WearyTraveler

And, off course, there's already a side by side picture comparison:

Euron Greyjoy? Randyll Tarly?

An Umber?

This is the chapter I wanted to discuss. Particularly, the dream Ned had of the crypts at Winterfell. When Jon dreamt of the crypts earlier, he didn't go all the way down to Lyanna, Brandon an Rickard's tombs, as he woke up before he reached that place. And in his internal monologue we read that Jon was afraid of what he would find if he got that far into the crypts. Now we have Ned also dreaming of the crypts, but he does reach Lyanna, Brandon and Rickard. What I was thinking when contrasting these two dreams was: 1) That the dreams are profetic. They both dream of the crypts because they will both die. 2) That Ned will be sad because he couldn't keep his promise to Lyanna. 3) That Jon is afraid of getting all the way to the end of the tunnel because on some level he knows that he'll find "his father" there (at the time Jon had his dream, Ned was alive and well in KL) 4) That in WoW, we will read about Jon having the same dream as he dies on the snow in Castle Black. Only this time he will reach the end of the passage, and he'll find Ned there waiting for him, finally ready to tell him all about his mother. And then Jon will be pulled back into life by Melisandre. Thoughts?

Well, I wasn't happy about getting the Ironborn on the show again, but then, in the next post, bam! News of KH in Belfast. That makes me happy, no matter how many Eurons they hit me with.

I had literally no patience with Sansa before Ned's beheading. I didn't hate her or anything of the sort, I just remember feeling very frustrated by her character. I understand that she is young and naive, but here's Arya, who is even younger, being the bigger person an apologizing first. Also, Arya had exactly the same upbringing as Sansa, with the same family, septa and maester, yet she doesn't buy into all the romanticized bullshit of the songs; instead, she admires the women who dared to be different from the norm, like Nymeria. Furthermore, she had Joffrey pegged for the little shit he was almost as soon as she met him, way before the incident at the Trident. Meanwhile, Sansa is just so enamored of living a fairy tale life that she goes into the most perverse denial. Deep down she knows what happened and, in her heart, she actually sees Joffrey for who he is, otherwise, she wouldn't be so adamant in her internal monologue trying to convince herself of the opposite. In later books I believe she actually has moments of self-reflection where she recognizes how deeply in denial she was here, for which I give the character props. But I just can't with early Sansa! :D I also felt, upon re-read that Ned was sheltering them too much by not explaining in further detail precisely why he was sending them back to Winterfell. Perhaps if he had, Sansa would not have gone to the Queen to reveal her father's plans. Had Ned been successful in sending them North, I agree that the war would have still happened, but I wonder if Cersei and Pycelle would have been much more careful ith Joffrey regarding Ned's life, since he would have been a perfectly good hostage to exert some pressure on Robb, and eventually exchange for Jamie.

True Science Fiction Is Exciting: Interview with Javier Grillo-Marxuach (co-executive producer of The 100). The article says there are spoilers, but it's nothing major, IMO. Some of it is just re-stating what the actors and creator said at the panel.

I am Stan!

On the Book 1 re-read thread we have just come to the chapter where Jamie confronts Ned about Tyrion being seized by Catelyn in the streets of King's Landing. In that scene Jamie says he doesn't want to kill Ned, but he does order his men to kill Ned's men. A completely cruel, unnecessary act. It was just done out of revenge and anger. Now, until we get Jamie POVs in Book 2, we don't know what drives him. Also, his redemption and character development don't begin to happen until he loses his hand, and it's not until the scene at the pools when we see a really more human side to Jamie. That is almost two books. I was wondering if it was stuff like that which cemented the image on D&D 's mind of Jamie being a "monster that loves killing". I'd agree the show hasn't done enough to get Jamie to where his book counterpart is, particularly by omitting his Riverlands plot. But I do wonder if all that development will come crashing down for Jamie when he discovers, in the books, that Brienne has betrayed him to Lady Stoneheart. He's still reeling from Cersei's betrayal and then Brienne will hand him over to LSH, so, what will that do to Jamie's psyche? Will he then regress to the guy that pushed a 7 year old out of a window and ordered the unnecessary, cruel massacre of Ned's men? I understand that would be a disappointment for Jamie fans, but it would not be an illogical development for the character, given his circumstances. Could it be that D&D have known all along that Jamie would end up being the monster everyone thinks him to be for real and that's why the haven't bothered with his redemption arc that much? It's interesting to ponder.

