Reganne

I agree. And really, the heavens only showed a couple of memories from both of the boys. Not all their happy memories. I mean, if you really wanted to read into these heaven memories, and blame Sam for his not including Dean.... I want to ask why doesn't Dean's happy memories have John in them? In fact, Deans early happy heaven memory appears specifically at a time where John isn't present. Does that mean Dean was happier when John wasn't around? On top of that, why does his Sam memory only include a younger Sam? Does Dean prefer Sam when he was younger? Does he not have happy memories with Sam as an adult? After all, you are a completely different person as an adult than you were as a child. I mean you could really dissect these couple of memories that appear in each of their heavens and come up with various conclusions. At the end of it, both boys have a right to feel the way they feel, but I personally feel that some of the people in the fandom criticize Sam too much for his memories not including Dean and how that makes him an unappreciative brother to Dean. For the record, I'm not criticizing Dean for his memories. Just making observations on how they could be portrayed. I believe both boys had no control over their memories.

That's a good point about the community. As it stands now, they don't pay anything for the bunker. Technically the left over BMOL know about the bunker as well.

To me it just doesn't make sense that they see it as ok that the bunker is known to their enemies but not to a random person. Why would their enemies care if the bunker is secret? Like Lucifer for example, I don't think he cares if the bunker is secret or not.

I'm sure they could manage if there is a road that goes past it.

That's the thing though, the bunker hasn't been secret for a long time. All their enemies already know about it's existence and where to find them... including Lucifer and Ketch. I think Dean would have mentioned it at that point though if Cas had of helped him.

LOL. But seriously when you order or buy large items, chances are they deliver them to your house.

But what exactly was Dean's plan? Say yes to Michael and then what?

I always seem to think I am of the opposite from what people say on here. Most people here seem to think Sam is the favourite of the writers, however I haven't seen Sam do anything of importance for most of this season. Everyone was concerned last year when Dean hadn't had kills from episode 12- 20 and some saying that it meant that Sam was writers favourite. Now Sam hasn't had a kill since episode 7 of season 13 when he killed stunt demon number 3 and people are still saying that Sam is the favourite. I can't understand how Sam is the favourite one, yet they aren't doing anything with his character. It's forgotten because the narrative put the blame on Sam in season 5 and forgot all about Deans contribution to breaking the first seal. I think the difference was in their plans. Dean was essentially giving up by saying yes to Michael while Sam was actually saying yes to Lucifer as a means of stopping the apocalypse.

Not trying to change your mind. Just clarifying why I see it that way. At this point I don't think many people change their mind on the way they see things... including me.

For me, his hubris in season 4 lead to killing Lilith and raising Lucifer. The way Sam acted and came across in season 5 was much different for me. Even until the end when he confronts Lucifer to say yes, he appears more frightened than confident. Almost like he's trying to hide his fear and put up a front on his confidence for the others, but you can still see that the fear is there. That to me doesn't come across as hubris as he wasn't entirely confident in himself at least to me in the way that Jared played it. You can be successful without having Hubris. The difference in season 4 is that Sam didn't show that fear. He had that overconfidence and pride in himself that he could kill Lilith. In the end, the results turned out to be more of a disaster than Lilith. Sam's redemption for me was jumping into the cage and bringing Lucifer with him. Him sacrificing himself for the better of the world and taking the consequences of staying in the cage in hell himself with Lucifer. As Sam put it, he was the one who let him out, so he should be the one to put him back.

I agree completely about Sam in season 8,9, 10 and 11. For me, there was no redemption for Sam in those seasons. I also didn't see any hubris in those situations as well. If Sam received and had redemption for having hubris at any point in the series, it was his redemption at the end of season 5 for the hubris that he showed in season 4 while hopped up on demon blood. IMO, Dean showed his hubris while going after Abaddon like you said and also when he went after Metatron. Of course this was when he had the MOC. I guess one could say he faced consequences after going after Metatron though since he was ultimately killed and turned into a demon.

The MOC arc ran longer than Souless Sam and Gadreel put together. TBH though, I could have done without Gadreel altogether. I love the Souless Sam arc though, so complaints from me there. As far as Dean being NotDean. I am ok with that. I would rather Dean be someone else than Sam at this point. Maybe because we have seen Sam as someone else before and I would rather them explore Sam's character in these later seasons. I just hope it's an interesting character for Dean. If it does turn out to be Michael, I hope they make him more interesting than he has been in the series so far. Overall, that would make for a better season/finale.

