S06.E11: Love Is A Battlefield

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

 I thought Frost and Nash had some chemistry. 

DP and TC have really good chemistry, I don't know why they don't have TC play a character that could pair well with Caitlin. 

[Trini]

Adding to my list of Indicators That Barry is Filthy RIch:

• Shrugs off Iris buying expensive kitchen appliances.
• Supersuit literally decorated with gold.

(Not to mention Iris' 392 jackets, while Barry cycles through the same 5 shirts, LOL!)

[quarks]

1. This is almost certainly the fault of Amazon, not the writers, but can you imagine how much better/more effective that Alexa placement bit would have been as a Joe scene - with Joe showing off just how much time he can save and what he can do with Alexa, making him "almost as fast as the Flash!" They could have included Barry in that scene, too. As it was, all I kept thinking is, why is literally the last person on the planet who needs Alexa or Amazon Prime using Alexa?

2. Great showcase episode for Candice Patton - arguably the best Flash has ever written for her. Between this and the way Iris is finally getting to use her skills and investigate stuff - this is all great. I honestly didn't realize it wasn't Iris until the Italian came up - at which point I realized just what a great job Patton was doing as Almost But Not Quite Iris.

The question is: will Barry remember all of the completely valid stuff Siri was saying about her career/job once Siri is inevitably exposed? Since this would require continuity on the show, I'm guessing not.

3. Considerably less great: whatever the hell is going on with Caitlin/Frost. Is there some sort of rule on this show that they can only write decent plots/scenes for one woman at a time? (Especially given that Danielle Nicolet was also absent from this episode.) I can, off the top of my head, think of about six things that Caitlin/Frost could have been doing that would have been more interesting than helping a tertiary character realize that she was over her ex - an ex that we've never met. 

I realize that Flash is struggling with budget issues - thus the Alexa thing and the inability to hire day players for Caitlin/Frost to talk to, which eliminated any speed dating plots, not to mention the need to keep Caitlin/Frost on existing sets and using as little CGI as possible, but even with those constraints, I feel Caitlin/Frost could have been doing something more interesting. Or at least had the dialogue tweaked to be a touch more interesting. 

 

[adora721]

5 hours ago, quarks said:

3. Considerably less great: whatever the hell is going on with Caitlin/Frost. Is there some sort of rule on this show that they can only write decent plots/scenes for one woman at a time? (Especially given that Danielle Nicolet was also absent from this episode.) I can, off the top of my head, think of about six things that Caitlin/Frost could have been doing that would have been more interesting than helping a tertiary character realize that she was over her ex - an ex that we've never met. 

 

If only they had a ready-made plot for her like, you know, her mother becoming a meta-human since the test in S5 was positive. Something like that might be interesting and logical for Cait/Killer Frost. You'd think Killer Frost would want to get to know her mommy better and explore KF's so-called humanity through her mother's metamorphosis into an evil meta. Perhaps the so-called "reformed" Killer Frost would guide her mom's alternate personality away from the dark side.

There must be something in the contracts that keeps that character in every episode even if there's no logical reason for it. It's as if the contract is treating DP like she's a lead even though she isn't. Nothing else makes sense.

Edited February 13, 2020 by adora721

[Quark]

Candice Patton is superb and looked even more beautiful than she usually does this episode.

I love episodes that focus on Iris. Very curious to see how this storyline progresses.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, adora721 said:

There must be something in the contracts that keeps that character in every episode even if there's no logical reason for it. It's as if the contract is treating DP like she's a lead even though she isn't. Nothing else makes sense.

After this episode and the ridiculous filler they used with KF/Allegra, it because obvious to me that the show is handcuffed with DP - clearly DP's agent (AJK's wife, right?) worked on a shadow "lead contract" with AJK (her best buddy who gave her the role without her ever having to audition and earn it - never mind that he even changed the character from an older woman to a young woman so he could HAND it over to his buddy DP who AGAIN - NEVER AUDITIONED).

It's the only thing that makes sense to me too - there is NO reason why DP should be so prominent (she still gets nearly the same amount of screen time as the actual female lead (CP) and in some cases she got more) - it has to be contracts that the show can't or is afraid to break and renegotiate.

[legaleagle53]

On 2/11/2020 at 9:09 PM, Lantern7 said:

Amunet and Goldface have problems. I don't think instant mind-reading is a long-term fix. At least those two going at it wasn't as gross as the time Mick Rory boned his three-breasted warrior woman literary creation.

Oh, I don't know about that. Barry and Not!Iris seemed pretty grossed out at the make-up sex -- Barry even said that he'd never be able to unsee it!

