the girls hounds included Egwene, not just Nynaeve and Elayna.

I did read the part where Mat beat the swordsmen with a quarterstaff not that long ago, so it was nice to see that play out on the screen.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

9 hours ago, iarwain said:

What about the part in the show where Morraine lost her powers?  I don't remember that in the books, or is it coming up later?

Show-original.

22 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

That's not technically destroying the dark one. He's just unBoring the Bore. I thought it was a clever solution.

I feel like you misread what Danny Franks wrote, 'cause DF contrasted undoing the Bore against destroying the Dark One ('Min realized they should do the former but Rand didn't even think about it until he realized the latter wouldn't work'), but your response reads as if you thought DF said undoing the bore was destroying the Dark One.

Edited March 18 by Noneofyourbusiness

[quarks]

Moiraine's power level thing is not a show original, but it also doesn't happen in book three. Cutting for major spoilers for book five and book thirteen: 

Spoiler

As Moiraine later explains, after she and Lanfear fall through the stone doorway and explode it, she is seized and slowly drained of her powers. By the time Mat and Thom pull her out, she is so weak in the One Power that she can barely use it at all. She can't even start a fire - something show and book Egwene were able to do well back in the first season/The Eye of the World, without training. Moiraine later has to use an angreal to be able to do anything with the Source at all, and even with the angreal, she's not back to full power. 

So not the direction the show took, but not a show original, either.

[DoctorAtomic]

In addition to Moiraine, you also have the unstilled women and men who aren't as strong as before too. 

The show is fast and loose with the power and wielder strength. The books are way more, dare I say, scientific. 

On the show, they just all wreck shop. Which is a lot of fun. In the books, some women had different strengths, so they go to different Ajahs. They also said that women weren't as talented in certain elements compared to the men and vice versa. I'm not sure that opening battle in the season opener plays out the way it does in the books because the Greens were the only really battle Ajah. Yellows aren't cutting people in half. No one was using water either. Basically, they've only shown the power to be either a melee weapon or a shield. They've shown healing, but not nearly as intricate. 

No way book-Moiraine has the level of skill to heal Ny after 11 stabbings. 

I know it's hard to translate to the show, but it's not impossible. 

In the books, Moiraine isn't particularly strong either. But she chose Blue for a reason. Sure, she was strong enough for general defense, let's say, but she's not making a big fire dragon in Falme. 

I do think you lose some nuance. It's kind of a downer in a way because there was a lot about how you weave the threads to make wards, shields, what Elayne is going to do, how Egwene learns to Dreamwalk, literally anything Rand can figure out. All the new stuff they end up discovering. So viewers are missing out a bit. 

I did like that when they showed Rhavin and all them meeting up that they showed Traveling. I hope that becomes as big an impact as it did in the books. I mean, it's key to the last battle. 

[quarks]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

No way book-Moiraine has the level of skill to heal Ny after 11 stabbings. 

I know it's hard to translate to the show, but it's not impossible. 

In the books, Moiraine isn't particularly strong either. But she chose Blue for a reason. Sure, she was strong enough for general defense, let's say, but she's not making a big fire dragon in Falme. 

 

Book Moiraine isn't the strongest user of the One Power - but she's still considered pretty strong - she's one of the strongest in the White Tower other than Cadsuane at the start of the books.  That is, equal to Elaida, Siuan, Romanda and....that's kinda it. Verin even makes a point of this in Book Two, The Great Hunt, when discussing who can use the Choedan Kal, saying that only a very few women would be able to use it - the Amyrlin Seat (Siuan), Elaida, Moiraine, and "a few still in training." (Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve.) That's it.

At this point in the books, Cadsuane, Romanda and Lelaine hadn't been introduced yet, and it's quite possible that Verin thought that Cadsuane and Romanda were dead or at least no longer actively working as Aes Sedai, though my own personal theory is that RJ decided at around Book 6 or 7 that he wanted more powerful channelers and did quite a bit of retconning which is how and why Romanda, Cadsuane and Lelaine all popped up as new characters at Moiraine's strength or stronger, and suddenly other strong channellers popped up too.

But even given that retconning, Moiraine is still considered to be a strong channeler - really outmatched only by the Forsaken, Rand, Logain, Taim, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, and a few minor characters. She's much stronger than most of the channelers mentioned in the books.

