S01.E13: Betrayal

[formerlyfreedom]

Cyrus Vanch, a nefarious criminal, is recently released from prison and intends to re-secure his position as leader of the underworld. His first step is to take down his biggest opponent in the city – Arrow. Meanwhile, Oliver shows Moira his father’s notebook and questions her about the names on the list. Thea is miserable as she starts her internship with Laurel at the legal aid office and Detective Lance makes a deadly mistake that puts Laurel in the crosshairs of Vanch.

 

[quarks]

Well, since no one else has commented yet, my lengthy comments:

 

Ah, the episode about lies, lies, and more lies.  Possibly why Felicity isn't in it –

the last episode where she doesn't make an appearance.

 

1. This is a very small thing, but characters, the rules for Iron Heights are very clearly stated in the first few seconds of this episode. It says, "No physical contact with prisoners."  We're barely thirteen episodes in and you keep breaking this one.

 

2. Bad guys, if you don't clean up the body and the blood immediately you'll never get the stain out.  And do you really want someone around repairing/replacing the floor while you are doing evil plotting? I didn't think so.

 

3. Though, great entrance for this week's Bad Guy: straight out of prison and the first thing he does is quietly stab someone and then chatter about food. Awesome.

 

4. Hi, crunched plane.

Sidenote: the show keeps reusing the same clip of Oliver's first sight of the plane whenever people approach the plane: that must have been an expensive shot. 

 

5. And, talking about dramatic entrances, hi Slade!  I think you may have the edge in dramatic entrances here, Slade, partly because you've jumped down from the roof, partly because you are threatening Island Oliver, and mostly because the accent. Yes. The accent.

 

6. "Have you considered the possibility that no one wants you to?"  

For a show that so often seems unplanned, some of its storylines have deep roots – starting here with the cops no longer wanting to catch the Hood, leading up to the tolerance/cooperation of the second season finale.

 

7. "The only way to keep this family safe is for everyone in it to stop asking questions."

 

I love this bit, not just because Moira's really delightfully manipulative here – "No, no, this has nothing to do with me at all! Just your conveniently dead father!" but because that sentence applies to Oliver's thinking as well – he feels he's safer when Thea and Moira don't ask questions.  They're a lot more alike than they think they are.  

And man am I going to miss that dynamic. 

 

Also, people say "Promise me," and "I promise" a lot in this show, don't they?

 

8. Wait a minute. Didn't Thea start this community service thing last week?  Why is she doing another orientation now?  (Takes more notes for the Why Laurel Sucks section. Yes, I know the show has to repeat some things in case viewers missed an episode, but still.)

 

9.  "He's been lying to me for weeks!"  "Yeah, feels like crap, doesn't it?" Tommy, having his illusions stripped away.

 

10.  You have got to love Slade's casual way of just tossing big knives at people.  Also, the way he hits Island Oliver.  Yay Slade!

 

11.  Amell is really good here during the whole "I kinda bugged your mother – but that's not important right now" scene.

 

12. Yay, Quentin and the Hood team up!

 

13.  I love this bad guy. First to bother actually counting how many Arrows and flechettes Oliver is carrying around. And his speech explaining this, also awesome.

 

14. Wow, a lot of women have to tell Oliver not to make decisions for them, don't they?

 

15. I don't want to be rude, but really I think Queen Consolidated needs to reconsider the thickness of its window panes. 

Also, I can just see it: Well, Mr. Queen, we would give you your company back, but an audit revealed that since your return, corporate insurance costs on the QC building went up 2000%. Apparently something to do with ongoing window repairs and the company refusal to invest in better windows? Anyway, this spooks investors. As you can understand.

 

And now Laurel, this episode.

 

WHERE TO BEGIN.

 

Seriously, WHERE TO BEGIN?

 

I guess with the usual counting:

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a lawyer, this episode alone: IT'S THE ENTIRE MAIN PLOT OF THE EPISODE! In other words, eight.  1, failing to explain to Thea just how many hours her community service will consist of, 2, failing to collect or provide enough evidence to keep Cyrus Vanch in jail, 3, having to be informed of this little lapse by another lawyer, Anastasia, 3, not being around for whatever reason, which forced Anastasia to be the person who needed to call Kate Spencer, 4, not even being aware that Vance getting released was even a possibility, 5, having no leverage whatsoever in the legal system for what is now two episodes in a row, 6, needing to have a fellow lawyer lecture her on her options and suggest calling in a vigilante, 7, in the middle of what Laurel is trying to convince us is an actual crisis, saying "I have to get this," which turns out to be a call from her boyfriend setting up a gourmet food tasting experience. Laurel. One second you are assuring us that yes, yes, this guy must absolutely be put away like RIGHT NOW and the next minute you're making jokes about the Bachelor. Under the circumstances that call could have gone to voicemail.  8, Calling a vigilante from inside your legal office and assuming that talking in a low voice while acting suspicious is enough to make sure that no one will notice this. Show, I am aware that you are on a budget but this sort of thing does your lead actress no favors whatsoever.  9. Laurel, do you remember when they covered this little thing called the Fourth Amendment back in law school? Yeah, that thing? The one that fairly specifically states that evidence has to be collected legally, and not – just to toss something out there – from vigilante arrows if you want to put the dude back into jail?

