Questions Asked, Answers Given

[formerlyfreedom]

A place for Watchmen watchers to ask questions of Watchmen readers.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Who is the Jeremy Irons character? He is batshit crazy.

He is Adrian "Ozymandias" Veidt, who was billed as the smartest man in the world in the original graphic novel and the movie based on it. He is, unbeknownst for most of the original Watchmen, the force behind most of the events in what was apparently a successful bid to trick the world into peace..

Ozymandias was born to rich parents and grew up admiring Alexander the Great. He gave up his fortune and traveled in Alexander's footsteps. He became a costumed adventurer, combining both brains and athleticism. He also used his wits to become a billionaire all over again. He came to fear the possibility of nuclear armageddon and decided to figure out a way to avoid it.

The plot he concocted was just so crazy that it worked. He secretly hired a bunch of experts- artists, writers, scientists, etc -  to create a convincing backstory about an invasion of a squid-like creature from another dimension, complete with a genetic engineered brain of a psychic. He teleported this creature to New York, where its arrival killed half the population and that would transmit psychic signals that would drive many of the survivors mad. The idea was to create something so awful that the world would think it had no choice but to unite and face that threat.

While the plot was getting underway, a superhero operative of the government called the Comedian discovered it and was freaked out by it. Adrian killed him in what looked like a burglary. But it caught the attention of Rorshach, another masked superhero. Rorshach came up with the theory that someone was trying to kill vigilantes. Adrian first tried to put himself beyond suspicion by staging an attack on himself and even forcing his would-be assassin to eat a cyanide capsule. He also prompted Doctor Manhattan, who has godlike powers and who had been the lynchpin of America's defenses, to give up on his ties to humanity by giving his associates cancer. Then he framed Rorshach for the killing of a longtime villain. But Rorshach and his partner Nite Owl eventually learned some of the details of Adrian's plot and went to confront him at his Antarctic refuge. Rorshach had keept a journal and sent it to a right-wing publication called the New Frontiersman before their departure.

By the time they did, he had enacted his scheme. The early signs were that it had worked. Rorshach was going to refuse to be silent about what happened, so Doctor Manhattan killed him. 

It appears by the time of the show, the ploy about an interdimensional attack is still going strong. But for whatever reason, Adrian has isolated himself with his robotic/clone servants in some sort of estate and is doing the crazy things we've seen.

[rmontro]

I've read the original Watchmen series and enjoyed it and the movie.  Now I'm watching the TV series, here's my question:

Is any of this series based on any of the sequels or prequels to Watchmen that were released in the comics (none of which I have read)?  Or is this strictly the vision of Damon Lindelof and whoever else might be writing this show?

[LoveLeigh]

Thank-you for the excellent explanation Chicago Redshirt and thank-you for that question rmontro.

I have not read the comics or seen the 2009 film. While I think it is possible to watch and enjoy this series as a separate piece from the comics, I think that so much happened in the comics (as explained above) that this series may not be as enjoyable or as easily understood as it will be for those who are familiar with this plot and the characters. 

I think the characters are directly from the comics but the plot in the series is brand new. Am I correct on that? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, rmontro said:

I've read the original Watchmen series and enjoyed it and the movie.  Now I'm watching the TV series, here's my question:

Is any of this series based on any of the sequels or prequels to Watchmen that were released in the comics (none of which I have read)?  Or is this strictly the vision of Damon Lindelof and whoever else might be writing this show?

I admittedly have only glanced at some of Before Watchmen and Doomsday Clock, but I feel relatively comfortable saying that the show has almost nothing to do with either. Since Doomsday Clock involves Watchmen characters crossing over to the main DC universe, I'm 100 percent certain about there being no functional link (although there could be some minor Easter Egg.)

13 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Thank-you for the excellent explanation Chicago Redshirt and thank-you for that question rmontro.

I have not read the comics or seen the 2009 film. While I think it is possible to watch and enjoy this series as a separate piece from the comics, I think that so much happened in the comics (as explained above) that this series may not be as enjoyable or as easily understood as it will be for those who are familiar with this plot and the characters. 

I think the characters are directly from the comics but the plot in the series is brand new. Am I correct on that? 

