ShellsandCheese

Shhh. Quit talking sense. Above all else, the ruling class wants to remain the ruling class. That's why I scoff at all of Tyrion's defenders claiming he was all about the people, ditto for Varys. They were for certain people, preferably people in power that could be molded, shaped, and manipulated - and that could help them in the long run. That's why I have a hard time believing that people still root for certain people to get the The Throne. The whole premise of the show is that The Throne is the problem. As a result, there are only two realistic endings: 1. The Throne is destroyed and the realm goes back to how it was pre-Targaryen conquest 2. A total tyrant sits on the throne to keep everybody in check but the intrigue behind the scenes results in a never-ending cycle of violence and destruction

More than anything I hate how badly Jon Snow has been written since HH. It’s ridiculous. Hate hate hate it.

Yes. Because we must be reminded that Dany killed thousands of innocent people. Tens of thousands of innocent people after the bells rang. We must be reminded that we need to care about all those poor innocents so that the audience cheers when Dany gets what’s coming to her.

Here's a good video that sums up why a lot of people are not happy with episode 5. Foreshadowing is not character development. I personally think he is spot on in his assessment.

King's Landing isn't Mereen and Tyrion himself said the people were too scared to rise up against Cersei - so again, I don't know why he thought a siege/blockade would work. It's just another example in a long list of characters doing and saying things to fit into the plot for that moment, even if it's contradictory to something the character had already said or done.

If Dany had taken King's Landing and the Red Keep when she wanted, there would have been a lot less civilian casualties than we ended up with during 8.5. Also, some of Tyrion's other plans weren't exactly designed to eliminate civilian casualties. He wanted to do a siege and blockade knowing that the food stores were almost non-existent, so yeah, let's just let the people starve to death instead.

This is a good summation of why people's reactions to episode five weren't probably what D&D were hoping they would be;

It’s obvious that D&D have set out to dehumanize Dany and “other” her to ensure that people won’t object to whatever her fate may be. In 8.5 we don’t even see her face again once she decides to raze King’s Landing. Same with the promo, we see Tyrion’s face, Arya, Jon, but only the back of Dany. Interesting choices. I also wanted to bring something over from another thread. If you look at Dany’s character arc over the last few seasons it has entirely revolves around her trying to do the right thing, listening to her advisors, and making herself smaller to appease others and it got her absolutely nowhere. No wonder she finally decided to be a dragon.

LOL. At this point HBO should just end everyone’s misery and go ahead start streaming the finale. I’ve never seen a show fall apart this spectacularly. I just don’t get it.

Why wound Tyrion of all people get to mete out justice? Why would GreyWorm lock up Jon and not kill him on the spot? Since when do the Dothraki follow GreyWorm? Does he speak Dothraki? Do they speak Valyrian? Also, Sansa wouldn’t be represented Winterfell - it would be Jon. Gah.

I think this kind of a crap argument. Dany’s ancestors may have killed some of Sansa’s ancestors; people that neither of them knew. But Sansa has no problem with Tyrion? A person who’s living family is responsible for the deaths of Sansa’s mother, father, older brother, younger brother, the crippling of another brother, and resulted in her sister training to be an assassin. If Sansa should have an issue with anyone based on family ties, it would be Tyrion not Dany.

That sounds dumb as fuck - which probably means it’s true. 🤷🏽‍♀️😂 I’m sorry but it bugs me that Tyrion would be rewarded for his stupidity and why would these random group of people decide that Bran should be King. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Because it’s a fictional TV show and the showrunners keep carrying on about how they don’t want a typical ending and they want to subvert expectations and tropes.

The Northern forces were more than happy to take part in the mayhem. They aren't exactly angels.

This is why I want Dany to go full on Aegon I. That would be quite the ending; but I’m sure she’ll be quickly disposed of in the most ridiculous way fathomable.

I disagree with this. The North loves a winner. Did everyone forget about season six when Sansa could hardly get any of the great houses to go fight again Ramsay Bolton. They didn't come around until after the battle was won, and even then, they made Jon Snow - bastard son of Ned Stark KITN; not Sansa Stark. The Vale came because of Peter Baelish, and that was because he had loved Catelyn Stark and was transferring that to Sansa. If Baelish had never loved Catelyn, I doubt the Knights of the Vale would have even bothered.

