Designing Women - General Discussion

[Bastet]

I wonder if season six would have been better if they'd come up with B.J. initially rather than wasting a season on Allison.  Season five had already suffered from Linda's reduced attention (she was focusing on Evening Shade), so the writing was already different, and then you take away two of the four women and inevitably there will be another significant drop-off in quality, so season six was never going to be good.  But it didn't have to be as bad as it was by bringing in such a horrible character.  What was the point of taking a show that had for five years been about watching women who love and respect each other enjoy each other's company and figure out how to reconcile things when they disagree and introducing a horrible antagonist, thus completely altering the dynamic beyond what was already inevitable?

Thank goodness Linda wrote the episode about the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings; that was old-school DW.  Carlene's Apartment is fairly funny, and Mary Jo and Julia are hilarious when they're stuck under the bed in another episode.

But, otherwise, bleh.  And now everyone is singing and dancing all the time, not just Julia.  One episode is basically a production of Mame.  WTF?!

Also, since I don't have the DVDs of the last two seasons to check, was there an explanation of why Charlene and Bill never returned from England included and that's one of the things cut in this syndicated version Prime is airing, or did they really just never address it? 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Bastet

[lurkerbee]

On 8/1/2023 at 2:51 PM, Bastet said:

I expect it in syndication.  I do not expect a paid streaming service to use a cut version, or skip episodes.  Amazon has plenty of money to buy the full rights to the original series.

It’s been on Hulu for years. I’m usually doing other things while I have it on so can’t say 100% either way I but haven’t noticed any strange syndication cuts.

[Bastet]

14 minutes ago, lurkerbee said:

It’s been on Hulu for years. I’m usually doing other things while I have it on so can’t say 100% either way I but haven’t noticed any strange syndication cuts.

When Hulu first made it available, several posters noted they were edited episodes, not the originals uncut.

[JAYJAY1979]

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

I wonder if season six would have been better if they'd come up with B.J. initially rather than wasting a season on Allison.  Season five had already suffered from Linda's reduced attention (she was focusing on Evening Shade), so the writing was already different, and then you take away two of the four women and inevitably there will be another significant drop-off in quality, so season six was never going to be good.  But it didn't have to be as bad as it was by bringing in such a horrible character.  What was the point of taking a show that had for five years been about watching women who love and respect each other enjoy each other's company and figure out how to reconcile things when they disagree and introducing a horrible antagonist?

Thank goodness Linda wrote the episode about the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings; that was old-school DW.  Carlene's Apartment is fairly funny, and Mary Jo and Julia are hilarious when they're stuck under the bed.

But, otherwise, bleh.  And now everyone is singing and dancing all the time, not just Julia.  One episode is basically a production of Mame.  WTF?!

Also, since I don't have the DVDs of the last two seasons to check, was there an explanation of why Charlene and Bill never returned from England included and that's one of the things cut in this syndicated version Prime is airing, or did they really just never address it? 

Season 6 would have been better if only 1 of the 2 main characters left...not both.

I think Suzanne and Carlene would have been a good tag team. Carlene and Anthony were a good pairing...so all three could have been a fun trio.

Could you imagine Suzanne taking Carlene under her wing..she and Mary Jo could have been like the devil and angel on each shoulder.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

Season 6 would have been better if only 1 of the 2 main characters left...not both.

Yes, of course.  But, within the reality that two were gone, I just wonder if season six could have been less jarringly bad with a different character than Allison.  B.J. fit in a little better.

[JAYJAY1979]

14 hours ago, Bastet said:

Yes, of course.  But, within the reality that two were gone, I just wonder if season six could have been less jarringly bad with a different character than Allison.  B.J. fit in a little better.

My late mom used to say back when the dreadful 7th season was on..that BJ should have been introduced in season 6 when the quality of the show was still good..and the show would have thrived.

She had the eccentricity and over the top vibe of Suzanne..but had a sharp tongue like Julia.  BJ and Julia played off one another beautifully where she would jokingly burst Julia's liberal tirades in a playful way.  

 

[Taryn74]

I had to laugh watching How Great Thou Art last night, they kept talking up this huge interfaith meeting with all these churches represented and a big closing ceremony that was probably going to be on the news........and then they showed scenes of the tiny little church with maybe 75 people there. LOL.

[Bastet]

19 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I had to laugh watching How Great Thou Art last night, they kept talking up this huge interfaith meeting with all these churches represented and a big closing ceremony that was probably going to be on the news........and then they showed scenes of the tiny little church with maybe 75 people there. LOL.

