[All Episodes Discussion]

I did end up watching both the 20/20 episode and the Dateline one as I was interested to see what info one might have that the other might not. I also watched the 48 hrs episode last weekend. I did find it interesting that each had a combination of parents and friends of the victims but not all the same in each.

Surprising to me, as I often find Dateline leaves things out, was that Dateline said (and confirmed by Kaylee's parents) that Kaylee did not even live in the house any longer. She had recently moved out, but had returned to Moscow that weekend as she wanted to show Madison a car she just purchased, and take part in the parties that were happening that weekend. 20/20 OTOH stated that Kaylee lived in the house, her bedroom was on the same floor as Madison's and her dog was in her bedroom at the time of the murders. 

Another thing Dateline said which I don't remember 20/20 saying was that the suspect's phone showed he had been driving in the area of the house where the murders took place as far back as August 2022. And even creepier, he was close enough different times to access the wifi from the house. Both shows said that Kaylee thought she was being stalked. 

Like others, I don't understand why the roommate who saw the killer when he was leaving the house didn't call the police. Neither show was able to confirm even who it was who called 911, but that was 8 hours later. Maybe the roommate didn't have her cell with her when she locked herself in her room, but you would think that at some point a call would be made, much sooner than 8 hrs later? Was it even the roommate who called 911?  Though I am sure the roommate is going through hell and survivor's guilt over seeing the killer but still being alive to tell her story to police. 

[20/20 - General Discussion]

24 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

I noted that the first jury voted 8-4 to CONVICT.  The second jury voted 8-4 to ACQUIT.  

Having worked in criminal defense for MANY years, I can say that from my experience, the State will likely revamp their presentation in the 3rd trial and try not to continue the slide from guilty to not guilty on the next jury's part.

I will also add, that from my experience, if AJ is acquitted after a 3rd trial, I wouldn't expect the State to commence an all-out investigation into who killed A.J.'s parents.  Sad but true.....

Just based on watching true crime shows,  if AJ is acquitted in his third trial, I would totally expect the prosecutors/police will insist that they had the right person. We have seen that happen even when there is overwhelming evidence pointing to another person. Criminal, really. No pun intended. 

[20/20 - General Discussion]

I am always curious as to what info might have been left out of an episode like this. I know given the info we were presented with, I could not have found AJ guilty. 

I looked up a report on his second hung jury and found some interesting info. I didn't really understand how AJ could be considered a viable suspect given that he had no GSR, no blood on him, and his fingerprints and DNA were not found at the crime scene. Apparently AJ was in communication with his girlfriend until 1:02 am, and he called 911 at 1:40. So in 38 minutes he was able to kill his parents (or mom, dad died in hospital) and clean himself up. But the bathrooms did not show that they had been used, no evidence of a clean up. This I believe was info given in the epi. 

Despite the problems AJ was having with his parents and the measures they were taking to change his bad grades, etc. the prosecution had to admit that in the thousands of text messages AJ sent, none disrespected his parents. 

In addition with regards to the security system, in the three weeks before the murders, it had recorded incorrect information 77 times. 

I never understood why the older brother Josh was not investigated more. (Other than the police seem to have tunnel vision where AJ was concerned). The sister testified that the garage had a code that only family and close friends knew.

Despite the prosecution saying that Josh's mental problems did not start until after the murders, he had previously tried to burn down his grandmother's house. And in the days before the parents' murder, he started a fire in their house. His sister testified that around the time of the murders, she felt unsafe around Josh. 

I found the video of Josh standing outside his parents house as they were being brought out rather creepy. How did he even know to go there? I don't remember it being said that he was called and told what happened. He said  later that he witnessed the death of his parents. Seeing them loaded into ambulances is hardly the same thing, though prosecution painted it that way. 

It seems to be both a sloppy investigation, and one where the police set their sights on AJ and ignored Josh as a suspect. Apparently when the police entered the house, a policewoman picked up the gun which was on the kitchen counter, with her bare hands. WTF??? She was told to document that she had done so, but she did not.

In any case if I were a resident of Houston, I would be up in arms that money was going to be spent on trying AJ for a third time when they could not get a conviction the first two times. Obviously someone has gotten away with murder, but I don't think it is AJ. 

