S02.E05: Simon Said

[DittyDotDot]

Sam and Dean meet Andy, a slacker who has psychic powers of persuasion that he uses to gain favors from people.

[DittyDotDot]

So, it's Edlunds first Supernatural foray. Not one of his best, but everyone has to start somewhere, right? I think what Edlund usually does well is whacky and whimsy but also has a special gift with writing dialogue that can otherwise become heavy and monology. I also think that his episodes are best when directed by Phil Scriggia--somehow he gets Edlund.

 

Anyway, I never really cared about the physic kids storyline, so on first watch this one was just okay, but seeing how it all played out in the end makes it harder to enjoy on subsequent viewings. I do like Gabriel Tigerman as Andy, or I like what I think he was supposed to be--the opposite of Webber and a parallel for Sam. Unfortunately, when Andy acts all altruistic and says things like "I have everything I need" things get a little muddied. If he has everything he needs then why does he need to tell people to give him things and do things for him...why wasn't he using his "gifts" positively? I think what may have helped this physic kids storyline better would have been that they ran into someone who was using their gifts to do good or at least thinking they were doing good with them. I know the whole idea is that no matter how they used them, they were bad, but I think I would have been more interested if there was someone out there who was trying to take the bad and make some good. Yes, I'm aware that's what they ultimately did with Sam, but it would have been a better parallel if they went there with someone else too.

 

Things I do like about the episode...Stonehedge and that Barbarian Queen van!  Okay, seriously I like: Dean being scared to run off with Jo because of Ellen; Dean getting Obi Wan'd and forced to barf up his fears;. And Dean singing I Can't Fight This Feeling was a great moment complete with Sam's looks of What?. There was some good progression of Dean's growing worry about Sam and anger at John. Some good progression with Sam thinking that something was really wrong and his growing worry about what it all means.

 

So it's not all bad here, but if I didn't have some ridiculous tradition of watching every episode in order over the summer, I'd probably skip this one altogether.

[AwesomO4000]

I see where you're coming from with the using the powers for good thing, @DittyDotDot, but in a way, I kinda like that the show didn't go there (similar to how I liked that the show didn't go the "power of love" route and have Sam not trying to shoot Dean in "Asylum"). For me, with Andy's power it would be somewhat idealistic for him 1) Not to be tempted to just skate by and 2) to be able to do good with it. Because what is good? Being able to get people to do things for you could easily turn into a "Monkey Paw" type situation. What might seem good at the time, could easily turn bad - an example from later might be Dean and his turn at playing Death. It seemed like a good idea to spare the little girl, but it turned bad quickly. Kind of like what happened when Andy did use his powers to do good. He saved Sam by doing so, but at the same time he lost his potential future happiness with Tracy. Part of the interest for me with the powers for the psychic kids was the somewhat realistic look at them. It's so easy to be tempted or to make a mistake - like the woman who accidentally touched her girlfriend and made her heart stop.

 

Besides, I doubt Yellow Eyes would have let Andy go around doing good all over the place. He likely would've put a stop to that fairly quickly. His motivation was to get himself a powerful person who'd be open to evil. Look what he did to (previously) nice Ava. He shipped her off fairly quickly, likely expecting her to get killed off quickly. Andy was unknowingly smart to fly under the radar and do neither good or bad. Sam got a being good exception for being a "favorite" through Mary, and because he killed things - even if they were monsters.

 

As for the rest of the episode - In addition to the good bits that you pointed out, I also liked the opening sequence with Sam's vision of the doctor and how that was cut into Sam having the vision. And I liked the creepiness of Webber, especially that scene between him and Andy's ex-girlfriend, Tracy. The "you can fly, can't you"/"I think so" exchange was one of the creepier of the season for me. I felt the tension and was truly concerned for Tracy even though she was just a minor one off character.

 

This is one that I like watching, especially for those parts that you and I mentioned. It's the next episode that I generally skip on rewatch.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think I expressed my thoughts very well @AwesomO4000. What I was trying to say was that it could have been interesting if they had come across someone who thought they were doing good with this power...like they saw it as a gift they needed to live up to. They didn't necessarily need to be actually doing good, but thinking they were.  I guess I was mostly thinking that it would have been interesting to see someone try to become a crime fighter or something, but still getting it wrong...I don't know. And I don't know that I wanted that to be Andy necessarily, but thought it would have been an interesting story to have seen.

 

It's not like I think Andy was totally bad, I just feel like they wanted us to see Andy as the good guy when I think he's just not the bad guy--if that makes any sense.

Edited July 12, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Pretty good episode, nothing special. I liked Andy, and that he spent his time getting all ~existential~ in his van, but didn't actually think that deeply about anything in his real life (even his gift). And I have a softspot for potheads.

 

A couple of my favorite scenes:

 

-- when Andy's with the Winchesters at the records office, and the brothers are piecing together his whole life story and explain what's happening to him now, all right in front of him and at breakneck pace. Andy looks paler and paler, but it's all in a day's work to the guys, *and* they're happy about the similarities in his case and Sam's because it means they're on the right track in terms of their overall investigation into Yellow Eyes. I love how Andy has this regular-person, sickened kind of reaction, but the Winchesters are such pros.