I'm impressed you can get through it.  I want to, because Jean Smart absolutely nails Charlene's face when she hears Julia sing, but that is decidedly not what my face looks like when Dixie Carter sings (especially when she's singing the same four words for what feels like an hour), so I usually have to tune out early.

Good point, though; I'm always so distracted by the singing, I forget that was supposed to be the closing ceremony of the convention.  With the entire Atlanta Philharmonic, no less.

[qtpye]

18 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I'm impressed you can get through it.  I want to, because Jean Smart absolutely nails Charlene's face when she hears Julia sing, but that is decidedly not what my face looks like when Dixie Carter sings (especially when she's singing the same four words for what feels like an hour), so I usually have to tune out early.

Good point, though; I'm always so distracted by the singing, I forget that was supposed to be the closing ceremony of the convention.  With the entire Atlanta Philharmonic, no less.

Dixie Carter was so talented in so many ways but who told that woman that she could sing?  I only liked Sweet Georgia Brown and that was because of the saucy attitude.

 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

that is decidedly not what my face looks like when Dixie Carter sings

LOL. I don't mind her singing. It's not really my style but it doesn't bother me. Maybe because it's what I grew up with, idk.

[Taryn74]

Reservations for Eight tonight. Reese, upon being told that the fleet of small suitcases he was having to bring in were Suzanne's cosmetic cases: "My word, nobody's that ugly!" 😂 😂 😂

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

Reese, upon being told that the fleet of small suitcases he was having to bring in were Suzanne's cosmetic cases: "My word, nobody's that ugly!"

That trio was so perfectly played, that Reese made fun of Suzanne (who wouldn't, let alone the boyfriend of her sister, but that can go very wrong?) yet regarded her with affection.  As I've posted before, my favorite is when Reese is recovering from his heart attack, and Julia is in full hovering nurse mode, asking Suzanne if Reese looks pale to her.  Suzanne says no, he looks "cute; kind of tousled and sexy" and Reese says, "I am obviously messing around with the wrong Sugarbaker sister."  It gets even better when Julia is embarrassed that he says in front of Suzanne the bottom half of him is still operational, too, just in case she's ever again interested, and he shrugs it off, saying, "Oh, horse feathers, Suzanne knows all about the bottom half of men."

[annzeepark914]

Hal Holbrook was a great actor, moving so easily between drama & comedy. I just thought of him as Deep Throat, partially seen in the darkness of an underground garage, softly telling Redford (as Woodward) to "Follow the money".  I loved every scene he was in, playing Reese.

[bluegirl147]

On 8/1/2023 at 8:15 PM, Bastet said:

And, OMG, Jean Smart just slays it (as usual) when Charlene recounts her disastrous meeting.  "There I was, on my hands and knees, wet, sobbing, mascara running down my face, my pantyhose twisted, trying to gather up all these little white fire crackers, you know?  Two of the secretaries had to lift me off the floor and help to my car.  Or maybe they were throwing me out, I don't know; I never looked back."

Just reading that made me literally LOL. When I watch that scene I laugh till I cry.

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, annzeepark914 said:

I loved every scene he was in, playing Reese.

Of all the SO's, I really think Reese is my favorite. He's IMO the perfect mate - smart, funny, affectionate, confident but not arrogant, and not afraid to call out the BS when needed. I adore him.

9 hours ago, Bastet said:

Suzanne says no, he looks "cute; kind of tousled and sexy" and Reese says, "I am obviously messing around with the wrong Sugarbaker sister." 

😂 The episode where he takes the young law intern to the charity gala, and Julia retaliates by hiring an escort for the evening, is also golden. "I'll just have them bring over a highchair for your date." 🤣

[bluegirl147]

1 hour ago, annzeepark914 said:

Hal Holbrook was a great actor, moving so easily between drama & comedy. I just thought of him as Deep Throat, partially seen in the darkness of an underground garage, softly telling Redford (as Woodward) to "Follow the money".  I loved every scene he was in, playing Reese.

I have always had a soft spot for Holbrook.  Whether he played a good guy or a bad guy he was simply great. I do remember him as Deep Throat.  Also one of partners in the law firm doing bad things in The Firm.  

[Giuseppe]

12 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

"My word, nobody's that ugly!" 

