S12.E02: Spyfall (2)

[darkestboy]

I loved that episode and again, it's because of Sacha Dhawan. Not only is he a brilliant Master but he's making Jodie Whittaker up her game and the intimate history between the Doctor and the Master is always interesting for me to watch and these versions of the characters are no exceptions to that rule.

Of course the Master would underestimate his alliance with the Kasaavin and Daniel conveniently disappeared when things went to shit but hopefully it won't be long before the Master resurfaces again.

The Master destroying Gallifrey over the Timeless Child reveal works for me. It doesn't invalidate anything RTD or Moffat did and hopefully it'll pay off as an arc. It's long past time for this Doctor to be taken out of her comfort zone.

It's slightly worrying though the Doctor has better chemistry with guest characters like Ada Lovelace and Noor Inayat Khan (both of whom were used well) than she does her own companions.

Her own companions even work better among themselves than with the Doctor as well. On the other hand, at least they're finally asking questions about the Doctor, which is what they should've been doing since last series, 9/10

[Wulfsige]

I liked this episode (and last week's) a lot. I want to re-watch it, something I haven't had any urge to do since the days of Eleven and Amy and Rory. I try not to think too hard about plot holes and all the timey-wimey stuff because I inevitably end by gritting my teeth over it, but the theatrics and drama swept me up this time, and the two historical women fit in well.   

Sacha Dhawan was awesome pulling off the manic bug-eyed batshit crazy, and managing to be charismatically appealing and scary terrifying at the same time. I haven't seen Classic Who but the NuWho versions of the Master came across as posturing and annoyingly yappy when they were on screen for any length of time. 

I'm not completely sold on the whole pack of companions. They might have worked better if they'd been added to the show one at a time and more organically. Ryan gives the impression he doesn't really want to be there, rather in the way one doesn't want to go bowling but the rest of the group is going so one tags along. I think Yaz wants to be there, but is worried about her job and family, and not really into the adventure aspect, or so it feels. Graham seems to be enjoying himself, I suppose because since his wife died he's a bit fatalistic, but in any case he's more credible as to his being there. 

[PaulBMA]

As mentioned in this thread, Khan was a massive bungler as an SOE agent, but in order that she be a feminist and Muslim role model. that's often left out by modern activists. Just as the reality that most white American abolitionists didn't want black people to be slaves but they also didn't think black people should be equal is left out.

[DanaK]

@Wulfsige I’m finding Part 2 to be hugely rewatchable, even in full, and the in full part is not something I say about most episodes. There are so many great scenes here, especially between Doctor and Master, but also with Doctor and Ada and other stuff

Please read one of my recent posts in the Series 12 Spoiler topic where an article talks about Jodie talking at the Q&A about Chibnall planning things out and that the Timeless Child arc will take time to spool out

This episode got an Appreciation Index (AI) score of 82, same as Part 1

Edited January 7, 2020 by DanaK

[tennisgurl]

This season seems to be off to a great start, I am very intrigued by this season so far! And I think we all learned a very valuable lesson today: Dont give out your credit card information all willy nilly, or else an evil tech guru and aliens from an alternate dimension will re-write your DNA to turn you into code! The more you know!

I wasnt totally sure after last week, but Sacha Dhawan really sold me as The Master this week, he did a great job walking between manic energy and a more quiet kind of threatening energy, while even giving a very solemn gravitas to the last scene where he told the Doctor what he did to Gallifrey. 

New Who really wants to keep other Time Lords the hell away from the show, doesent it?! Gallifrey is always destroyed or lost or in a pocket dimension or in a painting or whatever, and now its been destroyed again! I mean, I haven't been thrilled by what the last few seasons have done with Gallifry, but it is rather frustrating that after all the Doctor did to save it, the freaking planet just got wrecked all over again! On the other hand, the whole timeless child thing sounds really intriguing, and it totally tracks that the Time Lord big wigs have some serious skeletons in their closets, so that all has a lot of potential. Plus, as much as I love 13s happy go lucky personality, I think its time for her to get a real challenge. 

Seeing the historical characters, most predominantly Ada Lovelace and Noor Inayat Khan, was a ton of fun and they were both used really well, even if I wish we didnt have to do the mind wipe. It also makes me sad that we haven't gotten a companion from the past in ages, that would be a ton of fun, and create an interesting dynamic. Or someone from the future, or an alien, or anyone who isnt a modern day British person! 