[S17.E16: One on One (Part 2)]

13 hours ago, SuzWhat said:

I must believe that Suki knows Kody is one batshit crazy asshole.  Right?!?

Favorite moments:

1 - when he goes in for the hug when walking on set and she cock blocks it.

2 - when he reaches across to her and says "baby, we can make it work" or whatever.  She is like...biiitch get back to your side of the set.

I loved those moments too. He was trying to get sympathy from Suki, in that he was relating to her that he was pleading with his other wives to let him make it work with Meri. Another bad acting job by Kody.  But it was so inappropriate to touch Suki, in that manner. In any manner. But Kody believes he is irresistible to any female. I really wish Suki had told him he was inappropriate, but I would imagine she knew that if she did he would shut down to punish her. 

The clip they played from years ago when all of the wives talked about Kody's eyes, and that when he looked at them the look was for that wife alone, was nauseating. Kody several times I think tried to give that look to Suki. Once when he was talking about his ego as a poly, and said "It's all ego, baby", complete with an extended piercing look at her. First of all calling Suki "baby" was inappropriate, and the gaze vomit inducing. I have to give Suki credit for not either laughing or throwing up during her segments with Kody. 

It seems like Kody's remembrance of Christine being mad that he wanted to reconcile with Meri was actually Christine still being upset about the one big house he wanted to build. Kody even said that the conversation was after the house conversation, and I think either because he is thick as a brick, or wanted to remember the convo that way, he misconstrued why Christine was angry. 

It is so obvious that Christine and Janelle only stuck around as long as they did to raise their kids together.  Once most of the kids were gone, Kody's B.S. was too much to put up with. 

[Million Dollar Listing LA - General Discussion]

Tracy seems so impressed with herself that she has a boyfriend who is 20 years younger than she is. At the dinner with Josh and Heather,  the boyfriend looked ridiculous in his ball cap and black t-shirt. My hubby also noticed that he was texting on his phone as Tracy, Josh and Heather were talking. He looked like someone who was out with his parent and their friends, and he was texting his own friends to let them know when he would be free to party with them.

I wonder if Tracy and Heather have the same plastic surgeon? They have definitely reached the plastic Barbie look, and it isn't a good look on either one.

[Dragon's Den (Canada) - General Discussion]

15 hours ago, aemom said:

 

@UsernameFatigue I ordered those Basecamp cards from Amazon - free shipping with my $35 order! 😀 We're going to try them out over the holidays.

I bought the cards as well as they now sell them in our local toy store. They had both editions, I bought the first edition. We will try them as well over the holidays. We will have to compare notes on how well our friends/family liked them.

Unfortunately I only remember bits and pieces of the pitches this season, not enough to comment on them.  I did laugh at your statement that you avoid drinking your calories at all costs as I do the same. I always say that I would rather eat my calories than drink them. Lol. 

[S17.E15: One on One: Part 1]

Honestly, this interviewer drives me nuts! In the segment where they are playing what everyone believes divorce means, Janelle then talks to the interviewer about what steps are supposed to be taken before you divorce in the church. Janelle then says that it doesn't apply though to Christine because Christine no longer believes in the church/those steps. The interviewer then says "But Kody does" and Janelle agrees. No he doesn't!!! A clip was just played minutes before of Kody saying that he didn't consider himself married to Meri and longer, and he would be fine if she went off with another man. The interviewer should have asked Meri, Janelle, Robyn and Kody why he has one set of rules for marriage to Christine and another for Meri. And the most ironic thing is that Meri once was his legal wife, I assume he loved her once. But he has made it very clear that he has never loved or been attracted to Christine. But he was devastated by her leaving. Only because it was her idea. 

The most interesting thing I learned in this epi was that Kody is terrified of being poor. He must see the caboose on the gravy train, and it must terrify him. 

[S02.E07: Arrivederci]

I had also read that Jennifer Coolidge was coming back for Season 3, so was shocked when Tanya was the dead body. I hope Mike White continues on with the story as far as what happens to Greg, and I hope he does not get away with murder for hire. I also hope Tanya comes back to haunt Greg. 

[Janelle Brown: Smarter Than Your Average Brown (Maybe)]

9 minutes ago, Absolom said:

It isn't closed, but the live chat is closed as is usual.

Thanks and sorry, I shouldn't try to do 2 things at once. Lol. 