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being, this episode, nine:  1. Responding to Anastasia's comment about losing her six figure salary for a year working completely pro bono, with "The experience of helping others is its own reward."  It's not just condescending, but in context, Anastasia's "apparently" makes it sound as if she did not know she was going to be losing a year's salary until she started there – in the six figures, so yes, we are talking a lot of money here, Laurel, and given that you are currently the ONLY PERSON in this conversation who is drawing a salary, SHUT UP LAUREL. 2. Also, I think Laurel mispronounces "Anastasia" the first time although she's correct the second time. I probably shouldn't count that but THIS EPISODE. 3, Completely failing to inform her boyfriend that she's ditching the tasting session at the club to go meet a serial killer on top of a building so that she can get info on another serial killer. 4, Also her cop father all of which 5, leads to her father getting slammed in the head. 6, her total hypocrisy: getting furious that her father's been lying to her for weeks while talking to the man that she's been lying to for weeks. 7, fighting loudly with her father at the police station, guaranteeing that the dirty cop will find out about this, thus endangering everyonem 8, choosing to go after bad guys with AN UMBRELLA. AN UMBRELLA.  (I mean, yes, it worked, and she finally had a kickass moment when she pushed someone into glass, so yay, but, still.) which leads to 8, her kidnapping distracting Oliver exactly when he kinda needs to think about other stuff, like again, THANKS LAUREL.

 

Number of times Laurel gets kidnapped/gets her apartment mostly broken into, this episode: 1, making it three times so far for the entire season. Everyone, we are on episode 13. At least she fights back here and even takes down a couple of guys.

 

Number of people commenting negatively on the Laurel/Oliver or Laurel/Hood relationship this episode, six:  1. Diggle, noting that Oliver is using Laurel to avoid the real issue of his mother, and later noting that Oliver doesn't think clearly when it comes to Laurel, 2, Oliver, using Laurel as a human shield, like, SERIOUSLY OLIVER, and later admitting to Tommy that he's lied and kept secrets in every relationship that he's been with, which includes Laurel 3, I'm throwing Quentin in here since he's enough against the relationship to have cops aim weapons at his daughter to stop it, which I feel makes its own point, 4, Tommy, correctly pointing out that Laurel working with the Hood could endanger her and is also causing problems with her other relationships, 5, Technically Vanch's girlfriend, noting that Laurel's relationship with the Hood makes her a target/puts her in danger, 6, Vanch, "I might have overestimated his fondness for you." 

Granted this is before we've seen Oliver's response to Felicity being in danger, but even forgetting that,

Oliver's response to Laurel's kidnapping is go to a roof and hang out for a bit, not rush to save her, and although Diggle's available there doesn't seem to be any thought of asking for his assistance.

Only one person does speak positively of the Laurel/Hood relationship, the tech guy, by calling her Maid Marian, and this is a bit of a stretch. 

Also he's dead now like THANKS LAUREL. Yes, I know, technically that one wasn't her fault but quiet please I am griping.

 

Number of really horrible scenes with negative chemistry between Oliver and Laurel: one, the final scene between the Hood and Laurel. Yes, I know that the voice modulator and the need to keep his face hidden aren't helping, but even beyond that, everything in this scene is just off.  What's funny is that I actually prefer the Laurel/Hood relationship to the Laurel/Oliver relationship, but the Laurel/Oliver scenes are often better acted/written.

 

All this said, I was totally on Laurel's side during her confrontation with Quentin, though.

Also, and I forgot this, an interesting parallel with the way Oliver will later use Felicity as bait, especially since no one except the tech guy is seen to agonize about this - and of course, Felicity knows she's being used; Laurel doesn't.

  And also, this particular kidnapping is the first time we've seen any fighting/self defense skills from her since her attack on the club guys, so, plus.

 

On a meta level:

 

Having introduced another potential love interest and placed the foundations for the alternative love interest last episode, this episode backs away from both: neither McKenna nor Felicity is in this episode, although Felicity is frequently mentioned. Instead, the focus swings back to Laurel, the original love interest, although, interestingly enough, even with the renewed focus on her, she gets less screen time than Moira does this episode.

