ShellsandCheese

Indeed. He is a mercenary. Most of the people listed make no sense. Although I did think of an interesting plot twist that could work. That being said, I think Jon and Dany's conversation at the waterfall is an important key to their future and fate. Sam and Davos would be good on a council, Tyrion along with Bronn, not so much. Also, there's no way there is a council without actual representation from The North (Bran doesn't count), The Vale, The Iron Islands, Riverrun, and whatever else is left in Westeros. While some great houses were wiped out, there are still parts of the country that are tied to certain families. We also cannot forget about Dorne, Highgarden; the ruling families may be dead but there are still going to be people and someone will need to represent their interests.

No, I didn't. And I specifically mentioned that because what we saw presented one story (Littlefinger playing both Sansa and Arya) with a sudden and swift resolution with nothing to indicate how Sansa and Arya went from being played to realizing they were being played, to turning the tables on Littlefinger. I was using it as an example of what's wrong with some of the storytelling on GoT. My point was, we shouldn't have to watch behind the scenes vignettes or have an actor explain after the fact, that things on the show went from point A to point B due to things unbeknownst to the audience. Sadly, I've noticed, especially in the later seasons of GoT that this happens a lot. We saw one thing - and then someone gives an interview and says, oh well this happened and it explains why you saw this story on screen, but we didn't show it.

I would imagine that there will also be a time jump of at least a few months from the end of 8.3 to the start of whatever is about to happen with Cersei; at least as far as any big battles go. Even if it's not spelled out maybe it would be inferred just based on what we know about travel times - but then again, Theon got to Winterfell real quick, lol.

It's a TV show. We go by what we see. And this is why showing is more important than telling. It's one thing to have clues that are easy to pick up on; it's another thing entirely to present something and then later tell the audience that this is what happened or this is how it should be interpreted.

Yes. Show me something that shows her wit and the ability to out maneuver others using her head. I have yet to see any of that. Littlefinger continued to play her last year and create conflict with Arya until Bran stepped in to tell them what was going on (deleted scene). She could help create the plan to get rid of Cersei. She could have spent the time in the crypts tactfully and subtlety learning more about Dany from Tyrion, Varys, and Missendei so that she could find an angle to advance her cause of Northern Independence. In her meeting with Dany in 8.2 she could have said the North is more valuable to you if we remain independent and here’s why. Hell, she could have been working Jon and trying to ensure a long standing alliance or marriage between him and Dany that guaranteed favorable terms to the North. But all I’ve seen is a lot of whinging. I know that she’s a survivor and she’s been through a lot but that doesn’t say anything about her intelligence. She wasn’t even able to successfully maneuver at Winterfell (while married to Ramsay) and there were people there still loyal to her family. This was after she supposedly learned so much from Cersei and Littlefinger. I’ll give props where props are due. And for me it’s not just about Sansa. I don’t think Dany is particularly politically savvy either. And we’re someone were to say she was the most intelligent person they know, I’d side eye that. But if someone were to say Dany is good at getting people to follow her and believe in her; I’d agree because I’ve seen it play out on screen.

Let’s say the series ends with some sort of council, Bran is still arguably their worst choice to be head of said council. If you’re head of a council you need to have a certain set of diplomatic skills and be able to and want to communicate clearly. Bran doesn’t do that. Also, the person would need to be as unbiased and fair as possible. That pretty much rules out most of the main cast because they all have an agenda, bias, and would want to secure special status for their interests.

Clearly, the smartest person Arya ever met was Tywin Lannister! Also, Tywin clearly knew what was going on with his kids, he just didn’t want to admit it or acknowledge it. But he knew. Seriously though, I do think that throw away line was dumb. And it’s another case of the writers telling instead of showing. I have yet to see anything from Sansa during the duration of this show that shows her to be particularly smart, clever, or intelligent. Perhaps there are examples that I’ve missed but I don’t think so. And it’s not a knock against Sansa, I’m not saying she’s dumb but again I’m still waiting on something, anything that illustrates how smart she is on the show. ETA: Margaery Tyrell was incredibly smart too, good at reading people, and good at playing the game. If not for the idiot high Septon, she’d probably still be Queen of Westeros.