[Janelle Brown: Smarter Than Your Average Brown (Maybe)]

Wow, that's an early Christmas present to hear that Janelle has left Kody. I am confused though about Kody saying that they are separated? What though is the difference in the Brown world between separation and divorce?

Kody is only legally divorced from Meri. He decided that he is no longer "spiritually" (or whatever their marriage is supposed to be) married to Meri because he doesn't want to be. Meri on the other hand acts like it is a trail separation as she is still hanging around, hoping for a bread crumb or two of attention from Kody.

Christine decided she no longer wanted to be married to Kody, so she isn't. Kody goes on and on about the divorce, but really there wasn't one, even a pylg divorce because neither of them follow the church any longer. 

So it seems to me that Janelle could just as easily be divorced from Kody as separated, as their is nothing in the Brown world to define one from the other, its in name only. In any case it is about time Janelle, but glad you made the decision. 

BTW, does anyone know why commenting is closed on the thread for last night's epi? 

[S01E08: Big Bang Theories]

I love this show, and love that they had Voodoo donuts in this episode. My niece and her hubby were married at the original Voodoo donuts in Portland in 2010. They had watched a show on odd/interesting restaurants that featured Voodoo donuts, and the fact that they perform weddings. They weren't even engaged at that time, but decided that should they even get married, they should get married there. There were a dozen or so of us that made the trek from B.C. to Portland for the wedding. 😄

[S17.E13: Coronapocalypse]

That TH of Gabe crying was heart breaking. I don't understand why Janelle keeps giving Kody the benefit of the doubt where her kids are concerned. Also, Geez Louise (or Geez Janelle) WTH was she talking about, Kody not being his usual optimistic self during Covid? Kody hasn't been optimistic since the majority of his kids figured him out, and kicked him to the curb. And true to his narcissistic self, he is blaming everyone else for where his life is now. 

I was laughing at Kody's assertion that he never thought he would be known as someone who had been divorced (to paraphrase). Gee Kody, you have a real honest to goodness legal divorce from Meri. Remember, when you conned her into divorcing you so you could make Robyn your legal wife? Not to mention you stated recently on the show that you do not considered Meri to be a wife, that you are divorced from her spiritually as well. Despite Robyn's assertion that you can't 'divorce' a wife without the church's blessing, 

So, lets see, divorced both legally from Meri, and whatever the other version is, in your head. Christine says the two of you didn't need to get divorced by the church as neither of you follow the church's teachings any longer. So you are divorced in one way or another from half of your wives. You certainly seem bent on getting rid of Janelle as well. And honestly, you would be doing her a favour, as it is just pathetic to have Janelle consider you her best friend, when you can barely stomach being around her. 

I was totally fascinated by how much younger Robyn looked with Covid, sans makeup. I always assumed her horrible eyebrows were tattooed on, but since they were normal looking when she had Covid, maybe not? She looked sooooo much better with normal eyebrows. 

[All Episodes Talk: Now We're Talking]

I haven't watched The Talk at all this season, just too busy doing other things. So I had no idea that Amanda had co created a Christmas movie, and was also starring in it. I watched it tonight and thought it was pretty good. Typical Christmas movie fare, but certainly as good or better than the typical Hallmark offering. Amanda really does light up the screen, as the saying goes. 

I'll have to find Friday's episode to watch. ☺

[All Episodes Discussion]

I didn't watch this Dateline epi, as I knew I had seen the story before, and thought Dateline was just repackaging as a new epi by adding a couple of minutes of new info. Now I realize that it must have been the 48 Hours version that I watched. 

Doesn't seem like there was much new info, but I do remember posting after the 48 Hours epi how happy I was that there are now two less morons killing innocent animals. And to call hunting a sport is laughable. Sports are fair, and the only way hunting would be a sport is if the animals were armed with guns (or bows and arrows as the case might be) as well.

I don't remember the 48 Hrs version talking about Bianca being deeply religious. But yes, the Catholic faith has allowed cremation since the early 1960s. My husband was raised Catholic (though has not been a practicing Catholic in his adulthood) and I asked him years ago whether he wanted to be cremated or buried. His answer? "Surprise me". Lol. 