For years, I have been waiting for an opportunity to present itself where I can use this line. Alas, hasn't happened yet! I almost said it to my sister-in-law once, but she doesn't have much of a sense of humor, so I figured it wasn't a good idea, lol

Edited August 7, 2023 by Giuseppe

[Bastet]

I had completely forgotten Anthony's storyline where he drunkenly marries a showgirl and then stupidly decides to remain married to her.  Good grief.  They've given him the strangest dating life lately.  Season six ends with him announcing he's engaged to a potential client he's only known for two weeks -- another Vanessa, played by Jackée Harry, who starts talking about all the changes she's going to make once she co-owns Anthony's share of the business.  Then season seven starts, and there's no appearance or even mention of Vanessa.

Finally in episode seven, we hear of her again, when she breaks up with Anthony over the phone.  So off they all go to Vegas, he gets married, has Julia get annulment paperwork drawn up for him, but Etienne has her bags all packed to move to Atlanta with this stranger, so he decides to stay married because she wants to.  WTactualF?  Back home, he realizes this is the biggest mistake of his life, especially once she wants him to impregnate her that very minute, then once again changes his mind.

But, other than Etienne, seven isn't a terrible season so far.  Not good, but not terrible.  Definitely better than six.  The season premiere Linda wrote, introducing B.J., is a good episode, and "Mary Jo vs. The Terminator" is pretty good, too.  Nothing like the old days, of course, but it couldn't be.

[annzeepark914]

Good God almighty! I'm glad I stopped watching before the show added new characters. What a bizarre storyline. It sounds like they were creating stories for him on the fly. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by annzeepark914

[Bastet]

Season six was even worse for romantic relationship storylines, especially Julia.  They had her dating a guy she subconsciously (and erroneously) thinks is gay (so he's safe, because she's not actually ready following Reese's death), going out on a date with Rusty (the electrician whose pants are always hanging down) as a birthday present, then later having this bizarre one-episode infatuation with a weirdo doctor (referenced in a later episode as having been seen canoodling with a younger woman, so that's the end of that).

Then there was that oh-so-tired storyline where Mary Jo decides she wants a baby so goes to a sperm bank.

But there was one more (in addition to the Clarence & Anita and Carlene's apartment episodes) good one in season six, one where Anthony is racially profiled at the mall (he's window shopping, but the store owner thinks he's casing the joint, so calls security, who treat him like a robber).  Sadly used to this, he just wants to move on, but Julia rallies the gang for a sit-in to protest after the head of the security department won't apologize.  It makes the news, and of course they use Anthony's mugshot and refer to him only as an ex-convict, no mention of being a law student and local businessman.  He tells Julia she will never know what it is to be a Black man, so when he tells her how he wants to handle racist incidents, she needs to butt out.  It was a nice illustration of racial profiling and white privilege that certainly wasn't common on TV back then.

Thus far, season seven hasn't had any episodes as good as those, it's just that its typical episodes are okay, while six's typical episodes were bad.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Bastet

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, Giuseppe said:

For years, I have been waiting for an opportunity to present itself where I can use this line. Alas, hasn't happened yet! I almost said it to my sister-in-law once, but she doesn't have much of a sense of humor, so I figured it wasn't a good idea, lol

Be careful of referring to this show around people who do not know it.

When I recite the real reason the lights went out in Georgia, I get quite a few looks.

[Bastet]

10 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Be careful of referring to this show around people who do not know it.

I like to say "Some white girl" when someone asks who did something, to see if anyone picks up on it.  It's happened a few times over the years.

[Taryn74]

The episode where Mary Jo had to go to the school to deal with Quinton cussing reminded me of when my youngest son was in first grade. He had dealt with a really difficult teacher all year (she pretty much hated my oldest son, so when she had my youngest four years later she treated him the same even though their personalities were polar opposites) and I guess one day he had finally had it. Hubby and I were out grocery shopping and the school called. Teacher had gotten onto my son for something and he threw his schoolpapers down and said "F--k this!" THANK GOD they called hubby's phone and not mine because I was bent over double laughing so hard I was crying. 🤣 🤣🤣 (I honestly don't have any idea where he even heard that word, btw. LOL. On the schoolbus I guess.)

[Giuseppe]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I like to say "Some white girl" when someone asks who did something

I DID use this one on my mom some time ago...she didn't like my haircut and asked who did that to me. I told her "I don't know, some white girl". She didn't get it 😄 That remains one of my favorite exchanges of the entire series.

[Egg McMuffin]

It’s kind of amazing to me watching the first few episodes of season six that someone didn’t say, “Hey - this is NOT working. We need to regroup and figure this out.” I think they hired Julia Duffy, who was considered a “get,” before they came up with a character for her. And losing Jean Smart was arguably worse than losing Delta Burke.

