S02.E05: I'll Stand By You

[backhometome]

39 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I don't like how she goes on about Vlamis either; it reminds me of that one time Shonda Rhimes said she pressed herself against the screen and pretended Patrick Dempsey was talking to her.

It's mostly that she seems to take such care in making sure Alex is the wounded one. It's not that she is putting a ton of thought into Alex as his own person, it's more how she writes the pairing. This is the first episode in ages where I felt like she gave Michael a legitimate reason for having abandonment issues where Alex is concerned. Michael frequently is written as angrier and more of a jerk in their scenes, while Alex goes out of his way to help him. 

Interesting because I feel like this ep. gave Alex a legitimate reason for leaving Michael in the first place. Whereas last season it seemed like he left right after Michael got bashed by his father. But he really left later.

[ellieart]

My god this show is just so hilariously awful.  This episode was so over the top and convenient I'm pretty sure I hurt my eyeballs from all the rolling.  Does anyone else find the consent issues in this show a little alarming?  Like for all the times they're making the point about a person's choice, they're constantly stepping over that line.

Also, these characters are grown ass adults, they need to grow up and stop acting so immature.  It's not cute and it doesn't make for good television.  Carina should have kept them in high school if she wanted them to behave like this.  So much whining every damn episode.

I'm gonna need them to stop doing the flashbacks that require the de-aging effects, because it's way too creepy and weird.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I am SO HAPPY that there was finally a sense of urgency in the episode.  

Did Michael go get a tattoo at the end of the episode?  It showed him driving up to the tattoo parlor with a sketch of Max's ink?

I thought Bright Eyes as Max/Liz's love song, so why was it playing during Isobel's scene with Max?

I would be interested in seeing more of Michael's life when he was away from Rosewell as a kid/teen and was having these abilities all alone with no one to talk to about it. 

I realized that I don't like Alex's haircut- it always falling in his face, and not in a good way.

I like Alex better in his scenes with Maria, and his budding friendship with his Kyle. 

 

[Cristofle]

55 minutes ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I thought Bright Eyes as Max/Liz's love song, so why was it playing during Isobel's scene with Max?

Everything in his...whatever, dreamland, was focused on Liz. The milkshake, the lab table, the yearbook, the Jeep and the song. Isobel was entering into his space, and it was extremely Liz-centric.

Re: Alex, I agree, he had the right to leave. Like Maria said, he grew up in an abusive home, and Michael was erratic and had rage issues. Still, I can also see how Michael would have felt abandoned, that Alex left without saying good-bye. 

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Cristofle said:

This is the first episode in ages where I felt like she gave Michael a legitimate reason for having abandonment issues where Alex is concerned. Michael frequently is written as angrier and more of a jerk in their scenes, while Alex goes out of his way to help him. 

What, all that jerking around of Michael that Alex did last season is not reason enough for his abandonment issues? Again, I don't see where Alex went out of his way to help Michael last season, except towards the end and that's when Michael sees his missing mother being blown to pieces after being tortured for 70 years. The reasons are there, an entire season's worth of it.

This season the dynamic is different because Michael is affected by what happened at Caulfield, has lost Max and does not want a relationship and is not trying with Alex, while Alex tries to help. So yeah it comes across as Michael being a jerk - but this does not exist in a vacuum and it follows from last season where Alex treated Michael pretty badly.

I also don't listen to the showrunner's interviews or their obsession with specific actors or whatever. I base my opinions from watching the show.  I think Kyle is the best written character on the show and Trevino does a good job. Liz and Max got the most development and screentime and are obvious central characters. I would say Michael spends a lot of time supporting Max and Isobel and being stuck in the middle of a love triangle than getting a story that's about himself. So I am not seeing this favoritism that everyone's talking about.

Maria would be more interesting if she actually got a story other than her sick mother. Alex is just plain boring, and that emo hair falling all over his face does not help - I thought the military require haircuts. I feel like he's also the worst actor in a bunch of mediocre actors.

I do agree that I can see a clear bias from the showrunner favoring Alex/Michael over Maria/Michael in terms of the love triangle and that's a pity. Maria and Michael seem more fun for the few minutes they are together, but they hardly get any screen time. It's obvious that the showrunner disdains writing for Maria and is busy distributing the character's OG relationships/plots among the male characters. That she racebend the character as black and then did this is even worse. The sheriff's deputy who got abducted last episode - Cameron - has more screentime and an actual plot than Maria does and she is not even a regular.

It makes sense that the actors are only promoting Alex/Michael if the showrunner is only intent on pushing that romance forward. What is there to promote about Michael/Maria when the show refuses to give us anything of substance regarding this couple. We are 5 episodes in and they have probably spend like 5 minutes together? Compared to all that time Michael/Alex got last episode frolicking in the barn....