[legaleagle53]

On 2/11/2020 at 11:03 PM, Trini said:

I think the biggest clues were the pancakes and knowing Italian.

The last one would definitely have been a red flag for me. I'd have asked her "Wait, we grew up around each other, and I remember when you used to barely get by in eighth-grade Spanish. Since when are you suddenly fluent in Italian?"

[Featherhat]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

After this episode and the ridiculous filler they used with KF/Allegra, it because obvious to me that the show is handcuffed with DP - clearly DP's agent (AJK's wife, right?) worked on a shadow "lead contract" with AJK (her best buddy who gave her the role without her ever having to audition and earn it - never mind that he even changed the character from an older woman to a young woman so he could HAND it over to his buddy DP who AGAIN - NEVER AUDITIONED).

It's the only thing that makes sense to me too - there is NO reason why DP should be so prominent (she still gets nearly the same amount of screen time as the actual female lead (CP) and in some cases she got more) - it has to be contracts that the show can't or is afraid to break and renegotiate.

Lots of actors never audition for roles. It's not a great thing for things like chemistry reads (see Arrow) but it happens especially when you're the most famous (young) actor in the group. I'm sure she has a very good contract and professional team in place. There's no reason to think she has a "shadow lead contract" that defacto makes her the female lead worked on with AJK who was very far from the only one making those decisions. Berlanti Productions, WB, DC etc would have had to agree to anything legal and binding. And if it was only a promise to DP from Kreisberg, well he's been gone for years now and she's still on the show. Her contract might stipulate being in every episode - allegedly  that's been an issue on LOT, but that's different than some underhanded thing you're talking about here. 

This episode and many of the ones before it didn't do her many favours or treat her like a lead. It gave Allegra some backstory with her life and powers, continued the  Real Girl stuff, fit in with the Valentine's theme and whatever's going on with Nash's also fillerish seeming Harry/daughter plot. She might be in all the episodes but doesn't often have the A plot or anything in the way of meaningful/challenging storylines.

Meanwhile the leading lady of this episode was perfectly clear for once and there's a hope in hell that we might actually get some talk about the consent and betrayal issues it brings up (even if not specifically about the sex) whilst there's almost no chance of anything meaty around consent etc with this storyline with Caitlin gone for episodes at a time. 

[Sweet Tooth]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:17 AM, ruby24 said:

Guessing they will never even address the fact that whoever this imposter is, Barry is actually, you know, sleeping with her since they're married.

It's so funny. I'm currently binge-watching Fringe, and there's something similar that went on there...spoiler alert for those who care:

In the series, they went to another universe where there was another version of the lead character (Olivia) who'd just recently started up a relationship with Peter. When our world's Olivia went over there, she was switched out. So when Fauxlivia came to our world, she continued on with the relationship with Peter, even though she was in a serious one of her own in her world.

This included sleeping with him, etc.

When Olivia came back, she had a hard time dealing with how Peter couldn't detect it wasn't her.

He said that he attributed her happier nature (Fauxlivia's past wasn't as tragic as Olivia's) to their new relationship, and even when he would ask Fauxlivia about her changes, just like MirrorIris, she had a reasonable explanation.

Anyway, Fauxlivia lived in Olivia's house, wore her clothes, and slept with her boyfriend, so understandably, she was a bit traumatized by the whole thing. 

So I'm wondering how long they're going to drag this out and how Iris will feel about Barry's relationship with her doppelganger. 

When Barry wasn't Barry, he wasn't trying to fool anyone. He just had a major personality shift. She didn't say anything to him about her concerns, so he could bat them away, and when she went to her friends and said, "That's not him," they were all on board, unlike here, where Joe's like, "Meh, don't worry about it. This is a totally normal part of marriage." I would have been more concerned if Barry didn't notice and didn't mention anything to anyone. But if everyone's telling you you're crazy, you believe them.

 

[Trini]

15 minutes ago, Sweet Tooth said:

So I'm wondering how long they're going to drag this out and how Iris will feel about Barry's relationship with her doppelganger. 

When Barry wasn't Barry, he wasn't trying to fool anyone. He just had a major personality shift. She didn't say anything to him about her concerns, so he could bat them away, and when she went to her friends and said, "That's not him," they were all on board, unlike here, where Joe's like, "Meh, don't worry about it. This is a totally normal part of marriage." I would have been more concerned if Barry didn't notice and didn't mention anything to anyone. But if everyone's telling you you're crazy, you believe them.

I hope it's not dragged out too long; or even if Iris is trapped for a while, I hope Barry figures it out. He did notice the differences right away.

One difference between this and the situation on Fringe is that the doppelganger was a different person and purposefully took over the original life; here, Mirror Iris seems to have Real Iris' memories/knowledge, and I'm not 100% sure that she knows she's a copy (if that's what she is).