Allison had no redeeming qualities. She could have been at least a clever foil for Julia. But instead they turned her into this person everyone hated and was pathetic. Gee, wonder why that didn’t work?

[janeyjay]

15 hours ago, Bastet said:

I like to say "Some white girl" when someone asks who did something, to see if anyone picks up on it.  It's happened a few times over the years.

Well played, Cindy Birdsong. 

"La Place sans Souci" was on Antenna TV last night. I recorded it on the DVR simply to watch and rewatch Suzanne share her "personal exercise regime" to the tune of "St. Louis Blues." 

[Bastet]

I finished the series, and, wow, I spoke too soon about season seven not having terrible episodes like season six did; there's a stretch near the end that is just awful.  The finale with all the Gone With the Wind fantasies is not my thing, but I do love Anthony's.  And with the core four broken up, I rather like the last shot being of Anthony carrying Bernice up a grand staircase as she sings her "Black man, Black man" song.

It's interesting that B.J., not Julia or Mary Jo, was the one to argue how sexist that movie is.  Julia was as bad as Charlene usually was, carrying on with romanticizing the film even after Anthony pointed out the racism.

Oh, well.  I'm glad I finally got a chance to see those seasons again.  I just don't need to ever repeat the experience.

[annzeepark914]

4 hours ago, janeyjay said:

Well played, Cindy Birdsong. 

"La Place sans Souci" was on Antenna TV last night. I recorded it on the DVR simply to watch and rewatch Suzanne share her "personal exercise regime" to the tune of "St. Louis Blues." 

Now I'm gonna hear Suzanne doing her St Louis Blues routine with all her verbal "percussions" all night long 😁

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Now I'm gonna hear Suzanne doing her St Louis Blues routine with all her verbal "percussions" all night long 😁

What episode has Suzanne doing St. Louis Blues?

[Bastet]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

What episode has Suzanne doing St. Louis Blues?

"La Place sans Souci".  Or, as she calls it, La Place San Sucky.  The exercise instructor asks her to demonstrate her usual fitness routine, and it's twirling her baton to "St. Louis Blues".  Except she doesn't have her baton or her music with her, so she has to mime the baton and hum the song.  It's a sight to behold.

[shapeshifter]

38 minutes ago, Bastet said:

"La Place sans Souci".  Or, as she calls it, La Place San Sucky.  The exercise instructor asks her to demonstrate her usual fitness routine, and it's twirling her baton to "St. Louis Blues".  Except she doesn't have her baton or her music with her, so she has to mime the baton and hum the song.  It's a sight to behold.

Okay. I just watched "La Place sans Souci" for my first time. 
The tune Suzanne was “humming” wasn’t supposed to sound anything like “St. Louis Blues,” was it?  
I wish it did.

And are there really spas where they provide outfits like that to wear into mud baths? Or was that just for prime time TV modesty requirements, or maybe because the show mostly avoids gratuitous shots of women’s bodies?

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Oh, well.  I'm glad I finally got a chance to see those seasons again.  I just don't need to ever repeat the experience.

I've been waffling on whether I want to watch the final two seasons or not. I'm really leaning toward not. I doubt I've seen all the episodes in them, but the bits and pieces I do remember just really do not make me want to watch them again. Like, ever.

[ljenkins782]

On 8/7/2023 at 4:14 PM, Bastet said:

But there was one more (in addition to the Clarence & Anita and Carlene's apartment episodes) good one in season six, one where Anthony is racially profiled at the mall (he's window shopping, but the store owner thinks he's casing the joint, so calls security, who treat him like a robber).  Sadly used to this, he just wants to move on, but Julia rallies the gang for a sit-in to protest after the head of the security department won't apologize.  It makes the news, and of course they use Anthony's mugshot and refer to him only as an ex-convict, no mention of being a law student and local businessman.  He tells Julia she will never know what it is to be a Black man, so when he tells her how he wants to handle racist incidents, she needs to butt out.  It was a nice illustration of racial profiling and white privilege that certainly wasn't common on TV back then.

Pork chops, pork chops, greasy, greasy, we can beat prejudice, easy, easy.

I haven't seen that episode in 20 years or so, but I can pull that chant right out of the air. Can't remember what I did yesterday, but dumb shit like that always comes right back, lol.

Quote

It's interesting that B.J., not Julia or Mary Jo, was the one to argue how sexist that movie is.  Julia was as bad as Charlene usually was, carrying on with romanticizing the film even after Anthony pointed out the racism.