 

-- when Dean's driving through town, and Andy runs up to him and starts admiring the car, and it seems like they're starting to hit it off a little, and then Andy asks for the car and Dean cheerfully gives it to him. It was hilarious. It's so fantastical in this mundane, relatable way.

 

Anyway, I liked Dean in this episode, I thought he was pretty funny. Sam's storyline and dialogue was sort of dull -- but his hair has been looking relatively good, so I guess there's that.

 

OH that reminds me! Watching these episodes from S2, Jared used to have such a southern accent. I can't tell if it's that his "American Standard English" accent used to slip more or if he naturally only ever had an accent when he said certain words, but whichever way, it's adorable. I think he put three syllables in the word "cell" when he said "cell phone." It sounded like he said, "see-uh-el phone" :P

 

I wish that there'd been more time spent with Webber, I was curious about him and his intense fixation on his brother. It didn't seem like he was trying to "Single White Female" him or anything, he just REALLY wanted to be close and didn't know how? Idk, I thought he was potentially interesting.

 

Anyway! Why is the music at the Roadhouse so lousy? I mean, I think it was lousy on purpose. But when the guys were back there to talk to Ellen at the end, I was completely distracted by the Soundgarden on the jukebox! Not that Soundgarden is *terrible* exactly, it's just not AT ALL what anyone would want to hear while at some bar in the middle of nowhere, is it? Why not just go all out and have Kurt Cobain singing, "Rape Me," if you're going to go weirdly pop-grunge with the music selection. LOL. Well anyway. I did like hearing Dean sing "Can't Fight This Feeling"! He sounded reasonably good. I wish that Sam had decided to beatbox him some backup so it wasn't entirely a capella, but I guess Sam was busy concentrating on other things.

[catrox14]

My favorite part was Dean being unable to not tell Andy why they were following him. That was another master class of Jensen's comedy chops.  Dean KNEW he was telling him stuff and yet he couldn't NOT tell him and it was awful and hilarious to watch. 

[supposebly]

Mine too. And Andy's: I have an evil twin. never fails to elicit a giggle from me. It's all in the delivery.

[sarthaz]

Since when does Sam need Ash's help using the Internet to look something up?  Season 1 shows us these guys are the greatest researchers the world has ever known, and now Sam has a logo for a bus that says "Blue Ridge" on it, and he can't figure out it's from Blue Ridge Bus Company without buying Dr. Badass a PBR?  Where's the script supervisor?

[bettername2come]

I'm a sucker for the "Dean tries to protect Sam" from other Hunters trope, so his worry about taking Vision!Sammy to the Roadhouse for help gets me. I'm also a sucker for "Sam thinks he's gonna go evil" plots, so obviously I enjoy this one.

I have a friend who still does the "Damn right REO" line any time this song is referenced. This may be my favorite Dean singing moment.

Whose idea was it to have Dean with a comforting hand on Sam as they sit on the ground watching the bus accident, only to have him pull away when the camera draws closer? I'd like to have a word with them.

Andy's great. Not a psycho, not a hero, just a guy. From his terror at the gigantic non-mind controlled Sam coming towards him to "I have an evil twin" he was a thoroughly entertaining character. And good job on casting. Once it's known, I really buy Andy and the other guy as brothers.

The Tracy actress did a good job with a relatively small role. The look on her face when she realizes Andy has the mind control powers too and is using them on her is fantastic.

Ellen is awesome.

I have an inordinate amount of love for Sam's cast in season two, mostly due to this episode. I mean, he uses it to whack a rapist in the face. That may even make me put it right below the Impala in terms of "best performance by an inanimate object on Supernatural."

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, bettername2come said:

I have a friend who still does the "Damn right REO" line any time this song is referenced.

Heh, I used, "He sings it from the hair. There's a difference" for a puzzle in the hangman thread recently. 

[Zipper]

Enjoyable overall. "These aren't the droids you're looking for" was a cute tribute line, riffing off Dean's earlier comment. And I loved the moment, after Sam confronted Dean about what he said under Andy's influence, and Dean, leaning onto the roof of the Impala FINGER WAGS at Sam about being roofied and how that doesn't count, "Do Over!" Sam's response and tone are perfect, "What are you, seven?"  

Not the weight of some previous episodes, but I like having an episode with a bit less direct threat to the brothers as a breather. Sure, several people died, but I'm fully good with Webber's ending. And I thought they did a nice job of showing how benign the powers were with Andy, and how gross Webber got with his. Although, Andy's early scene waving goodbye at the second-story, rumpled blonde suggests maybe he wasn't above using his powers on the ladies.  His treatment of Tracy suggests maybe not, but it was clear he cared about her in ways he may not have. Ooohhh, I remember a bit more about No Exit. Preparing to be creeped out.

[AwesomO4000]

On 9/4/2018 at 6:17 PM, Zipper said:

Although, Andy's early scene waving goodbye at the second-story, rumpled blonde suggests maybe he wasn't above using his powers on the ladies.  