You're of course welcome!

The comic/movie was set primarily in Manhattan. So the Tulsa setting and the characters affiliated with it are brand new.

So far, there have been only two main characters from the comics who have been introduced: Adrian (who I may refer to as Ozy because I'm lazy at typing :)) and Doctor Manhattan. The 7th Calvary people seem to be conducting themselves in what they perceive to be the spirit of Rorshach, but Rorshach himself is dead.

The American Hero Story tv show featured in HBO's Watchmen is featuring background on other characters from the comics/movie that were mostly dead by that time frame, and almost certainly would be dead now that it is 30 years later. These vigilantes from the 30s and 40s who belonged to a group called the Minutemen. Think Justice Society of America with darker secrets. In the second episode, AHS had Hooded Justice. 

 

In the graphic novel, Hooded Justice was a bruiser type who may have had sympathies with the Nazis. He interrupted one of the Minutemen, the Comedian, as he tried to rape another Minuteman, Silk Spectre. The Comedian vowed revenge, and a person thought to be Hooded Justice washed up on shore with a bullet in him. The implication was that the Comedian did take revenge. But Show Watchmen, or at least, AHS, seems to be implying that person wasn't the real Hooded Justice. So who knows?

We will be introduced to at least one other character from the graphic novel/movie shortly:

 

Laurie Blake is the daughter of two of the original Minutemen, the Comedian and Silk Spectre. (After the rape, the Comedian and Silk Spectre apparently did have at least a fling that resulted in her birth. Laurie was a vigilante in her own right as Silk Spectre II who did not know at first the Comedian was her father. She dated Doctor Manhattan, then started seeing Nite Owl. She convinced Doctor Manhattan to come back to Earth from his self-imposed exile to Mars to investigate Ozy, and was one of the heroes kept in check by the revelation of Ozy's trick. When last we saw her in the comics, she was thinking of revising her superhero persona to be more like her father.

In HBO Watchmen, she apparently is going to be a FBI agent who is going to show a lot of her father's cynicism and she's going by "the Comedienne."

Edited October 29, 2019 by Chicago Redshirt

[rmontro]

On 10/29/2019 at 12:05 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

ISo far, there have been only two main characters from the comics who have been introduced: Adrian (who I may refer to as Ozy because I'm lazy at typing :)) and Doctor Manhattan. 

I assume you're talking about the "Dr. Manhattan" who was in the play.  Because I don't recall seeing the real Dr. Manhattan show up in the show yet.  Has he?  I thought I was paying closer attention than that.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, rmontro said:

I assume you're talking about the "Dr. Manhattan" who was in the play.  Because I don't recall seeing the real Dr. Manhattan show up in the show yet.  Has he?  I thought I was paying closer attention than that.

I believe in the first episode there was a clip where footage from Mars was shown in a news report about water there, and everyone's favorite blue nekkid guy was in it. 

Whether this was supposed to be current footage (showing that Doc is on Mars now), file footage (meaning, that as we know from the comics/movie he had been on Mars at some point but his current whereabouts are unknown) or what, who can say?

In the comics, Doc had said that he was going to travel to another galaxy and perhaps create human life there. Did he do that and return? Or never go? Or do both? (Since he can split himself into multiple bodies) I assume we will find out.

[CouchTater]

I'm new to Watchmen.  I'm finding that the show does not sufficiently stand on its own.  It feels like a little boutique show for the graphic novel fans.

However, I enjoy shows that require outside reading, podcast listening, etc.  I've basically been doing homework in order to enjoy the show.  I like that.  But I imagine that many of  those who haven't read the graphic novel or watched the movie won't be interested enough to stick with the show.  And I wouldn't blame them.

All that said, I actually do have a question:  Is Angela/Sister Night a character from the graphic novel?  Or is she a show creation?  I love her so far, and wonder how she fits into the Watchmen world outside of the show.

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 minutes ago, CouchTater said:

All that said, I actually do have a question:  Is Angela/Sister Night a character from the graphic novel?  Or is she a show creation?  I love her so far, and wonder how she fits into the Watchmen world outside of the show.

Welcome!

Basically, the action of the original novel took place in Manhattan in the 80s. Angela and al the Tulsa-based characters, as far as we know, are original to the show.

