The White Queen - General Discussion

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Duchess Cecily: I'm going to my daughter's palace in Burgundy. At least there there'll be something to drink.

[stinkogingko]

On 4/22/2017 at 6:30 PM, WatchrTina said:

 

But sticking to the topic of The White Queen -- what an interesting take on the War of the Roses.  In this version, Henry VII owes all his success and his kingship to his mother's smarmy second husband riding into the fight at the last minute.  Is there ANY historical validity to that?  I guess it doesn't matter -- it made for good drama (except that, you know, we all already knew how Richard III dies -- "A horse!  A horse!  My kingdom for a horse!")

 

It was actually his mother's smarmy fourth husband but otherwise correct.

[MrsE]

And her brother in law.  HVII was no mug though and knew an untrustworthy man when he saw one;  the relationship didn't save Stanley's life later in the reign.

There is some truth in the Stanleys' intervention having won the day for Henry, but it also seems that they held off until it became apparent that Richard was done for, and of course once he was dead it was all over.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Elizabeth W: Perhaps now we have the boy who will bring back peace to England- half York, half Tudor.
Margaret: He is only Tudor. And he is not just a boy. He is my son's heir and heir to the throne of England. Of that there is no doubt.
Elizabeth W: There is always doubt, Lady Margaret, for I once had two boys who were destined there themselves. Nothing is ever certain. Or can you read the future?

Cecily: I don't think I should like to be queen. The clothes are all too ugly.

Henry: Everywhere I look around me, nobles conspire against me. Servants slip each other notes. They smile into my face and then behind me draw their knives.
Elizabeth Y: That is what it is to be king.

Henry: I don't ask that you love me in the way that you loved [Richard]. But I had hoped that you may come to have a tenderness at least. Kindness even.
Elizabeth Y: And would that be enough for you? You don't want someone who burns to be with you? Someone who rides across the battlefield just to hear your voice?

Henry: I know you cannot love me. I know it is beyond what you can give. I only ask that you do not plot against my life. At least spare me that humiliation.

[Libby96]

Henry VII regarding Perkin Warbeck, the pretender to the throne:  "He taunts me with his dazzle."

That is perfect.  I need to find a way to work this into everyday conversation.

[morakot]

Just started this and remembered why I stopped last time. Elizabeth Woodville is supposed to be this transcendent beauty with silver-gilt hair (presumably platinum blond) not red-haired with freckles (and not THAT beautiful).  Also, cannot get over the fact that her dress has a zipper in the back and she's wearing a bra under it.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On April 24, 2017 at 2:47 PM, stinkogingko said:

It was actually his mother's smarmy fourth husband but otherwise correct.

Who am I missing? Edmund, Henry Stafford, Lord Stanley ... I may not have gotten to the fourth because I'm still a little behind (much more up-to-date on the Tudors from HVIII on, but my late mom was a member of the RIII society and I've been unemployed and I missed WQ first time around, so am in the midst of a blitz of bingewatching WQ and reading the whole Gregory oeuvre in chronological order and will pick up with White Princess when I get there in the books).

So far, Stafford is pretty much my favorite character in WQ (assuming I have name right ... Stafford being Margaret's long-suffering husband who did NOT father her baby and looked on while she made googoo eyes with Jasper, yes?)

Edited June 10, 2017 by PamelaMaeSnap
Because "reading" makes more sense than "eading"

[stinkogingko]

Margaret Beaufort was initially married to John de la Pole, heir of the duke of Suffolk. The marriage was annulled, presumably so the very wealthy Margaret could be given to the King's not-very-wealthy half brother Edmund Tudor. De la Pole was then wed to an earlier Elizabeth of York, sister to Edward IV and Richard III. Their son was the Earl of LIncoln that fought Henry VII at Stoke.

[NYCNJbear06]

Watched a program over the weekend where thru records they make a provable claim (historical records) that Edward VI (Lizzie's daddy) was actually illegitimate.  Church records show that Ed's daddy was not even in the country during the time he was conceived making it more plausible that he was the result of Cecily's affair with an archer.   With Edward not being the legal heir by birthright they explained that Maggie (Margaret Pole) and her children were the true heirs and they tracked down the living heir who lives in Australia.  Interesting stuff.  If that were true there would have been no Henry VIII (England may still be Catholic), no ELizabeth I, no Victoria, no current royal family.  

