kicotan

"Meri will never be happy because she wants two things that are mutually exclusive: to be in a plural marriage, and to have a fulfilling, loving, secure relationship. Plural marriage is only "successful" in communities that do not value women, and do not place any importance in women's personal happiness." I disagree with the blanket statement that the two are mutually exclusive. I have witnessed personally, non-Mormon forms of polygamous relationships that were healthy and happy. Being monogamous does not necessarily guarantee marital bliss. "Meri, you can't be a modern, fulfilled, respected and happy woman AND be a plural wife. If you choose to stay, you need to give up the illusion that you will ever be happy or have "a place" in the family or with Kody. NOT going to happen, it can't. A man can not be a true partner or truly care about a woman's happiness if he is not 100% invested in her. Which...not possible when you have other wives." Again, I disagree with the blanket statement that monogamy is the ONLY way to be fulfilled, respected and happy as a woman. Especially the "modern" part. Modern women are choosing and shaping their relationships to suit themselves more now than ever before. If being in a polygamous relationship is their choice, they shouldn't be chastised for not choosing monogamy. "Choose yourself, and leave Kody, but that means you have to face the fact that your religion is bad for you. You're not on the compound, you don't need Kody for money or safety. Letting go of the idea that plural marriage "makes you better" is the first step. Stop competing with other women for a crumb of a meaningful connection with a man who only cares about himself." There are plenty of religions that put stock in the idea that suffering is part of what one goes through in order to be right in the eyes of Their God. Some seek it out, as penance or as a way of being closer to their spiritual self. Arguably, many religions can be seen as "bad for you", if your goal is to pursue only your personal desires. I'm not a polygamist~I couldn't do it, even for blessings from my Creator~but I disagree that polygyny is, in and of itself, the basis for Meri's awkward position in relation to her husband and sister-wives or any more detrimental than monogamy as a choice for women.

Taking my response over to the polygamy discussion thread to avoid getting in trouble here.

I'd disagree about the age qualifier. Only because I'm over 50 and don't "need" a bra. I think it has more to do with breast size. Renee had issues with her weight from childhood, so if her breasts were on the large end of the scale at puberty, all that weight she's been carrying over the years + gravity has definitely taken its toll. My mom said her grandmothers hung so low she'd cross them over herself before stuffing them into a bra! In my case, I was an A cup, barely a B, tall and thin until I had children in my early twenties. That added a bit to my overall size/volume but since I've never been overweight, they settled into a B cup after lactation subsided. I've been accused of having reconstructive surgery because mine are still "perky" over 50, but the reality is that I've not the genetics for large breasts to begin with, I've no obesity issues and I've stayed away from artificial support for the majority of my life.

"Kody says their faith “recommends” plural marriage?? I hadn’t heard that before. So does that mean he DOESNT need three wives to get his own planet? And Meri won’t go to hell if she decides to move on to a happier situation?" Brought this over here from the episode thread~ It is my understanding that the Brown's basis for their polygamist lifestyle is their religious/spiritual faith in that they practice the original form of Mormonism before the official LDS church denounced polygamy so that the federal government wouldn't confiscate their real estate, not recognize them as a church anymore and stop prosecuting them for breaking the law of the land. Im not sure how that works as far as Kody getting his own planet, but Mormons may divorce, repent, be forgiven and move on to marry someone else, without damnation to hell. From the official LDS site: "If, instead of resorting to divorce, each individual will seek the comfort and well-being of his or her spouse, couples will grow in love and unity. The gospel of Jesus Christ—including repentance, forgiveness, integrity, and love—provides the remedy for conflict in marriage. Those who have caused a divorce through their own poor choices can repent and be forgiven. Those whose marriages have failed because of what others have done can receive strength and comfort from the Lord, who promised: ”Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. … For my yoke is easy, and my burden light” (Matthew 11:28, 30)."

Taking my response to this over to the polygamy discussion thread so as not to get in trouble here.

The Game portion where they show the clip~Meri is at the candy store buying caramels because she couldn't be arsed to make Kody's mom's recipe for the cook-off and she's going to pass them off as if she made them with the quote "Lying is ok as long as you tell the truth afterwards"= Wow. She's prophetic and gets no cred for it on top of all her other woes.

I'm going with the narrative technique ~ the disheveled "victim of catfishing"/empty nester/platonic relationship at best with her spiritual husband/not feeling safe and having to be guarded Meri vs. all the other wives that don't have any issues with their shared husband/still in the romantic rotation/don't necessarily trust her but still want her to be around. Mr. Kicotan said "where's all the other wive's outrage over having to put up with Kody every 3rd night now instead of every 4th?" Lol

This was one of the saddest episodes I've seen. All around. I felt sorry for her for her situation and equally as sorry for her kids for having to deal with her situation, more than most. Maybe it is because she didn't seem too bright to begin with, I don't know. How she managed to only lose 8 pounds in two months on her own was pretty amazing, unless they didn't film the take-out she had delivered, but that whole deal about her kidney failure and heart failure and not being able to breathe~my goodness, if that isn't a wake up call to stop stuffing your face with KFC, what is?