If you scroll up a little, I talk about the characters from the graphic novel that have been shown in the show through the first couple episodes and a third we are looking to meet shortly.

If you like doing outside reading, you may want to check out HBO's peteypedia.

[CouchTater]

Thank you @Chicago Redshirt!

[rmontro]

On 10/30/2019 at 1:07 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Whether this was supposed to be current footage (showing that Doc is on Mars now), file footage (meaning, that as we know from the comics/movie he had been on Mars at some point but his current whereabouts are unknown) or what, who can say?

I had assumed that was file footage, but you're right, it could be current.  I believe in both the comics and the movie he had said he was leaving the galaxy.  Wonder what would prompt his return?

If that is current footage, that would require some kind of sophisticated equipment they have to track and film him.

[starri]

I'm trying to figure out how many states are in the US now.  I know they've established Vietnam is a state, but the radically different-looking flag looked like it had more than 51 stars.

[CouchTater]

Again, I'm new to the Watchmen universe (and comics in general).  So pardon my newbie question:  the book, the movie, the HBO series.  Are all 3 directly related?  I see a lot of criticism/disdain regarding the movie (I haven't seen it), but I also see references to the movie in relation to the tv show.

My understanding is that the show takes place 30-ish years after the graphic novel.  How does the book fit in, if at all?

Thanks.

[Mr. Sparkle]

The movie is an adaptation of the graphic novel. I personally thought it was mediocre, of course, that's a matter of opinion.  I don't believe the movie added anything new, story or character-wise, to the book. 

The tv show, as you mentioned, takes place some decades after the book. There are some mentions of the characters in the book, but so far, the show is kind of its own story set in the world of the book. I think, as the show develops, it'll tie into the book more. 

The supplemental material on HBO's site ties into the graphic novel frequently. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 11/3/2019 at 10:11 AM, CouchTater said:

Again, I'm new to the Watchmen universe (and comics in general).  So pardon my newbie question:  the book, the movie, the HBO series.  Are all 3 directly related?  I see a lot of criticism/disdain regarding the movie (I haven't seen it), but I also see references to the movie in relation to the tv show.

My understanding is that the show takes place 30-ish years after the graphic novel.  How does the book fit in, if at all?

Thanks.

The book/graphic novel and the movie follow essentially the same plot: Costumed superheroes have existed for decades, and one of them comes up with a crazy plot to avoid nuclear holocaust by scaring the world into uniting against a manufactured threat. The main differences between the two in terms of plot is the graphic novel has the threat be an invasion from a nightmarish race of squid creatures from another dimension, and the movie has the threat be a rogue Doctor Manhattan. The graphic novel came out in and was set in the 80s. I don't think the movie was as specifically tied to that time frame. 

The show builds off the universe of the graphic novel but in 2019. 

In terms of quality, the graphic novel is hailed basically as one of the best in its genre, and is sophisticated and multi-dimensional. Movies are going to have to lose a lot of nuance by definition, and I think it's fair to say that simplifying doesn't help movie Watchmen.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Quote

I don't know anything about this world ... why Nixon and Redford apparently were (are?) admired US presidents... And why is the FBI agent's blue dildo that size - is it shorthand for her being a ballbuster?

I did see the 2009 movies, so I have a little background around the original "heroes." Have we seen them all now (who is the owl character?)? What does the woman hunting them do with them? Is she hunting them because she is mad at Doc for leaving her? Or is this yet another argument (already seen in Avengers: Civil War and Batman Vs. Superman) of whether superheroes (sometimes called vigilantes) should be allowed to exist?[/quote]

The world of Watchmen deviates from ours in a few key respects:

1. People had been functioning as costumed heroes since the 30s. The first group of these were the Minutemen, who have been referenced in the show-within-a-show American Hero Story. The Minutemen were: Hooded Justice, Nite Owl I, Silk Spectre I, the Comedian, Dollar Bill, Mothman, the Silhouette, and Captain Metropolis. (Through the first three episodes of the show, we have seen the names of all these dropped through the American Hero Story, an excerpt from the AHS on Hooded Justice, a poster featuring Dollar Bill in the house raided by the cops, and paparazzi who apparently use a version of Mothman's flying tech referred to as "Moths"). These characters were largely in the background of the graphic novel. 