[Bill1978]

Just found this on Eddie's Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_IV_of_England#Legitimacy

 

Even if Edward IV was illegitimate, he could in any case claim the crown from Henry VI by right of conquest. He also had a direct (albeit legally barred) blood-claim to the throne through his mother Cecily, who was a great-granddaughter of Edward III through John of Gaunt and his illegitimate daughter (Cecily's mother) Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland. Although this claim is via an illegitimate line, it is the same as the claim of Henry Tudor, who dislodged the House of York from the throne in 1485. It is also disputed that the line was in fact illegitimate, as John of Gaunt Duke of Lancaster married his mistress Katherine Swynford, who was the mother of the Beauforts, after the death of his second wife Costanza of Castile. The Beauforts were thus 'legitimised' and acknowledged as such by Richard II, though with the proviso as noted above that they would barred from succession to the crown.

 

So I guess, history still could have followed the path it did even if he was illegitimate.

[Scarlett45]

Anyone see this?!! We should maybe start a Spanish Princess sub thread when we gave an air date. 

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/starz-the-spanish-princess-charlotte-hope-casting-1202813705/

[txvoodoo]

Very psyched for this. 

[watcher1006]

The Tudor era story is that Richard of Gloucester had Edward IV's sons declared illegitimate because his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous in order to claim the throne for himself. Still, given Edward's reputation as a womanizer who was known to have mistresses, is there any possibility that Edward had exchanged marriage vows with a previous woman in order to bed her? One would think that Gloucester, being close to his brother and loyal throughout the Wars of the Roses, could have been in a position to know.

[Nessie]

On 5/17/2018 at 2:51 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Anyone see this?!! We should maybe start a Spanish Princess sub thread when we gave an air date. 

http://variety.com/2018/tv/news/starz-the-spanish-princess-charlotte-hope-casting-1202813705/

Looks like none of the cast of The White Princess is returning so once again, there will be no cast continuity.  And also once again, it's based on Phillipa Gregory's revisionist history.  Ah well...I missed all the delightful snarking during both the first two series - I just watched both this past week.  I'm looking forward to joining in for this one, as I'm sure it won't be any better than those were.

[Scarlett45]

On 7/12/2018 at 9:36 AM, watcher1006 said:

The Tudor era story is that Richard of Gloucester had Edward IV's sons declared illegitimate because his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous in order to claim the throne for himself. Still, given Edward's reputation as a womanizer who was known to have mistresses, is there any possibility that Edward had exchanged marriage vows with a previous woman in order to bed her? One would think that Gloucester, being close to his brother and loyal throughout the Wars of the Roses, could have been in a position to know.

True, but if that was the case, why did no one bring that up when Edward was alive? Waiting until he’s dead and gone, and then claiming his marriage of 20yrs wasn’t valid and two sons he recognized as his princes weren’t legible to rule is fishy. Especially since said woman married another AND at this point was deceased herself.

Had Edward “faux married” in order to get a woman into bed, and then wanted to marry Elizabeth he likely would’ve taken care of that (with an annulment, or having the woman swear they were not married) as not to make his sons illegitimate. 

All things being equal, Richard hated the Woodvilles and wanted to be king. He thought he was a better choice than a teenage boy. If Edward IV had died 10yrs later when his sons were grown men this would’ve ended differently. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Scarlett45]

I know theres a lot of holiday stuff on now, but since the Spanish Princess is over, would anyone be up for a rewatch of The White Queen? Or maybe next month?

[ShellsandCheese]

9 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I know theres a lot of holiday stuff on now, but since the Spanish Princess is over, would anyone be up for a rewatch of The White Queen? Or maybe next month?

I'm in! I love Rebecca Ferguson and Janet McTeer. 

[Scarlett45]

11 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I'm in! I love Rebecca Ferguson and Janet McTeer. 

Great. Let’s start in January🥰

[Scarlett45]

I finished episode 1 last night. I love Janet McNeer’s facial expressions. The dialogue is also good. Some of my favorite lines-

When Jacquetta basically tells Duchess Cecily “if your son didn’t invite you to the wedding, take it up with him.”

When Edward tells Elizabeth. “I will not die in battle, but in bed next to the most beautiful Queen England has never known.”

 

[CountryGirl]

I re-watched late last night as well and it reminded me of why it's the best of the Queen/Princess bunch.