The subplot with Ryan, Yaz, and Graham was quite a bit of fun, with Graham and his laser shoes, Yaz telling Ryan not to tell the bad guys the plan, and I especially loved the last scene where the Doctor actually told them some real information about herself and how she stole a Tardis and ran away. 

I mean, obviously this is Paris Doctor! Look at her beret!  

[DanaK]

On 1/6/2020 at 1:59 AM, AnimeMania said:

Just didn't like this episode. Using the TARDIS to go back in time and get your companions out of a sticky situation. Graham shooting his laser shoes at a crowd of people that included the other companions. Ada using a machine gun in a crowed room, she manages to hit her target and then stops firing? Wanting to use all the people on earth as data storage when a jar full of bacteria would give you the same results. Why did the aliens want to do this and why did they say this would effect The Universe, it would barely effect the Earth, the Earth would probably be better off. How would they prevent the data from being corrupted, would all the humans be in some kind of suspended animation where their bodies never change? Why did the aliens give up their plans? Are there thousands of aliens living in the brains of humans? Are the aliens still here or did they leave? Who's brain is The Master in? Where is the Master's TARDIS? Why did they show swastikas, will they have to remove them to show this episode in Germany? Has The Doctor always been able to touch people and make them forget they met. This sounds like as useful a gimmick as psychic paper, why haven't they used it more?

Ok, so the part about the Kasaavins using the humans as receptacles - based on rewatching and reading another board that hashed this out, the following seems to be the best read I have on it: The K aliens’s initial plan was to influence computer/techie types throughout history to eventually influence humans to build them a machine to help the K come into our world and take over. Slow and steady, emphasis on slow. The Master finds out about it and raises their ambitions and fast forwards things. He builds the Lady sculpture device and sends it back to Babbage (I’m not sure if to influence Ada or what), then Lenny Henry’s Barton character eventually gets hold of it so the K aliens can use it to infuse it with their energy to allow them to wipe out the humans’ DNA all at once and inhabit them and allow some like Barton to remain in charge. That said, that’s what Barton and the Ks think is the final plan. But the Master apparently was planning to use the plan to murder all the humans and then get rid of Barton and the K aliens, so it’s possible what Barton and the Ks were thinking they were aiming for with the Master’s help wasn’t really workable in full. As for the Ks, the Doctor planted a virus in the Lady device to shut it down, then said she was using the device to exile them back to their dimension

As for taking over the Universe, it’s possible that K prisoner was lying and making themselves to seem more scary as they seemed focused on Earth 

I thought initially Noor was involved in the initial plan, but the Doctor figured they were just there by accident after Ada grabbed her hand when she was trying to get back to the present

[benteen]

Great episode!  Even better than last week's episode, which I really enjoyed.  If this is what we can expect from Season 12, that bodes extremely well.

The plot was definitely reminiscent of the RTD run.

Sacha Dhawan was tremendous as The Master and I agree his presence has made Jodie up her game as well.  The two of them work great off of each other.  The last scene was an excellent showcase for both of them.  Loved getting the 4th Doctor reference as well.

I wasn't a fan of bringing Gallifrey back during the 50th anniversary because I thought it ruined a great storyline.  But I looked forward to its return and not a surprise, Moffat completely botched it.  So I'm okay with this.  I'm looking forward to the deep, dark secret of the Time Lords though and also wonder if it's related to Cartmel's Master Plan from the 7th Doctor days.

The companions had a good episode and were fun.  Graham is definitely the MVP of that group.  

Thought Lenny Henry was a good villain as well as Barton.

Appreciated all the time jumping.  Ada reminded me of Victorian Clara.  Victorian Clara would have been interesting there.

Great start!

[Eulipian 5k]

When the Master appeared among the Nazeez I thought "Hmmm, one of these is not like the others". So I was glad the Doctor made mention of the Master using a perception filter. (It acknowledged that the actor was a POC, unlike Mels in Nazee Germany). The Doctor's NOT human so his/her moral compass will never fully align with the earth's "magnetic" poles!

