S06.E10: Marathon

[ottoDbusdriver]

17 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I don't quite understand why there would even be a headline saying "Crisis Averted." Was everyone aware that there was some kind of multiversal crisis in the first place? Do they all remember this big wave hit and then apparently they were perfectly fine afterwards (because they wouldn't realize that the world had changed)? How would that be newsworthy?

"Oh, you remember that big red wave that just came and went and apparently didn't do anything? This article says it was some big end of the world event that got stopped by the Flash."

"Whew! Guess we dodged that bullet. Could you pass me the sports section?"

I was confused by this too -- this is a totally new universe where the Crisis never happened.
It is a completely new timeline with all the heroes contained on Earth Prime -- and as far as the rest of the world is concerned always have been-- with only a select number of individuals with restored memories of the old timeline.

The writers have made such an incredible clusterfuck of the post-Crisis crossover Arrrowverse.

[scarynikki12]

28 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I don't quite understand why there would even be a headline saying "Crisis Averted." Was everyone aware that there was some kind of multiversal crisis in the first place? Do they all remember this big wave hit and then apparently they were perfectly fine afterwards (because they wouldn't realize that the world had changed)? How would that be newsworthy?

 

6 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I was confused by this too -- this is a totally new universe where the Crisis never happened.
It is a completely new timeline with all the heroes contained on Earth Prime -- and as far as the rest of the world is concerned always have been-- with only a select number of individuals with restored memories of the old timeline.

My working theory has been that the general population remembers a version of Crisis that saw the multiverse get wiped out while Earth Prime was saved. They don't know the multiverse was restored and think that Earth Prime is the only one left. That would explain the post-crossover doppelgangers and let the pre-Crisis multiverse stories to remain in tact. Cisco has that message from Harry because there was once another Earth that was home to Harry, Jesse, Zoom, etc., but it was destroyed in the Crisis that that everyone remembers. The general population just doesn't know the real story while the regulars on the Arrowverse shows do now that they've been given memories of the previous timeline as well as the new one. I don't know if they'll ever truly explain it but that's what I've got to make it all make sense.

[legaleagle53]

8 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

 

My working theory has been that the general population remembers a version of Crisis that saw the multiverse get wiped out while Earth Prime was saved. They don't know the multiverse was restored and think that Earth Prime is the only one left. That would explain the post-crossover doppelgangers and let the pre-Crisis multiverse stories to remain in tact. Cisco has that message from Harry because there was once another Earth that was home to Harry, Jesse, Zoom, etc., but it was destroyed in the Crisis that that everyone remembers. The general population just doesn't know the real story while the regulars on the Arrowverse shows do now that they've been given memories of the previous timeline as well as the new one. I don't know if they'll ever truly explain it but that's what I've got to make it all make sense.

And don't forget that the President also informed everyone of the Crisis when she paid tribute to Oliver's sacrifice that restarted the Multiverse. So everyone does understand that there was a Crisis; they just don't know all the little details yet unless their memories were restored either by J'Onn or by Cisco's device.

[Trini]

50 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I don't quite understand why there would even be a headline saying "Crisis Averted." Was everyone aware that there was some kind of multiversal crisis in the first place? Do they all remember this big wave hit and then apparently they were perfectly fine afterwards (because they wouldn't realize that the world had changed)? How would that be newsworthy?

There also the fight with the Anti Monitor at the end of the crossover, too. With president making a whole televised address about it, there must be some public knowledge of Crisis.

[Ha! jinx!]

Edited February 6, 2020 by Trini

[adora721]

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why isn`t Nash a, pardon the pun, pariah to the team?

Once you treat murder and attempted murders as no big deal, forgiving the guy who freed the Anti-Monitor so he could destroy the multiverse is not far fetched. There's no crime too big for Team Flash to sweep under the rug.

[adora721]

Cisco's story continues to baffle. He gave up his powers to live a normal life, but he remains on the team that's at the forefront of fighting meta-humans, which continues to put him in danger.

He lets go of Cynthia, even solves her murder, and is now in love. Now, he leaves Kamilla for who knows how long to go catalog new meta-human threats around the city, the country, the globe? How is any of that normal? 