 

But for a Laurel focused episode, it really does her no favors.

A pattern that will be repeated.

 The entire episode basically emphasizes two things: one, Laurel is unable to do much by herself – her sole accomplishment this episode is to knock down two of the goons (granted, with an umbrella, which I guess is saying something) before getting knocked out and kidnapped, and two, the Laurel/Hood relationship mostly focuses to put various people in danger. By the end of this episode twenty four people are dead, several cops have been endangered, and Laurel has almost gotten killed twice. The relationship also damaged her relationship with her boyfriend (although he forgives her) and her father.  In other words, this isn't just a relationship that's toxic for the two of them, but it's a relationship that actively harms others.

Vanch's girlfriend doesn't get a name here and doesn't really get to do much, but she's actually shown to be a more useful, helpful partner for Vanch than Laurel is for Oliver: the girlfriend gives Vanch necessary info (and unlike Laurel comes straight to the point) and uses her contacts to help Vanch, and I like that she also refuses to clean up the blood – she's the partner/girlfriend, not the help. Since she's also just a plot device I don't think it means much, but it's saying something when the plot device has a healthier, more functional and more useful relationship.

 

But that leads to another observation about Laurel's role in this episode overall. The episode has five women characters (Thea, Anastasia, Laurel, Moira and the girlfriend.) Of these, the only two that have agency are Moira and the girlfriend.  Thea is here to remind us that she's in the show; Anastasia to give an info dump. Both of them comment in the script that they are not really at CRNI by choice. In contrast, the one who is there by choice also has the least agency of everyone in the episode: essentially, she exists to be used: to pass on information so that Oliver has a Villain of the Week to target; by Vanch to target the Hood; by her father to target the Hood.  These are all, not incidentally, men. She's rightfully indignant about all of these things, but the episode doesn't end with any hope that this will end, and in the meantime, the episode has the three women on the side of good getting used, and only the two women on the side of evil/quasi-evil having control of their lives.

 

This is a fairly troubling situation, especially aggravating here since it follows an episode where two women on the side of good did take control of their lives/agency. But I think that the (unintended) underlying message here is part of why I sometimes find Laurel so enraging: this is a professional, educated woman who finds herself used by men and as a plot device, which yes, happens all over television and in real life, but still irks me.

 

Speaking of the killing: 

Laurel fans apparently point to this episode as proof that Oliver is as willing if not more willing to kill for Laurel as he is for Felicity; thing is, this happens before Oliver's no kill vow, so although yes he certainly does kill a LOT of people on Laurel's behalf here, I don't think it's quite the same.

 

Also, hello plot theme of Oliver realizing/deciding that being the Hood puts any woman he might care about at risk.

That said, he hasn't hesitated to go out with two women he does care about, after they've demonstrated that they can take care of themselves, and I can't exactly blame Oliver for concluding here that Laurel can't. And interestingly, he's not just declining a relationship with Laurel here: he's also telling her that he won't work with her on a vigilante level, either - which given what's about to happen in the very next episode is really saying something.

Also, the comparison between this scene and the later "I can't be with someone I really care about" with Felicity is pretty profound.  Granted, some of this is that voice modulator/lack of mask but a) here, neither one of them look at each other, b) this happens right after Laurel actually was in danger, with a knife at her throat – the Felicity scene happens after Felicity's main danger is falling for a guy who won't jump into bed with her because she doesn't speak Russian which is kinda sad,  c) this scene is shot in the dark, the other one in the light, d) the scene is all about how Laurel feels about getting told not to call the Hood again, and ends with Laurel in Tommy's arms; Felicity's scene is about Oliver deserving better, and she doesn't end up in anyone's arms.  The contrast between Laurel and Felicity as bait is also pretty strong: Laurel does make the same "I know the risks" argument, but  Felicity goes in openly as bait, not just in Unthinkable but in general as part of the mission in other episodes. Laurel is outright kidnapped.

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Also, people say "Promise me," and "I promise" a lot in this show, don't they?

 

Everyone says it a lot and yet for the most part no one ever keeps them.

 

I loved Moira in this episode.

Moira/Diggle: "Can I help you Mr. Diggle?"  "Just looking for the bathroom, ma'am"

Moira/Oliver: "Stop asking questions, Oliver"  throws book in fire "Besides, it's your father that bad not me"  Muuuhahaha!

Moira/Malcolm:  "I didn't need to use the usual threats this time"

Moira/Frank:  "I want out of the Undertaking and if you help me we can get out of it together"

 Hey, Frank just a tip…don't trust this woman.  It will be the death of you someday.