I actually wouldn't mind Sam getting more of the POV/emotional arc towards the end of this season. I'm not sure if that is where they're heading, but I would love them to explore Sam a bit more. I have felt that they don't really do that (POV/Emotions) much when it comes to Sam in this series... at least not with the emotional stuff and with what they've been through, I think it would only be a natural progression. Maybe with Dean being NotDean, they will give us more of this POV with Sam? I know they have shown us a few words leading into some emotional stuff here and there in season 13, and that's a start. I'm just waiting to see if they actually follow through with it and give him some type of closure. As far as Sam being limp, I do think the spoilers Jared spoke of about Sam do sound like there is a LimpSam in store for us. Of course we won't know for sure until the episode airs. Considering that Jared has already filmed these scenes and Jensen hasn't filmed NotDean, there is a chance that it's not the role reversal for Swan Song.... but more of an incident that leads to Dean becoming NOtDean. I think I would have actually preferred a Swan Song reversal where the memories of Sam make Dean strong enough to overtake NotDean, but I guess I will just have to wait and see what they do with everything to see if I like it or not.

I guess I just don't understand it. Maybe someone wants to know about both characters. And I have seem Dean fans do the same thing when Jared talks about Sam.

Maybe Jared shares more about future Sam than Jensen does with Dean. This was from a recent interview... you can't just expect Jared to stay quiet on his character just bc you guys feel you don't get to hear enough about Dean prior to episodes. There hasn't been anything interesting for Sam in seasons IMO and this new information isn't all that interesting or different for Sam for me either. The only thing he has done lately is get hit over the head and knocked out multiple times. Getting the crap beat out of him is essentially continuing that trend IMO.

To be fair if we got something on Sam, Dean fans would be asking what's in store for Dean. Also... just bc we find out something is in store for Sam, that doesn't take away getting something for Dean. So really I don't see the problem here with asking about a character on the show that's not Dean.

It just might. Then again, if it doesnt it would show that Dean was actually better at gaining control over Michael/Azazel/whoever than Sam was over Lucifer.

If its going to be a role reversal of Swan Song, then yeah. Sam will get the crap beat out of him allowing Dean to gain posession of his body or what not. Sam will likely have some part to play.

TBH, they haven't really wrote anything good for Sam lately either..... IMO. Lately, Sam's biggest accomplishment is constantly getting hit over the head and getting knocked out. Most of the story lines seem to be going to the supporting characters like Jack and Lucifer. I don't really mind that, but I get confused when everyone is saying that Sam is supposedly getting a good story arc coming up because the writers love to write for him. Personally, I find Michael to be an uninteresting character, so I don't want him to be interested in Sam. Dean is a more interesting character than Michael, so I prefer Jensen to play Dean. IMO, if they are going to have Jensen play another character other than Dean or have Dean possessed, I would want it to be a character that is more interesting IMO. TBH, I don't think Michael is going to be possessing anyone else. Alternate Michael has his vessel already and seems to be perfectly content with it and our Michael is in no shape to fight as he is too busy singing show tunes. If anything, I think it is going to come down to Jack vs Alternate Michael. I think that's what they're setting up.

I agree. And to add to that, the first thing Sam says to Dean at the end of Lucifer Rising after Ruby is killed is "I'm sorry." He had apologized to Dean even before season 5 started. He showed plenty of remorse through out the course of season 5 and IMO got the redemption he needed at the end of season 5.

I think sometimes people like to see their favourite characters make up for the mistakes they have made. I know I do, especially if sole character is the one mostly responsible for it and the one getting blamed for it.

The problem with this for me is it's almost as if it's like Sam is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If it was suppose to be his redemption for season 8, it wasn't a very good one considering his actions caused far more horrible consequences here than in season 8.

I don't think we have been saying Dean is worse than Sam. Just because you give examples of how Sam might feel, that doesn't mean he has it worse. Just giving another POV.

I agree. And good point about mystery spot. It kind of set up the fact that Sam wasnt going to turn to Bobby in his grief and wrath. I also agree about both brothers at times have done things that are partially selfish and have done things that hurt the other.

I don't think it's fair to expect Sam to honor everything Dean wanted him to do when he was grieving. Also, Sam asked Dean not to try and save him while he was in the cage, but Dean did so anyway. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Ruby thing and the writing. As far as John being responsible for Dean selling his soul, I have to disagree with that as well. Dean made his own decision. John asked him to save Sam or kill him. Meaning stop Sam from going bad and if he can't kill him. Yes, what John did affected his children, but it didn't make Dean sell his soul. The mere fact that John sold his soul for Dean's life shows me that John wanted both his sons alive. He wasn't a perfect dad by any means, but I do believe he cared for both of his sons.