S02.E09: Atonement

[MarkHB]

Quote

In the aftermath of Dick’s confession, the Titans’ world is rocked to the core – and Dick’s fear that his secret would break up the Titans comes true. Abandoning Titans Tower, the heroes all go their separate ways. Hank and Dawn return to Wyoming, Jason and Rose leave together, and Donna agrees to take Rachel with her. Kory, meanwhile, is surprised to hear from Faddei, who’s returned with bad news from her home planet. Leaving Gar alone to tend to the still wounded Conner, Dick departs as well, in search of absolution for Jericho’s death.

[Jenniferbug]

I didn't like this one much. 

Can someone explain to me why Dick saying Jericho died saving him as opposed to being already dead makes a difference? I understand them being upset about him lying, but not to the extent that they all- Rachel included- want to cut ties with him. The original Titans should know exactly how difficult it would have been for Dick to hold his own against Deathstroke so not sure what they feel he should have done differently, since they already knew he followed Jericho there. Their extreme anger just didn't add up for me at all. 

Also not understanding why Jason would leave with Rose rather than go back to Bruce if he's so pissed. He and Rose have had one whole scene of bonding together and Deathstroke was after her at one point. 

Poor Gar. He's so sweet and so earnest. I'm mad at Dick for leaving him on his own. That's not fair to him at all. He and Connor were cute buddies till Connor massively screwed up. Did Gar disconnect the call to Bruce or did Bruce not answer? Logically he'll call Bruce now if he can't get hold of Dick, but I doubt it. 

Blackfire was cool but I'm not really sure what her deal is so will probably need to do some reading on wikipedia. That plot seemed off pace considering the rest of what was going on, but I guess they needed a reason for Kory to be otherwise occupied. 

Jericho is now possessing Dick, yes? I can't think of any other reason he would suddenly decide to drop everything as the flight was boarding to assault security at the airport.

I normally don't complain about the show's pacing but this episode seems very misplaced in a season of 13. If we had 22 episodes, sure. But with 4 left, the team should be coming together not splitting apart. Again. 

ETA: no title for episode 10? Mistake or massive spoiler in title?

Edited November 1, 2019 by Jenniferbug

[Sakura12]

I could maybe understand the Titans originally breaking up because of Jericho's death. Had Dick not gone to the church, Jericho would not be dead. He went over there alone and vengeful after just seeing a bunch of Amazons get slaughtered and his half Amazon sister nearly beaten to death. He had no plan,  no back up and no way to defeat Deathstroke. That was stupid.  I get their anger at that. 

I could also understand them being upset that he lied about how Jericho died. But not the extent they were mad at him. Jericho died to save him, that's not Dick's fault. This show really needs a new writer, this one doesn't seem to have any idea what they are doing. None of this makes much sense. They just needed a reaction and didn't have a real reason to get that reaction. 

I think Jason went with Rose because he was tired of being treated like a side kick. Going back to Bruce would've put him back to being another loners side kick. Rose at least wants to be honest about everything. 

I'm not sure why Raven wanted to go with Donna then bailed on her. Where did she go? and where did Donna go? And why didn't Donna just use her super speed to go after her? I hate still hate how they are writing Donna's powers. Why did we need to spend more time with Hank and Dawn in Wyoming? They had enough character development lets have the others get some. I'm glad Gar got some actual screentime but dude, you should've called Bruce. You have no idea how to handle a super powered grown toddler. Dick also shouldn't have put that all in Gar. He wanted to restart the Titan's they are his responsibility.  

I'm sure we'll get more on the Starfire and Blackfire story but they already have too many storylines going on and don't know how to write those coherently. Breaking them up like this is such a weird narrative choice when you only have a few episodes left. Everything is just going to be rushed in the finale. 

[Jenniferbug]

49 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I could maybe understand the Titans originally breaking up because of Jericho's death. Had Dick not gone to the church, Jericho would not be dead. He went over there alone and vengeful after just seeing a bunch of Amazons get slaughtered and his half Amazon sister nearly beaten to death. He had no plan,  no back up and no way to defeat Deathstroke. That was stupid.  I get their anger at that. 

I could also understand them being upset that he lied about how Jericho died. But not the extent they were mad at him. Jericho died to save him, that's not Dick's fault. This show really needs a new writer, this one doesn't seem to have any idea what they are doing. None of this makes much sense. They just needed a reaction and didn't have a real reason to get that reaction. 

