S01.E05: Episode 5

[Guest]

Airs April 13, 2020

Quote

After learning the family has been selected for a forced relocation, Herman looks to make a challenge in court; Bess gives Herman an ultimatum when violence breaks out at a rally for Lindbergh's most public liberal challenger.

 

[AimingforYoko]

I was thinking Philip threw Seldon over the side pretty quick. At least he had the grace to feel shitty about it.

[buckboard]

Herman was right that electing Lindbergh would be bad for the Jews, but he was wrong to think he could do anything about it.  He should have listened to his wife before it was too late.

[AimingforYoko]

41 minutes ago, buckboard said:

Herman was right that electing Lindbergh would be bad for the Jews, but he was wrong to think he could do anything about it. 

Herman is the loudmouth from Jersey and Bess is the diplomatic, quiet one. But he's the idealist and she's the cynic. He knew Lindbergh was a disaster, but he believed in America. Bess knew better.

[scrb]

Ironic that Herman is the newsreel and political junkie but Bess sees what’s really going down.

She should have made the ultimatum earlier but how is she going to take the boys to Canada and support them?  Probably rougher for a single mother back then.

They knew enough not to go to Kentucky.  What would be the point, he wasn’t going to sell many insurance policies there.

Unfortunately, I don’t think Canada would be a long term answer.  Without the US entering the war, the Nazis would eventually break through over Russia.  Then either US invades Canada or stands by while the Germans do — Lindbergh doesn’t care about the Monroe Doctrine.

Even before military action, Germany and US could economically strangle Canada.

[scrb]

One thing which should be noted.  Evelyn definitely caused the Levin family to be transferred to KY.

She assumes because Sandy didn't get lynched there during a brief stay that it's fine for the whole family to live there.

She said it's for their own good because the FBI wouldn't hassle them there.

Then she had the neighbors sent there, because she thought Philip was best friends with that kid.

Was she oblivious to the discrimination they'd likely face or that Herman probably wouldn't be able to keep his insurance job there?

Or was it deliberately trying to screw them over, including her own sister and nephews?

 

 

[izabella]

I don't think Evelyn got the family on the "deport to Kentucky" list.  I think that's her husband's doing because he can't stand Herman and Herman's challenge to his views.  I think Evelyn just goes along with her husband because she has turned into his accomplice out of her desperate need to be married.  I do think, however, that she absolutely got Seldon and his mom on that list, though. 

Canada may not be utopia, but Bess is 100% right to get away from the US and her sister's husband.

[MrWhyt]

14 hours ago, scrb said:

Was she oblivious to the discrimination they'd likely face or that Herman probably wouldn't be able to keep his insurance job there?

Or was it deliberately trying to screw them over, including her own sister and nephews?

 

 

she drank the kool-aid, she's fully bought into "Lindbergh is a great man" hype. Anything he proposes is good, and her sister and the family will come around if they just see "the truth", if they're made to see "the truth".

[Milburn Stone]

This episode made me really sad.

I keep feeling like it's what really happened, instead of a counter-factual. I think that means the show is really great.

On another note...That scene at the wedding where the two synagogue officers tried to buttonhole Bengelsdorf, regarding the decline in membership? I had the feeling that one of them was David Simon in a cameo. The voice sounded like his. I could be completely wrong, though.

 

[SeanC]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:47 AM, scrb said:

Without the US entering the war, the Nazis would eventually break through over Russia.

That's anything but guaranteed.

[scrb]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

That's anything but guaranteed.

Well under Lindbergh, US never does Lend Lease, presumably.

US poured billions in materiel to all the allied nations, including over $30 billion to the U.K.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

Lend Lease started in 1941.  Even with Lend Lease, US had to enter the European theater, though Soviets were tying up a lot of German resources.

Even if Lindbergh doesn’t directly send troops against allies, it helps the Axis because Germany Doesn’t have to fight a U.K. being supported by Lend Lease.  Same for Russia, which also got over $10 billion in 1940s dollars.  Or China which got US aid to fight off Japan.

That means a stronger Japan which doesn’t have to fend off the US in the Pacific Theater can attack the Soviets from the eat or from the south through China.