 

Poor Oliver when he realized the Gambit was sabotaged.  I liked that Oliver and Diggle could have differing opinions and neither was afraid to get in the other's face about it.

 

"OMG, Tommy my father has been lying to me for weeks, can you even believe that?"  "Yeah, Laurel imagine that.  Sucks, doesn't it."   Tommy may have been good for Laurel, but she was not good for him.  NOPE! Run Tommy, run like the wind in the opposite direction of wherever Laurel is going.  

 

Slade!!!

Edited July 13, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[icandigit]

 

Bad guys, if you don't clean up the body and the blood immediately you'll never get the stain out.  And do you really want someone around repairing/replacing the floor while you are doing evil plotting? I didn't think so.

IKR

 

The villian in this  is so slimy. I love it.

 

The whole line about 'he saved the Christmas hostages' makes me laugh, guess i'm evil

 

Susanna Thompson gives this whole operation legitimacy.

 

As much as I love Felicity I hope they keep in the Oliver/Diggle moments next season.

 

Obtaining evidence is not what the Arrow does Laurel, cause he thinks its lame.

 

I  remember not hating Lance for what he did. It just made him seem really sad.

 

Diggle is a saint, I can't with Oliver.

 

Thank You Manu, I can finally enjoy the flashbacks.

 

I wonder if Diggle being a private eye hired to investigate Moira. Using black driver as a cover would make a good fic.Hmm.

 

"I made it clear to him persuasively"Gosh I love Moira.

 

"Have you considered a sword. I like swords!"Slade Wilson ladies and gentleman.

 

I still dance to the closing credits.That's my joint.

Edited July 13, 2014 by icandigit

[VCRTracking]

David Anders is always a great villain. He was so fantastic as Sark on Alias. 

 

I like the part where John, not trusting Moira and spying on her follows her into a restaurant and bursts in to find that it's just her friend's 50th birthday party and embarrassed says "Pardon me ladies, I need to use the bathroom!"

[Wayward Son]

• Do I blame Laurel for lying to Tommy about meeting up with Green Arrow? No! Do I blame Laurel for ditching plans with Tommy to go to this meeting? No! Do I blame Laurel for not considering Tommy’s feelings? Yes. I get why she did what she did, but Laurel definitely should have had more awareness of how much hurt her lie was going to cause. 

• Interesting contrast between last episode where it was Diggle’s personal connections that clouded his judgement and this week’s episode where Oliver’s connection to Laurel and his mother is clouding his judgement. 

• Ugh, can someone kill Quentin already? 

• Oliver confronting his mother was a great cliffhanger for the episode! 

 

On 13/07/2014 at 4:26 PM, quarks said:

1. Responding to Anastasia's comment about losing her six figure salary for a year working completely pro bono, with "The experience of helping others is its own reward."  It's not just condescending, but in context, Anastasia's "apparently" makes it sound as if she did not know she was going to be losing a year's salary until she started there – in the six figures, so yes, we are talking a lot of money here, Laurel, and given that you are currently the ONLY PERSON in this conversation who is drawing a salary, SHUT UP LAUREL. 

 

3, Completely failing to inform her boyfriend that she's ditching the tasting session at the club to go meet a serial killer on top of a building so that she can get info on another serial killer.

 

4, Also her cop father all of which 5, leads to her father getting slammed in the head.

 

6, her total hypocrisy: getting furious that her father's been lying to her for weeks while talking to the man that she's been lying to for weeks.

 

8, choosing to go after bad guys with AN UMBRELLA. AN UMBRELLA.  (I mean, yes, it worked, and she finally had a kickass moment when she pushed someone into glass, so yay, but, still.) which leads to 8, her kidnapping distracting Oliver exactly when he kinda needs to think about other stuff, like again, THANKS LAUREL.

I’m a first time viewer so perhaps stuff happens to contradict my following replies in later episodes, but based on what I’ve seen so far. 

 

1) Personally, I think you’re reading too much into the exchange between Laurel and Anastasia. IMO it was intended as good hearted banter between two friends/work colleagues and not as genuine griping. Personally, I think if Anastasia had legitimate complaints voicing them during her introduction to Thea was a bad time to do it. Plus there’s such a thing as employment contracts. I’m sure she knew exactly what she’d be earning prior to starting work there.

 

3. Does Oliver fail as a human being every time he ditches plans with Moira, Thea, Tommy and others he cares for to do his vigilantes work? Does he fail as a human being every time he lies to them? Does he fail as a human being every time he puts him into harms way without informing everyone? Laurel was trying to do her best to find a way to stop someone who had already killed someone since his release from prison and would continue to do so unhindered. It’s a pretty unfair standard to count this a failure as a human being IMO considering the context of this show. 