Exactly. I understand them being angry and upset, but it seemed out of proportion and unearned. The plot for plot's sake type of writing was definitely showing this episode. 

I didn't get why Donna didn't go after Rachel either. I guess she's ok letting a 15 year old with weird powers fend for herself? Dick and Donna really should not be left in charge of minors. 

I'm not really interested in Hank going back to being an addict either. 

[Sakura12]

This episode was a mess. I just watched a review from a guy that loves this show and even he was struggling to figure out what this episode was. 

I think they were trying to separate all the Titans they just didn't do it in a way that makes any sense. They made them not act like real people would act. They just let things happen and that was it. There is no real in story reason for any of it. Season 1 had it's issues but at least the story made sense. This season I have no idea what they are doing and why they are doing it. 

[Cthulhudrew]

This was a weird one. I will say that I am more convinced than ever that the theories some of you put forward about Jericho's ghost still being around are spot on. Slade was acting kind of funny when Dick came to see him, and then Dick just spaced out and starting acting out of character and getting hostile there at the end. I think Jericho jumped from Slade to Dick.

[phoenics]

The "team breakup" was completely unearned.

As I've been saying - I don't get why Dick lying about Jericho already being there vs dying to save him was SO much worse than what it was all along.  It just wasn't enough for the OGs to flip out like they were just SOOOO betrayed by him as though they weren't 100% in on and cosigning everything else.  Hypocrites.

Again - no wonder Dick felt like he couldn't be honest.  Dawn - without knowing about the lie - has already been treating him like sh!t and Hank is just always mad at him (probably partly jealousy) anyway... so it's no wonder he self-martyrs with them so much.  They're so judgmental.  They're allowed to mess up but not Dick.  

I could see the new Titans - especially Rose - feeling some kinda way - but not to that extent.  Rose I get and understand why she bounced and Jason going with her made sense in a "don't wanna be a sidekick no mo" kinda way... 

Rachel I think just felt betrayed and left out - like Dick didn't trust her or something.  I don't think she feels unsafe, etc.. she just felt lied to and after defending Dick she prob felt stupid.  I think she's gonna come around a lot faster.

I love Gar - he's so loyal and sweet.

The only thing I liked about Hank and Dawn was Hank's singing - because I know that was Alan.  I guess Minka can lipsync pretty good.  But Alan - WOW.  He could SO get it.

I was wondering why Rachel went off with Donna (when in any other circumstance she'd go with Kory) - but after she called her out for being a hypocrite and then bounced, it made a little more sense.

And Kory.  Kory was the only one who had a legit reason to go - and she's not gone permanently.  She had an actual emergency pop up.  But Dick looked so heartbroken that she was going too.  And I saw that ride or die stance she took when Hank punched Dick.  She's right - the team will calm down and eventually come back.

I'm actually sad we lost Faddei!  I liked him!  Ugh.  And while I'm really excited to see Blackfire - I'm so sad Starfire lost her parents now.  That's really sad.  And now that both the ships are destroyed - how will she get home to fight for her throne?  I hope the show doesn't skip over the fact that her parents and her entire court are now dead - that's a huge loss - please don't Strong Black Woman her, show.

Also - this show tends to spend its minutes show to show wrongly.  We get a lot of useless time with Hank and Dawn that frankly is a waste and meanwhile story beats we SHOULD see addressed fall to the wayside.

Beastboy turned into a snake.  Still nothing about that.

Kory showed up to save Dick from himself, figuring out his little martyrdom speech in the process and NO follow up between them?  Imagine if they'd have some kind of follow up to that - even an acknowledgment from Dick and a chemistry charged moment - and then Dick's expression when Kory said she had to go too?  This show.  Ugh.

LOVED Gar and Conner.  Loved Gar!  He's such a sweetheart - and poor Conner, lol.  Bless his heart.  That will draw Cadmus right to their doorstep.  And poor Gar calling Dick afterward after he messed up.  He really felt bad and he's there all alone.  *sob*

Jericho and Slade are obviously merged.  The mother/wife knows because she told Dick "They might forgive you." or something like that.  She definitely said "they".  And there was a moment when Slade seemed to be struggling - I couldn't tell if the part where he threatened Dick was Jericho or Deathstroke speaking... I feel like the part where DS said he won was Slade - but the part where he threatened to kill the Titans if Dick tried to reunite them was a corrupted Jericho.