[Sweet Tooth]

1 minute ago, Trini said:

I hope it's not dragged out too long; or even if Iris is trapped for a while, I hope Barry figures it out. He did notice the differences right away.

One difference between this and the situation on Fringe is that the doppelganger was a different person and purposefully took over the original life; here, Mirror Iris seems to have Real Iris' memories/knowledge, and I'm not 100% sure that she knows she's a copy (if that's what she is).

Yes, I agree. I was mostly referring to the Fringe situation in terms of the betrayal and violation Olivia felt.

Iris having to actually witness it is even worse. 

I'm just wondering whether the show will brush this off or if it will have repercussions.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Sweet Tooth said:

I'm just wondering whether the show will brush this off or if it will have repercussions.

The show tends to not linger on anything negative, but they have been trying new things this season....

Edited February 14, 2020 by Trini

[Featherhat]

Ordinarily I'd say they would definitely sweep it under the rug with completely minimal discussion like they've done with so many interesting and potentially meaty plot points. However considering this episode didn't end with Barry or someone else discovering that it was Siri not Iris *and* she brought up some valid points during the gaslighting I'm hopeful there will be a follow up storyline about dealing with the emotional ramifications of accidental betrayal and imprisonment and watching someone steal your life. 

Fringe was a deeper and more dramatic show so the Fauxlivia storyline was dramatic (somewhat melodramatic sometimes) and had consequences but this should also be the time The Flash doesn't completely brush things under the carpet. The longer it goes on the more likely they are to address it but I also hope it doesn't go on forever ala Frog Eating Clone/Amnesia  as discussed up thread. 

I think Siri probably does know who she is because she was very smooth with her answers and that look in the mirror etc but there's enough wiggle room that she could brush off any strangeness as COIE affects (even to herself). Or play it like she really needs to become Iris for reasons. 

[RedVitC]

I can't really see Siri (brilliant name idea!) as  a just more assertive version of Iris. Even without the evil-ish look at the end she felt too manipulative to me, and a little callous. Especially about hitting the guy over the head with the bottle (not necessarily the act, since you can say it was undercover, but her attitude about it after). I just can't see Iris in that. With all the lying she did (about her arm which was clearly fine, for example) I can't see her not knowing she's mirror Iris/not the real Iris

Speaking of, maybe I'm looking too much into this, but we know Iris can handle herself and she has been handling herself for seasons now. I know they played Barry's worry up in this episode, but the narrative that no one wants her to go out in the field because it's too dangerous hasn't been in the show for years. Not for Barry, not even for Joe I think. They even made a point in episode 10 to have Joe say he wouldn't ask her to stop. I think the last time it was kind of an issue is 4x16 (please let me know if I'm forgetting something!) and even then it wasn't about people not wanting her to go out in the field. Ralph said Iris was leader from behind the desk and never went into the field. Barry told her she didn't need to prove herself to anyone, but  when she said she wanted to prove it to herself there was zero objection. So with the damsel line in the trailer I was kind of ???, but since it's Siri and not really Iris saying it, I guess

tbh, I want people to think more about how Iris is doing, not less. I know she'll be instrumental in getting herself out of the mirror (and that is awesome, and I'm happy that Iris is such a big part of this story arc, and I'm intrigued by the mirrorverse), but what I don't want to see is the rest of the team, and especially Barry, going on with their merry way for episodes on end because they don't know a fake Iris is in their midst, while Iris is on the other side of the mirror fending for herself. 

 

About Danielle, she did audition. I remembered reading about it and in this article (which has transcriptions from a panel she did with David Rapaport on casting) she talks about auditioning (after the part in the article where Rapaport talks about how fast these things can go)

Quote

Panabaker, who plays Dr. Caitlin Snow/Killer Frost on “The Flash,” said her audition for the role happened very quickly, with the whole process taking less than week.

“I remember I was in New York, and I flew back and I think I met with David Nutter, the director of the pilot, and then read for you and Andrew and a handful of people on a Tuesday,” Panabaker said. “I read for you guys on Tuesday, went to studio on Thursday, and tested on Friday and got the call from Greg Friday afternoon that I got it.”