I honestly thought Cisco would start Ramon Industries like he did in Flashpoint and just loan out technology to STAR Labs, but not be in STAR Labs. That would be a normal life as a tech titan, not just an engineer still in the midst of dangerous activities without powers to protect anyone.

None of his reasoning or behavior makes sense.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, adora721 said:

 

Who stopped crisis? Oliver, Barry, Lex, Kara, J'onn, Sara, Kate, and Ryan. Since the Flash is CC's hero and Oliver has already been lionized nationally by the US president, it makes sense to give CC's hero credit in the headline since that's who the city knows and loves.

 

See I'd hope facts would be higher on Iris's list of priorities than fluffing up the City's favorite hero.  By Iris giving the Flash the sole credit in stopping Crisis, it's misleading at best and just wrong at worst.  I get why it happened, to mirror the original headline but it didn't work.  Didn't make sense from the people's pov and wasn't right from the standpoint of the facts.  And from what I could read in the article, she only mentioned sightings of the other heroes in the opening paragraphs, not co credit.  

It's just such freaking lazy writing.  We are not idiots.  Do better by us Flash writers.  

13 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

 

I actually enjoyed the scenes with Diggle and Barry. I admit I don't know what/how this show "did Diggle dirty." 

 

For me they wrote him as if he didn't really know Oliver by claiming he wasn't the sentimental type so that was very disappointing coming from a brother and then to make it worse, we know from the Arrow finale according to Diggle Felicity barely had gotten out of bed since Oliver died. They weren't sure she'd even make it to his funeral, so Dig making a joke about her cheaping out on care and cleaning of Oliver's mask, something that had a lot of meaning to them both, came off as a distasteful and really out of character for Diggle. 

It was poor timing.  The Flash episode took place a week before the Arrow finale.  Maybe if they had Dig pop in later after there was more time and distance from Oliver's death and funeral it wouldn't have been so jolting.  

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

 

My working theory has been that the general population remembers a version of Crisis that saw the multiverse get wiped out while Earth Prime was saved. They don't know the multiverse was restored and think that Earth Prime is the only one left. That would explain the post-crossover doppelgangers and let the pre-Crisis multiverse stories to remain in tact. Cisco has that message from Harry because there was once another Earth that was home to Harry, Jesse, Zoom, etc., but it was destroyed in the Crisis that that everyone remembers. The general population just doesn't know the real story while the regulars on the Arrowverse shows do now that they've been given memories of the previous timeline as well as the new one. I don't know if they'll ever truly explain it but that's what I've got to make it all make sense.

Except we know that characters from other earths until they had their memories restored had no memory of not being on the same earth with the rest of the Arrowverse, so we know that for most people on the planet, this is the way it's always been so they would have no memory of what was lost.  

Honestly, I'm pretty sure every show is going to come up with it's own rules and we the ones watching more than one show are the only ones trying to make it all make sense.  Again show writers, do better!   

[Trini]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

See I'd hope facts would be higher on Iris's list of priorities than fluffing up the City's favorite hero.  By Iris giving the Flash the sole credit in stopping Crisis, it's misleading at best and just wrong at worst. ...

All the heroes are given credit for credit for defeating the Anti Monitor in the article. The Flash was a part of it, so it's still correct. It's just a headline.

---

But speaking of that scene; what 'friend' do we think Iris was talking to on the phone? I'm guessing it's someone from one of the other shows, but they didn't know who they'd be able to get to cross over, so no name for now. I'm hoping it's Kara or Lois Lane, but Linda Park would be awesome too. Since They were talking about Iris' article, It might be someone who is also in journalism.

[Trini]

Forgot to mention the new opening sequence; it was nice, but is it going to be there every episode from now on? The only nitpick I have is that they used a shot of the Season 5 Flash suit with that terrible cowl - they should just forget that ever happened.

So with Cisco specifically saying that old villains are around with new faces and powers*, it looks like Wallace is looking to make his own mark on the show and on certain characters, and using the universe merge as a way to not have to follow continuity.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. It does open up lots of possibilities, although for now it seems he's only using it to bring new or updated villains and/or metahumans. But then some of the "old" stuff was good, so I don't want everything rebooted.

*And yeah, it's dumb that he's freaked out about not knowing about the "new" metahumans/villains/etc. because he should still have his other set of memories -- but someone had to do the exposition, I guess.