None of Maria's friendships are all that well written either because again, she barely has any screentime. She is supposed to be Rosa's best friend - but we got no scenes between them as opposed to Liz, Kyle and even Isobel.

So character who actually gets the best focus and writing -Kyle. Character who gets the worst focus and writing - Maria. Everyone else in the middle.

Edited April 15, 2020 by anamika

[Emily Thrace]

5 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

 

I'm pretty sure he's been covering it with a bandage all season so far and yea, I just assumed it was so no one would notice it'd been healed.

I think its also due to the hand injury being something the actor had as a childhood injury that was written into the script. So either Vlamis was able to have his injury repaired over the break and they're hiding a bandage or a brace or their hiding that the actors hand is still messed up.

[Cristofle]

Carina's writing for Maria is just so disappointing, and it's not even just Michael. Like...okay, she changed an OTP from the books and OG show from Michael/Maria to Michael/Alex. That doesn't explain why she's so thoroughly sidelined this character, why she seems so isolated, why the Liz/Maria friendship is not at all what it was in the books or the OG show. Liz and Maria's relationship was probably second only to Liz/Max in terms of how central it was to Liz's life and story in both the books and show, and now that spot is obviously filled by Rosa. So she took Maria's importance in Michael's life and gave it to Alex, and her importance in Liz's life and gave it to Rosa (who existed in the books, but was long dead of a drug overdose). 

Also, if Carina was going to give Michael another OTP, she could have also given one to Maria, but no, Maria appears to be an obstacle for Michael and Alex writing-wise. Or a stop in Michael's life before he returns to his apparent one true love. And even though I think she's probably going to tie Maria more into the mythology with whatever is going on with Mimi, that doesn't change how sidelined she's been up to now. 

[ellieart]

4 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think its also due to the hand injury being something the actor had as a childhood injury that was written into the script. So either Vlamis was able to have his injury repaired over the break and they're hiding a bandage or a brace or their hiding that the actors hand is still messed up.

Pretty sure Vlamis doesn't have any injury to his hand.  It was purely a Michael Guerin plot point.  He's wearing a bandage over it to A. hide that it's healed and B. another reason that's yet to be revealed (per Carina's after episode Q&A)

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think its also due to the hand injury being something the actor had as a childhood injury

No injury to the actor's hand. Just a popular misconception.

I both felt like I was slogging through this episode and liked it.

So Arturo is beside himself in another room. I get it.
Dear writers: 
If you ever again have to explain the re-emergence of a human teen from 10 years in an alien stasis pod, try having her pose as her identical cousin from Albuquerque. Much easier to write around.

I hope to survive to see Vlamis in his next role.

I'm glad Rosa got a personality transplant. The rebellious teen routine was getting old.

 

[Bloga]

8 hours ago, Chick2Chic said:

I get it cause I have been there with fandoms that make me dislike a character or ship more than anything the character / ship has done or said.

Personally my issues with Carina are still about how poorly she treats Maria overall with regard to story + screentime and how much Carina has robbed that character she "fought so hard to be a Black woman" of pretty much everything in order to give it to others, namely Alex.

     I take all this talk of the showrunner fighting to cast a black actress as Maria with a huge chunk of salt, because she has the same story about the three aliens and Liz, as in, she said she wrote a letter to TPTB explaining why the aliens needed to be played by white actors, so she makes it sound like she had to justify her casting choices there...also she has mentioned it was really hard to find Latina actresses to audition for Liz, so the casting director told her they might have to cast a white actress, and again, the showrunner had to fight to cast a Latina...something doesn't add up...was every ethnicity a problem? Having time to kill and reading showrunner interviews is not a great idea, it makes it even more evident she is a self-congratulatory faux-woke fanfic writer who loves attention and comes across as a groupie, she has zero objectiveness, and it's easily influenced by personal friendships...being her friend does pay off, let me tell you. I think she lacks the maturity to be an effective showrunner. 

     Maria has lost out to Alex and Rosa, whatever elements made her a central character in the books and og series, they are now part of those two characters, so there isn't much for Maria to do or be apart from a caretaker to her sick mom...hopefully the likely alien connection will be explored at some point, this whole crack my mom's password but let's respect her privacy was a weak ass choice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CabotCove]

Quote

 

Alex does come across as pretty manipulative and possessive. He never acknowledges Michael in public, never tells his friends about Michael and then dumps him - twice - for stealing copper wire. But the minute he figures out that Michael and Maria slept together he makes a beeline to Maria's pub and outs Michael letting her know he was museum guy. It's like being the dog in the manger. 

 

I agree about that, Alex comes across as being possessive about Michael. He doesnt out right shouts to Maria to stop seeing Michael but there is an undertone of it that Maria should back off and that Michael is reserved for him. You are not entitled to someone just because you have feelings for them. I like the Alex character but dislike his flaws are never acknowledged in fandom,, he is treated like the golden boy, and everything is Michael or Maria at fault. RNM characters are not perfect, they all have their flaws. 