[DanaK]

Regarding the Doctor not telling the companions much about herself in Series 11, it's clear now Chibnall planned it that way, to start fresh to bring in new viewers, then to add layers over subsequent seasons (which also included not bringing back known monsters/aliens in that first season). In-show, I figured that with all the angst and trauma from previous Doctors (in New Who at least), 13 wanted a fresh start and just wanted to go on adventures and just have fun. She didn't want to explain things to her new friends because it would bring up all the pain and history she wanted to avoid. I enjoyed the jauntyness of her character, but it certainly adds more layers to her now that she's hiding even more pain and trying to keep up a front

[Gummo]

It was loud, noisy, rollicking fun and I had a great time watching it.

That may not sound like much, but I wasn't able to say it for most of the dour Moffat/Capaldi run.

Yay, Dr. Who is BACK!

[HauntedBathroom]

4 hours ago, DanaK said:

Regarding the Doctor not telling the companions much about herself in Series 11, it's clear now Chibnall planned it that way, to start fresh to bring in new viewers, then to add layers over subsequent seasons (which also included not bringing back known monsters/aliens in that first season).

That's not at all the take I had on it. I had the feeling that Chibnall was faithfully copying the Hartnell era in so many ways that it didn't occur to him to give the companions the data that every other companion of the new series has.

When he saw the many complaints this omission generated, he did a quick and sloppy patch, in the same way that he quickly added some unfunny humour and some belated 'companions talking to each other' dialogue.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know, I liked the companions being on their own and scared, but trying to brave it out. I don't really mind if it was added on when, just the final product on the screen.

I'm liking the little history lesson of the Doctor. Though I don't know why in 1834 she didn't try to steal the Master's TARDIS. 

[DoctorAtomic]

When have the Doctor and the Master been able to communicate telepathically? Or were they talking in morse code and it was a shortcut to not have us sit there through incessant beeping?

I like how the Doctor was 'doctoring' in the Master's TARDIS and the ladies were both amused and confused at the same time.

Edited January 12, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

When have the Doctor and the Master been able to communicate telepathically? Or were they talking in morse code and it was a shortcut to not have us sit there through incessant beeping?

I like how the Doctor was 'doctoring' in the Master's TARDIS and the ladies were both amused and confused at the same time.

Time Lords have telepathic ability, especially with each other. The talking was probably a shortcut to them just talking with their minds. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by DanaK

[DoctorAtomic]

I wasn't calling BS, I just didn't remember that.

I do like when the Doctor gets all 'this planet is off limits.'

I'm fine with a Gallifrey mystery. What the NuWho has done with the Master/Doctor is that they're still adversaries, but there's moments of connection.

I do like the push by the fam to want to learn more about the Doctor. It fits into this context of the soft reboot.

Edited January 13, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[AudienceofOne]

On 1/6/2020 at 1:38 PM, Eolivet said:

Is it my imagination or is this iteration of Doctor Who ... talkier than normal?

Nothing in the entire universe is 'talkier' than Moffat's Doctor Who. So I'm going with 'not for me, no'. 

 Sacha Dhawan is an amazing Master. I didn't get it at first because at the end of Part 1 he was just chewing scenery but once he started layering it was amazing. I'm kind of disappointed he's benched for now because I enjoyed him on screen so much. And he and Jodie have a perfect chemistry.

I liked this episode a lot more than the first half (lazer shoes notwithstanding) as the spy stuff didn't do it for me.

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

When have the Doctor and the Master been able to communicate telepathically?

Always? It's why Timelords can always recognise each other and know where each other are at all times - except when the plot demands that they don't. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I think the Doctor was talkier because she was finally putting pieces together and doctoring around. They've all tend to run their mouths when they get excited. 

[DanaK]

Final consolidated numbers for Part 2 were 6.07 million with an Appreciation Index of 82. It was 16th for the week ending Jan 5 (which also included Part 1)

[Eulipian 5k]

Is this the first, and only. time this Doctor has called herself a "Time Lord"?

Only Rose and Clara ever saw the Doctor regenerate, so why should she talk about it to anyone who hasn't? It always seems like a traumatic experience, (and lately, traumatic for the TARDIS!). At first Nine seemed embarrassed and apologetic talking to Rose about it.

So, Gallifrey has been dead and re-born more times than Rory? -  "Noooh, it can't be"

[DanaK]

5 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Is this the first, and only. time this Doctor has called herself a "Time Lord"?