[Primal Slayer]

36 minutes ago, Trini said:

Forgot to mention the new opening sequence; it was nice, but is it going to be there every episode from now on? The only nitpick I have is that they used a shot of the Season 5 Flash suit with that terrible cowl - they should just forget that ever happened.

So with Cisco specifically saying that old villains are around with new faces and powers*, it looks like Wallace is looking to make his own mark on the show and on certain characters, and using the universe merge as a way to not have to follow continuity.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. It does open up lots of possibilities, although for now it seems he's only using it to bring new or updated villains and/or metahumans. But then some of the "old" stuff was good, so I don't want everything rebooted.

*And yeah, it's dumb that he's freaked out about not knowing about the "new" metahumans/villains/etc. because he should still have his other set of memories -- but someone had to do the exposition, I guess.

I think its a smart way to do some recasting/re-workings of villains that need a reboot or cant secure the OG actors. Something Arrow should've done with Huntress instead of magically not being able to secure the actress for 7 years straight (who hasnt been in a series since 2017)

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

See I'd hope facts would be higher on Iris's list of priorities than fluffing up the City's favorite hero.  By Iris giving the Flash the sole credit in stopping Crisis, it's misleading at best and just wrong at worst.  I get why it happened, to mirror the original headline but it didn't work.  Didn't make sense from the people's pov and wasn't right from the standpoint of the facts.  And from what I could read in the article, she only mentioned sightings of the other heroes in the opening paragraphs, not co credit.  

It's just such freaking lazy writing.  We are not idiots.  Do better by us Flash writers.  

For me they wrote him as if he didn't really know Oliver by claiming he wasn't the sentimental type so that was very disappointing coming from a brother and then to make it worse, we know from the Arrow finale according to Diggle Felicity barely had gotten out of bed since Oliver died. They weren't sure she'd even make it to his funeral, so Dig making a joke about her cheaping out on care and cleaning of Oliver's mask, something that had a lot of meaning to them both, came off as a distasteful and really out of character for Diggle. 

It was poor timing.  The Flash episode took place a week before the Arrow finale.  Maybe if they had Dig pop in later after there was more time and distance from Oliver's death and funeral it wouldn't have been so jolting.  

Thank you! You beat me to it. I was just about to write something similar. Yeah, Flash is Central City's hero, but Iris is a journalist. She's writing an article for a paper that is supposed to be objective; not an opinion piece that can also be a fluff piece or a blog. It should just have the facts of what happened; or what she was able to find out what happened. It's very sloppy and lazy. This wasn't an article on Flash Appreciation Day* but an article about whatever happened after Crisis, which I still don't understand how anyone who isn't a Paragon, and whose memories weren't zapped to have two sets of memories, would know.

*JLU: "Flash and Substance" one of THE funniest episodes, and which revealed that Wally's Flash wasn't all..."Flash"

Okay, now I get it and I agree. They also did Felicity dirty.  I don't understand why they can't stop being lazy and write these characters, well, in character!

6 hours ago, Trini said:

All the heroes are given credit for credit for defeating the Anti Monitor in the article. The Flash was a part of it, so it's still correct. It's just a headline.

---

 

It doesn't matter that it's just a headline. It's misleading. And really, ultimately, it was Oliver (because that's how they wrote it) who saved them all, by sacrificing himself, multiple times. Yes, all the other heroes also helped to defeat him, but Oliver was the one who fought with him and died while doing it, which created all those new Earths. But my point is that Iris isn't writing for a rag or tabloid, where you can get away with misleading headlines or articles.

[adora721]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes, all the other heroes also helped to defeat him, but Oliver was the one who fought with him and died while doing it, which created all those new Earths.

Barry said in the recap voiceover of this episode that, "we helped Oliver reboot the universe". Restarting the universe or multiverse was not a one man operation. Oliver even told the Paragons, "I'll light the spark, you [Paragons] fan the flame." If you've ever gone camping or watched any outdoor/primitive survival show, you know that getting a spark or ember does not guarantee a flame will result. You have to fan that spark/ember. He needed them, and they needed him. Oliver did not restart the universe all on his own; that's a fact. They're giving him so much credit because he's the one who died, but this was a group effort to defeat the Anti-Monitor and restart the multiverse.

Considering that crisis was a Flash comic event, I'm not upset that Iris gave him the headline credit.