[Milburn Stone]

Related to everything you just wrote, @scrb, the other show I'm watching, Babylon Berlin (Netflix), which takes place in the last years of the Weimar Republic, is educating me as to how serious the Communist threat was in Germany before Hitler. In a word, serious. I always knew there were rich industrialists who backed Hitler because of fear of a Communist revolution in Germany, but I always thought their fears were exaggerated. BB is showing me that they weren't. It helps explain why there was widespread support among the German people for conquering Russia and overturning the Russian Revolution. (And probably significant support among Americans for Germany doing so. The idea that Communism could spread through the West wasn't mere paranoid fantasy.) 

The link between Communism and Jews (let's face it, I'm pretty sure Jewish membership in the Party was disproportionate to Jews' share of the total population) may have fueled anti-Semitism in Germany, and here. And may partially explain the heavy involvement of the FBI in the show's universe.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[DoctorAtomic]

The actor playing Bess did a great job silently fuming in the living room when Herman was reading the letter to the kids. And, in a switch, loud mouth Herman was actually quiet and willing to eat it to the sister. 

Bess is has been way hard on parenting these past two weeks. 

I actually thought it was a good idea that Herman was entertaining quitting. I'm not sure he'd have trouble finding another job in Newark, and I don't get the impression they were scraping by.

Seriously dude - Missoula is fine. You getting a big ass house. Clean air. I would way prefer there than Kentucky. 

As was her silent mortified reaction to the Rabbi's blackmail.  I love Turturro in everything, but the Rabbi needs to get got. Ditto Ryder. I don't think Philip really cares about the ins and outs of going to the White House. Credit to their talents for sure. (I hope Omar has an ancestor strutting around somewhere). 

Wow the older brother hasn't curbed the mouth though. 

I do like that Alvin has seemed to bounce back from the injury. 

On 4/14/2020 at 6:04 PM, scrb said:

Was she oblivious to the discrimination they'd likely face or that Herman probably wouldn't be able to keep his insurance job there?

Or was it deliberately trying to screw them over, including her own sister and nephews?

Last week, there was a good discussion about the Rabbi's willful ignorance, and I think that partly applies here, but instead of screwing them over, it's more like proving to Bess that she's right and she's going to show them by making them go there and live. I think the brief conversation with Sandy and Bess underscores it - It's for our own good; she's protecting us. 

Evelyn clearly imo has genuine affection for the children and wouldn't send them off out of spite. In the last episode she wanted to showcase Sandy's experience as a success of the program and had him talking to other kids about it. 

I can't imagine Herman hasn't been a hot head for like ever, so Evelyn probably isn't getting honked off about it now. 

I don't mean to excessively post, but the show has really drawn me in and being a Simon et al. fan, the worldbuilding and attention to detail has been predictable top notch. 

[DoctorAtomic]

23 hours ago, scrb said:

Well under Lindbergh, US never does Lend Lease, presumably.

US poured billions in materiel to all the allied nations, including over $30 billion to the U.K.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

Lend Lease started in 1941.  Even with Lend Lease, US had to enter the European theater, though Soviets were tying up a lot of German resources.

I can roll with most of the show, and this makes sense, but I'm still having a hard time rolling with the Russians actually losing. I mean, you don't start a land war in Asia.

16 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Related to everything you just wrote, @scrb, the other show I'm watching, Babylon Berlin (Netflix), which takes place in the last years of the Weimar Republic, is educating me as to how serious the Communist threat was in Germany before Hitler.

This is actually in my queue. 

On 4/13/2020 at 9:07 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Herman is the loudmouth from Jersey and Bess is the diplomatic, quiet one. But he's the idealist and she's the cynic. He knew Lindbergh was a disaster, but he believed in America. Bess knew better.

I wasn't expecting Winchell to get fired and turn into a politician. I'm not surprised Herman was going to the rally. Chilling that the cops looked on while the nazis went in to beat on everyone. 

I don't fault Bess' position, but I want her to get around to being ride or die. 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[MrWhyt]

14 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Last week, there was a good discussion about the Rabbi's willful ignorance, and I think that partly applies here, but instead of screwing them over, it's more like proving to Bess that she's right and she's going to show them by making them go there and live.

the rabbi sees his program not as making people less Jewish but more American, and in theory these concepts shouldn't be in conflict. He doesn't see that scattering Jewish families across the country, their culture will almost certainly eventually be submerged by the surrounding population.