Whether or not Moiraine has the ability to target all of those ships and create a blazing fire dragon is another question entirely, especially given how much using the One Power exhausted her back in season one.

[DoctorAtomic]

She still doesn't have the skill to heal 11 stab wounds. The show isn't really showing strength in what areas. 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

18 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

In addition to Moiraine, you also have the unstilled women and men who aren't as strong as before too.

And they discover that's because they were healed by someone of the same sex (as I suspected after

Spoiler

Siuan and Leanne were weaker after being healed by Nynaeve but Logan was as strong as before).

 

19 hours ago, quarks said:

Moiraine's power level thing is not a show original, but it also doesn't happen in book three. Cutting for major spoilers for book five and book thirteen: 

  Reveal spoiler

As Moiraine later explains, after she and Lanfear fall through the stone doorway and explode it, she is seized and slowly drained of her powers. By the time Mat and Thom pull her out, she is so weak in the One Power that she can barely use it at all. She can't even start a fire - something show and book Egwene were able to do well back in the first season/The Eye of the World, without training. Moiraine later has to use an angreal to be able to do anything with the Source at all, and even with the angreal, she's not back to full power. 

So not the direction the show took, but not a show original, either.

Moiraine having been shielded by Ishamael is show-original. If

Spoiler

she goes through the gateway with Lanfear and is weaker after she's rescued

then she'll go through something similiar again on the show, but this time not completely unable to channel.

[DoctorAtomic]

If they're showing a lot of Lan training Rand with the sword, who is he going to use it on? By book 5, Rand already used in on the Seanchan guy iirc.

The flame and the void finally comes up. I also wonder if that comes more into play when Rand eventually busts the shield. 

I hope the nonbookers know that Lan is Kenobi. No one beats Lan. No. One. 

I've said before that 5 is my favorite by a mile even with minimal Mat, but it's a lot of exposition into the Aiel for a tv show. Even though they're speeding it up massively. They're already going through the rings 20 minutes into the fourth episode. It does make some sense because that sets a lot of action in motion, but I guess we miss out on a lot of character development and Aiel world building. 

I don't know if the nonbookers are going to grasp the impact of the Aiel and the Lost Ones being the same people because of the accelerated pace. It was literally years ago when they showed the Tinkers, and they only had the one scene in the last episode. For me, when I read it, was a bomb. And that's a problem with having seasons of a show being millions of years apart now. You miss huge things like this. 

They've accelerated the friction between Moiraine and Rand a lot too. It's not unearned, but it seems kind of jarring to me if I didn't read the books. 

They did fit in the exposition of the Aiel War well. 

Makeup on Rand through the rings was outstanding. Good choice on going back to the first time they used the veil and kill to have it resemble Rand, Mat, and Perrin. 

I guess they didn't want to confuse non bookers with Da'shain Aiel or Jenn Aiel. 

This was a lot if you didn't read the books. I'm surprised they crammed so much into one episode. I mean, I know you want to do all of that at once, but there wasn't really any setup to what either of them really learned. 

I don't understand television production that you only get 8 episodes every 50 years apart. You'd think 10 might be ok?

[Danny Franks]

Adding Janduin to Rand's past lives was smart, to ensure that it's clear to the viewer what's going on. But man, I wish they hadn't had him kill unveiled. I have to assume some producer said that they needed Josha unveiled so people could see it was him. But we should never, ever see an Aiel kill when they aren't wearing their veil. That should be rule no.1 of putting the Aiel on screen.

And then they had Lewin kill that bandit without his dust veil up. So those two choices really undermined the moment where Lewin raised his veil and signified that he was a new type of Aiel.

The veil (to hide the shame of killing) and the refusal to touch swords are two remnants of the Way of the Leaf, which makes them such a tragic part of Aiel culture.

I liked that they changed Sevanna's way of drawing attention from "look, boobs!" to a more striking and bonkers appearance. I don't like that they gave the Shaido black cadin'sor. Or that the Aiel in the Rhuidean flashback all had such different looks. I get that they want to show there are different clans, but the thing about Aiel is that they could always tell what clan someone was from, but no one else could.