[All Episodes Talk: Small World, Big Lives]

6 hours ago, floridamom said:

I liked the other couple who appeared on the show very much. I think they are/were genuine and my heart goes out to them. I can't imagine losing one child, let alone two. I sincerely hope things work out for them and I am impressed with their attitude and their faith in the future and what it may hold for them. I would much rather see them on TV go about their lives and struggles to have another child, adding to an already great family. TLC, take note of this. All the best to them. 

What a lovely couple Mikey and Jessica were. My heart melted when Jessica was at the beach with Murphy draped over her, lapping up all the attention he was getting from Jessica.  I really wanted Mikey and Jessica to take Murphy home, as he never seems to get much if any attention from Zach and Tori.

Also was not impressed with Jackson pulling the chicken's tail feathers. I have no patience for parents who do not teach their children to respect animals. I will admit I have been an animal lover from the time I was a small child, so I never had to be told to respect them. But if your kid doesn't come by a love for animals naturally and you insist on having them, teach them respect!! 

Why would Tori have to wait until Jackson is in kindergarten full time, to spend time helping Laila with her speech? What is Zach doing that he can't keep Jackson occupied and free up Tori? I usually don't mind Zach and Tori, but was not a fan of either in this episode. 

[Dragon's Den (Canada) - General Discussion]

13 hours ago, aemom said:

I just saw this now.  Thank you for the compliment @UsernameFatigue, though it's almost a year late. 🤪

I don't know what happened to my PVR, but it taped none of this current season and just realized that it's already over.

Ironically those infernal BaseCamp cards emailed me about a Black Friday special (first time in a year I've heard from them) and that's what made me think - "Are there new DD episodes?"

So - I'm catching up now by watching them on CBC Gem - HATE THE ADS - and I'm partway through Episode 2.

Episode 1 thoughts:

I have zero interest in eating lobster, but they all seemed very excited about the product and good on him for the deal with Arlene.  He seemed like a super nice guy

Eye gadgets seemed cool, and as much time as I spend on a screen for work and my hobby, I've never had the problem, so not for me.

We do use sprinkles here for Christmas cookies, but so much on other stuff anymore.  I hope she does well, she seemed very competent.

The Parked Auto guys - I first thought that they were teaming up with existing shops with that app to drive business.  Shops get business, the guys get a cut, you chauffeur my car around, everyone wins! Great idea! But they want to open actual shops to do the oil changes with?  Seems like a huge mistake to me.

I did watch the episodes this season, but do not remember any of the pitches from epi one. Hopefully if you get a chance to recap the rest of the episodes AEMOM, some will ring a bell. I did love having Robert back on the show! 

I had to laugh at your comment regarding BaseCamp Cards. I too received an email regarding a Black Friday sale after not hearing from them in a year. I was very interested in buying a couple of decks for xmas presents last year, but when I went to order online the amount to ship was absolutely ridiculous. I actually live where they are located, so emailed to ask if I could pick up the cards locally. I even checked a local independent games store, and they had never heard of them. I never did hear back anything from my email enquiry. 

After getting the recent email I checked the local games store and see they now have them in stock, so I may still purchase a deck to try them out. Not at all impressed though by BaseCamp Cards  lack of customer service last year! 

[All Episodes Discussion]

I had so many questions in this episode, and no answers. I didn't understand Cindy's claim that she slept in the camper because Ken got so many late night calls as a pharmacist. Really? How many emergency pharmacy calls would one get? I've never heard of such a thing. It looked like he and his partner had their own business, so why would someone be calling Ken at home off hours to have a prescription filled? I was waiting for the police to say they had asked, say his partner, if that was even a thing/true.

Also I didn't understand how Cindy could inherit everything from Ken. Even if it was a real will, why would his ex not contest it at least on behalf of the minor son. At least where I live, unless there is a really good reason, children cannot be cut totally out of a will just because their parent's second spouse doesn't like the kids. I thought they said that Ken's ex and he were in a custody/maintenance dispute over the 16 yr old, so how could he be totally cut out of Ken's will when Ken still had financial obligations to him? I know this point doesn't necessarily relate to the murder, but I didn't understand how Cindy could inherit everything, even if it was (though it certainly didn't seem like it) Ken's actual will. 

I did like the cop who finally took over pointing out the things that only Cindy would know, as well as noticing that the b in the note looked exactly like b that Ken made in his notes on the white board. Too bad it took so long for the case to get to that point.