Janet McTeer, as noted already, elevates anything she's in, but Rebecca Ferguson brought it as well. I thought she was perfectly cast as Elizabeth Woodville, the commoner (relatively speaking) who won a king's heart.

Ugh to the attempted rape by Edward IV of Elizabeth. I had (almost) forgotten about one. I know they try to hand-wave it away as boy-kings will be boy-kings but no.

I greatly enjoyed the sparring between Elizabeth, Jacquetta, and Cecily and could watch the Real Housewives of Medieval England all day.

Also, I loved when Elizabeth, arranging pieces on a chess set, clapped back at her brother about selling herself too cheaply, saying: "I don't intend to sell myself at all."

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Ugh to the attempted rape by Edward IV of Elizabeth. I had (almost) forgotten about one. I know they try to hand-wave it away as boy-kings will be boy-kings but no.

yeah that was SO GROSS. She clearly said NO, over and over, and then drew his knife on him and then herself! Rather than apologize or a speech about how he thought the lust was mutual, his feelings are butt ass hurt. She did want to lie with him (as she tells her mother later) but she said "NO" plain as day.

5 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Also, I loved when Elizabeth, arranging pieces on a chess set, clapped back at her brother about selling herself too cheaply, saying: "I don't intend to sell myself at all."

Yup!

[Scarlett45]

I am on episode 3, and I have to say I think this series is so good because it’s drawn from several different books, so we get a fully fleshed out world and various women’s perspectives. 
 

I also think Eleanor Tomlinson, who is portraying Isabelle Neville is styled so well here. The dark hair color has her pale skin just glowing, and the jewel tones of her gowns set off her complexion so nicely. We lament on how beautiful Rebecca Ferguson looks in this series but I wanted to give Eleanor her due. 

[CountryGirl]

I have been so swamped lately that I haven't had a chance to rewatch any of the rest of the episodes, sorry, but hoping to watch a few over the upcoming weekend.

[Scarlett45]

34 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I have been so swamped lately that I haven't had a chance to rewatch any of the rest of the episodes, sorry, but hoping to watch a few over the upcoming weekend.

No rush I have had a lot of work too. I havent seen any more since my last post.

[Scarlett45]

Janet McNeer is SO GOOD in this role, the look on her face when she tells Elizabeth to prepare for her death, such calm acceptance but maternal warmth as well. 

[CountryGirl]

She really does elevate the series.

I managed to get through E2 and E3. I felt sorry for poor Isabelle as I think all she really wanted was to be married and have babies. Instead she was a pawn in her Kingmaker father's game.

I forgot how annoying Anne was. 

While completely historically inaccurate, there was some decent chemistry with Margaret Beaufort and BIL Jasper Tudor, which considering Margaret's fanaticism, was quite a feat for both actors to pull off.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, CountryGirl said:

She really does elevate the series.

I managed to get through E2 and E3. I felt sorry for poor Isabelle as I think all she really wanted was to be married and have babies. Instead she was a pawn in her Kingmaker father's game.

I forgot how annoying Anne was. 

While completely historically inaccurate, there was some decent chemistry with Margaret Beaufort and BIL Jasper Tudor, which considering Margaret's fanaticism, was quite a feat for both actors to pull off.

I do think the White Princess also managed to pull off Margaret's desire for Jasper Tudor in that miniseries.

[Scarlett45]

I’m on episode 7, and I’m so fucking sick of George. And of Richard too, blaming Elizabeth for George’s treacherous, treasonous, lying ass.

George CONSISTENTLY went against Edward, he did murder Lord Rivers and his son, they are always covering for his plans to take the throne from Edward and somehow or another it’s ELIZABETH that’s divided them??

I get Cecily Neville not wanting her son to be executed, but George actually did commit treason. Why is everyone acting like Elizabeth just doesn’t like him?? He’s ADMITTED IT. Are they just supposed to let him run wild until he succeeds in killing Edward?

[Scarlett45]

As we near the end I feel a real character shift with Anne. In the early episodes her motivations were clear and she seemed to just desire a life away from plotting. But I think when Edward died as young as he did and the throne felt so close the idea of power corrupted her. She’s like the little devil whispering in Richard’s ear.
 

