apinknightmare

Yeah, I hope that's what it is. Creepy as he is to me, it would be sad if he had an ulterior motive as far as pursuing her romantically is concerned, since I'd hate for her "alternative" to not only have creepy tendencies but also not be genuinely interested in her.

He's a shareholder though, he should have access to the building.

I see what you're saying regarding Oliver, but it makes sense that he would have all of those outlets available to him, because he's the main character and everyone on the show is in his orbit, and the show is about him and his personal relationships and becoming a better man. We needed to see all of those sides of him to accept him as a hero, because when he came back from the island he was running around killing people and he needed those connections to humanize him. I think Diggle is meant to be Felicity's emotional sounding board, just like he's Oliver's. She's never had difficulty expressing herself to him before, so if we were meant to know what she was thinking or how she felt about anything that's going on now, she would've told him. Would I like to see Felicity have a life outside of work and Arrow time? Definitely. I'd love to get to see her sitting around chatting with friends, but I know I'm never going to get it. It's unfortunate, but I do understand it.

Oh, I totally agree with you about this. The bribe wasn't at all necessary and it made the narrative messy because why was Ray "bribing" her with romantic gestures if he intended the night to be platonic? Unless he said that to make Felicity believe it was supposed to be platonic when he meant for it to be romantic, or...I don't know. I wish they'd just get to the point of whatever it is he's doing because I feel like everything that's supposed to make me accept him make me think he's shady, and I accept all the things that are supposed to make me think he's shady.

None of them have friends outside of each other that we see on the show though. Oliver's life is the foundry. Diggle's life is Lyla and the foundry, and the only reason we have Lyla now is because she's connected to ARGUS. Roy has the foundry. At one point Roy had Sin, but everyone's forgotten she exists. Laurel has Quentin and now Ted, because we need Ted for training purposes - they got rid of her other friend when she stopped being useful to the plot. We don't get to see any parts of anyone's personal life if it doesn't connect to the larger narrative - it's not a Felicity specific problem.

Yeah, but we don't know exactly how that's going to shake out. Maybe he leaves voluntarily - maybe he doesn't. Maybe he thinks it's going to be the very last time he gets to tell her.

I disagree. If there was going to be a motivating factor for Felicity to accept the dinner invite, the dress is much less offensive than tech. If Ray had offered her tech, he'd look like even more of a creep since he'd be dangling something in front of her in exchange for going to dinner that she could literally use anywhere, whereas offering her a dress to wear to said dinner is more like an incentive rather than a bribe. The tech? That'd be a straight-up, undeniable bribe and wouldn't make either one of them look all that great IMO. Ray's shown no indication that he disapproves of her wardrobe and wants to change it. I think a dress is just a dress here - he offered it because he knew she'd like it and might be swayed to attend if she got to wear it.

I agree. I don't think it really matters exactly what it took for her to agree to go to the dinner though, whether it was tech or a dress, it was still a motivating factor. Granted, the tech would've come off as more of a direct bribe, since she wouldn't have had to go to a restaurant to use it. It does make more sense for her to think, 'oooh, pretty dress I wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to wear,' so oddly I think the dress being the motivating factor makes her decision seem less...maybe shallow isn't the right word, but less like she's able to actually be bribed, I guess. But as VP, he has every reason to invite her to a business dinner, so offering the dress and necklace were intended to be romantic beats, but after he pulled away from the kiss he said that he had intended the evening to be platonic. If he'd intended that, then why did he ply her with fashion and jewelry? Kind of makes it seem like he purposely led her on, but I don't think that's what we're supposed to get from it. Messy.

I think him realizing that he's distracted either way is the point, though. He followed Diggle's advice and went to her because like Digg said - he knows he made the wrong choice (although I think his initial reaction to the tracker was not only because he was distracted, but because he was SO distracted that he led someone right to them and could've gotten them both killed). I wish he would've said something to her in her office, but I get being stunned and hurt and walking away being his first instinct. I know it would be tropey and expected to drag it out, but I wonder if he actually does confess his feelings to her in 3x09, and that's the "best Olicity moment" he teased on the after show? Of course, then he goes away, so that's unfortunate, but it would be out there when he comes back.