4 & 5: Quentin was there because he chose to use his own daughter as bait. The fact he was hit on the head is his own fault and not Laurel’s. The man gets no sympathy from me. 

6. I actually agree with this to an extent. It was wrong of Laurel to not consider Tommy’s feelings re her lies. That was pretty self absorbed of her. On the other hand, there is also a difference between lying to someone as she and Oliver do all the time and lying to someone AND using them as bait like Quentin did here. So overall she should have been more empathetic to Tommy, but their situations weren’t identical. 

 

8. She was attacked in her own home and grabbed the nearest object. It’s not as though she went to a planned fight with an umbrella as her weapon of choice. 

 

9. wow, yes let’s just blame the victim for having the audicity to be kidnapped at an inconvenient time. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Wayward Son

[lemotomato]

14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

3. Does Oliver fail as a human being every time he ditches plans with Moira, Thea, Tommy and others he cares for to do his vigilantes work? Does he fail as a human being every time he lies to them? Does he fail as a human being every time he puts him into harms way without informing everyone?

Yeah, he kind of was a failure of a human being doing these things. The difference is that at this point, we thought Oliver had spent 5 years on a hellish island and there was an explanation for why he behaved like that. What are Laurel's reasons, especially since she expects/demands honesty from everyone else?

[bijoux]

This is the one in which Laurel gripes to Tommy about Quentin having lied to her and Tommy just goes, Sucks, doesn't it?, before he exits stage left? I loved that. I think I laughed out loud. It's also likely that's when I really started liking Tommy. 

Who's Anastasia? I don't remember her.

[statsgirl]

56 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

3. Does Oliver fail as a human being every time he ditches plans with Moira, Thea, Tommy and others he cares for to do his vigilantes work? Does he fail as a human being every time he lies to them? Does he fail as a human being every time he puts him into harms way without informing everyone? Laurel was trying to do her best to find a way to stop someone who had already killed someone since his release from prison and would continue to do so unhindered. It’s a pretty unfair standard to count this a failure as a human being IMO considering the context of this show. 

I think that in terms of the show, especially in season 1, there were two different standards of behaviour:  Oliver and Everyone Else.  As @lemotomato said, Oliver had gone through five years of hell, starting with watching Sara get sucked out and drown, then his father shooting himself in the head in front of Oliver and after putting on him the burden of righting his wrongs, and it went downhill from there.  There was whole lot of PTSD going on.

Oliver had no choice but to lie to everyone except Diggle because there was no one else he could trust including Laurel who blew hot and cold about supporting The Hood.  At this point he had given up on having any kind of normal life and had basically become a killing machine to save his city.  He'd even given up on having a normal relationship with a woman, thinking he was toxic, and wanted Tommy and Laurel to be happy together.

I think Everyone Else, however, is fair game for comparison.  Quentin crossed a whole roadway of lines here.

Edited March 18, 2018 by statsgirl

[lemotomato]

30 minutes ago, bijoux said:

This is the one in which Laurel gripes to Tommy about Quentin having lied to her and Tommy just goes, Sucks, doesn't it?, before he exits stage left? I loved that. I think I laughed out loud. It's also likely that's when I really started liking Tommy. 

At this point, Tommy deserved better than Laurel as his girlfriend and Oliver as his best friend.

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Yeah, he kind of was a failure of a human being doing these things. The difference is that at this point, we thought Oliver had spent 5 years on a hellish island and there was an explanation for why he behaved like that. What are Laurel's reasons, especially since she expects/demands honesty from everyone else?

 

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I think that in terms of the show, especially in season 1, there were two different standards of behaviour:  Oliver and Everyone Else.  As @lemotomato said, Oliver had gone through five years of hell, starting with watching Sara get sucked out and drown, then his father shooting himself in the head in front of Oliver and after putting on him the burden of righting his wrongs, and it went downhill from there.  There was whole lot of PTSD going on.

Oliver had no choice but to lie to everyone except Diggle because there was no one else he could trust including Laurel who blew hot and cold about supporting The Hood.  At this point he had given up on having any kind of normal life and had basically become a killing machine to save his city.  He'd even given up on having a normal relationship with a woman, thinking he was toxic, and wanted Tommy and Laurel to be happy together.

I think Everyone Else, however, is fair game for comparison.  Quentin crossed a whole roadway of lines here.

 

You guys raise valid points re PTSD having an influence on Oliver's behaviour so I'll remove him from the equation and make what I consider to be a more apt comparision. 

Laurel's 'crime' was meeting up with 'the hood' and not informing her loved ones of her alliance with him. If that is the case is Diggle a failure of a human being every time he meets up with Oliver? We know he hasn't told his sister in law (who he is clearly still extremely close to) the truth about his activities? Does Diggle fail as a human being every time he ditches plans with her do his vigilantes work? Does he fail as a human being every time he lies to her? Does he fail as a human being every time he puts himself into harms way without informing her or others he cares for? 