I'm starting to feel like Sansa is "she who must not be named" :-/

According to this article, from a recent Reddit conversation with Jack Bender (slated to direct two episodes next season) I agree he needs editing, but he won't allow for any. In a regular situation, a publishing house has much more influence, but since Martin is so popular and his books sell so much, he's got all the power in the writer-publisher relationship. Basically, if he wants to leave his current publisher, a new publisher would gladly pay for any fees for wanting to get out of a publishing contract so that they'd get the rights to publish Martin's books. So, the current publishing house allows Martin a wide, wide margin. His last editor suggested he use the phrase "words are wind" less, and George refused. Guess who won that battle? If the book is truly finished, then I'd expect editing will be a relatively fast process: EDITOR: I think you should cut out some of the food descriptions in this chapter MARTIN: No EDITOR: Okay (please don't break your contract, please, please, please!)

I wonder if it's scenes like these that gave D&D the impression that Jamie is "a monster who loves killing". Jamie probably knows Tyrion is innocent of the charges, so, his going off half cocked in defense of his brother is not unexpected, but giving the order to kill Ned's men is cruel. It's hard to believe, upon re-reading, that this is the same Jamie we later see . As for Ned, I started reading the series after I'd binged the first season, so, inevitably, the characters had the faces of their TV counterparts in my head. Reading about Ned holding Jory's body with the image of Sean Bean's face.... It's moments like these that show what a great man Ned was, faults and all; and that make people love him so much that even after his death, 5 books later, readers still think about him, and care about the Starks' fate, I think. I still want justice for his death, was not enough. I think that the only justice that would feel satisfactory, for me anyway, is for the Starks to rise again to all their glory. Nothing else will suffice. I think the next Ned chapter is the one with the dream that I wanted to discuss in contrast to Jon's dream going down to the Winterfell crypts. Very eager to get there. On another note, how heavy are the anvils here for R+L=J?

He really is a hottie /end shallow outburst

Just as there has been no indication that things remain the same.... ;-)

Enjoy your holiday, Avaleigh! The re-read can wait!

I thought what they were suggesting was that LF gave Olenna the same thing he gave Cersei, a pretty talkative Olyvar. Only this time he said (or would say) different things. Lancel might have confessed he slept with Cersei and that he served the king poisoned wine at her request, but did he know about Jamie? It seems to me that the "boy" LF offered Olenna is someone other than Lancel, who seems to be as strong a zealot and believer as the High Sparrow himself (the boy branded himself on the forhead, FFS!). I think Olyvar, at LF's request, either gave them Cersei and Jamie's incestuous affair, or recanted his testimony on the Tyrells by saying the Queen made him do it, or both.

That's awesome!

A re-read was recently started. We are still on the first book, if you'd like to join us, you can go here. I won't give you the titles, in case you guys think that they may sully you, but here's the publishing chronology and which books each season covered (roughly): Book 1 - published in 1996 - Season 1 Book 2 - published in 1998 - Season 2 Book 3 - published in 2000 - Seasons 3 and 4 Book 4 - published in 2005 - Season 5 Book 5 - published in 2011 - Season 5 As of the S5 finale the show has caught up with the books completely, and for one character they even included a story point that happens in book 6 (Martin has released a few preview chapters of book 6). Martin has shared with the show runners the outline of his planned endgame for all the important characters. And Martin has publicly said that even though some people on the internet have guessed some of it, he will not change it because he put the clues in the text for a reason and those readers earned their guesses. I started unsullied. I binged S1 right before S2 started and live watched season 2. Then I read the books because I can't not know. It's been a very interesting experience to see this adaptation. On a purely academic level, I think this could be a subject for film schools everywhere.

Well, I don't think it was immediate. We haven't seen Lancel for a few seasons (didn't he leave KL after The Blackwater?), since season 2, I think. It's been a while. For all we know he could have been doing some penance for his sins all this time and just now earned the right to be one of the enforcers of the High Sparrow.

This chapter always makes me wonder what was in that letter that LF sent Cat. Given that Petyr seemed to have been a pretty reckless youth with a lot of passion, one of my guesses is that the letter was something along the lines of "I hate you, I'll make you and your family pay for this, I will not rest until House Tully and House Stark are but ashes in the wind". Later, LF learned to play the game and tamed his youthful impulses. When Catelyn showed up in KL and readily trusted him, Petyr guessed she hadn't even read the letter and set in motion the events that would start the destruction of both houses. I remember upon first read that I never thought Tyrion had anything to do with Bran's assassination attempt. One of my most pressing questions in AGoT always was: who did it? And while I had guessed at Robert's children not being his, I never guessed who had so clumsily planned the attack on Bran.

Timing and owning the message is everything. I think the Lancel situation is the same as when a campaign manager for a politician running for office asks him/her if they have any skeletons in their closet and dependig on the situation the manager sometimes recommends that they own up to it before running so they can control the message.