Edited February 6, 2020 by adora721

[UNOSEZ]

36 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Barry said in the recap voiceover of this episode that, "we helped Oliver reboot the universe". Restarting the universe or multiverse was not a one man operation. Oliver even told the Paragons, "I'll light the spark, you [Paragons] fan the flame." If you've ever gone camping or watched any outdoor/primitive survival show, you know that getting a spark or ember does not guarantee a flame will result. You have to fan that spark/ember. He needed them, and they needed him. Oliver did not restart the universe all on his own; that's a fact. They're giving him so much credit because he's the one who died, but this was a group effort to defeat the Anti-Monitor and restart the multiverse.

Considering that crisis was a Flash comic event, I'm not upset that Iris gave him the headline credit.

Agreed Oliver has gotten a bunch if bandwith as a hero of crisis.. The president name dropped him personally we've seen legends and the flash deal with his loss.. But there were other ppl there and without them this doesn't happen.. And if were being stickers the dude who helped take down the anti-monitor and start the multiversal regent.. Was Spectre in an Oliver suit.. Or half Oliver half Spectre... And if we wanna lay more at his feet because he died... Well so did Mar Novu... Where's his statue?  Or mag cover?... The legends are stars.. Flash and Kara are household names... I imagine everyone knows supes... Batwoman is gracing mag covers as well... Lex is a GD world Hero... Ryan choi???  Martian manhunter??  Black Lightning???  Funny that don't remember their parades

[statsgirl]

12 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I think its a smart way to do some recasting/re-workings of villains that need a reboot or cant secure the OG actors. Something Arrow should've done with Huntress instead of magically not being able to secure the actress for 7 years straight (who hasnt been in a series since 2017)

Just a point of information: Jessica de Gouw is busy in a number of things, from The Hunting to The Crown. I'm currently liking her in Vienna Blood.

I agree about rebooting some of the villains but they also need to keep introducing new ones.

 

[Trini]

On 2/5/2020 at 10:01 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

And here's my final thought--and let me preface it by saying I think Candice is a beautiful woman, with or without make-up. So, when she passed the mirror and recalled what her source had said about the mirror---she didn't have make-up on, and her hair was all bundled up, and she was in sweats. But what does she do when she realizes she needs to head back to McCulloch's? After writing that note to Barry? She apparently had time to fix her hair and put on make-up, change clothes to head there.

Maybe you* could say that she had to dress like she belonged there, in case she got caught? It was a significant change, but I didn't mind.

Shout out to the wardrobe department for making sure Iris/Candice looked fabulous through this episode!

*(general 'you')

[scarynikki12]

Posts have been removed for continuing the Flash vs Arrow fight. Scrolling past or using the Ignore feature are better options than fighting with each other and disrupting the thread.

[phoenics]

On 2/4/2020 at 10:58 PM, Twilight Man said:

I've been debating that for days now how some heroes who were not Paragons, like Black Lightning and Arrow-Verse Superman, are acting like they remember the worlds before they merged (OMG!!  Superman exists........... is something I should NOT be saying on my show after the merge.)  ("Wait, I have HOW MANY kids, Lois??")

Oh well, just remember folks.  Comic books (and the Hollywood shows and movies that are created) are just meant to be "dumb fun", and, much like the ancient mythological stories, are not truly meant to be taken COMPLETELY serious.

I thought JJ went around and restored memories of everyone after Crisis was over?

[phoenics]

I finally caught up with the show.  I debated on whether I would be back at all - pre-Crisis was handled so badly that I really almost quit.  Especially since I moved and cut the cord.  Even if I keep watching, it's gonna be next day viewing because the CW isn't available to livestream in my area from what I can tell.

Anyway, I watched and really enjoyed the episode.  Iris and Team Citizen REALLY investigating (interviewing people, chasing leads, etc) and working on stories that tie directly into the main plot - FINALLY!  I feel like this should have been happening a LONG time ago and I cannot fathom why the writers couldn't get it right.  Even with the cop format the show had before, working a reporter angle into that should have been simple but the show just refused to do it.  

Now all this show has to do imo is put Barry back at CCPD with Joe and run the reporter arc with the police/CSI arc that they already had.  Pull in Star Labs when necessary - but that shouldn't be the center of things - make us feel like Barry, Iris, Joe, Cisco, et al have real lives.  No way they'd just be living in Star Labs all the time.