I don't think I ever watched the episode, but that sounds so stupid and out of character for Julia. It would be 100% in character for Charlene, but not Julia.

Quote

That trio was so perfectly played, that Reese made fun of Suzanne (who wouldn't, let alone the boyfriend of her sister, but that can go very wrong?) yet regarded her with affection.  As I've posted before, my favorite is when Reese is recovering from his heart attack, and Julia is in full hovering nurse mode, asking Suzanne if Reese looks pale to her.  Suzanne says no, he looks "cute; kind of tousled and sexy" and Reese says, "I am obviously messing around with the wrong Sugarbaker sister."  It gets even better when Julia is embarrassed that he says in front of Suzanne the bottom half of him is still operational, too, just in case she's ever again interested, and he shrugs it off, saying, "Oh, horse feathers, Suzanne knows all about the bottom half of men."

I love that scene too, Suzanne popping grapes into her mouth saying "well, I don't like to brag" in response to Reese's comment about the bottom half of men. 

Reese was a great secondary cast member and between him, JD, and Dash, this show had a great collection of voices. I always loved Reese's gravelly drawl.

[annzeepark914]

I loved JD. Was his last scene on the show (as Mary Jo's ex-boyfriend) when he told her she didn't have to keep inviting him on these trips (after an encounter with Daddy and sons)? There was something so boyish and sweet about him. Wait...there was another trip (Florida) & I think he was on that one too. Never mind 😊

[Taryn74]

I'd forgotten how jarring it could be to binge watch one of these old shows and move into a new season without realizing it. Went from Charlene and Bill getting married to her being several months' pregnant within what felt like just a couple of episodes. LOL.

I don't see the episode One Night With You mentioned very often, but to me it's up there with some of the funniest episodes of the entire series. The dawning realization on Suzanne's face when the guy says he thought her name was Julia is absolutely golden. The glee in her voice when she says, "Is it my sister, Julia Sugarbaker, that Mr. Stillman wants to spend the night with?" leaves me howling. And then later when Mary Jo asks Julia what Reese thinks about all this -- "He said we're all dying." I could just hear Reese saying that. 😂😂😂

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

I loved JD. Was his last scene on the show (as Mary Jo's ex-boyfriend) when he told her she didn't have to keep inviting him on these trips (after an encounter with Daddy and sons)? There was something so boyish and sweet about him. Wait...there was another trip (Florida) & I think he was on that one too. Never mind 😊

No, Florida was the Ursula trip when they were still together (beginning of season three).  "Nightmare from Hee-Haw" is in season four. 

His last appearance is in season five, "Maybe Baby", when Mary Jo wants a baby (not to be confused with the season six episode where they repeat that storyline and she's successfully inseminated but has a miscarriage); it's also the one where Suzanne takes up smoking, until she sets her wig on fire ("I'll take a hundred chances with my lungs, but you only get one chance with my wig").  He pops in unexpectedly because he's in town on business, and she takes that as a sign and asks him to be the sperm donor.   There's some funny stuff when he thinks she wants to have sex.  Ultimately, he declines and they kind of get into it, but he comes by the next day on his way to the airport and gives her a biological watch she'd been talking about, so they part friendly.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Bastet

[annzeepark914]

46 minutes ago, Bastet said:

"I'll take a hundred chances with my lungs, but you only get one chance with my wig".  I sure do miss dialogue like this.

 

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I'd forgotten how jarring it could be to binge watch one of these old shows and move into a new season without realizing it. Went from Charlene and Bill getting married to her being several months' pregnant within what felt like just a couple of episodes. LOL.

Weird; I didn't see this post when I was in the thread earlier.

I love in her baby shower episode when she says everyone who hasn't seen her since the wedding has the same reaction.  "I've never in my life seen so many people mentally counting to nine."

I know I've mentioned this before, but to repeat a bit of trivia:  Jean Smart found out she was pregnant while filming the wedding episode.  So she thought, "Well, they married her off just in time."

[Rabbit Hutch]

B.J. added so much to the show.  If only she had taken over for Suzanne from the get-go the show would've been much better.  Her personality was as big as her hair, and I loved her to death.

Carlene, OTOH, was awful.  That character made the show come to a screeching halt every time she uttered a line.  Jan Hooks, the actress who played her, was great, and I quite liked her.  But the character was a caricature.  So disappointed in Linda Thomason with that one.