Starting in the late 50s and 60s, there was a second wave of these heroes. They included Doctor Manhattan, Nite Owl II, Silk Spectre II, Rorshach, and Ozymandias. These are the characters the graphic novel/movie focused most on. and I'll summarize a little more about each further down. In 1977. the father of the show's Senator Keene got a law passed banning people from operating as heroes.

2. The existence of Doctor Manhattan changed the face of the Cold War, technology and U.S. history. Doc is the only hero who has actual superpowers. And as has been alluded to, his powers are vast: he can teleport himself/others, he can divide himself into multiple bodies, he can fire energy blasts, he can create/transmute elements, he can change himself into a giant and he can see the past and the future simultaneously. He also, as has been said, is blue and likes to walk around naked. The U.S. built its armed defense strategy around his powers. He basically single-handedly won the Viet Nam War. That victory led to Viet Nam becoming a state. (We don't know for sure, at least from the novel or any of the supplementary materials I've read, how many states there are at the time of HBO's Watchmen, or what those other states are.) The victory also increased Nixon's popularity (along with Watergate never getting exposed because Woodward and Bernstein were mysteriously murdered). The amendment setting presidential term limits was repealed, and Nixon remained president until the 80s. His successor was Robert Redford, who has served to the present day of the show and recently said he is not going to seek re-election. Because of Doc's abilities, in some ways the tech in Watchmen is far more advanced than ours (such as airships).

3. Adrian "Ozymandias" Veidt (the Jeremy Irons character) executed a plan to dupe the world into peace that seemingly has worked. To briefly sum up the contents of the novel, Ozy is thought to be the smartest man in the world. He saw signs that nuclear holocaust was inevitable. So he engineered a massive hoax that the world was facing an invasion from squid-like creatures from another dimension, up to including teleporting one such supposed creature to New York, where its arrival killed 3 million people and drove numerous others insane. The idea was to convince the world that there existed such an existential threat that they would have no choice but to unite to face it. (The one major change between the movie and the graphic novel is that Ozy uses the idea of a rogue Doctor Manhattan as the threat rather than the squid.) According to the supplementary materials, in the aftermath of this hoax, people had a period of distrusting technology or being concerned that it might facilitate another extradimensional invasion. So that is why the world of Watchmen in some respects is less technologically advanced than our own. (For example, they only have pagers, but not smart phones).

In terms of the main characters from the graphic novel, through the first three episodes, we have had some level of introduction to three of the four living ones (Ozymandias, Doc Manhattan, Silk Spectre II but not Nite Owl II), and to the legacy left behind by the fifth (Rorshach, who is dead).

Ozymandias: He is a genius and a skilled athlete and entrepreneur who admired Alexander the Great. He created an elaborate scheme to trick the world into peace and killed most people who were involved with it. He has, through the first three episodes, been featured the most of the OG Watchmen characters in segments with clone/robot servants. It appears he has been imprisoned. We'll have to wait to find out by whom and for what.

Doctor Manhattan: We saw a brief summary of his origin in Ozy's play "The Watchmaker's Son."  Born Jon Osterman, he was a physicist who got into an accident and was transformed into a god-like being. He started dating Janey Slater, but then dumped her to start dating Silk Spectre II. Silk Spectre II in turn dumps Doctor Manhattan during the course of the novel. Ozy caused Janey and two other people frequently in contact with Doc to contract cancer, which led Doc to feel like he had no ties to humanity and go to Mars initially. He gets brought back to Earth through a conversation with Silk Spectre II, and helps investigate Ozymandias. But by the time they do, he's already executed his plot. Doc, Nite Owl II and SSII all agree that they can't expose what Ozy has done because that would undo the world peace it has achieved. Doc says at the end of the graphic novel that he was going to leave for another galaxy. So he has either returned or never left or divided himself between the two. Or something.   