Amen. She excuses her obesity in lots of ways. It's the PCOS. It's a middle finger to society's oppressive beauty norms. It's either this fabulous fatness or bulimia. It's never health/quality of life. Oh what am I saying there were a couple of episodes in a previous season where she was sliding down the slippery slope into diabetes if she didn't make lifestyle changes and she got involved with Will the trainer to lose a few pounds. But that's it. Not a mention of it since and I'm willing to bet she gained back everything she lost working with him. But, yeah lets just eat a bag of Cheetos and plan to adopt a baby.

I came across this interview from NPR with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich who states that for Mormon women living in 19th century Utah, "plural marriages" were empowering in complicated ways. For example, in other states during Joseph Smith's time, when a woman married, she became civilly "dead" in that she had no say over her property or money, but had to have her father or husband petition the court on her behalf, nor could she divorce for any other reason than adultery. "...ULRICH: And men did that more easily than women. But bigamy was pretty common in the 19th century. What's interesting about the Mormons is they sanctified new relationships for women who had fled abusive or alcoholic husbands. A number of these married both monogamously and polygamous among the Latter-day Saints. And they were welcomed into the community and not stigmatized. One woman said that when Joseph Smith married her, even though she was legally married to somebody in South Carolina - you know, it was a long ways away - it was like receiving golden apples in baskets of silver. That is, she was not an outcast woman. She was a woman who had made her own choice and had left a bad situation, and now she was going to enter a relationship with a man she could admire..." https://www.npr.org/2017/01/17/510246850/how-mormon-polygamy-in-the-19th-century-fueled-womens-activism

After reading the mod note on the episode thread, I just wanted to say that I shared the above links merely to give some context and historical background to the polygyny on the Sister Wives show as well as share what I thought were interesting articles to read with others It was not and is not my intent to discuss any other religion's polygamy or polygyny.

"...In 1998 the University of Wisconsin surveyed more than a thousand societies. Of these just 186 were monogamous. Some 453 had occasional polygyny and in 588 more it was quite common. Just four featured polyandry. Some anthropologists believe that polygamy has been the norm through human history. In 2003, New Scientist magazine suggested that, until 10,000 years ago, most children had been sired by comparatively few men. Variations in DNA, it said, showed that the distribution of X chromosomes suggested that a few men seem to have had greater input into the gene pool than the rest. By contrast most women seemed to get to pass on their genes. Humans, like their primate forefathers, it said, were at least "mildly polygynous"..." https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/the-big-question-whats-the-history-of-polygamy-and-how-serious-a-problem-is-it-in-africa-1858858.html

Also, some tribes in the Native American culture had some interesting customs regarding polygamy: "Polygyny (the marriage of one man to several women) was common among many of the Southern Plains tribes. As a normal pattern, the second wife would be the sister of the first wife (a practice known as sororal polygyny). In general, there were two advantages to this form of polygyny. First, it was generally acknowledged that sisters don’t often fight and thus marriage to sisters helped reduce tension in the household. Second, marriage was an economic relationship and this meant that the husband would have economic obligations to only one other family." "To understand polyandry, it must be understood that most Indian societies were egalitarian and that women were not owned by men. Thus, a woman could choose to be married to two or more men. In some instances, the second husband would be the younger brother of her first husband. In many tribes, the younger brother would live with his older brother and sexually share his older brother’s wife as he matured into adulthood." http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/tag/marriage

I found this rather interesting: "Inheritance: In In re Bir’s Estate, 83 Cal. App. 2d 256 (1948), the California Court of Appeal held that California would recognize a foreign polygamous marriage for the purposes of intestate succession. Though California public policy might lead to a different result “if decedent had attempted to cohabit with his two wives in California,” “[w]here only the question of descent of property is involved, ‘public policy’ is not affected.” Both wives were thus allowed to share equally in the decedent’s property. Earlier authorities took a similar view as to other aspects of financial settlement. Thus, the Restatement (First) of Conflict of Laws (1934), offered this illustration: “A, domiciled in state X, validly marries B and C in X. By the law of Y, a polygamous marriage is void. A brings B and C to state Y; Y may refuse to permit him to cohabit with them. A and B die; Y may grant a widow’s allowance to C.” The children of the second and later wives could also be treated as legitimate, back when more legal rules turned on legitimacy. Back to the Restatement: A validly marries three wives, first B, then C, and D, in state X [here “state" would likely mean a foreign country -EV]. By the law of state Y, a polygamous marriage is invalid. A has an only son, M, by his wife C; M is legitimate by the law of their domicil. A dies, leaving land in Y. M may inherit the land unless the law of Y imposes some requirement in addition to legitimacy for inheritance. There were similar decisions in the late 1800s and early 1900s in cases involving American Indians who had entered into polygamous marriages recognized under tribal law." https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/05/polygamous-foreign-marriages-under-u-s-law/?utm_term=.a774d369711f

Well, to be fair, there are communities and even an entire state that are referred to as "sanctuary" which could technically be called "immigration crime communities". That being said, I believe that abusive behaviors in ANY church community should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, regardless of the denomination. I'm well aware that many folks believe that practicing polygamy in and of itself is abusive, even if the participating members are consenting, peace-loving adults who don't rely on government hand-outs to support their family, but I disagree.