And now Richard is suffering from “nice guy” syndrome- oh he doesn’t really want to be King, he’s just thinking of what’s best for the realm, and he fears his 12yrs old nephew is going to plot to have him murdered. This “the boys are illegitimate” theory is hogwash so I’m not surprised no one bought it. Elizabeth was acknowledged Queen for 17yrs and then now that Edward is dead (and the woman he “married” first is dead) you want to disrupt the line of succession and say that all of his living children (I think 7 at this point) with Elizabeth aren’t in the line and RICHARD gets the throne. Really now??? Had Edward died 10yrs later no one would’ve even tried that. 
 

Poor Jane Shore- WHY did Edward not provide for her all those years she was his mistress? He didn’t give her a house in her name? Where’s her stash of money? Throwing her out on the street was awful. And then he had her publicly disgraced. 
 

I do feel awfully for Elizabeth when they murdered Richard Grey and Anthony Rivers. She clearly loved her brother quite a bit and she thought she was doing the right thing having her older son care for his younger half brother (which if people hadn’t gone chopping heads off would’ve been a good position for both sons). 

[CountryGirl]

On 2/6/2021 at 9:12 AM, Scarlett45 said:

I’m on episode 7, and I’m so fucking sick of George. And of Richard too, blaming Elizabeth for George’s treacherous, treasonous, lying ass.

George CONSISTENTLY went against Edward, he did murder Lord Rivers and his son, they are always covering for his plans to take the throne from Edward and somehow or another it’s ELIZABETH that’s divided them??

I get Cecily Neville not wanting her son to be executed, but George actually did commit treason. Why is everyone acting like Elizabeth just doesn’t like him?? He’s ADMITTED IT. Are they just supposed to let him run wild until he succeeds in killing Edward?

George was such an ass. It wasn't enough for him to be a duke and his brother's right-hand man. He would have committed treason regardless, I think, no matter whom Edward had married. Elizabeth was just a convenient scapegoat. 

Of course, it's always interesting for me to watch this, especially with MH, as he is a direct descendant of George. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Of course, it's always interesting for me to watch this, especially with MH, as he is a direct descendant of George. 

How's MH?

[CountryGirl]

On 2/8/2021 at 8:06 AM, Scarlett45 said:

As we near the end I feel a real character shift with Anne. In the early episodes her motivations were clear and she seemed to just desire a life away from plotting. But I think when Edward died as young as he did and the throne felt so close the idea of power corrupted her. She’s like the little devil whispering in Richard’s ear.
 

And now Richard is suffering from “nice guy” syndrome- oh he doesn’t really want to be King, he’s just thinking of what’s best for the realm, and he fears his 12yrs old nephew is going to plot to have him murdered. This “the boys are illegitimate” theory is hogwash so I’m not surprised no one bought it. Elizabeth was acknowledged Queen for 17yrs and then now that Edward is dead (and the woman he “married” first is dead) you want to disrupt the line of succession and say that all of his living children (I think 7 at this point) with Elizabeth aren’t in the line and RICHARD gets the throne. Really now??? Had Edward died 10yrs later no one would’ve even tried that. 
 

Poor Jane Shore- WHY did Edward not provide for her all those years she was his mistress? He didn’t give her a house in her name? Where’s her stash of money? Throwing her out on the street was awful. And then he had her publicly disgraced. 
 

I do feel awfully for Elizabeth when they murdered Richard Grey and Anthony Rivers. She clearly loved her brother quite a bit and she thought she was doing the right thing having her older son care for his younger half brother (which if people hadn’t gone chopping heads off would’ve been a good position for both sons). 

I'm about halfway through the rewatch. I agree Anne got caught up in the idea of being queen.

I will always wonder who was behind the demise of the Princes in the Tower. Richard III seems the most likely suspect of having them offed to remove other Yorkist threats. Except why declare them illegitimate before their deaths? And why no action taken against Prince Edward (George and Isabelle's son with a strong claim as well although he was the son of a traitor). It was Henry Tudor who put Teddy to death, along with Pretender Perkin Warbeck, to secure Prince Arthur's betrothal to Katherine of Aragon.

I will always wonder what truly happened, including who killed them and did Elizabeth really switch Richard with another child? My sense is she wouldn't have because of the risk if she was found out. Also, why won't the BRF allow testing of the skeletons found under the stairs in the tower? 

 

[Scarlett45]

11 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I will always wonder who was behind the demise of the Princes in the Tower. Richard III seems the most likely suspect of having them offed to remove other Yorkist threats. Except why declare them illegitimate before their deaths? And why no action taken against Prince Edward (George and Isabelle's son with a strong claim as well although he was the son of a traitor). It was Henry Tudor who put Teddy to death, along with Pretender Perkin Warbeck, to secure Prince Arthur's betrothal to Katherine of Aragon.