Silk Spectre II: Born Laurie Jupiter, she is the daughter of the original Silk Spectre. She started superheroing in her teens. She grew up being stage managed by her mom and not knowing that her mom had been nearly sexually assaulted by another costumed hero, the Comedian, also known as Edward Blake. It further turned out that after the attempted rape, SSI and the Comedian had consensual sex that resulted in Laurie being born. Because she was dating Doctor Manhattan, she led a pretty lush life at first. (As for why the big blue dildo, it could be that Doc Manhattan grew to be that size during lovemaking from time to time or she just likes imagining him that way.) But eventually, she got tired of how inhuman and aloof he was. She began seeking out Nite Owl II for discussions about their old lives as heroes, and eventually things got romantic between them. In the aforementioned conversation with Doctor Manhattan, she realized the secret of her parentage and that helps convince Doctor Manhattan to get back in the mix of things. At the end of the graphic novel, she and Nite Owl II have adopted new fake identities and she is talking about adopting a new costumed identity with a full face mask and body armor like her father rather than the sexy but impractical stuff she had been wearing. In Ep. 3, we see she is going by the name Laurie Blake, using guns, telling jokes and being much more in line with her father.

Nite Owl II: We haven't seen much about him. Dan Dreiberg was a nerdy guy who, as Laurie says in her joke, had a talent for inventing things, including a flying airship and various outfits. As Nite Owl II, he had teamed up with Rorshach to fight crime before being a vigilante was illegal. Rorshach came to NO II after (unbeknownst to either) Ozy killed the Comedian after the Comedian inadvertently learned about Ozy's plot to fool the world into peace. Rorshach mistakenly thought it might be an attempt to kill costumed heroes. Eventually, NOII started to help with the investigation, and the two tracked things to Ozy. Through the first three episodes, we don't fully know what has become of NOII. We have only had a veiled promise from Sen. Keene that if he were to become president, he could get Laurie's owl out of his cage. So he is seemingly locked up somewhere. 

Rorshach: Rorshach was a right-wing, uncompromising hero who refused to quit when the anti-vigilante law was passed. At some point in his career,he went from being a more-or-less conventional hero to someone who had no qualms about killing and torturing suspects. He wrote about his investigation in a journal, and before he and NOII went to confront Ozy, he sent the journal to a right-wing publication called the New Frontiersman. Rorshach was the only one who was going to refuse to stay silent about Ozy's scheme, prompting Doctor Manhattan to murder him. The graphic novel ends with people at the New Frontiersman potentially picking up the journal, which would have in turn the possibility of undoing Ozy's scheme. From the background materials for the show, it appears that the journal was published, but that Ozy was able to discredit it as "fake news." In the time of the show, the 7th Calvary has adopted his mask, his philosophy and his journal as part of their belief system. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Chicago Redshirt

[Ubiquitous]

On 10/30/2019 at 1:07 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I believe in the first episode there was a clip where footage from Mars was shown in a news report about water there, and everyone's favorite blue nekkid guy was in it. 

Whether this was supposed to be current footage (showing that Doc is on Mars now), file footage (meaning, that as we know from the comics/movie he had been on Mars at some point but his current whereabouts are unknown) or what, who can say?

In the comics, Doc had said that he was going to travel to another galaxy and perhaps create human life there. Did he do that and return? Or never go? Or do both? (Since he can split himself into multiple bodies) I assume we will find out.

I am conflating the book and movie, but didn't Doctor Manhattan do the same in the movie, but only to continue the ruse? The clip in the first ep reminded me of the scene in both when his clockwork structure fell apart during his talk with Laurie.

[rmontro]

Just watched episode three, and Laura says Dr. Manhatten has been living on Mars for the past 30 years.  Now I'm wondering if maybe I'm not remembering correctly, or have the movie mixed up with the comic (which are almost the same, anyway).

Dr. Manhatten says he is going to another galaxy in the movie.  I thought he also said that in the comics, but now I wonder if he really said he was going back to Mars?  I really thought he said galaxy in the comics, but I'm not going to dig my comics out to look it up.  Anybody know for sure?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Ubiquitous said:

I am conflating the book and movie, but didn't Doctor Manhattan do the same in the movie, but only to continue the ruse? The clip in the first ep reminded me of the scene in both when his clockwork structure fell apart during his talk with Laurie.