The fact that Jericho is likely corrupted by living in Slade all these years makes me really sad.  

Last question:  Was that really Dick choosing to end up in prison by attacking the cops (that was a weird smirk on his face right before he did it) or was that Jericho?

[wingster55]

There’s a big difference between finding someone dead and being part of the reason said person is dead. I can buy everyone being upset at that lie. 
I was most upset at Donna, but I think Rache got through to her. She’ll reunite with Dick soon enough. 

[Sakura12]

Maybe Donna was mad because Dick hid the truth from her when they are supposed to be more like family. He treated her like his solider instead of a sister.  But I do hope Rachel got through to her for being a hypocrite. Which I can kind of forgive on her part she was grieving not only for Garth but Jillian too. She lost more than the rest of them. She just needs to admit the part she played in it. 

Don't really know why Hank and Dawn were as mad as they were. How Jericho died wouldn't change the fact that he died. But again I can't really call them hypocrites since they were all made to act so stupidly just to make this story work. And even then it doesn't make much sense. I would think a writer would've been able to come up for a better reason for them to break up then this. This is character regression and it will be probably be a rushed resolution because this show doesn't like to actually tell a story between the characters, it's just likes to get from point A to point C and skip point B where the characters talk to each other as actual characters. 

They need to get the writers from Doom Patrol to teach them how to write for an ensemble cast. 

[DeadlyEuphoric]

I was most disappointed in Donna too, because she was pretty much all in about using Jericho from the very beginning as wanted revenge for Garth. Never seemed to have the second thoughts Dick had about it. And Dick WAS going to let Jericho and his father meet and it was only after Donna almost got killed herself that he went off to face and try to stop Deathstroke. So Donna being all "he got a kid killed and lied about it!" and turning on him for that is very hypocritical.

Speaking of hypocricy. Rachel is the last person to be upset with anyone about keeping secrets. It is not like she is an open book herself. but did like her giving Donna the "you were all part of it" speech. And I think her leaving was more about her condition and not wanting to put anyone in danger (she almost killed Jason and killed Rose after all!) and using the situation at hand as a way to go far away from them all, rather than actual anger at Dick. It gave her an out, without needing to explain her real reason for leaving, and ensure they (especially Dick) would leave her be.

About had enough with Hank and Dawn's holier-than-thou attitudes and angst.

I think a big problem with the show is, Titans were supposedly very close and like "family" but they sure don't come out as such. They seem to barely tolerate one another, really. Especially the Hank, Dawn, Dick triangle. And Dawn and Donna may had some friendship but doesn't look like it was anything special and Donna probably wouldn't notice it at all if Hank was gone for a whole month, don't think they have any connection whatsoever.

I think the "I won, and now you get to be alone" speech was Jericho. The death threads (which came after a power struggle between Jericho and Deathstroke) was DS. Dick was going to go into seclusion (so giving Jericho what he wanted) but I think Jericho took over his mind (poor Dick, always gets possessed!) and made him go to prison, probably thinking that may be a safer way to ensure Dick never gets to reunite Titans again (thus protecting them from his father) and also as further punishment for Dick. Guess he doesn't expect Bruce to just spring Dick from prison come next episode like I do... heh.

Also, I am of the opinion Jericho's mother is as much to blame for his death as anyone else. SHE set Deathstroke on Titans on a mission to bring her son back (I think she even said "fix it")  and pretty sure she knew (and couldn't care less) that it would lead to their possible deaths (this is DS after all, we all know how he "fixes" things). It went horribly and her son ended up being the one who got killed, but she set it all in motion.

Edited November 2, 2019 by DeadlyEuphoric

[phoenics]

48 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

There’s a big difference between finding someone dead and being part of the reason said person is dead. I can buy everyone being upset at that lie. 
I was most upset at Donna, but I think Rache got through to her. She’ll reunite with Dick soon enough. 

But Donna had just been attacked from DS and almost killed. I don't see why others can go off half-cocked but Dick has to be perfect?  And DS killed his own son - not Dick.  It's not right to blame Dick for that.  DS is in control of his own actions.