Also, did anyone notice the time jump in this ep? During Ray's speech on the illustrious Channel 52 news, he said that "a few months ago" he made a promise to revitalize Starling City. So...did we lose a month and a half-ish somewhere here?

I don't think he had a fit at all. I think it was a moment of anger at himself (IMO what he did in the foundry was because he knew without a doubt that he had screwed up). He didn't take it out on Felicity, he didn't yell, he just had his moment of abject frustration like we sometimes do and then did something healthy by going and spending time with his friends instead of wallowing in his manpain. It's growth in my book.

^ I think all of these things are purposeful and not coincidence, and it's certainly interesting to see all these favors and their results in one post after getting bits and pieces of it over the past 7 eps. I think he's manipulating Felicity to do these things for him (not towards an evil end) and it's starting to get away from him, because he does like her and he probably doesn't want to hurt her and like @ostentatious wrote, that's probably why he pulled away from her when they kissed. I'm interested to see where they go with Palmer as far as his plans for the suit and what he's doing in Starling City. Could not be less interested in watching him with Felicity with the way things are playing out at the moment.

Moved from the "Cupid" episode thread: This is another situation where I feel like if I hadn't listened to or read any producer interviews I'd probably be enjoying the show more, or at least have different expectations. I came away from the hiatus believing that Ray was legit and the relationship was going to be an actual real one, so that tempered my expectations for what I thought I was supposed to see in the show. Because I believed that they were trying to sell me something real, I was confused why everything was moving so fast and why there were so many missing moments. If I were to just have watched the show, I would think nothing of Ray and Felicity, because it's so obviously being set up as a rebound/temporary thing. And I get the feeling that he's not there to be a roadblock in the traditional sense where we're supposed to be left reeling and biting our nails over which guy Felicity's going to choose, but that he's there to get Felicity into the career she deserves and to spark the realization in Oliver that he needs to fight for the life that he wants. Seems like his purpose is to keep people comfortable in the O/F ship while at the same time providing the growth both of them need, while being yet another superhero toy for the writers to bring into the fold. I thought we'd be in for episodes of relationship building and such, but now I think it'll stay just on the other side of platonic, with some dates and flirting but not actually more than that. I'm probably 100% wrong about it though.

I'm moving this to the Relationships thread, because I think it might fit better over there.

We're only getting that from Oliver because he's the one who made the decision not to be with her, and it is decidedly coming back to bite him in the ass. She told him in that hospital that once they talked, it was over. She was in, and once he decided he wasn't, that was it. This is probably the first time Oliver has had someone shut him down like this romantically. In the past, he's always gotten away with being wishy-washy, with not being able to make up his mind and coming back around whenever he felt like it. Felicity let him know in no uncertain terms that he doesn't get to play with her heart like that, and she's sticking to it. I admire that. Still, while she's not openly pining for him, I am getting signs that were he willing to admit he was wrong and make the decision to commit, she'd be willing to consider it again. And she does care about not hurting him; just look at the way she gently eased him into the idea that she was going out to dinner with Ray for work reasons. She was very quiet about it, let him know that it wasn't a date. She asked him if it was okay very tentatively, like she was hoping he'd say something about how he felt, but he didn't. When Dig went to her office and told her that Oliver had made the wrong decision, she didn't tell him she was better off, or that maybe it was the right decision as far as she was concerned because her feelings weren't the same. She told him that if Oliver felt he made a mistake, then he should be the one to say so; that if he wants another chance he needs to admit he wants one and ask for it. She told him it wasn't going to happen exactly one time: in that hospital hallway, and even then she put the ball in his court by telling him that once they talked, it would be over. He's shut her down how many times now? In the hospital, in the foundry by telling her his mission was going to end with him dead, when he told her she could do whatever she wanted when she brought up Ray's work dinner, when he spoke to her through Cupid and told her he needed to be alone. Why would she allow herself to be emotionally vulnerable to Oliver when he's told her four times that it's only going to end in heartbreak for her? She's walling herself off in the same way Oliver did, and it's jarring to see because the Felicity we know wears her heart on her sleeve. It's also difficult to reconcile with the person we know, but then again, we've never seen her in a romantic relationship before. As much as I feel like Oliver has been punished (tortured, really) by his mistakes and it's terrible storytelling and it's rough to see this guy continually beaten down, I do feel like he does need to feel the weight of this one. He's never going to learn to stop shutting down emotionally unless doing that costs him dearly, and it's costing him dearly now. What he said last season was right: he is his own worst enemy. He needs to learn that the coping mechanisms he developed that helped him survive on the island are the same ones that are going to ensure he's only surviving in Starling City. Those are the exact instincts that are keeping him from having a life. It's all part and parcel of him learning that he can be himself and the Arrow, that he can live and he can survive, that he can fight for the city but he also has to fight for himself. I would honestly be surprised if he takes this out on Felicity and acts callously towards her. I think he fully realizes that this one is on him, and he's angry with himself for pushing her away in the first place, and then waiting so long to realize he was wrong.