I legit gasped when Iris got snatched into the mirror.  Okay, actually I screamed in my hotel room (sorry whoever was on the other side!).  That got me, lol.  Whew.

This Black Mirror storyline and the villains feel REALLY good right now and formidable.  Bloodwork was such a waste, tbh.  The only good part with BW was the temptation bit with Barry (which was also irritating because we never saw Iris have a pov about Crisis).

Lastly - of course I agree with others about Wallace gaslighting fans by having Iris talk about how she lived life to the fullest in her final days with Barry (when we know no such thing happened).  I don't give a flying F what Wallace has Iris say when we KNOW it didn't happen.  I'm still pissed off at it and that part of the episode with him forcing CP to say those lies was the only part that reeked and stunk.  He'd have been better off without it.

But other than that steaming turd, I loved the episode.

Oh - one more thing - I hope Flash comes back front and center next episode.  I loved seeing Iris lead - but that can happen with Flash in his rightful place too.  This episode felt like this show could easily have more of a "Lois & Clark" vibe if it really wanted to - I hope the show leans into that more.  I'm not saying the others on the show shouldn't have their due at times - but given the first 9 episodes, The Flash owes us a TON of Flash-Iris-Barry content.

Periodt.

ETA to add one more thing:  Even in death Oliver is blocking Westallen kisses, lol.  The chaste way this show treats Iris and Barry is a disservice to all of us.  We can't even get real kisses anymore without a fadeout.  It's ridiculous.  The network appears to be driven by fear - but even Disney shows and movies have better kisses.

Edited February 8, 2020 by phoenics

[RedVitC]

Not all, but some thoughts 🙂

I enjoyed the episode.

-Lots of great Iris content. What I especially like is that it seems to be setting up a bigger story for her. I tend to love other world type stories so I'm very interested in what the mirrorverse will look like. Will it be like central city, but with things different/not how they are, or will it be more of an abstract place.

-I did think they went very fast with the story of not only finding out that Joseph Carver is behind Blackhole (or is there someone who is his boss?), but also confronting him with that knowledge and there already being a standoff of sorts. The bad guys already know that she knows, so even with the information releasing switch, wouldn't they try to come after them somehow?

-Like others I'm not sure why they're acting like Cisco and the others (everyone but Barry) wouldn't also remember the new timeline even if their memories were restored. Thinking about the backdoor pilot on Arrow

Spoiler

Even after Mia got her memories back of the old timeline, the new timeline was still just as real to her as the old one. She had lived those moments too. 

- A nice Barry and Iris moment to (almost) end the episode. I think this episode did a nice job in weaving their two plots. While they were mostly separate, you saw them together at the beginning as those journeys got started and then they got to talk about their journeys as the end. And the plot with Cisco dealing with the new world also nicely intersected with the A plot. Still hoping for some scenes of them really talking to each other, though. Them helping each other with the issues they face.

-I don't need Nora to be namedropped every episode or anything, but I feel over the last couple of episodes (and even before) there are a lot of instances where her name/existence would/should naturally come up but it just doesn't 

- Even though I immediately had my suspicions that Barry needed there to be something to do because he felt so helpless and sad, part of me, like Barry, was hoping that Oliver actually had left behind a message. Not for a mission but some kind of letter or hologram or something from Oliver. I guess I just wanted to hear from Oliver. But I understand why they didn't do that, it would open up too many questions. 

-Team citizen is really starting to click. They're starting to have their own  dynamics among each other like the way Kamilla and Allegra were sort of teasing each other about their lunch orders, and asking whether Allegra was even 21. I like it

- I don't understand blaming Nash for crisis. He didn't open that cave till episode 8, but the antimatter was already making its way through they universes since at least episode 2 where Jay showed Barry that he was tracking it. And on Arrow

Spoiler

(earth 2 got destroyed)

 

[Trini]

BTW, Eric Wallace had said that some characters from the Ralph/Barry James Bond parody episode (6.06) would show up again; and the first guy that Dr. Light vaporized (with the eyepatch) in this episode was also at the gala event in 6.06. Also the barista that Chester had a crush on was also in the opening scene at Jitters.