Todd's comments (and face) to her regarding adopting a baby with Tal (while they were in the car going to Charleston...whoops, Charlotte?...) was EVERYTHING!!! "the same child?"~priceless! I browsed some of her Instagram posts and she states there that she weighs 380, same amount as when she started on the show and that it has not, is not and will not be her intention to lose ANY weight. She's blissfully happy at 380. Not that there is anything wrong with that, BUT if she is going to mother a child, it would seem to me that her limitations (needing others to assist with her hygiene, for example) would make it very difficult.

Maybe I don't understand very well how the wheels of justice turn, but didn't Laverne say she had to stick around for the trial? If Ronnie confessed, why would there be a trial?

Check out these doozies: “It's not a hard-and-fast rule, but I believe that one of the key factors in being a good sister wife is having the ability to see the needs of another sister wife and considering her needs more important than your own.” “I would never trade my experience with sister wives and the wonderfully large and dynamic family we share for the simplicity of monogamy. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.” ― Meri Brown, Becoming Sister Wives: The Story of an Unconventional Marriage (2012) I'd LOVE to see an honest answer from Meri as to if she ever believed those two statements to be true and if so, does she still? I remember back in the early seasons they showed them gathering together in one of their living rooms for "church", but it seems with the more recent seasons they've backed off from proselytizing anything other than the plural marriage part. I'm not even sure if the AUB even counts them as members.

Exactly! Ever see the "reality" show Jersey Shore? They do NOT represent the fine folk that hail from the Garden State.

If polygamy was acceptable in our society and not seen as something immoral/taboo then The Brown's probably wouldn't have such a following/ratings... or even a SHOW for that matter. I'm pretty sure most of their trending revenue is propped up that way. Scandal, taboos and sex SELLS. I'm actually surprised that there are so many people who believe this farce of a show actually depicts the reality of the majority of folks who practice plural marriage as Fundamentalist Mormons. For me, it would be like believing the cast of "Jersey Shore" represents everyone that lives in New Jersey.

Nope. plenty of folks are enraptured/titillated with online/text/phone romance. Doesn't mean they have any intention of leaving their spouse(s)~and it could have happened at a time when they were emotionally vulnerable and not necessarily ? in their marriage. Honest mistake vs intentional undermining. If Therapist Nancy was genuine, we would probably have heard that psychobabble already.

yes, this did occur to me. Absolutely... just like everything else that whips viewers into a frenzy about the allegedly "sick and wrong" polygamist lifestyle. These people DON'T give two shits about what all y'all think about their religion, lifestyle and choices. It is merely fodder for a fake "reality" show that is their main source of income. People will do what most of us think are unthinkable things for $$$~the Browns are a perfect example.

FWIW, Meri's online/text/phone flirtations could have been an honest mistake on Meri's part, but the potential for scandal and humiliation if they created a storyline whereby she would leave it all was just too sweet of a ratings grabber deal to pass up. Why wouldn't she go along with it? Public humiliation is part and parcel of what this show is based on. They KNOW most folks don't go for the polygamy thing...just look at the responses about it in this forum alone...so anything that ramps up the drama quotient with regards to it fits right into the conflict model the producers push. As far as Therapist Nancy is concerned~ she's a prop. Unethical starts with having a camera crew filming for a reality show inside of therapy sessions, if indeed they are "real". As long as it's just a script for a show, she's got no ethical obligation to call anyone (Meri) out on their obvious bullshit, because it's in the script. She's a paid actor on a reality show, not a therapist conducting REAL sessions.

Considering this: "The term ‘humilitainment’ was coined by media psychologists to describe the tendency for viewers to be attracted to scenes of humiliation or mortification, for example bullying, nudity and drunken antics." https://www.psychologies.co.uk/culture/real-life-vs-reality-tv.html "I once had a woman cast as a villain who turned out to be the nicest lady ever. As producer, I sat her down and said, “Listen, you were cast in this role. If you want to make good TV, if you want the series to come back and make more money next year, then you need to play along. If you don’t, you’re going to be cut out entirely.” It worked." https://www.rd.com/culture/13-secrets-reality-tv-show-producers-wont-tell-you/ "I'd say the main thing is conflict, regardless of what the conflict is over. You can't have any TV show without there being some sort of dramatic conflict. Not every scene is geared toward that, but I'd say shows are all geared toward searching for conflict, exploiting that conflict, and amping it up." https://www.refinery29.com/2016/11/128007/reality-tv-shows-producer-behind-the-scenes It wouldnt surprise me AT ALL if the Brown Clan are all happy with their relationships, content in their polygamous life and glad they sold their souls for the $$$ and attention. Everything else is just scripted drama that generates ratings and funnels fans to their various businesses (The Sisterwives Closet, LuLaWhatever, Strive, etc.), as well as their pet project to legalize polygamy.

I would agree with you on the "Big Love" precedent, but I also think that the raid on Warren Jeff's digs in 2008 probably helped the green light shine on the Sister Wives reality project. Sex, scandal and taboo sells.