Yes. Once again, laziness rears its ugly head. Pretty much everything from the graphic novel in terms of the basic, main plot made its way into the movie with the exception that the plot to fool humanity was changed from giant squid to rogue Doc Manhattan. So at least for me, when I refer to the comics, chances are I mean to refer to the movie as well. 

 

28 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Just watched episode three, and Laura says Dr. Manhatten has been living on Mars for the past 30 years.  Now I'm wondering if maybe I'm not remembering correctly, or have the movie mixed up with the comic (which are almost the same, anyway).

Dr. Manhatten says he is going to another galaxy in the movie.  I thought he also said that in the comics, but now I wonder if he really said he was going back to Mars?  I really thought he said galaxy in the comics, but I'm not going to dig my comics out to look it up.  Anybody know for sure?

In the comics (and I presume the movie), he tells Adrian that he is planning to go to another galaxy. "But I thought you regained interest in human life," Adrian says (or something similar). "Yes," Doc replies. "Perhaps I will create some."

It could be that he went there, came back and settled on Mars within a year. It could be that he split himself in two and had one portion of him go to Mars and one go to another galaxy. It could be that Laurie jumped to the wrong conclusion as to where Doc went originally. He (or at least part of him) appears to currently be on Mars, though. 

[Ubiquitous]

34 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It could be that he went there, came back and settled on Mars within a year. It could be that he split himself in two and had one portion of him go to Mars and one go to another galaxy. It could be that Laurie jumped to the wrong conclusion as to where Doc went originally. He (or at least part of him) appears to currently be on Mars, though. 

Something else occurred to me. Perhaps Adrian set up a hologram of Doctor Manhattan on Mars to keep everyone on Earth wonder what he is plotting to do next? 

[AimingforYoko]

I've read the comic, I've seen the movie, but I've been away from both for a while. Here's a question for the hardcores: Did we know Veidt was such a big reggae fan?

[Dev F]

30 minutes ago, AimingforYoko said:

I've read the comic, I've seen the movie, but I've been away from both for a while. Here's a question for the hardcores: Did we know Veidt was such a big reggae fan?

I think it's based on an interview with Adrian in the supplemental material for the original comic, in which he talks about how he's getting into Jamaican dub music. I wonder if it's meant to reflect Veidt's changed relationship with technology that his current tastes seem to run more to straight reggae than its electronic-music subgenre.

[arc]

Was there anything in the book about American or foreign attempts to recreate the Dr Manhattan accident and thus make their own superhuman? Or is that just fanon I absorbed somewhere?

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 11/13/2019 at 12:14 AM, arc said:

Was there anything in the book about American or foreign attempts to recreate the Dr Manhattan accident and thus make their own superhuman? Or is that just fanon I absorbed somewhere?

I don't recall something like that off the top of my head. It seems like it would be common sense to try, and when the tv show mentioned that Russia was futzing around in the area, I was like, "What took them so long?"

I may double-check in a bit.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Is it 7th Kavalry or 7th Kalvary? Wikipedia has the former but this article from Slate uses both spellings. Was Slate just lax on its editing because "cavalry" and "calvary" aren't interchangeable AFAIK.

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Is it 7th Kavalry or 7th Kalvary? Wikipedia has the former but this article from Slate uses both spellings. Was Slate just lax on its editing because "cavalry" and "calvary" aren't interchangeable AFAIK.

On this HBO website it is The Seventh Kavalry.

https://www.hbo.com/watchmen/season-1

[Giuseppe]

@Chicago Redshirt, you have helped me understand so much of what is happening now. Thank you. I don't (didn't) know anything about Watchmen before hearing about this series. I remember attempting to watch the 2009 movie, but being so bored that I fell asleep. When I started hearing about/seeing trailers for the HBO series, I didn't see how it related to the movie and maybe would have not bothered with it , but it did look cool, PLUS much of the scenes were filmed literally across the street from my condo. I saw a lot of the filming (well, the set-up for the filming) and now I know what that little blue capsule that was on the plaza in front of my favorite bar was supposed to be, haha.