I agree with those who say the recently posted leak just makes no sense for any of the main characters. They'd all have to do things that are really completely out of character when looking at their progression over the course of eight seasons. Especially with Dany. There is nothing to indicate that she would suddenly go mad to the point that she'd have to be killed by Jon. She just sacrificed her Khalasar to help Northerners who have been nothing but cold to her and her people when she could have just easily took her dragon babies to Kings Landing and been done with that. Let's not forget that Viserion died, because again, she was trying to help Jon get Cersei on board with his plan to fight the AOTD. Can she be impulsive? Yes. Can she be unyielding? Yes. But she's never been shown to be mad. In fact, the past seven seasons have shown that she is someone capable of change, growth, learning, and considering the advice/counsel of other people. She's never been mad. Even, when using her dragons she's calm and collected, and its for a very specific reason. It would totally feel out of left field to suddenly have her be just another Mad Queen (with Cersei being the first one); as equally out of left field as those who think Sansa or Bran should sit on the Iron Throne. Or that Sansa and Tyrion are going to live happily ever after.

LOL. I really hope the ending is not that Pollyanna. But what if we've been misunderstanding the prophecies. What if the AOTD was just a red herring and Cersei was the one who was going to bring an endless night (figuratively) all along. She could be the ice, because that woman is ice cold, lol.

From a story and plot perspective, it just doesn’t make sense this late in the game (with less than four hours left) to have Dany turn out to be the big bad. Especially, when it’s clear as day that Cersei is the big bad. If Jon kills Dany it will only be for shock value and I don’t see how it adds to the plot; unless he has to kill Dany (i.e. shove a sword in her to kill someone behind her). I would be disappointed if that was the ending because it just doesn’t jive with what we’ve seen so far of either Jon or Dany. And it’s consistent with their character development. I still think the scene in 8.1 was foreshadowing and that Jon and Dany go off on their dragons somewhere never to return after installing some sort of council to collectively rule the 7 kingdoms. Actually, I could see something like the commonwealth where their is a figurative head and a standard set of rules / laws and treaties but for the most part, everyone rules themselves.

Even a lady knows when it’s time to go into survival mode. I mean her mother was Catelyn Stark! She grabbed the handle of a Valaryan steel blade to protect one son and went down swinging during the Red Wedding. Sansa has never exhibited any of that kind of chutzpah.

I posted this in one of the episode threads. It occurred to me that if D&D really wanted to set Sansa up as some great strategic thinker, planner, and leader they still could have done so down in the crypts but chose not to. For example, instead of making snide comments about The Dragon Queen she could have been engaging Tyrion, Varys, and or Messandei in conversation to learn more about Dany. She should have been trying to tactically and tactfully pump them for information in order to find common ground or leverage that could have been used as a bargaining chip to discuss Northern Independence or better yet a strategic ally ship or partnership similar to what Dorne had under Targaryen rule. But she didn’t - and I can’t help thinking that it was intentional for some reason.

Plot point: Jon already bent the knee; nobody is asking the North to give up rule out of gratitude. The person who was named KITN already did that prior to battle. In real life, the sovereignty of countries fighting for the allies was only going to be threatened if they lost. In other words, can we stick to show and not try to compare it to real life historical events (other than the ones that GRRM took inspiration from) because the comparisons don’t really work. And if the North had smart and capable leaders (I’m not including Jon, because he bent the knee and doesn’t want to rule or lead anyway) they’d have already approached Dany with an alternative agreement that would have been beneficial to both. Although, I’m guessing most of the Northern lords are dead at this point though. Or Sansa could have had a useful conversation in the crypts with Tyrion or even Messendei, to learn more about Dany and she if she could find a common thread or leverage that could be used to bargain for Northern independence but that didn’t happen either.