Anyway, I liked the Alex/Maria's scenes they both acknowledged things they could have done better, and communicated like adults about the Michael situation. 

 

Quote

It's mostly that she seems to take such care in making sure Alex is the wounded one. It's not that she is putting a ton of thought into Alex as his own person, it's more how she writes the pairing.

I think Alex is Carina' favourite, thats why she likes to write him as the perpetual victim. Its to get viewers to be on his side and root for him. People like to root for underdogs. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by CabotCove

[Cristofle]

The Mimi stuff was so badly written in this episode, lol. And Sherri is terrific, so they have a lot to work with re: this plot but it's paced so poorly. 

[Bloga]

37 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

The Mimi stuff was so badly written in this episode, lol. And Sherri is terrific, so they have a lot to work with re: this plot but it's paced so poorly. 

         It made zero sense, they hack into her laptop, then they decide everybody is "entitled to have secrets", even a mentally ill woman who disappeared for a month.

[Cristofle]

6 minutes ago, Bloga said:

         It made zero sense, they hack into her laptop, then they decide everybody is "entitled to have secrets", even a mentally ill woman who disappeared for a month.

It was just such a weird line to draw in the sand? This woman is mentally ill with absolutely no explanation as to the cause, she went missing for weeks, she can't say where she was, they already hacked into her laptop, but her...deleted search history is a step too far? What? Again, I really want to appreciate any indication that any of these people respect boundaries because by and large they cross boundaries with each other left and right, lol, but this just did not make sense. Maria and Alex should have had a much longer talk about whether her mother's issues are connected to the larger alien conspiracy, and now that Maria knows, Liz should mention that her necklace has a pollen in it that renders the aliens powerless. The Mimi plot keeps getting these throwaway scenes that make little to no sense, and the characters aren't talking about issues they should be talking about. Maria and Alex's biggest issue between them should not be Michael, it should be that Alex has had reason to suspect since 1x07 that Mimi's mental issues may be connected to aliens.

[Bloga]

33 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

It was just such a weird line to draw in the sand? This woman is mentally ill with absolutely no explanation as to the cause, she went missing for weeks, she can't say where she was, they already hacked into her laptop, but her...deleted search history is a step too far? What? Again, I really want to appreciate any indication that any of these people respect boundaries because by and large they cross boundaries with each other left and right, lol, but this just did not make sense. Maria and Alex should have had a much longer talk about whether her mother's issues are connected to the larger alien conspiracy, and now that Maria knows, Liz should mention that her necklace has a pollen in it that renders the aliens powerless. The Mimi plot keeps getting these throwaway scenes that make little to no sense, and the characters aren't talking about issues they should be talking about. Maria and Alex's biggest issue between them should not be Michael, it should be that Alex has had reason to suspect since 1x07 that Mimi's mental issues may be connected to aliens.

        Yeah, now that Maria is in the know, why not tell her everything they know, including that necklace she´s been wearing for protection is connected to the aliens...there are way too many inconsistencies...I just now remember Isobel knew a lot about Liz´s life, including the fact she had a fiancé, whereas Maria, Liz´s actual best friend, knew nothing.

[KittenPokerCheater]

7 hours ago, Bloga said:

 Maria has lost out to Alex and Rosa, whatever elements made her a central character in the books and og series, they are now part of those two characters,

I entirely agree. More Maria, less Alex/Rosa (nothing against the actors, just the characters).

When it comes to the showrunner, I think it's Vlamis that is her favorite, even over the Micheal/Alex Ship  To the point that I feel like other characters are being a little marginalized in the writing.

[UNOSEZ]

35 minutes ago, Bloga said:

        Yeah, now that Maria is in the know, why not tell her everything they know, including that necklace she´s been wearing for protection is connected to the aliens...there are way too many inconsistencies...I just now remember Isobel knew a lot about Liz´s life, including the fact she had a fiancé, whereas Maria, Liz´s actual best friend, knew nothing.

I agree with all of this.. I'm giving the show next week.. If by next week it isn't addressed then I'll have a large problem... I'm willing to say because this episode was the bring max back epi.. And she wasn't contracted for the one before.. The upcoming episode really will be her first as someone with knowledge of all the alien stuff... Tho I doubt it'll be Liz filling her in on anything.. She's gotten what she wanted which is her white knight.. So she's gonna be focusing on him and his impending E.T Manpain... So maybe Alex will be the one breaking down all the mysteries.. And it could then circle back to Bronson, Louise and Nora

[Cristofle]

19 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Tho I doubt it'll be Liz filling her in on anything