And honestly - Dick was right.  DS is just so used to mowing down anything and everyone that he forgot his son was even around - there's no excuse for that last kill move he did to be so reckless that he didn't know it was his son.  Even the way the kill strike happened, it wasn't down like when he was about to kill Kory, who was laying on the ground as Dick was - it was up too high.

I'm almost believing folks who suggest that DS killed him on purpose.

Another thing is that they were all part of the reason why Jericho was dead.  They all cosigned everything that happened up until that point.  Blaming Dick solely as though it was the most egregious thing ever to go there alone when he has known Donna almost his whole life is unfair.  It's unfair to give Donna space for her grief to color her actions but to not give Dick the same humanity.

I'm not saying Dick was right to lie - but I do understand.

It still doesn't seem big enough for this massive breakup.

37 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They need to get the writers from Doom Patrol to teach them how to write for an ensemble cast. 

I couldn't agree more with this - with the exception of that episode that Bianca Sam (I think that's her name) wrote and whoever wrote that Conner episode.

For what it's worth, I did enjoy the episode - I just didn't think the reason for the "break up" was earned.  It felt plot driven, as you said.

Not to go too off-topic but that therapy episode on Doom Patrol was AMAZING and really well done - and so well earned.

[phoenics]

32 minutes ago, DeadlyEuphoric said:

I was most disappointed in Donna too, because she was pretty much all in about using Jericho from the very beginning as wanted revenge for Garth. Never seemed to have the second thoughts Dick had about it. And Dick WAS going to let Jericho and his father meet and it was only after Donna almost got killed herself that he went off to face and try to stop Deathstroke. So Donna being all "he got a kid killed and lied about it!" and turning on him for that is very hypocritical.

Speaking of hypocricy. Rachel is the last person to be upset with anyone about keeping secrets. It is not like she is an open book herself. but did like her giving Donna the "you were all part of it" speech. And I think her leaving was more about her condition and not wanting to put anyone in danger (she almost killed Jason and killed Rose after all!) and using the situation at hand as a way to go far away from them all, rather than actual anger at Dick. It gave her an out, without needing to explain her real reason for leaving, and ensure they (especially Dick) would leave her be.

About had enough with Hank and Dawn's holier-than-thou attitudes and angst.

I think a big problem with the show is, Titans were supposedly very close and like "family" but they sure don't come out as such. They seem to barely tolerate one another, really. Especially the Hank, Dawn, Dick triangle. And Dawn and Donna may had some friendship but doesn't look like it was anything special and Donna probably wouldn't notice it at all if Hank was gone for a whole month, don't think they have any connection whatsoever.

I think the "I won, and now you get to be alone" speech was Jericho. The death threads (which came after a power struggle between Jericho and Deathstroke) was DS. Dick was going to go into seclusion (so giving Jericho what he wanted) but I think Jericho took over his mind (poor Dick, always gets possessed!) and made him go to prison, probably thinking that may be a safer way to ensure Dick never gets to reunite Titans again (thus protecting them from his father) and also as further punishment for Dick. Guess he doesn't expect Bruce to just spring Dick from prison come next episode like I do... heh.

I agree with all of this except I don't think Bruce will spring him from prison (I hope they don't have him come rescue Dick - I'd rather some of the core 4 titans do that)... he might be the one to make the charges go away though.

[Cthulhudrew]

I think it was kind of shitty that Kory didn't give a bit more of an explanation before jetting off, but I guess it wouldn't have been as dramatic as if characters acted like real people.

I think Gar may not remember turning into a snake, which is kind of crappy because it means he doesn't realize he can turn into other types of animals yet, and we really needed a scene in this ep of Gar running around with Krypto as a green dog.

[BaggythePanther]

Maybe I missed it last week, but I didn’t realize Dick lied to the OG Titans about how Jericho died. In hindsight I think it makes the OG breakup even more ridiculous, because they were all so angry with Dick even though they thought Jericho was dead when Dick got to the church. If no one thought Dick was involved with Jericho’s death, why were they so angry?

This episode felt like treading water. Kory’s and Conner’s storylines were the only ones that went anywhere and I guess Dick’s trip to DS might mean something later. I’m going to break something if next week is a flashback.

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

Also - this show tends to spend its minutes show to show wrongly.  We get a lot of useless time with Hank and Dawn that frankly is a waste and meanwhile story beats we SHOULD see addressed fall to the wayside.