[Taryn74]

Man.....I'm only halfway through Season 4 and the writing is starting to tank already. This is upsetting. There are some really fantastic episodes (The Rowdy Girls being one example) and some that are just a slog to get through a 20 minute episode (The Girlfriend, Julia and Suzanne's Big Adventure, Manhunt). Everybody except Charlene and Anthony is starting to become a caricature, which upsets me the most. I don't want these characters to lose their charm, but the shine is wearing off QUICKLY. I'm not even sure I want to finish this season, much less the rest of the show. 😕

[Taryn74]

"I have better things to do with my time than sitting around waiting for some concubine to fall out of bed."

Suzanne's one-liners are the best. 🤣🤣🤣

[ljenkins782]

On 8/17/2023 at 6:10 PM, Taryn74 said:

Man.....I'm only halfway through Season 4 and the writing is starting to tank already. This is upsetting. There are some really fantastic episodes (The Rowdy Girls being one example) and some that are just a slog to get through a 20 minute episode (The Girlfriend, Julia and Suzanne's Big Adventure, Manhunt). Everybody except Charlene and Anthony is starting to become a caricature, which upsets me the most. I don't want these characters to lose their charm, but the shine is wearing off QUICKLY. I'm not even sure I want to finish this season, much less the rest of the show. 😕

I feel like Charlene got a bit more caricature-ish toward the end of her time on the show. Particularly the "What is Art?" episode, that is a low point for the Charlene character, she was a flat out idiot for the entire episode. 

I agree that The Girlfriend kinda sucks as an episode, but I enjoyed Julia and Suzanne's Big Adventure and Manhunt. 

I was never a fan of Vanessa, she had an occasional funny moment, but most of the time the character was over the top and there was something slightly uncomfortable about the way the women treated her, like she was some kind of mascot or something.

Quote

 

It’s kind of amazing to me watching the first few episodes of season six that someone didn’t say, “Hey - this is NOT working. We need to regroup and figure this out.” I think they hired Julia Duffy, who was considered a “get,” before they came up with a character for her. And losing Jean Smart was arguably worse than losing Delta Burke.

Allison had no redeeming qualities. She could have been at least a clever foil for Julia. But instead they turned her into this person everyone hated and was pathetic. Gee, wonder why that didn’t work?

 

Yeah, record scratch quality Allison introduced to the show was palpable from the first minute. There was just nothing there but unpleasantness. Humorless unpleasantness, which is the bigger crime in a sitcom. 

There have been characters who are unrepentantly unpleasant, but if they're funny about it, it's palatable. Roy from Wings is a good example, they never gave him a heart or a redeeming moment as a person, but as an antagonist to the others, he was funny enough that didn't matter. 

So the bad writing on top of an unpleasant character AND zero chemistry with the cast, that character was just a misfire all around.

[Taryn74]

2 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

I feel like Charlene got a bit more caricature-ish toward the end of her time on the show. Particularly the "What is Art?" episode, that is a low point for the Charlene character, she was a flat out idiot for the entire episode. 

I haven't gotten there yet. I finished S4 and am cautiously moving through S5 now. Mostly it's still okay but I am finding myself more and more irritated with the characters, which truly makes me sad as I want to remember them all fondly after I rewatch. The last thing I want is to just borderline hate them all, you know? I honestly wanted to reach through the screen and slap the snot out of Mary Jo in the episode where Charlene quit working (which quickly moved to working part time, I guess?) to stay home with Olivia. Mary Jo's quips about Charlene not doing anything all day were flat out nasty and uncalled for.

[Not4Me]

I rewatched some of season 6 with Alison before turning it off after a few episodes. She really was caustic from the start, from trying to evict Anthony to trying to overtake Sugarbaker’s. If Suzanne had remained there’s no way she would let her get away with any of her behavior. Losing Suzanne and Charlene was bad enough but Alison really destroyed the bonding dynamic the ladies once had with each other and ruined the stories. Julia and Mary Jo also somehow became buffoonish caricatures by that point. And Bernice was just irritating instead of amusing.

I pretend the show ended after Season 5.

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

I enjoyed Julia and Suzanne's Big Adventure and Manhunt. 

I love Julia getting everyone's names so they can be punished, and my favorite is when Suzanne is grumbling about them being stuck in coach because first class is sold out and wonders where their seats are; Julia says, "If history is any indication, mine will be next to a baby who smokes."

4 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I honestly wanted to reach through the screen and slap the snot out of Mary Jo in the episode where Charlene quit working (which quickly moved to working part time, I guess?) to stay home with Olivia. Mary Jo's quips about Charlene not doing anything all day were flat out nasty and uncalled for.