Unfortunately, agreed. Liz is all about three people: Max, Rosa, and Arturo. And that's not a criticism of her; it makes sense based on who she is and what she's been through. If something major is going on with any one of those three people, Maria is not going to be on her radar. Carina does not place any real significance in the Liz/Maria friendship. It's like their scenes are just used to check off the list of "I guess these people are supposed to be indicated to be close to each other sometimes", and the scenes rarely have real substance, including Maria showing up at the end. It was nice of Maria, but it doesn't reinforce Liz and Maria's bond, especially on Liz's side - if Maria had not been there, I'm not sure Liz would have noticed, because she already had Rosa there. Liz and Maria are doing much worse this season when they already weren't written super well last season, because Rosa is back and fills the space that might otherwise go to Maria. In the OG show, Liz kept one major thing from Maria for a handful of episodes (the whole future Max thing/pretended to sleep with Kyle thing) and it was noted that it was not like her and she and Maria had a fallout and makeup about it. That's it. That's the only time she didn't turn to Maria. On this show, it's a much shorter list to say what Liz HAS genuinely turned to Maria about. Even when she went to her last season, there was always something hidden - Max's identity, the real reason she was so fixated on Rosa's death.

[Chick2Chic]

8 hours ago, Bloga said:

 I take all this talk of the showrunner fighting to cast a black actress as Maria with a huge chunk of salt, because she has the same story about the three aliens and Liz, as in, she said she wrote a letter to TPTB explaining why the aliens needed to be played by white actors, so she makes it sound like she had to justify her casting choices there...also she has mentioned it was really hard to find Latina actresses to audition for Liz, so the casting director told her they might have to cast a white actress, and again, the showrunner had to fight to cast a Latina...something doesn't add up...was every ethnicity a problem? Having time to kill and reading showrunner interviews is not a great idea, it makes it even more evident she is a self-congratulatory faux-woke fanfic writer who loves attention and comes across as a groupie, she has zero objectiveness, and it's easily influenced by personal friendships...being her friend does pay off, let me tell you. I think she lacks the maturity to be an effective showrunner. 

I can't disagree with this. It's just so aggravating to see it happening and the media be silent on the misogynoir. Instead they ignore it or make excuses. If it was homophobia on display by Carina instead of her fetishism, those in the media would be all over this show & deservedly blasting those in charge for being gross, harmful, and out of touch. So the silence over the anti-Blackness by the Carina plus in the writing is very frustrating though not at all surprising. ( I watch The Flash so I've sat through 6 years of a racist fandom openly abusing the show's leading lady on social media while the entertainment news media has been silent) 

On a shallow note, Heather Hemmens looks especially fantastic in this episode.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Chick2Chic
fixed something.

[Bloga]

2 hours ago, Chick2Chic said:

I can't disagree with this. It's just so aggravating to see it happening and the media be silent on the misogynoir. Instead they igore it or make excuses. If it was homophobia on display by Carina instead of her fetishism, those in the media would be all over this show & deservedly blasting those in charge for being gross, harmful, and out of touch so the silence over the anti-Blackness by the showrunner plus in the writing is very frustrating though not at all surprising. ( I watch The Flash so I've sat through 6 years of a racist fandom openly abusing the show's leading lady on social media while the entertainment news media has been silent) 

On a shallow note, Heather Hemmens looks especially fantastic in this episode.

   Heather Hemmens is a delight, she has such a cheeky natural approach to the character, while being able to show vulnerability when necessary, why is she not a leading lady?

     Tokenism is more tolerated than homophobia...I am not an expert on diversity quotas and/or incentives, but ever since I heard Nia Long mention it on a panel, it got me thinking sometimes they'll cast an actor of color to satisfy some sort of quota, only to have that actor completely sidelined...there's also the whole issue of interracial relationships being viewed as easier than gay relationships by people in some fandoms, I just don't know if that's true, tbh. 

      Michael's pretty much the lead at this point...Liz doesn't feel like the lead to me.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Chick2Chic said:

media be silent on the misogynoir

Isn't that the norm... Hell, just explaining misogynoir is a chore.. I brought it up on a greys board ( not this one)  because there was just soooo much vitriol aimed at... You guessed it... Catherine, Maggie and Bailey... And I got every defense mechanism under the sun.. Smh

[Bloga]

6 hours ago, Chick2Chic said:

I can't disagree with this. It's just so aggravating to see it happening and the media be silent on the misogynoir. Instead they ignore it or make excuses. If it was homophobia on display by Carina instead of her fetishism, those in the media would be all over this show & deservedly blasting those in charge for being gross, harmful, and out of touch. So the silence over the anti-Blackness by the Carina plus in the writing is very frustrating though not at all surprising. ( I watch The Flash so I've sat through 6 years of a racist fandom openly abusing the show's leading lady on social media while the entertainment news media has been silent) 

On a shallow note, Heather Hemmens looks especially fantastic in this episode.