 

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, RedVitC said:

I can't really see Siri (brilliant name idea!) as  a just more assertive version of Iris. Even without the evil-ish look at the end she felt too manipulative to me, and a little callous. Especially about hitting the guy over the head with the bottle (not necessarily the act, since you can say it was undercover, but her attitude about it after). I just can't see Iris in that. With all the lying she did (about her arm which was clearly fine, for example) I can't see her not knowing she's mirror Iris/not the real Iris

Speaking of, maybe I'm looking too much into this, but we know Iris can handle herself and she has been handling herself for seasons now. I know they played Barry's worry up in this episode, but the narrative that no one wants her to go out in the field because it's too dangerous hasn't been in the show for years. Not for Barry, not even for Joe I think. They even made a point in episode 10 to have Joe say he wouldn't ask her to stop. I think the last time it was kind of an issue is 4x16 (please let me know if I'm forgetting something!) and even then it wasn't about people not wanting her to go out in the field. Ralph said Iris was leader from behind the desk and never went into the field. Barry told her she didn't need to prove herself to anyone, but  when she said she wanted to prove it to herself there was zero objection. So with the damsel line in the trailer I was kind of ???, but since it's Siri and not really Iris saying it, I guess

tbh, I want people to think more about how Iris is doing, not less. I know she'll be instrumental in getting herself out of the mirror (and that is awesome, and I'm happy that Iris is such a big part of this story arc, and I'm intrigued by the mirrorverse), but what I don't want to see is the rest of the team, and especially Barry, going on with their merry way for episodes on end because they don't know a fake Iris is in their midst, while Iris is on the other side of the mirror fending for herself. 

 

About Danielle, she did audition. I remembered reading about it and in this article (which has transcriptions from a panel she did with David Rapaport on casting) she talks about auditioning (after the part in the article where Rapaport talks about how fast these things can go)

 

Fair enough - I stand corrected.

[Starry]

On 2/15/2020 at 1:04 AM, RedVitC said:

I can't really see Siri (brilliant name idea!) as  a just more assertive version of Iris. Even without the evil-ish look at the end she felt too manipulative to me, and a little callous. Especially about hitting the guy over the head with the bottle (not necessarily the act, since you can say it was undercover, but her attitude about it after). I just can't see Iris in that. With all the lying she did (about her arm which was clearly fine, for example) I can't see her not knowing she's mirror Iris/not the real Iris.

I think the biggest red flag to me was when she and Barry were watching Amunet and Goldface fight, the security guard got hurt and she didn't want Barry to go help him. I can't see our Iris being so callous and calculating in that moment. She wouldn't miss a chance to help innocent people.

I think SirI is Iris at her best when it comes to being assertive, logical, a quick thinker and coming up with plans and carrying them out. But she lacks the empathy and sensitivity that our Iris has. When she and Barry were arguing she brought up some very good points about trusting her instincts and being able to save herself from an assassin while he was busy on some island but I thought she was being insensitive about it. She wasn't wrong. Barry's instincts were way off in that moment but I can't see our Iris calling him out on it considering what he was going through.

I wonder if the longer SirI stays the more apparent it becomes that she lacks the empathy that our Iris has and that will eventually tip Barry off. Despite all the explanations he was still feeling like they weren't connecting.

I have a theory that SirI is our Iris but without her soul. When she got trapped in the mirror the more calculating and cold parts of her personality escaped while her more human and empathetic self got stuck in there. I would rather this than SirI being a total imposter.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

I would rather this than SirI being a total imposter.

I'm good with all explanations that make Siri some version of Iris ... Because I don't want all that I saw this episode to go away when we get Iris  back

[Trini]

I think if Siri is split off from Iris (she's still part of Iris) that might be the best scenario .

[DearEvette]

It is going to be interesting to hear how they explain Siri. 

To me, it seems like a 'Dark Mirror' version of Iris herself.  She is still Iris but some of the darker, less admirable aspects of Iris' personality distilled and brought to the forefront and drown out her better self sometimes.  Since we know Iris is still inside the mirror and Siri is enough like Iris as to only seem a little off... but not completely different, it seems like she is still Iris.

Doesn't explain the Italian tho. 

Also this Iris wears edgier (read = villainess-trope) clothing.  Even her eyebrows looked a little edgier, sharper.  LOL.

I rewatched the last scene and don't know if we actually got an evil smile from Siri.  It feels like even tho she was looking at the mirror, but not really looking at Iris in the mirror.  At one point her eyes were closed and she as hugging Barry and when she opened her eyes she was just contentedly hugging Barry. 

So yeah, very curious what explanation we'll get.

[Trini]

Other little stuff I liked in this episode:

- Barry downing the best pancakes he's had in ages, and knowing when to shut up; LOL

- Barry's "I'm still a cop!" (even though we never see that lately).

- The use of the comedy Rule of Three with the 'onesie' bit.

- Is this the first episode we haven't seen STAR Labs at all?

- Codeword: Banana

- That poor security guard that everyone was ignoring.

- All of Iris' outfits.

- Callback to the previous Valentine's episode - even though it wasn't the real Iris. 😭

This:

[Trini]