Why do they spend so much time on Hank and Dawn? I might be able to forgive it if they did something interesting, but the writing is just repeating the same story beats. I would have much rather spent that time with Donna.

16 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

ETA: no title for episode 10? Mistake or massive spoiler in title?

On my app it has the title of episode 10 listed, 

Spoiler

the episode is called “Fallen”.

[waving feather]

9 hours ago, phoenics said:

The "team breakup" was completely unearned.

As I've been saying - I don't get why Dick lying about Jericho already being there vs dying to save him was SO much worse than what it was all along.  It just wasn't enough for the OGs to flip out like they were just SOOOO betrayed by him as though they weren't 100% in on and cosigning everything else.  Hypocrites

Yep. Especially for Donna. Even back then she was completely with Dick in wanting to avenge her boyfriend's death. And she sort of went after Deathstroke on her own too when she found the dead Amazons. But suddenly she's being a hypocrite about Dick? Nah, it just doesn't add up.

Hank, I get because he was never comfortable with using Jericho and he never really got along with Dick either. Still, you would think they have gotten over their anger the first time they split up. I understand if they just want a time out from all of Dick's drama, but that's not how they left. They left in a huff, lol.

Gar is so sweet and he's the only one of them who is allowed to be mad at Dick because Dick just left him unprepared with a super powered toddler. That's irresponsible of Dick. 

Hank and Dawn are exhausting to watch. Dawn coddles and soothes Hank too much like he's a baby and I think that's one of the reason of their dysfunction. Out of the pair, I actually like Hank more because he's more honest with himself. Dawn likes being the savior and the "righteous" one in the relationship, fixing the broken men. The same thing happened with Dick too.

Edited November 2, 2019 by waving feather

[DeadlyEuphoric]

6 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

Maybe I missed it last week, but I didn’t realize Dick lied to the OG Titans about how Jericho died. In hindsight I think it makes the OG breakup even more ridiculous, because they were all so angry with Dick even though they thought Jericho was dead when Dick got to the church. If no one thought Dick was involved with Jericho’s death, why were they so angry?

Yeah made no sense. If what they knew is Deathstroke killed his own son, then they were angry at Dick for involving Jericho in the first place and making him a target for his father. But that was on ALL of them. Furthermore, Dawn should have gotten more of the blame if that is what they believed happened as she is the one who talked Dick into letting Jericho go meet his father all alone. What did she do, threw Dick under the bus and pretended it was his idea and decision all along? lol. Also if they thought Deathstroke is a crazy maniac who will just kill his own son, why would they disband and stop trying to catch him and let him run free? It seems they disbanded simply because they were too afraid of Deathstroke, but collectively decided to make the official reason be "angry at Dick" because that is easier on their egos.

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

I agree with all of this except I don't think Bruce will spring him from prison (I hope they don't have him come rescue Dick - I'd rather some of the core 4 titans do that)... he might be the one to make the charges go away though.

I think out of the core 4 only Donna is likely to do it, which would be fitting and is rather a needed Donna/Dick reunion moment. Where she apologizes for leaving him and putting the whole blame on him and makes him feel a little less like a failure maybe and stresses the team needs him. If not that, I do want him to see the message from Gar on his phone and come to that realization himself. He is needed and has to get his game straight and do the right things NOW rather than dwell on the past so much and keep repeating those mistakes and letting it run all his decisions and actions. 

Hank and Dawn are too involved with their own stuff so don't expect them to be involved with Dick right now. Hank generally could care less about Dick and is supposed to be going back to drinking I think. And Dawn will probably be too busy trying to fix him again. Besides I really don't want her toxic judgemental self anywhere near Dick, he feels horrible about himself anyway. He needs to regain his self-respect and self-worth and Dawn has the opposite effect.

I kind of expect Bruce to be involved at some point because Jason -who he left in Dick's care- is out somewhere on his own, Conner is out there attacking policemen, and Dick just got himself arrested for attacking airport security. Daddy will NOT be happy. What I didn't catch is if he hung up on Gar or never picked up. They may be postponing his involvement if he is "too busy" and unavailable right now.

2 hours ago, waving feather said:

Gar is so sweet and he's the only one of them who is allowed to be mad at Dick because Dick just left him unprepared with a super powered toddler. That's irresponsible of Dick.