            What´s with fandoms and racism? Are they inherently susceptive to supremacy? I must have been living under a rock, because I didn´t know, 

[UNOSEZ]

9 minutes ago, Bloga said:

            What´s with fandoms and racism? Are they inherently susceptive to supremacy? I must have been living under a rock, because I didn´t know, 

Like corporations... Fandoms are ppl too... 

[Cristofle]

I can't believe Carina didn't see she was painting a target on Maria's back. I could've told her that obsessive Michael/Alex fans were going to rip her to shreds no matter what. 

[Bloga]

29 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I can't believe Carina didn't see she was painting a target on Maria's back. I could've told her that obsessive Michael/Alex fans were going to rip her to shreds no matter what. 

           It´s even more unbelievable when you remember that Max and co. making Liz and her father a target was a big part of the plot last season and this season too, it´s sad that she doesn´t see she´s been tipping the scale in favor of a white dude vs a black woman, sexual orientation doesn´t trump mysoginoir.

[ellieart]

And now this season's plot hinges on all the characters bringing back the white savior.  While allowing the girl who was murdered and whose family was destroyed because of them, to conveniently forgive them of everything.  Meanwhile, Maria was lied to by her friends and her body used and people are still finding reason to excuse her of being left in the dark about it all.  Spare me the "it wasn't Liz's/Alex's secret to tell" because Liz straight up told Kyle RIGHT AWAY.  Maria was doomed from the start and now that they did go there with her and Michael, even if briefly, certain parts of the fandom lost their collective shit.  So no matter what they do with Maria's story now, she'll be hated.  But who cares, because at least she's getting a story, right?! 🙄

[Bloga]

11 hours ago, ellieart said:

And now this season's plot hinges on all the characters bringing back the white savior.  While allowing the girl who was murdered and whose family was destroyed because of them, to conveniently forgive them of everything.  Meanwhile, Maria was lied to by her friends and her body used and people are still finding reason to excuse her of being left in the dark about it all.  Spare me the "it wasn't Liz's/Alex's secret to tell" because Liz straight up told Kyle RIGHT AWAY.  Maria was doomed from the start and now that they did go there with her and Michael, even if briefly, certain parts of the fandom lost their collective shit.  So no matter what they do with Maria's story now, she'll be hated.  But who cares, because at least she's getting a story, right?! 🙄

  Rosa was furious, but she loves her sister too much to see her suffer, so she put her justified rage aside...Although I enjoyed her calling Max "vanilla mayonnaise white bread" that was hilarious. He´s a bit bland, I have to say.

             It´s worrisome, seeing Maria appear just to move the plot along, that last scene with Maria,Liz, and Rosa made me realize how superfluous Maria is, if she hadn´t gone to see her friends, nobody would miss her, we have grown accustomed to her absence. Hopefully something changes in future episodes, 

Spoiler

There´s a road trip in next week´s episode, Alex and Maria go looking for answers about Mimi´s disappearance, so that´s cool.

 

3 hours ago, Bloga said:

           

     

  Reveal spoiler

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Bloga

[Bloga]

On 4/14/2020 at 8:11 PM, jewel21 said:

So last night's episode left me a bit confused. 

Max is alive and in a coma but the next scene showed Isobel and Max fighting. Was that Isobel entering Max's head? Was there a time jump and now Max is awake? I'm so confuzzled. 

 

       Maybe Max hasn´t really woken up and the scenes of him and Isobel fighting are a mental fight happening while he´s still in a coma and Isobel has again found a way to connect to him psychically.

  

Spoiler

Although, in the promo for next week´s episode, Liz suddenly appears while Max and Isobel are fighting, and Max doesn´t know who she is...so that could be either the fight is real and semi-feral back-from-the-dead Max doesn´t remember Liz, or ,Max is still in a coma, Isobel manages to connect Liz together with herself and Max, kind or like what she did with Rosa, and comatose Max also doesn´t remember Liz. Or he could be faking it...

         Or maybe he´s so furious at Liz for bringing him back he throws that "Have we met?" at her, and then he goes on a tirade about how he´s dangerous and he´s going to kill them all.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Bloga

[phoenics]

On 4/14/2020 at 7:57 PM, Chick2Chic said:

I get it cause I have been there with fandoms that make me dislike a character or ship more than anything the character / ship has done or said.

Personally my issues with Carina are still about how poorly she treats Maria overall with regard to story + screentime and how much Carina has robbed that character she "fought so hard to be a Black woman" of pretty much everything in order to give it to others, namely Alex.

This.

I can't get past it and it's destroying my enjoyment in the show.  Honestly Maria was the only bright spot for me in the whole episode.  The rest was just a jumbled mess to me.

Heather Hemmons deserves better - every scene she's in, she lights up.  Showrunners typically kill for actresses who can do that.

[phoenics]

16 hours ago, Bloga said:

 

  Reveal spoiler

There´s a road trip in next week´s episode, Alex and Maria go looking for answers about Mimi´s disappearance, so that´s cool.