Maybe it's moving toward a Felicity/Ray/Tech three-way?

QC's name is shit though. It makes sense for the company to be renamed, and Ray obviously has a track record of success, so why wouldn't the board vote to change it to something recognizable and synonymous with success?

Oh, I don't think so either. Apparently this dude just has to hit rock bottom AGAIN to summon up the ability fight to get his shit together. Good lord.

I think she's just projecting. He's Oliver without the baggage, and he's right there and is ready to give her the relationship that Oliver won't. I don't think she necessarily thinks Ray's great. She thinks Oliver's great and she sees a lot of Oliver in Ray, so...projection city.

Hey, I'm not the one who said Felicity was going to struggle with her two lives - EBR said that. I'm just speculating as to what kinds of consequences that has and how it plays out. Oh, he's totally short term, and they're not even trying to be subtle about it. He owns Oliver's company, he's trying to save the city like Oliver does, he does the salmon ladder like Oliver does, he even takes Felicity to the same restaurant Oliver did for their first "date." Felicity's talking about Ray when she's trying to convince the businessman across the table as to why he should sell Ray his whatever...It's anvil city, baby.

I'm glad they went the contrived angst route where Felicity doesn't know he saw so she didn't have to do something stupid like explain herself.

We're still supposed to be sympathizing with both of them, and I do. Oliver for obvious reasons (and he did make huge personal strides this ep), and Felicity too. If we weren't supposed to be sympathetic with Felicity, we wouldn't have had her telling Oliver about the "work" date and her giving him an opportunity to object (which he didn't), and him telling her through Cupid that he had to be alone and couldn't be with her even though he loved her. They basically hammered it home twice (once in a brutal way) before she kissed Ray.

EBR herself said that Felicity was going to struggle with her two lives. I feel like her work life (and probably her relationship with Ray) is going to drag her away from her Arrow activities. Tonight it was her needing the night off so she could go to dinner with Ray, next week, who knows? And that's good, that's okay. She's doing her best to be there and be present for both of her jobs, but something's going to have to give eventually. THAT'S what I think she's going to have to rethink - how committed she wants to continue to be to each of those things. Like I posted earlier, she's going to have to find a balance. And maybe she's going to miss out on some stuff and feel left out and need to reprioritize before she finds that balance.

As much as I hate this Ray relationship and think it unintentionally problematic as all hell, we did just learn that Felicity is terminally single (during that fight with her mom), and her heart is broken because for a few glorious hours she thought she was finally going to get to share her life with Oliver, a guy she's loved and cared about and fought for and fought with for two years now. And then he backed away in the worst way possible, not by telling her that he didn't love her, but that he does but he can't be with her. She's just kind of flying blind and trying to get through it and majorly projecting her feelings for Oliver onto Ray, because he's an emotionally available version of the guy she really loves. He's wooing her and she's probably never been wooed before, so she's getting kind of swept up in being appreciated and wanted in a way that she never has before. She's getting everything she wanted career-wise, and she's trying to see if there's something out there for her heart. She was a little out of character tonight, but I think that's okay for where she is right now. Her whole life has been Oliver for the past two years - I think it's only natural that she might unintentionally be a little insensitive (like not telling him that Ray was renaming Queen Consolidated) while she tries to focus on herself for a bit.

I mean that she hasn't been on the outside looking in as far as the team is concerned. If she does feel like that's her home and she feels like she's losing it, maybe that will force her to rethink some things. Although honestly I don't think that much thought has been put into her behavior. They need her to be with Ray for manpain purposes, so she's with Ray for manpain purposes.