I love their big argument, especially when Mary Jo says she doesn't have a husband, so not working isn't an option for her; it's so raw and ugly.  And I love when they apologize (and laugh when Charlene admits she was watching the soap opera), and talk about their insecurities as mothers and how terrible it is that women with children are encouraged to turn on each other based on whether they have jobs or not.

[ljenkins782]

55 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I love their big argument, especially when Mary Jo says she doesn't have a husband, so not working isn't an option for her; it's so raw and ugly.  And I love when they apologize (and laugh when Charlene admits she was watching the soap opera), and talk about their insecurities as mothers and how terrible it is that women with children are encouraged to turn on each other based on whether they have jobs or not.

I liked that argument too, it was very well-written and acted. It really is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, some people will judge mothers for not working and others will judge them for working. 

And their friendship had lasted through so many life changes, Mary Jo was the married one at first, then they were both single, then Charlene got married and had a baby so fast, then quit work. That's a lot of change in a short period of time and it can be weird when your friendships have to change based on what's going on each person's life, especially when you're the one who's kinda left behind (like Mary Jo's life wasn't changing, but Charlene's was and it opened up new options that Mary Jo didn't have). 

[Bastet]

5 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

That's a lot of change in a short period of time and it can be weird when your friendships have to change based on what's going on each person's life, especially when you're the one who's kinda left behind (like Mary Jo's life wasn't changing, but Charlene's was and it opened up new options that Mary Jo didn't have).

Yep, and add in how insecure Mary Jo was feeling about her parenting abilities due to Quint's behavior, you can see how she could pick at her, and Charlene respond in kind, despite their love for each other.

Mary Jo is on edge because everyone assumes Randa Oliver is a holy terror because of her mother, instead of saying parents, or offering up any other reasons.  Then she tells them what Quint did, and how his friend's mother said maybe it wouldn't have happened had she been home, instead of working.  Intellectually, she knows that snotty woman is wrong, but emotionally it can be hard to deflect.

Minutes later, Charlene finds out she missed Olivia's first step and announces she's going to take a year off and as part of her reasoning again blames Mrs. Oliver never being home for Randa's behavior.

Mary Jo figures she'll find out being home full-time is not the life for her and want to come back, only to have Charlene breeze in happy as a clam.  She goes into full denial mode, and it does not go at all well when they go over to beg Charlene to come back. 

I think the initial joke about interrupting her soap is fine (which is why I like Charlene later admitting she was watching), but once Charlene starts honestly talking to her about feeling used by the working mothers in the neighborhood and says she has stress, too, Mary Jo should have never responded by saying yeah, deciding between Oprah and Dr. Phil is just hell.  Charlene has the grace to tell her she knows Mary Jo doesn't mean to, but she's hurting her feelings with these jokes, and she doubles down, asking Charlene if she's lost her sense of humor since she quit working, which results in that ugly fight I love so much:

Mary Jo, I am working.

I know that.  You know what I mean.

What if I joked with you like that?

Like what?

Like, "If you hadn't been working, maybe Quint wouldn't be in trouble."  Mary Jo, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that.

Obviously, you've wanted to say it for a long time.

I didn't mean it.

I'm really glad you got it out.  Obviously, my kids won't take Children of the Year and I am probably to blame.  I don't have a rich husband, or even a husband.  My work's not a hobby I can drop or pick up.

Now I'm a rich old frump, is that it?

(Julia comes back in and asks what's going on.)

You're leaving.

Fine with me; I have to earn a living.

As much as I love the fight, I love even more when Mary Jo goes over to apologize.  I like when she says it's so hard; whatever choice a mother makes, she feels guilty about it because she thinks everyone in the world is judging her whether they actually are or not, and Charlene says, yeah, she and Bill were at a party and when a woman she just met asked her what she did, she overreacted with, "I work within the home.  You think running a house is easy?  It's the most important work you can do!"

And when Mary Jo says there will always be some who think stay-at-home moms are lazy or dumb and working moms are selfish yuppies, but they can't worry about those people, and moms have to keep from turning on each other.

[qtpye]

20 hours ago, Not4Me said:

I rewatched some of season 6 with Alison before turning it off after a few episodes. She really was caustic from the start, from trying to evict Anthony to trying to overtake Sugarbaker’s. If Suzanne had remained there’s no way she would let her get away with any of her behavior. Losing Suzanne and Charlene was bad enough but Alison really destroyed the bonding dynamic the ladies once had with each other and ruined the stories. Julia and Mary Jo also somehow became buffoonish caricatures by that point. And Bernice was just irritating instead of amusing.