 

 

Yeah - I still don't care about this, because

Alex is there, which still elevates him as a more important character and Maria as a tag a long in her own damn story.  It's just wrong that Alex has more narrative importance than Maria DeLuca in a story calling itself Roswell.[/quote].

[ellieart]

It's too little too late for Maria.  No matter what story they give her, it's too late.  She's already been marginalized, set up for failure, and hated.

I can only hope that Heather gets out sooner rather than later, she deserves so much more than this show.

Edited April 17, 2020 by ellieart

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, ellieart said:

It's too little too late for Maria.  No matter what story they give her, it's too late.  She's already been marginalized, set up for failure, and hated.

I can only hope that Heather gets out sooner rather than later, she's deserves so much more than this show.

I agree - I hope she gets out soon - she's wasted on this show, which unfortunately will probably get a 3rd season just because no other pilots can be filmed at this point.

[Bloga]

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

I agree - I hope she gets out soon - she's wasted on this show, which unfortunately will probably get a 3rd season just because no other pilots can be filmed at this point.

     There is a live stream with the actors next week, it's for charity...for some reason Carina is included, for reasons. There is a one on one option where you can talk to each one of them, including Carina...I hope someone calls her out on her treatment of Maria, and the fact that Michael's being pushed to take over Liz as the lead, it totally feels like that to me. she' ll flail and get defensive, but she needs a serving of humble pie...Michael Vlamis is a good actor, but dude is thirsty as hell.

[Cristofle]

8 hours ago, phoenics said:

I agree - I hope she gets out soon - she's wasted on this show, which unfortunately will probably get a 3rd season just because no other pilots can be filmed at this point.

The show was renewed for S3 months ago, so we're definitely getting another season. The lack of ability to film pilots and therefore bring on new successful shows has probably heightened the chances of an S4. 

[Bloga]

11 hours ago, ellieart said:

It's too little too late for Maria.  No matter what story they give her, it's too late.  She's already been marginalized, set up for failure, and hated.

I can only hope that Heather gets out sooner rather than later, she deserves so much more than this show.

     They could go as far as writing her off, I guess, or maybe Heather will get tired of having so very little to do...it has to be frustrating for an actor of her experience to be tied to a show and not be used that much, when she could be doing so much more in any other show.

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, Bloga said:

..it has to be frustrating for an actor of her experience to be tied to a show and not be used that much, when she could be doing so much more in any other show.

Well ahead can reach out to fellow CW actors like Mechad Brooks, Ashleigh Murray, Franz Drameh, Kenyian Lonsdale to name a few on what it feels like and what to do when ur put on the back burner on your own damn show... Almost always for somebody a bit brighter or whiter

[Bloga]

19 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Well ahead can reach out to fellow CW actors like Mechad Brooks, Ashleigh Murray, Franz Drameh, Kenyian Lonsdale to name a few on what it feels like and what to do when ur put on the back burner on your own damn show... Almost always for somebody a bit brighter or whiter

    The thing is I have seen the showrunner use the whole Alex is played by an Indigenous actor (huh?) argument to sort of defend the problematic choices in season 1...there´s also the gay amputee vet defense, almost like Alex checks so many boxes sidelining the black character is...ok?

[KittenPokerCheater]

8 hours ago, Bloga said:

   There is a live stream with the actors next week, it's for charity...for some reason Carina is included, for reasons.

I wonder why the actor who plays Max isn't part of this.  I mean, he is the lead (or he is supposed to be).

[Cristofle]

I know Tyler has mentioned being of Cherokee descent (he may have mentioned Comanche as well?) but that's always a topic to be really careful about - I am unclear on if he is enrolled/participates in tribal culture, and from what I understand, Native Americans don't usually appreciate when something like a 23andme test is used to show Native descent. That's not what they base tribal membership on.

Regardless, no, it's not an acceptable reason to backburner Maria, or to take her significance from the franchise with no immediate plan in place to give her a different significance.

[Bloga]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I know Tyler has mentioned being of Cherokee descent (he may have mentioned Comanche as well?) but that's always a topic to be really careful about - I am unclear on if he is enrolled/participates in tribal culture, and from what I understand, Native Americans don't usually appreciate when something like a 23andme test is used to show Native descent. That's not what they base tribal membership on.

Regardless, no, it's not an acceptable reason to backburner Maria, or to take her significance from the franchise with no immediate plan in place to give her a different significance.

  I absolutely agree it's a delicate subject, but when you have someone like Amber Midthunder on the show, an actual Indigenous woman who is enrolled in a New Mexico tribal band, it's questionable to have someone with no apparent ties to Indigenous culture play someone whose mom lives on a reservation and who talks about her grandma's stories about Indian boarding schools. Blood quantum isn't what determines who someone is in terms of their culture, but their ties to said culture. From what I understand, Indigenous actors find it hard to make it in this industry, so I went back and found some page that listed Tyler B. as being of a bunch of different ethnicities, but no apparent ties to Indigenous culture, I want to be very respectful about this because I know it's not something to take lightly.