I will always wonder what truly happened, including who killed them and did Elizabeth really switch Richard with another child? My sense is she wouldn't have because of the risk if she was found out. Also, why won't the BRF allow testing of the skeletons found under the stairs in the tower? 

I do think it was likely Richard. He had the most to gain with the princes being gone, AND he was the one who put them in the tower in the first place. I think he had them declared illegitimate because he wanted the appearance of doing the legal thing, he didnt quite realize how many people would stand to put Edward IV's son on the throne and the network of people Elizabeth Woodville did have her in corner. Also he likely did have some affection for his nephews and didn't want to kill children of his own blood (and of his brother whom he did have affection for)- but he was prepared to do that if he had to.

 

As to why he didnt place Teddy to death, well if it was to be believed that Teddy had a mental disability and was not likely to be a contender because of that, he was also younger than Prince Richard (who was 9, men may have been willing to fight for a boy on his way to man hood, but a little little child? with childhood mortality being what it was?), AND Teddy was Anne's nephew, HER blood. She likely would've wanted him spared in Isabelle's memory. I also think that Teddy/Margaret were being raised in the country on the charity of their Aunt Anne and were out of sight/out of mind until Henry Tudor was Henry VII and Richard/His son were out of the picture.

Richard really under estimated how popular Edward IV was, and he and Elizabeth were a prolific couple. The woman was no fool, betrothing Elizabeth to Henry Tudor was a smart move to protect her girls under a Tudor rule.

As far as the Prince switching- well a story is a story, but I do think its possible (may not be likely its possible). This was an age before photographs, and a servant boy was socially irrelevant. I could 100% see Elizabeth doing that, and I can see how she could get away with it- the intimate staff knew what Prince Richard look liked, but it wasn't as if the guards sent by Richard III would know besides him being a boy of X age, hair and eye color. Richard III took her son and wouldn't let her see him, was she REALLY going to hand over her other son after her oldest boy (Richard Grey) was imprisoned by this man and on his way to be executed? Also Prince Edward had been living full time in Wales, home for holidays, feasts and events. He would recognize a boy not his brother but would be so in shock at being LOCKED UP would not have given it away. 

There are women in history that have smashed their children's heads in to save them from slavery. Women put their babies in baskets and sent them with strangers to save them from the Holocaust, so I 100% can see a woman switching her son with another person that was socially beneath them and sending him away. I dont think Perkin Warbeck was Richard (it has been pretty much proven he was not), if Richard did live he likely lived out his life in wealthy obscurity in the country. 

[CountryGirl]

20 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

How's MH?

My husband. 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, CountryGirl said:

My husband. 

Oh fun! 

[CountryGirl]

I do think it was likely done under Richard's direction.

I also agree that Elizabeth was very astute in having her eldest daughter marry Henry VII  as she was the beloved daughter of a very popular king.  For protection, but also to help legitimize his own claim by uniting House Lancaster with House York.

[Scarlett45]

I just finished. It was so good!!!!!

“You must be strong. You will marry Henry Tudor, and you will be Queen of England. As I once was.” 
 

The writing was so sharp, as was the acting, I also loved the costume design. I also really enjoyed Rebecca Ferguson in The Red Tent on Lifetime (based on the biblical story about “The rape of Dina”(spelling))- she was great in that as well.

I really felt the heat between Elizabeth Woodville and Edward IV- which historically they did have, a very beautiful couple who were hot for each other. If they can capture that type of chemistry in the Eleanor of Aquitaine series it will be good. The series on Catherine de Medici could be so awesome- a great Catherine of course, and a great Diane de Pointiers could make the series.

I want them to recapture the magic of this one with the next historical fiction mini series. 

[Scarlett45]

I’m currently watching Aneurin Barnard (Richard) as Captain George Bisset in The Scandalous Lady W. 

[CountryGirl]

I'm up to E7 and I am laughing at Margaret Beaufort and the ridiculousness of every time she asks God to give her a sign, whoomp, there it is!

The latest is her being summoned to Elizabeth's chambers during the birth of Richard where she ingratiates herself by saving the babe's life. Although I was hoping they would show her flashing back to when she gave birth to Henry (as they did with The Spanish Princess) and she was tossed in a blanket to help him come (as if her being 13 years old had nothing to do with it). Apparently, that was historically accurate.