Likewise episode 14 spoiler

Spoiler

Would Felicity be a failure of a human being if she were to lie to loved ones? Assuming she has loved ones that is. I don't mean that nastily.... I just mean as far as I can recall there has been no mention of her friends and family? And I know GENERAL SERIES SPOILER

Spoiler

That she and Oliver eventually get together so I'm assuming Felicity is single at this point. 

So I'm just not sure if Felicity has any current loved ones for the lying question to apply to. 

 

Personally, I think Laurel had very valid reasons for lying to Quentin. As he demonstrated had she went to him there was a high chance he would try and ruin the meeting. Of course Laurel isn't a psychic, but his overt hatred for the hood means she doesn't have to be to guess how he'd react. Tommy is a bit more dubious, but considering his own clear wariness of the hood her decision to not inform him is likewise understandable. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Mary0360]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

 

You guys raise valid points re PTSD having an influence on Oliver's behaviour so I'll remove him from the equation and make what I consider to be a more apt comparision. 

Laurel's 'crime' was meeting up with 'the hood' and not informing her loved ones of her alliance with him. If that is the case is Diggle a failure of a human being every time he meets up with Oliver? We know he hasn't told his sister in law (who he is clearly still extremely close to) the truth about his activities? Does Diggle fail as a human being every time he ditches plans with her do his vigilantes work? Does he fail as a human being every time he lies to her? Does he fail as a human being every time he puts himself into harms way without informing her or others he cares for? 

Likewise episode 14 spoiler

  Hide contents

Would Felicity be a failure of a human being if she were to lie to loved ones? Assuming she has loved ones that is. I don't mean that nastily.... I just mean as far as I can recall there has been no mention of her friends and family? And I know GENERAL SERIES SPOILER

  Hide contents

That she and Oliver eventually get together so I'm assuming Felicity is single at this point. 

So I'm just not sure if Felicity has any current loved ones for the lying question to apply to. 

 

Personally, I think Laurel had very valid reasons for lying to Quentin. As he demonstrated had she went to him there was a high chance he would try and ruin the meeting. Of course Laurel isn't a psychic, but his overt hatred for the hood means she doesn't have to be to guess how he'd react. Tommy is a bit more dubious, but considering his own clear wariness of the hood her decision to not inform him is likewise understandable. 

Diggle wasn't actively and intentionally lying to anyone. Felicity wasn't actively and intentionally  lying to anyone. Laurel and Quentin were. That's the difference. 

 

Also Diggles job was a body guard after formerly being a soldier. His current client was someone who had been kidnapped months earlier. His sister in law was well aware that his job was dangerous. So I'm really not getting the Diggle comparison. 

[Wayward Son]

Just now, Mary0360 said:

Diggle wasn't actively and intentionally lying to anyone. Felicity wasn't actively and intentionally  lying to anyone. Laurel and Quentin were. That's the difference. 

 

Also Diggles job was a body guard after formerly being a soldier. His current client was someone who had been kidnapped months earlier. His sister in law was well aware that his job was dangerous. So I'm really not getting the Diggle comparison. 

Diggle lied to her about the exact nature of his relationship with Oliver. There is a difference between acting as a body guard to a rich kid (as his sister in law has been led to believe) and actively aligning yourself with an illegal vigilante and on occasion even posing as him fighting criminals. Anything Diggle does to aid Oliver in his illegal vigilante work is as valid a comparison to his work as a bodyguard, as Laurel's claim that her meeting with 'the hood', about taking down a criminal was related to her work as a lawyer. They've both lied to people who care for them about the danger they're putting themselves into and the illegal nature of their activities. 

 

For the record, I don't actually have any major issues with the lies being told by Diggle and Laurel. IMO both weren't able to tell the truth due to the illegal nature of aligning with Oliver and the negative response said alignment was likely to provoke. I'm simply pointing out that IMO its a pretty unfair double standard to give some characters a free pass on the lies they tell i.e. hiding the fact they're in league with 'the hood' and then condemn others for the same thing. 

[Mary0360]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Diggle lied to her about the exact nature of his relationship with Oliver. There is a difference between acting as a body guard to a rich kid (as his sister in law has been led to believe) and actively aligning yourself with an illegal vigilante and on occasion even posing as him fighting criminals. Anything Diggle does to aid Oliver in his illegal vigilante work is as valid a comparison to his work as a bodyguard, as Laurel's claim that her meeting with 'the hood', about taking down a criminal was related to her work as a lawyer. They've both lied to people who care for them about the danger they're putting themselves into and the illegal nature of their activities. 