In my head canon, she's a working gal, and Andy paid her with "borrowed" (i.e. stolen) money. I guess I just can't see him as doing what Webber did... which was so damn creepy. That scene with Webber and Tracy in the car where he asks her "you can fly, can't you?" and she answers "I think so," was one of the creepiest and dismaying scenes of the series for me. Well acted by both.

[Zipper]

I like that idea, AwesomeO4000, that she was a working girl. Hadn't thought of that.  Yes, that car scene gave me the heebies, and it made me perfectly ready for Webber's prompt demise. 

[DittyDotDot]

On 9/6/2018 at 1:37 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

In my head canon, she's a working gal, and Andy paid her with "borrowed" (i.e. stolen) money. I guess I just can't see him as doing what Webber did... which was so damn creepy. That scene with Webber and Tracy in the car where he asks her "you can fly, can't you?" and she answers "I think so," was one of the creepiest and dismaying scenes of the series for me. Well acted by both.

I concur. Every time I see the actor who plays Webber it always makes me shiver and utter, "Ugh, it's Andy's evil and extremely creepy brother!" Funny how that happens.

Also, I'm not even sure Andy was having sex with the woman in the window considering his hang up on Tracy. I always wonder if he just didn't use his gift to talk his way into her apartment just for a real bed, shower and breakfast? But, I guess it's all up to interpretation on that front.

[The Companion]

On 9/4/2018 at 5:17 PM, Zipper said:

Enjoyable overall. "These aren't the droids you're looking for" was a cute tribute line, riffing off Dean's earlier comment. And I loved the moment, after Sam confronted Dean about what he said under Andy's influence, and Dean, leaning onto the roof of the Impala FINGER WAGS at Sam about being roofied and how that doesn't count, "Do Over!" Sam's response and tone are perfect, "What are you, seven?"  

Not the weight of some previous episodes, but I like having an episode with a bit less direct threat to the brothers as a breather. Sure, several people died, but I'm fully good with Webber's ending. And I thought they did a nice job of showing how benign the powers were with Andy, and how gross Webber got with his. Although, Andy's early scene waving goodbye at the second-story, rumpled blonde suggests maybe he wasn't above using his powers on the ladies.  His treatment of Tracy suggests maybe not, but it was clear he cared about her in ways he may not have. Ooohhh, I remember a bit more about No Exit. Preparing to be creeped out.

On 9/8/2018 at 7:08 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I concur. Every time I see the actor who plays Webber it always makes me shiver and utter, "Ugh, it's Andy's evil and extremely creepy brother!" Funny how that happens.

Also, I'm not even sure Andy was having sex with the woman in the window considering his hang up on Tracy. I always wonder if he just didn't use his gift to talk his way into her apartment just for a real bed, shower and breakfast? But, I guess it's all up to interpretation on that front.

I don't think we necessarily need to interpret the scene as him using his powers to get her into bed directly anyway. He could have used them to give her a really good date (backstage at a concert, really expensive meal, etc.) It didn't take long for the powers to wear off. She probably wouldn't have been that happy. See, for example, how quick Dean went from: here is the car to what just happened? 

I loved this episode. Absolutely loved it. I loved the power and the mystery. I criticized this show for the adoption = evil trope last season, but there was a narrative reason here. Splitting twins would never happen today, but it very famously did in the past. Interesting that only one twin got a visit. That indicates genes or something similar rather than the powers coming from the demon at the 6 month visit (a possibility that I was entertaining). 

The idea of controlling people isn't new, but I thought it was well done here. There were some light moments (loved Dean singing) that were a bit of a welcome tone change at this point in the season. It was also visually a good break from the four prior episodes which had a lot if darkness and shadows.

To me, this was a really strong one. 

[Aeryn13]

I remember this being my first real stinker of Season 2, just wasn't into the psy-kids storyline.

In hindsight with the episodes we have now, it's probably middling to eh for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I remember this being my first real stinker of Season 2, just wasn't into the psy-kids storyline.

In hindsight with the episodes we have now, it's probably middling to eh for me.

It did give us Sniper Dean though.

[Katy M]

22 hours ago, The Companion said:

I don't think we necessarily need to interpret the scene as him using his powers to get her into bed directly anyway. He could have used them to give her a really good date (backstage at a concert, really expensive meal, etc.) It didn't take long for the powers to wear off. She probably wouldn't have been that happy. See, for example, how quick Dean went from: here is the car to what just happened? 

I agree.  Andy was a good guy.  Yeah, he stole some stuff by not paying off his credit cards (not that much different than S&D), but he wasn't greedy, he just took what he needed, and he seemed to genuinely like most people.  I can't see him raping someone and then justifying it by saying he talked them into liking it. He even told Sam that he had never used his thing on Tracy before, so he knew there were limits to what he should do, even if there weren't limits to what he could do.

Also, I agree on your other point. Anson was stronger than Andy and Tracy was still crying when he told her to get undressed. To be fair, Anson probably didn't care about making Tracy happy about it, but still.