It really was. Dick wants to help the new generation and he is right they do need help and a place to belong and call home but he is too lost in his own problems to do it right. He needs to get his act together and treat this as a fresh start. Which I gues what this is all leading to... Probably with Kory's help and guidance, though not sure about it as now SHE has own big problems.

Titans really need a proper win soon, btw. All they got to do this season is bicker endlessly among themselves and get beaten by DS at every turn. They don't seem to be good for anything except beating up some common criminals, which is embarrassing. A big part of the problem is the depowering of Donna. But with Conner and Kory and Rachel being added (assuming the team will properly reform) they will hopefully become more equipped  to actually do some super-heroing and maybe poor Donna will be allowed to come off more powerful from now on.

Edited November 2, 2019 by DeadlyEuphoric

[jelaine]

39 minutes ago, DeadlyEuphoric said:

What I didn't catch is if he hung up on Gar or never picked up.

The impression I got was that Gar ended the call before Bruce even had a chance to answer. He realized that if he called Bruce, Bruce would take Conner away and Gar would be alone again. I think that was part of the reason he was so upset at the end when he called Dick saying he'd messed up/made a mistake.

Just my take though.

[DeadlyEuphoric]

52 minutes ago, jelaine said:

The impression I got was that Gar ended the call before Bruce even had a chance to answer. He realized that if he called Bruce, Bruce would take Conner away and Gar would be alone again. I think that was part of the reason he was so upset at the end when he called Dick saying he'd messed up/made a mistake.

Just my take though.

Oh ok, that makes more sense. Thanks. Dick really should have known better than to leave Gar all alone like that. He didn't just leave the one guy who was still on his side, he also put too big a responsibility and burden on him. 😕

[Lyanna19]

Well! That's was.... Disappointing, but really did I expect more for those judgemental idiots? Well yes I did expect more from Rachel if not Donna. 

Dear sweet Gar, I love you for being what a friend should be. 

Not sure what's going on with Dick, I didn't even think about Jericho possessing Slade or Dick, cause didn't Jason's eyes flicker or something? I honestly thought Dick has an idea that something or someone in prison can help him, and the only way to get to it/him is if he is in jail too. 🤷‍♂️ 😂 Hopefully we'll find out next episode. 

Spoiler

But won't going to prison ruin his chances for becoming a cop? 🤔 (he's a member of the Blüdhaven police force when he becomes Nightwing) all this confuses me from what I remember and know from the comic books. 

I don't like that he left Gar all alone with Connor either.... That's not the Dick I know who is like Bruce Wayne and thinks things through. Jason is the impulsive one, and that's one thing the writers got right. 

[MarkHB]

4 hours ago, jelaine said:

The impression I got was that Gar ended the call before Bruce even had a chance to answer. He realized that if he called Bruce, Bruce would take Conner away and Gar would be alone again. I think that was part of the reason he was so upset at the end when he called Dick saying he'd messed up/made a mistake.

Just my take though.

My thought too. Dick didn't count on how Gar would react to the loneliness. Gar should have called Eve, at least.

I'm also really sad about Connor. Yes, mentally he's about 3, but now he's a cop killer. He really doesn't deserve to be thought of as an evil Superman, but that's effectively what he is to the world.

[phoenics]

So - it's not clear to me that Jericho is necessarily corrupted within Slade.

Because of this (found on reddit):

If Jericho is corrupted then would he be signing "HELP"?

I have to admit - this was a really good catch.  Wow.  I knew Slade grunting and groaning was something with Jericho, but the ESL puts it over the top.

[Lyanna19]

8 minutes ago, phoenics said:

So - it's not clear to me that Jericho is necessarily corrupted within Slade.

Because of this (found on reddit):

If Jericho is corrupted then would he be signing "HELP"?

I have to admit - this was a really good catch.  Wow.  I knew Slade grunting and groaning was something with Jericho, but the ESL puts it over the top.

Now you have to share the link Werke you found this on reddit... Please

[Lyanna19]

@phoenics never mind found it... 😂 

[Lyanna19]

I just had a thought, what if this is all a ruse to get Jericho/Slade come out? Everyone pretends to be pissed at Dick, except for poor Gar, who no one tells anything, or is that the whole point, Gar is Jericho.... Ok I have a headache now

[Sakura12]

Oh that would be more interesting if Jericho accidentally went into Slade right before his body died and he's been stuck watching his father murder people. Hopefully being in his father's head he got to see what kind of man he really is. And knows that the Titan's and Dick were doing the right thing by taking him out. Rather than him being blaming them for what happened to him. 