I totally disagree about Varys. There was nothing that Dany did from the moment Varys met up with her to the time that he ended up trying to poison her that would justify him betraying her like that. The only things that I can tell that he didn't like were, her burning the Tarly's. Also, Varys didn't really care about the realm - sure he liked to tell himself that but someone who really cared about the realm wouldn't have been working behind the scenes to sow the kind of chaos that results in a war that will largely impact commoners. Varys is quite frankly, full of shit. And he wanted Jon because he saw that Jon would be easy to manipulate.

I really don't think Sansa cares that much. All she wants is to be left alone to rule the North. Also, if nothing else, the last episode showed that Jon would be a crappy King. His own forces didn't listen to him and went about unleashing their rage on the women and children of KL. While it did appear that at least the Unsullied and Dothraki only attacked men (but I could be wrong). Say what you want about Dany but her people do listen to her. As soon as Grey Worm knew she wasn't relenting he followed her lead. I don't think she'd renege if she actually ruled (and that's looking doubtful). That's why I'll never understand why instead of being a snot, Sansa didn't try to negotiate for Northern Independence. Everyone wants to proclaim that she's so smart, well if she were so smart, she would have seen that what Dany wanted was to be loved and appreciated and she would have flattered the fuck out of her to get what she wanted - not approach her with hostility. How Sansa handled her approach to Dany was enough to convince me that all the talk about Sansa being so smart was just BS.

I disagree. It's possible the outcome would have been different if you know, Varys had actually had a conversation with her (as he promised to do) instead of immediately resorting to trying to kill her. And for what exactly? Grieving the loss of friends and her dragon. Being upset that everything that she's been working towards was about to go to shit because out of the blue, suddenly at the last hour, there's a Targaryen with a better claim than hers. Varys never had an issue with anything Dany did, other than perhaps burning the Tarly's. There was nothing that happened between that and him trying to poison her that would suggest that he suddenly saw some madness in her that absolutely frightened him. In fact, all she did in between was try to help other people.

Were Vary's concerns well rooted though? Prior to this season, the only issue Varys had with Dany was that she killed the Tarly's - and all of a sudden after she helps defeat the WW and takes some heavy losses he's concerned that she'll go mad to the point where he is actively trying to poison her and get everyone else to follow Jon Snow without so much as a conversation with Dany. I don't think Tyrion is a Targ. Either for purposes of the show or in the books. Tyrion was someone who was always trying to help his family; maybe he didn't even realize he was doing it. Basically, Tyrion and Varys have been giving Dany bad advice for the last few seasons under the guise of it being better for the innocents when really it appears they both were biding time because neither was really all in for Dany. Dany should have taken King's Landing and the Red Keep when she first arrived as she planned. If she had one could argue that all three of her "children" would still be alive, not to mention that she may not have loss Jorah and Missendei. As others have said, I think that's why Dany was so angry. She realized once the bells rang out just how easy it all was and she was pissed about all of the time she pissed away and all the unnecessary loss she suffered listening to Tyrion (who continued to try and save his family until the last moment) and Varys (who broke a promise to her and was trying to kill her). I've decided at this point, there really is no way to have an authentic conclusion to this series. It's going to be fan service and hokey. It's also going to be full of tropes - I can see it now.

I agree. And 80 minutes is not enough to wipe out all of the loose ends. Let's say Dany dies, what happens to The Unsullied, The Dothraki, and Drogon? Do they just scamper away peacefully? That should be the ending, Aegon the Conqueror reborn. But D&D don't have the balls to go there - they actually stick to tropes while saying they want to break them.

She wanted to but kept getting talked out of it by Varys and Tyrion. Ultimately, I think that’s why she went on that rampage. When those bells rang out, she realized that she should have followed her instincts all along and taken King’s Landing as she initially planned. She’d probably still have all her dragons and her besties.

And it will spawn enough fanfic to last a thousand years 😂

Upon rewatch, I can see that Dany didn’t destroy the whole city. Mostly, the areas around The Red Keep. Yeah. She wanted to make sure Cersei didn’t escape. I’m sure she knew that Tyrion was trying to help his sister to the very end.

Actually it wasn’t fine. There wasn’t any military conflict at least for a while, but there was still lots of maneuvering behind the scenes - it’s Roberts crappy reign that’s basically led to everything that has happened in the show. With seven independent kingdoms they won’t be drawn into the petty skirmishes that may be happening within individual kingdoms. With the current set-up, as soon as something happens - everybody has to pick a side. It ramps up hostility and casualties real quick.