[DoctorAtomic]

Yes that I think is the willful ignorance part of it. I think there's also a lot of smugness on his part given the breakfast discussion about the Klan. 

[Starchild]

I can't really explain why, but I'm beginning to feel more and more sympathetic to Bengelsdorf. I really do think that he believes he's doing right by his people, but the scales will be ripped from his eyes soon enough. He's going to hit the ground hard, and I'm not sure he'll survive the fall.

[izabella]

In my view, Bengelsdorf thinks he is superior to other Jewish people - better educated, more worldly, and smarter about politics and America and just about everything.

[DoctorAtomic]

Yeah that's what I get from him too. He's incessantly prideful. He had a smart answer for Bess for everything she said. You're going to run out of smart answers for your people when the shit really hits the fan. 

He's killing the role though. I actually like the actor so much that I feel bad that I want the character to get his. Same with Ryder. 

[txhorns79]

52 minutes ago, izabella said:

In my view, Bengelsdorf thinks he is superior to other Jewish people - better educated, more worldly, and smarter about politics and America and just about everything.

I do think he envisions himself as doing right by the Jews.  I don't get the feeling from him that he sees himself as better than other Jews, but I agree with you that he views himself as politically more astute.  I got the idea from his meeting with Ford and his staff, that he at least recognizes that his plans aren't working out the way he thinks they should. 

On 4/17/2020 at 12:22 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

Chilling that the cops looked on while the nazis went in to beat on everyone. 

I thought it was more chilling that the radio report on the rally made it seem like the crowd were the ones who were violent, and that Wenchell had directed them to attack "innocent" bystanders.  There is your conspiracy right there.         

I do feel like we are getting a little bit rushed into the final episode.  I appreciate they did a nice job building things up, but it feels like the last episode is going to have to accomplish a lot to bring things to a conclusion.   

[DoctorAtomic]

There's only one more episode?

[txhorns79]

1 minute ago, DoctorAtomic said:

There's only one more episode?

Yes, I'm pretty sure it is only a six episode miniseries.

[Guest]

I'm really enjoying this series -- it took awhile for me to get in the groove with it. It's not a pleasant watch but a compelling story.

Bess dancing with the Nazi and seeming to revel in the moment was stomach churning. She, like her now-husband are willing to sell themselves (and her family out) for any sort of political glory. It's sick and it's sad. It also warms my heart that she's forced to wear his dead wife's jewelry. 

3 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I appreciate they did a nice job building things up, but it feels like the last episode is going to have to accomplish a lot to bring things to a conclusion.   

I agree. I think six episodes is rather sparse. I feel like the series just took off in the last two episodes. 

Oh, and I cannot stand Sandy. What a little shit.

And so long, Seldon! The actor who played him was adorable. I'm surprised the mother didn't just quit her part time job with Metropolitan Life and find another one so she didn't have to go to Kentucky.

[scrb]

Wow I would have never guessed there was one more episode left.

The description talks about election day.  So either 1942 or 1944?

But in this episode they were still around 1941?

So if it only goes to 1942, then all the later stuff we've been speculating about, like all the concentration camp news coming out around 1944-45 won't even be in there.  Or in the absence of Pearl Harbor, how the rest of the WWII finishes.

I guess the book must not go out that far.

[Starchild]

I think the opening chyron for this episode said "April 1942", and some dialogue mentioned the midterms hasn't happened yet, so the presidential election is 1944. I think some of the campaign material was printed like that as well.

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, scrb said:

But in this episode they were still around 1941?

The title card said 1942 for this episode iirc.

[wanderingstar]

Everyone in this cast is doing an amazing job, but Zoe Kazan was the MVP of this episode. She gives Bess so much heart and restrained rage (not just at the anti-Semitism and stark changes brought forth by Lindbergh's administration but at Herman and his desire to mouth off about Lindbergh to anyone who will listen).

[Spartan Girl]

It's really hard not to hate Sandy. Yes, he's being manipulated but geez.

As for the rabbi, maybe a part of him thinks he's got other people's best interest at heart, but it's so clear that he's in it for himself.