[Cristofle]

Yeah, I really like Tyler, don't get me wrong, he was a rare bright spot on PLL as it got increasingly insane, lol. But I'm not sure I'm comfortable calling him a POC and a Native actor, which I have seen him referred to on other platforms when his fans argue it's okay he toppled Maria's importance as a character. And more to the point, Alex appears to be depicted as partially of Native descent on his mother's side on the show. Only Native actors, who actually have membership in a tribe, should be playing Native characters.

[Bloga]

2 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I wonder why the actor who plays Max isn't part of this.  I mean, he is the lead (or he is supposed to be).

   Someone mentioned on twitter all the actors were invited, maybe he was not available whenever this is scheduled, Jeanine isn't doing it either, who knows...Jeanine has been doing a lot of instagram lives and video interviews, and she is always participating in charity events, so she might have something else lined up, I think Nathan isn't very interested in social media in general, he's no Michael Vlamis, although this event is for charity, so I don't know.

[Bloga]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Yeah, I really like Tyler, don't get me wrong, he was a rare bright spot on PLL as it got increasingly insane, lol. But I'm not sure I'm comfortable calling him a POC and a Native actor, which I have seen him referred to on other platforms when his fans argue it's okay he toppled Maria's importance as a character. And more to the point, Alex appears to be depicted as partially of Native descent on his mother's side on the show. Only Native actors, who actually have membership in a tribe, should be playing Native characters.

      I am curious to see who' ll play his mom...she's been mentioned as living on a reservation near Roswell and will make an appearance on season 3 for sure, they had plans to have her on this seasons, but didn't have enough time to bring in a new character.

[Heartsparkgirl]

Hi everyone! I've been lurking for a little while now and apologies for awkwardly jumping in!

The first half of the first season was solid for me: loved Liz, loved her chemistry with Max, thought Alex and Michael were adorable, digged Maria and her style and flair and lowkey abilities...was intrigued by her budding relationship with Michael...

While I watched I made the mistake of checking out the hashtags on twitter. Surprise! A lot of hatred (like, super intense) for the black female character and a lot of fetishizing and infantilizing of the (white) gay male characters. I mostly blame the writers for writing Maria as the 3rd wheel because C'MON.

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Yeah, I really like Tyler, don't get me wrong, he was a rare bright spot on PLL as it got increasingly insane, lol. But I'm not sure I'm comfortable calling him a POC and a Native actor, which I have seen him referred to on other platforms when his fans argue it's okay he toppled Maria's importance as a character. And more to the point, Alex appears to be depicted as partially of Native descent on his mother's side on the show. Only Native actors, who actually have membership in a tribe, should be playing Native characters.

Completely agree with this. For the most part when a white passing actor says that they're Cherokee I usually take it with a grain of salt, it's just a very *very* common family folklore. And even if it were true, that does not make a person "of color" IMO. Tyler lives his life ostensibly as a white man. Fans weaponize "MOC" to excuse their racism.

The conversation between Alex and Maria was clearly written to encourage rabid fans to *chill*, but no matter what came out of St. Alex's mouth Maria is forever a villian.

I liked the Crashdown dream scenes for the aesthetics. Everything else...meh.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Heartsparkgirl

[Bloga]

22 minutes ago, Heartsparkgirl said:

Hi everyone! I've been lurking for a little while now and apologies for awkwardly jumping in!

The first half of the first season was solid for me: loved Liz, loved her chemistry with Max, thought Alex and Michael were adorable, digged Maria and her style and flair and lowkey abilities...was intrigued by her budding relationship with Michael...

While I watched I made the mistake of checking out the hashtags on twitter. Surprise! A lot of hatred (like, super intense) for the black female character and a lot of fetishizing and infantilizing of the LGBTQIA (white) characters. I mostly blame the writers for writing Maria as the 3rd wheel because C'MON.

Completely agree with this. For the most part when a white passing actor says that they're Cherokee I usually take it with a grain of salt, it's just a very *very* common family folklore. And even if it were true, that does not make a person "of color" IMO. Tyler lives his life ostensibly as a white man. Fans weaponize "MOC" to excuse their racism.

The conversation between Alex and Maria was clearly written to encourage rabid fans to *chill*, but no matter what came out of St. Alex's mouth Maria is forever a villian.

I liked the Crashdown dream scenes for the aesthetics. Everything else...meh.