[S17.E09: A Polygamist Divorce]

Well, that episode was most entertaining. Robyn goes on and on about how Christine and Kody can't be divorced because they didn't get permission from the church, and go to extensive counselling that the church requires before they allow you to divorce. Cut to Christine saying that she doesn't belong to the church any longer, and neither does Kody. Lol. 

Then Kody says in a TH that he doesn't consider himself to be married to Meri any longer. What? Why isn't Robyn pointing out to Kody that he can't just ditch Meri, when she has pointed out to Christine that she can't just ditch Kody? SMH. 

I don't for a minute think that Meri is staying because she thinks that Kody might some day fall and hit his head, and forget that he has no use for her. She is staying for the paycheck, and that is her storyline.

Kody (and Robyn) meanwhile are freaking out because they are afraid the gravy train may be drying up. Christine is leaving, Meri is a sister wife but not a wife, and Janelle looks like she could walk at any time. After all these years, the thought of losing TLC money must be frightening.

The best scene though, and the one that made me laugh out loud, was the preview where Kody declared that he sacrificed to love Christine. I think it is the other way around, Kodster. But a narcissist is gonna narc. 

[All Episodes Talk: Small World, Big Lives]

I had to laugh at Matt griping that he spent his own money cleaning up the farm. Since he owns it, whose money did he think he should be spending? 

Matt said that he wanted Zach and Jeremy to work together to buy the farm? I don't remember that ever being a scenario that we the viewers have seen. Am I forgetting something? It was always expected (at least by Matt) that Jeremy would run the farm someday. He bailed, and then it moved on to Zach possibly buying it. When were Zach and Jeremy ever going to buy the farm together? 

I did laugh at Tori's comment that the dove took the olive branch and flew to another island. Lol. 

[All Episodes Discussion]

6 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

I admit to knowing next to nothing about investigating crimes and the legality of what is allowed, but it felt like the Canadian police were able to do a lot more with this investigation than we typically see from similar cases on this show. The phone wire tapping, multiple undercover agents offering various solutions (the one dying of cancer in a wheelchair really stuck out to me), recording conversations in an ice shack, placing a recording device on a suspect without him being aware, etc. Do they have more resources, or more of a legal avenue to do all of this? 

More legal avenues. Though the Supreme Court did limit some of the scope of these investigations in 2014, they are still ongoing and legal. They are usually referred to as "Mr Big" stings, where the suspect is befriended by one or more undercover police officers, and (usually) eventually told they can make a ton of money by working for a crime boss, but must come clean about any past illegal doings. And of course murders are popular as the crime boss wants to make sure the prospective employee is up for anything.

It has been used successfully in several cases even in the last several years where the police had suspicions but not enough evidence. One case that comes to mind is a six year old girl who was tortured and murdered by her father and step mother. 

Like we often joke that some of these perps must not watch Dateline or they would know what not to do, some Canadian criminals must not follow Canadian cases. If I were to murder someone, I would know to be suspicious if suddenly a stranger befriended me. And certainly if a "crime boss" wanted to bring me into his organization. 

I also didn't understand why the authorities were not notified that husband had had his passport confiscated. Also didn't understand why if he had gone to Florida, he could not have been returned to Canada?

Thank goodness the son was not one of those kids who believe their parent at any cost. Hopefully the other son is the same, and just didn't want to appear on camera. 

[S01.E07: Haunting]

While for the most part I enjoyed the series, like others felt that there was sooooo much that just didn't make sense. Right up to and including the last frame where Nora is following Dean in her own car. They have moved back to the city, and NOW they get a second car? Lol. 

The one thing I absolutely abhor is when writers kill off animals. It is lazy writing, and annoys the heck out of me. I figured both the ferret and the dog would bite the dust, and was hoping to be proved wrong. No such luck. 

[Jeopardy! Season 39 (2022-2023)]

2 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

I kept lost Molly thinking that she was related to Jennifer Garner, except the contestant has way exaggerated facial expressions. She was also so serious, but I can’t fault her for concentrating and try to do well. 

 

Molly's exaggerated facial expressions reminded me of Iain Armitage playing Sheldon on Young Sheldon. It was amazing how similar several expressions were. 