I pretend the show ended after Season 5.

The original four ladies had a type of chemistry that was almost lightning in a bottle.

I grew up in Atlanta and thought the original four felt very authentic and real. I loved Jean Smart's accent even though it is not the way she talks in real life.

The chemistry of the core group made the more eccentric characters, like Bernice, enjoyable.

Jan Hooks might have worked but in the beginning she felt like bargain basement Charlene.

17 hours ago, Bastet said:

Yep, and add in how insecure Mary Jo was feeling about her parenting abilities due to Quint's behavior, you can see how she could pick at her, and Charlene respond in kind, despite their love for each other.

Mary Jo is on edge because everyone assumes Randa Oliver is a holy terror because of her mother, instead of saying parents, or offering up any other reasons.  Then she tells them what Quint did, and how his friend's mother said maybe it wouldn't have happened had she been home, instead of working.  Intellectually, she knows that snotty woman is wrong, but emotionally it can be hard to deflect.

Minutes later, Charlene finds out she missed Olivia's first step and announces she's going to take a year off and as part of her reasoning again blames Mrs. Oliver never being home for Randa's behavior.

Mary Jo figures she'll find out being home full-time is not the life for her and want to come back, only to have Charlene breeze in happy as a clam.  She goes into full denial mode, and it does not go at all well when they go over to beg Charlene to come back. 

I think the initial joke about interrupting her soap is fine (which is why I like Charlene later admitting she was watching), but once Charlene starts honestly talking to her about feeling used by the working mothers in the neighborhood and says she has stress, too, Mary Jo should have never responded by saying yeah, deciding between Oprah and Dr. Phil is just hell.  Charlene has the grace to tell her she knows Mary Jo doesn't mean to, but she's hurting her feelings with these jokes, and she doubles down, asking Charlene if she's lost her sense of humor since she quit working, which results in that ugly fight I love so much:

Mary Jo, I am working.

I know that.  You know what I mean.

What if I joked with you like that?

Like what?

Like, "If you hadn't been working, maybe Quint wouldn't be in trouble."  Mary Jo, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that.

Obviously, you've wanted to say it for a long time.

I didn't mean it.

I'm really glad you got it out.  Obviously, my kids won't take Children of the Year and I am probably to blame.  I don't have a rich husband, or even a husband.  My work's not a hobby I can drop or pick up.

Now I'm a rich old frump, is that it?

(Julia comes back in and asks what's going on.)

You're leaving.

Fine with me; I have to earn a living.

As much as I love the fight, I love even more when Mary Jo goes over to apologize.  I like when she says it's so hard; whatever choice a mother makes, she feels guilty about it because she thinks everyone in the world is judging her whether they actually are or not, and Charlene says, yeah, she and Bill were at a party and when a woman she just met asked her what she did, she overreacted with, "I work within the home.  You think running a house is easy?  It's the most important work you can do!"

And when Mary Jo says there will always be some who think stay-at-home moms are lazy or dumb and working moms are selfish yuppies, but they can't worry about those people, and moms have to keep from turning on each other.

It is amazing how relevant this episode is today.

I know a lot of younger woman who would love to be stay at home moms but with the combination of student loans, inflation, stagnant wages,  and horrible dating apps, most have given up on trying to meet someone.

It sometimes feel like this show was not take seriously because it was considered a "chic show" but they really had some poignant episodes that still resonate in the current times.

Edited August 22, 2023 by qtpye

[annzeepark914]

I was living in Raleigh at the time DW started airing. Even though I wasn't a southerner, I immediately recognized how realistic the four main characters were (well...Suzanne was a bit OTT, but her delivery of those fantastic lines was perfect-o). I still love to say, "Oh, big woo" 😁

[Taryn74]

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

I know a lot of younger woman who would love to be stay at home moms but with the combination of student loans, inflation, stagnant wages,  and horrible dating apps, most have given up on trying to meet someone.

And on the flip side, it's just as difficult for a decent young man to find someone to be in a real relationship with in today's world. If a guy asks a girl out, is she going to say yes, is she going to let him down gently if she's not interested, or is she going to make a Tik Tok video screeching about how she was "sexually harassed" by the poor guy and try to ruin his life? A man's natural inclination to shield and protect is now "toxic masculinity" and is being verbally and emotionally beaten out of him at every turn. And God help the poor sucker who sees a woman struggling with something and offers to help her. As a mother of two sons, it absolutely breaks my heart to see how men are treated nowadays.