       Hi! Welcome! Yes to everything you said. I think most of us are frustrated because we see so much potential and at time really brilliant ideas in the show, but poor execution, at least that´s how I feel. For a show run by self-proclaimed woke peeps, they really wrote themselves into a corner with respect to Maria, it was so easy to avoid, yet, here we are...even I know in a love triangle (hate the expression) both suitors need to on equal footing in all aspects, otherwise it becomes a story of the star-crossed lovers and the one who´s trying to break them up...just like it´s happening with Michael, Alex, and Maria

[Chick2Chic]

12 hours ago, Bloga said:

 There is a live stream with the actors next week, it's for charity...for some reason Carina is included, for reasons. There is a one on one option where you can talk to each one of them, including Carina...I hope someone calls her out on her treatment of Maria, and the fact that Michael's being pushed to take over Liz as the lead, it totally feels like that to me. she' ll flail and get defensive, but she needs a serving of humble pie...Michael Vlamis is a good actor, but dude is thirsty as hell.

I would love to join the live stream for this very reason but I already know I wouldn't be diplomatic about it. Like not even a little bit. IA that Carina definitely needs to be called out on her Michael thirst (both actor & character), her pushing out WOC Liz as the lead of the show to endlessly gush from various orifices over Michael, her inability to be objective about stories, and her continuing misogynoir marginalization of Maria.

[Chick2Chic]

4 hours ago, Cristofle said:

But I'm not sure I'm comfortable calling him a POC and a Native actor, which I have seen him referred to on other platforms when his fans argue it's okay he toppled Maria's importance as a character.

Which is so frustrating cause it's a bias that is basically saying that Black women are and deserve less, especially if there's a POC man around. (Even a POC man who is more European mixed and doesn't seem truly connected to those indigenous roots like Amber) It's such an ugly mindset that those fans plus Carina consistently contribute to and don't get called out about in the mainstream press.

[Bloga]

5 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

Which is so frustrating cause it's a bias that is basically saying that Black women are and deserve less, especially if there's a POC man around. (Even a POC man who is more European mixed and doesn't seem truly connected to those indigenous roots like Amber) It's such an ugly mindset that those fans plus Carina consistently contribute to and don't get called out about in the mainstream press.

         They have tried to push this Alex is Indigenous hard this season, going so far as to have a character say he and the actor playing his brother ( who is an Indigenous actor) looked so similar he thought they were the same person...that was some shameless s&%t. Native American actors have it rough in the film industry, so like you said, it´s not so much about percentage as it is about connection to a culture. I guess deep down they just don´t care, the one Indigenous actress is also playing a different ethnicity, so they care about accuracy and true representation only when it comes to gay and bisexual men, which is necessary, don´t get me wrong, but when it comes to race and ethnicity, there is a lot of back-patting, not much else.

[Heartsparkgirl]

25 minutes ago, Bloga said:

         They have tried to push this Alex is Indigenous hard this season, going so far as to have a character say he and the actor playing his brother ( who is an Indigenous actor) looked so similar he thought they were the same person...that was some shameless s&%t. Native American actors have it rough in the film industry, so like you said, it´s not so much about percentage as it is about connection to a culture. I guess deep down they just don´t care, the one Indigenous actress is also playing a different ethnicity, so they care about accuracy and true representation only when it comes to gay and bisexual men, which is necessary, don´t get me wrong, but when it comes to race and ethnicity, there is a lot of back-patting, not much else.

When the character said that...nice try.

I actually found an interview with Tyler where he's describing all of his heritage and he says that he's part Welsh and Yugoslavian which is the reason why he has a lot of "darker features". I think there's a very specific Indigenous look that these casting directors go for and unfortunately it's white folks who can tan (and these actors never give the specific nation that they're from just a general Cherokee or something else).

I am happy see Amber and Kiowa getting work though.

[Bloga]

19 minutes ago, Heartsparkgirl said:

When the character said that...nice try.

I actually found an interview with Tyler where he's describing all of his heritage and he says that he's part Welsh and Yugoslavian which is the reason why he has a lot of "darker features". I think there's a very specific Indigenous look that these casting directors go for and unfortunately it's white folks who can tan (and these actors never give the specific nation that they're from just a general Cherokee or something else).

I am happy see Amber and Kiowa getting work though.

           I know some Croatians, and they have that kind of look, dark hair, dark eyes, olive skin...those features are quite prevalent in that part of Eastern Europe (see Goran Visnjic, or Nina Dobrev, who´s Bulgarian, but that country is right next to Serbia, also Romanians have that look) so he´s not far off attributing his features to his Yugoslavian heritage. 

     Isn´t it funny it´s always Cherokee? The Cherokee princess everybody seems to be related to, I mean.

       I think it´s great Kiowa and Amber are getting work, but I imagine for Kiowa it has to be weird, the show pushing for the white "ambiguous looking" actor to be perceived as looking just like him...seriously. Amber is awesome, I wish she didn´t mumble, though...but that seems to be the problem of most actors nowadays, they can´t enunciate for s&%t.