David Oakes continues to bring the sleazy charm as George. Of course George isn't long for the world. 

Speaking of chemistry, there was definitely chemistry between Rebecca and Max. But also between Aneurin and Faye and I recall the chemistry between Aneurin and Freya's Lizzie. 

[CountryGirl]

And that's probably "ew" re Richard and Lizzie. But I shipped show them.

Speaking of probably unpopular, but I found George much hotter than Edward. Not quite as hot as Richard but yep.

[CountryGirl]

I’m watching the final episode and my goodness, I loved when Lizzie spat at Margaret (after Margaret tells her that her son will never marry her): 

“Yes, he will. IF he wins. Because that’s the only way he’d have the support of England for his backside on the throne. So whatever happens in this battle, I will be QUEEN...and this will be the very last time that you will ever SIT in my presence.”

[Scarlett45]

On 2/19/2021 at 4:37 PM, CountryGirl said:

I’m watching the final episode and my goodness, I loved when Lizzie spat at Margaret (after Margaret tells her that her son will never marry her): 

“Yes, he will. IF he wins. Because that’s the only way he’d have the support of England for his backside on the throne. So whatever happens in this battle, I will be QUEEN...and this will be the very last time that you will ever SIT in my presence.”

Yes that was so good! I loved that line. 

[Scarlett45]

On 2/19/2021 at 10:18 AM, CountryGirl said:

And that's probably "ew" re Richard and Lizzie. But I shipped show them.

Speaking of probably unpopular, but I found George much hotter than Edward. Not quite as hot as Richard but yep.

 

 

On 2/18/2021 at 4:02 PM, CountryGirl said:

But also between Aneurin and Faye and I recall the chemistry between Aneurin and Freya's Lizzie. 

Thats a good gif but I do not find George hot. He is probably a handsome man out of character (I feel the same way about Richard Rankin as Roger in Outlander, dont think he is good looking on the show, but IRL is is very attractive) but I just see swarm.

Yes I think Aneurin and Faye and great chemistry, but the makeup people did a great job of making Faye look WRETCHED at the end, she looked aged and sick in two hot seconds- it was all makeup (and her acting) but it was a transformation. This film spans about 17yrs, and our biggest clue is the size of the kids (Elizabeth's Grey sons and then her kids with Edward), but the makeup people did what they could, those small time jumps are harder.

[Scarlett45]

Maybe because we just did a rewatch, but I have a had a lot of "life" going on, my god mother (and my Mom's best friend of 50yrs) died March 9th (cancer), the last three weeks of her life were tumultuous for us (my Mom was her medical POA)- and I find myself thinking of Janet McTeer's line as Jaquetta tells Elizabeth, "You will not have me long." and then when Elizabeth says in the next episode "I do not know what I will do without my mother with me." I keep thinking of those lines. I still have my mother, but those lines are kicking me in the gut.

[CountryGirl]

I’m so sorry for your family’s loss. 

[Scarlett45]

I thought you guys would appreciate a Man Crush Monday of our own Aneurin Barnard (Richard). 

[CountryGirl]

@Scarlett45 - 

[CeeBeeGee]

On 9/15/2014 at 1:31 PM, DoughGirl said:

One thing about Sharon Penman is that she does her research and sticks as closely to known facts as possible while still having her point of view. You won't find Richard III and Elisabeth of York "getting together" here. Sunne in Splendour is a truly excellent book, in itself, and for learning about these characters. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

TSIS is a very readable and interesting book, I will give her that even if I detest her contortions to let Richard off the hook. He killed those boys. Most historians agree so, everyone was saying so at the time (post-summer 1483) and if they weren't dead, all he had to do was produce them. And if someone else was able to sneak into the Tower and kill them (extremely unlikely), then he's an idiot and still responsible for their deaths. I truly can't stand the anyone-but-Richard types. He went well out of his way to try to "legally" usurp the throne (calling his mother a whore, calling the children illegitimate) and they were still a threat so he had them killed. 

Aside from that, I quite liked this series, although I thought the writing was better in the first half. The second half seemed to need everyone to go stupid for the plot to work. Isabelle and Anne especially annoyed me.

The actor who played George played a very similar character (talentless lout who confuses privilege with ability) in The Borgias, Juan Borgia.