Apparently so. Chibnall indicated in an interview that she hadn't said it before in Series 11, so we would hear her say it in Series 12

Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean much at this time to the team, but Graham did say he still had loads of questions. It was a short and curt autobiography and the Doctor wasn't really up to offering more information at that point given she was still hurting over Gallifrey

[kieyra]

On 1/13/2020 at 11:21 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

I think the Doctor was talkier because she was finally putting pieces together and doctoring around. They've all tend to run their mouths when they get excited. 

This whole sub thread is hilarious because various studies have shown that women are perceived as “talking more” or too much, even when they are talking less than their male counterparts. The biased perception happens with listeners of both genders. (i.e., women also perceive other women as talking too much, even if they are talking less than a man in the same convo.)

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/applied-psycholinguistics/article/speaker-sex-and-perceived-apportionment-of-talk/16666BA97B7BE41FFB16A5693BF60C23#

If anything I thought Jodie was nailing the Doctor’s intrinsic habit of self chatter. 

[AudienceofOne]

2 hours ago, kieyra said:

This whole sub thread is hilarious because various studies have shown that women are perceived as “talking more” or too much, even when they are talking less than their male counterparts. The biased perception happens with listeners of both genders. (i.e., women also perceive other women as talking too much, even if they are talking less than a man in the same convo.)

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/applied-psycholinguistics/article/speaker-sex-and-perceived-apportionment-of-talk/16666BA97B7BE41FFB16A5693BF60C23#

If anything I thought Jodie was nailing the Doctor’s intrinsic habit of self chatter. 

I was going to try to avoid 'going there', mostly because this episode really was as woefully written as people say it was (but nowhere near as bad as some Moffatt-era episodes in that it had a coherent theme and we knew what was happening at any particular point).

But I thought that too. Moffatt's Doctors in particular never shut the f**k up. If anything, this Doctor talks less. 

[Llywela]

The Doctor has been conceived as fast-talking and slightly manic ever since Tennant, it is a very consistent New Who conception of the character. They've each had their own twist on that same basic quirk, though. I think Whittaker's Doctor is more inclined to narrate as she goes along than her predecessors - she thinks out loud more openly, second-guessing herself as she goes, which is also why she comes across as more uncertain. Tennant, for instance, would just make something up and run with it, we didn't get all the inner workings of his mind as he skimmed through different options beforehand (or at least not as often or as much). I admit I do find the constant 'maybe this' and 'presumably that' a bit annoying, but I've come to accept it as a quirk of this particular Doctor. Although most Doctors have tended toward over-confidence, she isn't the first to be a bit more hesitant - Davison's Doctor second-guessed himself all the time too, and Troughton was very flighty and flustered. The Classic Doctors, though, were less wordy in general and not half as manic!

Edited January 17, 2020 by Llywela

[Eulipian 5k]

Using DNA as storage has been a thing for a while:

(Oct 19, 2018 - This week, Massive Attack are announcing a limited-edition spray can containing approximately one million DNA copies of the album. The re-issued Mezzanine is the first album ever to be released encoded as strands of synthetic DNA. www.wired.co.uk )

I still can't see the point, but Barton and the Kassavans have a plan!, or about a quarter,... or maybe just a P.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

The Doctor has been conceived as fast-talking and slightly manic ever since Tennant, it is a very consistent New Who conception of the character.

Yeah that is all I meant. Whenever they get worked up they start with the motor mouth. 

[Eulipian 5k]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

The Doctor has been conceived as fast-talking and slightly manic ever since Tennant, it is a very consistent New Who conception of the character.

I remember reading that Jenna Coleman was chosen for her role based on being able to keep up with the fast paced,(Preston Sturges type) banter she needed to have with Matt Smith. That was evident during their first scenes/episodes together.

[DanaK]

On 1/13/2020 at 1:24 PM, DanaK said:

Final consolidated numbers for Part 2 were 6.07 million with an Appreciation Index of 82. It was 16th for the week ending Jan 5 (which also included Part 1)

As I said in the Spyfall Part 1 thread, the 28-day numbers are in. The numbers quoted are for 7 days. The 28-day numbers for Part 2 were 6.69 million

[Eulipian 5k]

Maybe the Kassavans(sp?) spies are mocking us with the form they chose:

[Tyro49]

42 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Maybe the Kassavans(sp?) spies are mocking us with the form they chose:

😂🤣So I wasn't the only one to have that thought!!