Maybe the hints he was leaving wasn't too piss them off but to let them know he's still around. Now I really hope that's the case because this show has a lot to make up for with the stupidity it took to get this break up to happen. 

I'm thinking Jericho jumped into Dick while Slade was threatening him to keep the Titans apart. Jericho that wanted to stop Dick from leaving. Dick being arrested would probably bring the Titans back together and that's what he wants. 

[Lambsilencer]

Quote

Speaking of hypocricy. Rachel is the last person to be upset with anyone about keeping secrets. It is not like she is an open book herself. but did like her giving Donna the "you were all part of it" speech. And I think her leaving was more about her condition and not wanting to put anyone in danger (she almost killed Jason and killed Rose after all!) and using the situation at hand as a way to go far away from them all, rather than actual anger at Dick. It gave her an out, without needing to explain her real reason for leaving, and ensure they (especially Dick) would leave her be.

I read on this forum in other threads that some people don't like the reduced screentime Rachel is getting this season. But I get it. Last season, she was a very big presence, and the main story pretty much revolved around her. But there is, of course, a lot more to "Titans" than Dick, Cory and Rachel. So, this season, it was time to delve deeper into the backstory of how the Titans initially separated, a backstory which obviously didn't include Rachel at all. And it was time to delve deeper into storylines involving the other characters. Thus, after a big presence in the first season, I think it's fine that Rachel gets put to the side for a bit to give the other characters some room. After all, she is still a 15-year old kid and therefore, it is only natural that Dick would try to keep her away from the all-too-adult business of the Titans in general. So, if I were Dick, after that "You at least got the half-truth" remark from her, would have told her that at 15 she is supposed to be in the background at best, and not forefront in decisions that are clearly beyond her level of current maturity - no matter what she has been going through. She's a kid, so it's only logical (to me at least) that Dick is trying to keep her away when things get too messy.

Even though the show started with Rachel, she, to me, is still not a fully-fledged Titan, and putting her too much into the action would give her a kind of lead role she, at her age, is not appropriate to have yet. But I'm looking forward where they are taking her story next.

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, Lyanna19 said:

@phoenics never mind found it... 😂 

Sorry - I was out with family and didn't see this - glad you found it.

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Lambsilencer said:

I read on this forum in other threads that some people don't like the reduced screentime Rachel is getting this season. But I get it. Last season, she was a very big presence, and the main story pretty much revolved around her. But there is, of course, a lot more to "Titans" than Dick, Cory and Rachel. So, this season, it was time to delve deeper into the backstory of how the Titans initially separated, a backstory which obviously didn't include Rachel at all. And it was time to delve deeper into storylines involving the other characters. Thus, after a big presence in the first season, I think it's fine that Rachel gets put to the side for a bit to give the other characters some room. After all, she is still a 15-year old kid and therefore, it is only natural that Dick would try to keep her away from the all-too-adult business of the Titans in general. So, if I were Dick, after that "You at least got the half-truth" remark from her, would have told her that at 15 she is supposed to be in the background at best, and not forefront in decisions that are clearly beyond her level of current maturity - no matter what she has been going through. She's a kid, so it's only logical (to me at least) that Dick is trying to keep her away when things get too messy.

Even though the show started with Rachel, she, to me, is still not a fully-fledged Titan, and putting her too much into the action would give her a kind of lead role she, at her age, is not appropriate to have yet. But I'm looking forward where they are taking her story next.

I agree with this.  In the line of characters who need development and screentime, Rachel is at the end of it, tbh.  Both Kory and Gar were shafted last season (with Kory's solo episode fully cut out of S1) and so I'm fine with Rachel taking a backseat.  And even with her backseat, she's still gotten focus this season - much more than Gar got.  She's not being ignored.

But I also think Hank and Dawn have gotten too much focus.  Especially since their stuff doesn't seem to move the Titans story forward - it just moves the Hank and Dawn story forward.  I really need them to give Hank & Dawn their own spinoff now - everything that happens with them just feels like it's about them and not connected to the other Titans.  And there's no chance it will connect with them either, really.  Unless Dawn just leaves Hank to fall down a drug hole and the other Titans come to the rescue?  What's frustrating is that I kinda WANT to know what's up with Hank and why that woman blaming him for her brother's death made him flip out and dump Dawn (although he dropped a lot of truth bombs), but I want to know that on another show.  Not Titans.  Their drama just feels separate from the main cast.