[S06.E05: A River in Egypt]

11 hours ago, CoyoteBlue said:

FFS, so done with Padma's baby drama. Hire a nanny to assist. And - you have two arms, stop saying you can't hold both. Maybe you can't feed them both with bottles, but you can lie down and hold both of them skin-to-skin. I'm glad they had Austin notice she's struggling while Leila is totally oblivious to her twin's pain. I like that Devon realized that having kids with both of them working doctors would be crazy.,

Conrad, why are you skirting around the edges of have The Talk with Billie? You're with what's-her-face, this is not the time to go there.

Please, no more Padma. But maybe they are doing for a post partum depression storyline? Still, having to put up with Gigi storylines is enough "home life" for me.

Except for Bell and Kit's home life. I am so glad Bruce Greenwood is back. I think he was filming another show? In any case those two have been sorely missed as Kit hasn't been on much either. I hope they now get their share of camera time. 

[All Episodes Discussion]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

"A Cool Desert Morning" - the fact that the husband took the alford plea pretty much convinces me of his guilt. Otherwise, I had my doubts. Susan had a history of mental illness and a previous suicide attempt. We've all seen the families who refuse to believe their loved one committed suicide, the Winters family seemed to fit that bill. Just because the last time they saw her she seemed fine doesn't mean she was incapable of harming herself. And how do you force someone to drink that much anti-freeze?

What was really compelling to me was the daughter, who was so insistent that her mother committed suicide. Unlike the parents or the brother, the daughter lived with her mother day in and day out and would have been the best judge of her mental state at the time of her death. 

I don't know. I was really on the fence until the end because I thought the episode skewed heavily towards the Winters' POV, and some of the "experts" seemed like crackpots. 

Didn't they say that they thought the husband put the antifreeze in her drink? They were drinking that night, so it would have been easy enough. And it makes sense that when Susan was passed out but had not passed away, Brent googled to find out how long it would take to die from antifreeze poisoning. And then realized it wasn't going to happen right away.

I also agree with Susan's father. Why on earth would you kill yourself by drinking antifreeze? Susan was a lawyer, and lawyers are often A type personalities. I doubt she would choose that method of suicide without first researching that it would be a slow, painful death. She certainly had other methods available, including I would think her own meds.

Two things that jumped out at me, and always makes me suspicious of the spouse. First of all when the paramedics were working on Susan, he was already telling them that she tried to commit suicide. Who does that? Unless you are trying divert suspicion from yourself, right away. 

The second was when Brent claimed (bragged) that  just a few days earlier that they had sex, and not only that, but Susan had had a trifecta of orgasms. Not likely. I am always suspicious when a husband in a lousy marriage claims that just before his wife died,  they had sex, and fantastic sex at that.  Barf. It is pretty much always a big red flag for me. I love that they included the reaction of the women in I think it was the prosecutor's office. What a pig. 

I don't necessarily think that the oldest daughter was being truthful about her mother's state of mind before her death, given the plans her mother had made for the near future,. I do think she was desperate to hold on to the one parent she had remaining. 

I also don't believe that Brent took the Alford plea to save his daughters from a trial, other than it would have exposed more of his dirty laundry. But it certainly wasn't because he was not guilty and sparing them. 

Was it Susan's sister in law (sitting with her brother) who said she had never heard of an Alford plea? Right away I said out loud, "She obviously doesn't watch Dateline!" 

This is another case though of a murderer who would have gone free if not for the family's persistence and in this case deep pockets. The fact that the medical examiners office did not know that Susan could not have been killed by the antifreeze right away is rather disturbing. I realize as the expert said that they aren't toxicologists, but should a toxicologist not be brought in, in cases like this, to explain what seemed to me should have been a pretty big point? 

[S12.E21: Not My Sister's Keeper]

6 minutes ago, Cosmocrush said:

Honestly, I kind of forgot about that since Bravo just slipped it in at the very end.  Hopefully she will find a surrogate since she seems determined to have another baby.  

I guess you haven't heard, Diana didn't make it to the reunion because of Covid so she zoomed in, which not wish anyone ill health but it's probably just as well since I can't think of much she could add.

Thanks for the reminder, I forgot that Diana won't be there in person.

I don't understand why she doesn't go the surrogacy route either, given she has already given birth three times. In any case though, she added absolutely nothing to this season, so whatever she does in her quest to have another child is of no interest to me. Whatsoever.