Anyway, I do still have a question. Was Rorshach racist? I originally somehow thought the 7th Kavalry was a group of racists, but now I can't remember what gave me that impression...maybe it's kind of the parallel imagery between them and the KKK? I'm only on episode 5, and being pretty utterly confused until now, I maybe misinterpreted their whole thing and they're more just cop killers/attackers?

Also, who is Lady Trieu (sp)? Is she new to this series, or was she in the graphic novel at all? Seems too young to be part of the comic, so I'm assuming she's new, but people's reactions to her made me think her character was previously known.

I'm going to have to go back and re-watch the first three eps again now that I understand better the jump-off for this show. Even being confused, I'm freakin loving it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 12/27/2019 at 3:56 PM, Giuseppe said:

@Chicago Redshirt, you have helped me understand so much of what is happening now. Thank you. I don't (didn't) know anything about Watchmen before hearing about this series. I remember attempting to watch the 2009 movie, but being so bored that I fell asleep. When I started hearing about/seeing trailers for the HBO series, I didn't see how it related to the movie and maybe would have not bothered with it , but it did look cool, PLUS much of the scenes were filmed literally across the street from my condo. I saw a lot of the filming (well, the set-up for the filming) and now I know what that little blue capsule that was on the plaza in front of my favorite bar was supposed to be, haha.

Anyway, I do still have a question. Was Rorshach racist? I originally somehow thought the 7th Kavalry was a group of racists, but now I can't remember what gave me that impression...maybe it's kind of the parallel imagery between them and the KKK? I'm only on episode 5, and being pretty utterly confused until now, I maybe misinterpreted their whole thing and they're more just cop killers/attackers?

Also, who is Lady Trieu (sp)? Is she new to this series, or was she in the graphic novel at all? Seems too young to be part of the comic, so I'm assuming she's new, but people's reactions to her made me think her character was previously known.

I'm going to have to go back and re-watch the first three eps again now that I understand better the jump-off for this show. Even being confused, I'm freakin loving it.

You're welcome!

As to your question, I don't know if there is an easy categorical answer as to whether Rorshach was racist.

On the one hand, he was an admirer and regular reader of the right-wing publication the New Frontiersman, which was pretty unabashedly racist.

On the other hand, Rorshach never shows much in the way of direct evidence of racism in his own journal or his actions in the graphic novel. There's stuff you can point to show he's a misogynist (for instance, his interactions with Laurie Blake, his woman landlord or his mommy issues) or a possible homophobe (he muses in his journal that Adrian Veidt might be a homosexual and notes that he should investigate further). But I personally don't think there is a real equivalent of Rorshach for race. His psychiatrist is one of the few people of color in the graphic novel with lines and agency. Rorshach has contempt for him, but it is not (on the surface, anyway) based on his being black. Rather, it's based on the psychiatrist focusing on Rorshach's case (rather than any number of inmates whose behavior is more extreme than his) because the psychiatrist wants to become famous on treating Rorschach. 

On the other, other hand, part of Rorshach's issue with his landlord is that she has multiple kids by multiple fathers, and it's apparent that she's white and at least some of her kids are minority. And could contempt on race be subtext to his thinking about her, the psychiatrist, people in general being parasites?

On the other, other, other hand, Rorshach (and all the main characters from OG Watchmen) are patterned after characters from Charlton Comics. In Rorshach's case, he was patterned after the Question, who was created by Steve Ditko (most famously co-creator of Spider-Man with Stan Lee.) By the time Ditko created the Question, he was heavily involved in Objectivist philosophy. The TLDR version of objectivism is that we should rise and fall as individuals pursuing our self-interest, and any philosophy focusing on collective thought is evil. Rorshach follows that in broad strokes as well. So the notion of being a racist is incompatible with that philosophy, because it reduces individuals into groups by color.

In the show, the 7th Kalvary are, however, traditional racists who have co-opted Rorshach's mask and his journal for their own.

Lady Trieu is an original character for the TV show. I'll avoid saying more here to avoid having you spoiled.

[CigarDoug]

On 11/4/2019 at 2:05 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

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Because she was dating Doctor Manhattan, she led a pretty lush life at first. (As for why the big blue dildo, it could be that Doc Manhattan grew to be that size during lovemaking from time to time or she just likes imagining him that way.) 

Once she went blue... she never withdrew.