That's partially a gripe I have with Kory's story too - even though I'm so happy to see it - she had this whole arc where the person she was interacting with DIED.  And none of the Titans ever even met him.  So there is the chance for no one to know what Kory is dealing with or going through.  I guess Donna could know - but it does make it easy for them to SBW Kory and make her deal with the death of her parents and her entire court offscreen and alone.  If other Titans had known about Faddei and met him, his death would be felt more and there'd be a chance for Kory to grieve with the other Titans.  As it is, I feel like they're gonna make Kory grieve offscreen, if she grieves at all for Faddei and her parents - more than the "F***!!!" she let out after the confrontation with Blackfire.

I hope the last 3 episodes do better.

I would say that this show should have longer seasons, but it feels like it's struggling to fill the seasons it has.  The pacing is poor.

Also - I feel like this is the show that has the responsibility of spinning off other shows and that's hurting it.

[Sakura12]

We kind of saw Donna grieve for Garth but it was still more of a Dick and Jericho story. We didn't see her grieve Jillian and the OG Titans knew about her. The only ones get any real stories are Dick, Dawn and Hank. And like you I don't know why we spend so much time on Hank and Dawn. Dick's story is at least connected to the main plot. 

If they wanted to keep the Titans separated they should've just kept them separated longer after Trigon. They could've had Dick training the new kids at the Tower, while Donna and Kory were fighting crime in Chicago and telling each other about Tamarin and Themyscira and Hank and Dawn could've been boring in Wyoming. Then the new Titans could've done something to get on Deathstroke's radar and he went after the OG Titans forcing them to come together to fight him. And the OG titans have to tell the new ones happened to Garth and Jericho in one full flashback episode. 

Also - I feel like this is the show that has the responsibilityof spinning off other shows and that's hurting it.

The only show the Titans kind of set up is Doom Patrol and that wasn't even necessary since I watched Doom Patrol first and had no issues getting to know the characters since that show has better writers. And they never even mentioned Gar or the Titans. 

[phoenics]

40 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

The only show the Titans kind of set up is Doom Patrol and that wasn't even necessary since I watched Doom Patrol first and had no issues getting to know the characters since that show has better writers. And they never even mentioned Gar or the Titans. 

Oh - yes - I just meant that I think the Titans show is still being written partially to spin off other shows - like something for Dawn and Hank, maybe Superboy, etc...

I've heard they are still considering spinning off H&D.

[crazymadness]

On 11/2/2019 at 10:39 PM, phoenics said:

Oh - yes - I just meant that I think the Titans show is still being written partially to spin off other shows - like something for Dawn and Hank, maybe Superboy, etc...

I've heard they are still considering spinning off H&D.

God, why?  H&D are so uninteresting.  I could see a show for Conner and Krypto, but H&D, nope.

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, crazymadness said:

God, why?  H&D are so uninteresting.  I could see a show for Conner and Krypto, but H&D, nope.

If it gets them off Titans, I'm all for it.  

I like Conner and Krypto.  They can stay until they decide to spin them off into their own show.

[BaggythePanther]

On 11/7/2019 at 1:35 PM, crazymadness said:

God, why?  H&D are so uninteresting.  I could see a show for Conner and Krypto, but H&D, nope.

Hank and Dawn have grown on me. I don’t mind them, more so that they get so much screen time compared to other characters who need more development. It really would be better if they had their own show.

[Bruinsfan]

I started out really liking Hank and Dawn. Well, Dawn anyway. But after all the loyalty and common sense they've show the last two episodes Warner Bros. can spin them off to their own show in the Friday Night Fast Cancellation Slot on Fox for all I care.

[Ottis]

This ep must be where the “teen” part of Teen Titans comes in, good grief. Everybody’s feelings are hurt, awwwwww. Enough that they leave a stranger who is unable to care for himself is in bed. Awesome, heroes! I can imagine what Batman and Superman say about you all at the bar.

Also? Dawn and Hank are so annoying. They are the couple you would like for 5 minutes and then try to lose. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by Ottis