 

For the record, I don't actually have any major issues with the lies being told by Diggle and Laurel. IMO both weren't able to tell the truth due to the illegal nature of aligning with Oliver and the negative response said alignment was likely to provoke. I'm simply pointing out that IMO its a pretty unfair double standard to give some characters a free pass on the lies they tell i.e. hiding the fact they're in league with 'the hood' and then condemn others for the same thing. 

There is a difference between not telling someone something because it's either none of their business, private, secret or something they don't need to know and actually lying to someone's face. Diggle wasn't actively lying. He wasn't using his sister in law the way Quentin was using Laurel. He wasn't even in a relationship with his sister in law at this stage that would require honesty and commitment the way Laurel was with Tommy. He wasnt making promises to his sister in law he wouldn't keep or had no intention of keeping.  

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

There is a difference between not telling someone something because it's either none of their business, private, secret or something they don't need to know and actually lying to someone's face. Diggle wasn't actively lying. He wasn't using his sister in law the way Quentin was using Laurel. He wasn't even in a relationship with his sister in law at this stage that would require honesty and commitment the way Laurel was with Tommy. He wasnt making promises to his sister in law he wouldn't keep or had no intention of keeping.  

I agree with you about Quentin. There's a massive difference between the behaviour of the others and literally using your loved ones as bait. 

I disagree about Laurel and don't see her lies as any worse than Diggle lying to someone he is close to (his sister in law) or Oliver lying to his family (although I'll give him some leeway due to PTSD). 

At this point I think we should agree to agree on Quentin and agree to disagree about Laurel :) 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

He wasn't even in a relationship with his sister in law at this stage that would require honesty and commitment the way Laurel was with Tommy. He wasnt making promises to his sister in law he wouldn't keep or had no intention of keeping.  

I do think there is a difference of expectation of honesty when one is in a serious relationship.  Diggle is there to support his brother's widow and child but they don't have the kind of expectations from each other that makes lying about something big as bad.  And yeah, the difference between not telling Carly about his hood activities which in a way keeps her and her son safer than in the case of Laurel and Tommy where she coming up with a lie must feel like she's excluding him and not trusting him.  

I do get why she hid what she was doing from her dad but I felt she was at least really naive to think she was the injured party for stealing a phone from the hood off her father's desk.  Her father may have let her and then followed her, but she's the one that made the choice to break the rules.  So I did roll my eyes at her level of offense, lol.  

Laurel often has good intentions but doesn't always execute them in a manner that I agree with.  

As for Quark's list, it's kind of a running joke and supposed to be an accounting of all issues even if like with the umbrella, or kidnapping it's not really Laurel's fault, but it's the choices the writers make and how that reflects on Laurel and also the ripple effects of those choices on other characters.   It's widely agreed she could have been given a better treatment with her origin and backstory and other stuff.  So the list can be taken with a grain of salt.  

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Laurel's 'crime' was meeting up with 'the hood' and not informing her loved ones of her alliance with him.

 

Personally, I think Laurel had very valid reasons for lying to Quentin. As he demonstrated had she went to him there was a high chance he would try and ruin the meeting. Of course Laurel isn't a psychic, but his overt hatred for the hood means she doesn't have to be to guess how he'd react. Tommy is a bit more dubious, but considering his own clear wariness of the hood her decision to not inform him is likewise understandable. 

 

I agree that Laurel had valid reasons for lying to Quentin.  In season 1, Quentin was very black and white. He hated Oliver, he hated the Hood, and his job was his salvation. He was even willing to risk his relationship with Laurel so that he could catch The Hood

I also understand why she didn't tell Tommy, although she could have handled that better.  When Laurel gets an idea, she heads straight for the target.

What I did have a problem with was how Laurel blows hot and cold about The Hood.  At the beginning, he's a hero like Oliver could never understand or be (as she herself told Oliver); after the prison riot when he saves her life, he's a murderer and she's never going to contact him again. Then he's the hero she needs to help her with this situation.

Spoiler

This continues into season 2.

The trope is that the hero starts out alone in the story and then gradually gains trusted associates he can be honest with, as he invited Diggle to join after making sure he can trust him.  With Laurel, there's a sense of can he really trust her not to turn him in? so I understand why Oliver invited Diggle to join him on his crusade and didn't invite Laurel even though in her job at CNRI she would have been very useful to have on the team.

Edited March 19, 2018 by statsgirl

[quarks]

21 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I’m a first time viewer so perhaps stuff happens to contradict my following replies in later episodes, but based on what I’ve seen so far. 

Well, as Bkwurm1 says, pretty much all of my "And now, Laurel!" stuff is meant more or less as a joke.