They (my two paragraphs) can be reconciled because we were talking about a specific point in time when none of the things you mentioned (Edmure captured, Riverrrun besieged, etc.) had happened yet and because the second paragraphs supports a point made in the first one. It seems to me you're the one mixing in later events here. We were talking about Frey letting Robb's army through the Twins. Robb wanted to reach the Riverlands quickly, so that he could join Edmure and attack the Lannisters. At the time Catelyn went to negotiate with Lord Frey the Riverlands were still strong and the war had not broken out in full force yet. For Robb's army to have an strategic advantage he needed to cross the rivers quickly, going around them would have delayed him too much. So, he needed to go through the Twins. Your comment was that at that time Frey had no logical reason to let him through. My comment was that he did have a logical reason because the Tullys are his liege lords and he's supposed to do what they ask. Particularly when the King (Robert) hasn't done anything to deny the Tully claim to Riverrun. There should have been no need to negotiate passage at that time. A bird from Riverrun instructing Frey to open the gates should have been enough. But, as it happens, Frey is a disobedient lord, who always has a plausible excuse that no one ever truly believes to disobey his liege lord, which eventually led to his nickname "The Late Lord Frey". According to the rules of a feudal society like this, Hoster Tully should have been less forgiving and more strict with the Late Lord Frey, taking away lands in punishment for his behavior. But since Hoster was sick and Edmure wasn't savvy enough, and they had ended up the winners in Robert's rebellion, his actions had no consequence other than the nickname. Feudal law and politics are complicated. Even nowadays some of it is quite funny and still remains. I know the Laird of a Barony in Scotland, and according to the current law of the land, he owes his liege lord 25 mounted men, armed and able, and some other stuff if the shit hits the fan. Basically, if his Lord demands it he'd have to do it. So it was for Walder Frey at the time of the events we were discussing. Robb should not have had to negotiate anything with him. Frey should have opened the doors because the Tullys were asking. That was the only logical reason needed. But he didn't. He wanted to negotiate because he was a resentful, bitter old man, which is what my second paragraph addressed: his character. So, in this paragraph I explain why Frey was being an ass and demanding things. And then I mentioned that his bitterness was part of what led him to betray Robb in the Red Wedding, just another point to support what a resentful little shit he was. I should mention that even though there was no logical reason for Robb to negotiate passage with Lord Frey, he wisely chose to do so instead of demanding that the gates be opened. Robb needed to cross quickly, mounting a siege on the Twins from the North and asking his uncle Edmure to do the same from the south might have eventually led to the Twins falling, but it would have taken a long time. Time Robb didn't have, so he chose to do the political savvy thing and negotiate with Walder who took advantage of this opportunity to arrange advantageous marriages for his children. Now, there are some things you mention in the post quoted above that are not chronological and didn't happen that way. Edmure was captured during the Red Wedding, and the siege on Riverrun also happened after the Red Wedding. Robb's position wasn't as strong as before, but he wasn't losing. He still needed the Frey army so he went to the wedding to appease Lord Frey. Unbeknownst to Robb, Tywin had been communicating with Roose Bolton and Walder Frey through ravens, planning the Red Wedding. This is why Tywin says at one point that wars can be won without fighting. Had Frey fought for his liege Lord (Edmure Tully), and ousted Roose as a traitor to Robb, he would have still been on the winning side, but he wouldn't have had his daughter married to a King and he would still just own the Twins. Tywin offered him Riverrrun, by promising to make his son Emmon Frey (who was married to Genna Lannister) the Lord of Riverrun. This was a better deal to Frey, so he took it and betrayed Robb in the Red Wedding. There they captured Edmure and held onto him, while the Blackfish tried to keep Riverrun from being handed over to Emmon Frey. So the Lannisters and Freys lay siege to the castle until Jaime showed up to break the siege.

Seconded!!! I have been reluctant to comment on this chapter because I so hated book Sansa in this book.... but I don't think it's very rational for me to do so, you know, because as someone pointed out upthread she's eleven. But then, I think that Arya is even younger and they had the same parents and the same education. And yet, while Sansa is all immersed in the ridiculous medieval fantasies of knights and ladies and is deluding herself about Joffrey, Arya has the little sucker pegged for the psycho that he is and is off trying to learn how to fight with a sword. I don't know, early book Sansa always seemed a little dim to me.

It is interesting. Not that we can say that something like that is scientific, but I think, in general, the Starks are very popular with book readers and unsullied.

That's why I put Edmure's name in parenthesis. I don't think the Blackfish had the authority, but Edmure had been acting Lord for a while by the time Robb was declared King in the North. He was also the heir to Riverrun, so, his word should have suffice.