This is such a simplistic view of history that it demands correction. The US did not help GB win WWII. The US formed an alliance with GB, The Soviet Union, China, and the other allies to defeat the axis powers. It wasn’t just the US and GB against the bad guys. Also, for what it’s worth most of the heavy lifting in Europe was done by the USSR. Had they not managed to hold out during the siege at Leningrad or not stopped Germany’s advance into the USSR - it likely would have been have been game over. As for Sansa, there are lots of ways Sansa going into the crypt could have played out and the version presented onscreen was not favorable to her. She offered no real comfort or reassurance to people she wants to be her subjects. And then even though she had dragon glass, she hid while other defenseless women and children were killed by wights. I’m sorry but a true leader would have done more.

Except Bran doesn’t seem to be interested in using his abilities to interfere with the natural order of things and Arya, while wanting to make sure her family is safe, hasn’t demonstrated the same obsession with Northern independence that Sansa has. In my opinion, Sansa’s carrying on about an independent North - an area that hasn’t really been independent for over 300 years - is just a cover for her not wanting to be a pawn again. Sansa doesn’t even know what it’s like to live in an independent North or what that entails - but she seems to think it will protect her from the Cersei’s and Ramsay’s of the world.

HBOGO is now referring to this episode title as “The Long Night”.

Sansa was such a huge disappoint in episode three. I was hoping she’d step up and show some leadership skills while down in the crypts with “her people” but nope. She just sat there looking pretty and annoyed for most of her time down there and then didn’t even try to help when the dead rose. Ugh.

Just have to add that Theon was a total badass defending / protecting Bran. And props to Dany for doing her best to fight alongside Jorah. Ditto for Grey Worm who was a total boss the entire episode.

Yeah. I don’t understand why everyone was suddenly all Sansa should sit on the Iron Throne, because she would be awful. Her entire arc thus far in season eight (and even the latter part of season seven) has shown this. She’s really good at being condescending towards people she doesn’t like and she’s really good at openly questioning the decisions of others but she really doesn’t bring much to the table beyond that. Sansa is driven by one thing and that’s not wanting to be a pawn again; that’s fine in dandy for certain situations and under certain circumstances but it doesn’t necessarily make someone wise or a good leader. She has shown on many occasions the inability to see the big picture and to choose vengeance over justice. Alas, the woman who said she wasn’t abandoning her people, cowers and hides in fear while her people get slaughtered. At least the likes of Arya, Dany, Jaime, Jon, Lyanna M., etc are willing to put their lives on the line and back up all of their big talk with action. Sansa has yet to prove herself in any meaningful way - at least from where I’m sitting.

This episode just solidified my love for the Unsullied. Easily one of the MVP’s of this episode, along with Arya and Melisandre. Everyone had their part to play, but if you remove any of those three it is game over for Westeros.

I loved the beginning with Melisandre lighting the swords of the Dothraki. That was pretty damn cool. Also, even though Arya was the one to bring down the NK. The North would have been toast without Dany’s army’. I really hope people show her some appreciation.

Not all. But probably most.

Is it that I’m most worried about Rhaegal and Ghost? Did they make it? I think Rhaegal was just injured. I suspected all along that Arya would be the hero. And it was very realistic to have her be; the show has been setting it up for seasons with the focus on her training and it paid off.

Yeah. Some of these interviews are ridiculous. Rule number one: show don’t tell. A good storyteller wouldn’t have to tell us via interviews which characters are badass or what the characters are thinking - they’d show us. Good example, Aragon in LOTR. Peter Jackson didn’t have to give a bunch of interviews talking about how great that character was, we saw it on the screen. I am still scratching my head when it comes to the show runners over the top praise top of Sansa. From where I’m sitting, she hasn’t done much and if not for Littlefinger’s obsession with Catelyn Stark the Knights of the Vale wouldn’t have come to the Stark’s aid in the BoTB. I’m still waiting to see her great military strategy when it comes to defeating the AOTD, her plans for reconstruction, rebuilding the seven kingdoms, etc.

I'm totes confused about this North independence business. Weren't they under the rule of the Targs for at least 300 years and then under the rule of Robert Baratheon until Robb was declared King in the North. They haven't really been independent for the last three odd centuries. Were things that bad under the Targ rule? Or under Robert?