(Unlike my comments on Arrow's multiple budget and set issues. That outrage is real.)

But for some context, if memory serves, someone here suggested doing a season one rewatch shortly after the season two finale. I think this was a few months after a number of posters here had come from a now defunct site called Television Without Pity, and we thought it might be fun to snark on the first season and see how we reached the end of the second season. That "Without Pity" stuff made some of us - well, ok, me - a bit harsh.

But by then, with the benefit of a bit of hindsight, I also wanted to know just how much the writing and narrative choices had contributed to the frequently negative audience perceptions of Laurel - and also, to point out that Laurel's changed role on the show didn't suddenly happen in season two, but in fact stretched way back to season one.  So I started looking at the narrative choices that made traumatized, workaholic Laurel, with her desire to help people, somehow less sympathetic to many viewers than serial killer Oliver who killed 24 people in this episode alone, or even, for that matter, Diggle, the bodyguard who decided to help him - concealing his real job with Oliver Queen from his own family members as a result.  So although you're right, of course, that in this episode Laurel is not ethically much worse than Diggle and certainly not worse than Oliver, my goal wasn't to make that comparison - but rather, to count/highlight the number of times the narrative chose to make Laurel unsympathetic or incompetent, encouraging the audience to

Spoiler

cheer on someone else as Oliver's main love interest. 

As said, benefit of a bit of hindsight.

[tv echo]

Felicity did not appear in this episode - and I didn't transcribe much...

113 (Betrayal) – Oliver Queen’s voiceover intro:
Oliver (voiceover): "My name is Oliver Queen. For five years I was stranded on an island with only one goal... survive. Now I will fulfill my father's dying wish... to use a list of names he left me, to bring down those who are poisoning my city. To do this, I must become someone else. I must become something else."

[tv echo]

Quote

The writers are relying on an empty “they are supposed to be together” promise without providing any evidence why. Neither L*urel nor Oliver has changed in a meaningful way to support giving their relationship another try. The problem between them wasn’t whether or not Oliver fought street crime. The problem was honesty. Between all the lying and just-on-the-line cheating, I’d argue they bring out the worst in each other. Nuclear winter has better chemistry. Need I go on?
*  *  *
The writers haven’t constructed L*urel’s character beyond a hockey puck for Tommy and Oliver to pass to each other until we reach the inevitable conclusion of L*urel “choosing” Oliver. It’s like watching a train speed toward a brick wall. I know the crash is coming, but I’m not apprehensive about it or grotesquely fascinated or even scared. I’m just want out of this Bermuda Triangle.

Edited February 3, 2021 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I rewatched a bunch of S1 the other night. I had absolutely no memory of this episode. 

[Featherhat]

38 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I rewatched a bunch of S1 the other night. I had absolutely no memory of this episode. 

I only remembered it because it had David Anders in it and its the one where Laurel shows off some self defence before getting tazed by him, that obviously was supposed to be BC foreshadowing. 

Jen's right in her review that this is a very standard yet also very toxic love triangle where Oliver ends up openly manipulating the situation by flirting with Laurel as the Hood (and using her as a human shield!) and also (faux) sympathising with Tommy about Laurel lying about the Hood and telling them to get honest with each other, like two versions of him aren't the part of the problem and neither of them know about it. Sure it was Olicity that ruined everything with their soap opera, romance taking over the show nonsense, this was pure Emmy worthy gritty drama! 😆

[lemotomato]

8 hours ago, Chaser said:

I rewatched a bunch of S1 the other night. I had absolutely no memory of this episode. 

My brain pretty much skips from 1x12 (when Felicity gives Oliver Moira's copy of the notebook) to 1x14. Which means all these years I missed the significance of Oliver cutting Laurel off from the Hood (ostensibly because he doesn't want to risk her safety) and then in the very next episode trusting Felicity with his secret and asking her to join the team (And telling that Diggle "We can protect her")

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Jen's right in her review that this is a very standard yet also very toxic love triangle where Oliver ends up openly manipulating the situation by flirting with Laurel as the Hood (and using her as a human shield!) and also (faux) sympathising with Tommy about Laurel lying about the Hood and telling them to get honest with each other, like two versions of him aren't the part of the problem and neither of them know about it. 

I really disliked Oliver in season 1, and I think it's partially because he's around so many other characters that (rightfully) yell at him for being an asshole, but never actually do anything to help him to grow as a person. Diggle and Felicity being the only exceptions.

And the love triangle was absolutely the worst because not only was there no couple to root for, it made Oliver, Tommy, and Laurel horrible people. I wanted them to all get therapy and stay away from each other.

Edited February 4, 2021 by lemotomato