Reganne

Dean also goes behind Sam's back and does things. A big example being Gadreel in season 9. Does that mean Sam shouldn't trust Dean? And Sam came clean pretty quick in season 12. Also, I have no doubt Dean would have done the same thing in season 10 if the situation were reversed and Sam was the one with the MOC. I mean in season 4, Dean didn't tell Sam they were planning to lock him in the panic room in an attempt to rid him of Demon Blood until they tricked him into going into the panic room. He went behind his back and made plans with Bobby. Also, did Dean ever tell Sam that he tried to commit suicide in Red Meat in attempt to bring Sam back who he thought was dead?

I didn't say he didn't apologize for it. I said it was warranted. Sam's sorry in Lucifer Rising didn't have a but, nor did it in Sympathy for the Devil when he was talking to Bobby. Heck, Sam even just stood there and took it when possessed Bobby was saying to lose his number. The only time Sam added a but into it was in Fallen Idols and that was only because of the way Dean was treating him in regards to their working together. Sam didn't just want to be bossed around for the rest of his life while hunting, so he spoke up. And yes, I know normally Dean isn't as bossy as he was in Fallen Idols, but in that episode he really was. I didn't say hurt feelings trump bodily harm. I said both brothers should have apologized in that situation. I just don't think getting strangled negates any wrong doing on Dean's part, especially considering Dean called him a monster prior to any physical contact between them. So to me, that's not really a reason to excuse Dean's wrong doings.

Just because Dean got strangled, that doesn't mean he didn't have anything to apologize for. He did call Sam a monster. I think that did deserve an apology. Just like with Sam's apology at the end of Lucifer Rising. That was warranted as well. I can forgive Dean's giving Sam the ultimatum he gave him after just being strangled as being a heat of the moment thing that didn't need an apology though. And yes, sometimes no apology Sam gives will ever be enough either. There are times that Sam does try to apologize but gets brushed off by Dean before he is able to make an apology and it just simply doesn't count to some people even though the intent is in Sam's mind.

The only issues Sam had with Dean during that conversation was the way he was acting. He was just upset that he wouldn't have the chance to have any kind of relationship with Mary. I think Sam showed his jealousy about Mary always going to Dean first for everything, but you can be jealous of someone without blaming them for it. That's how I see it. YMMV.

This is my thoughts exactly. Yes, Sam threw the knife and I do like that he got to be involved in the kill. However, I think this is more comparable to the end of season 5. Dean brought the assist to Sam at the end of Swan Song. He was the one who brought the army man to the scene. This army man brought memories to Sam's subconscious and allowed him to overcome Lucifer. Without that assist, Sam would not have succeeded in putting Lucifer in the cage either, but I know there are people who weren't happy with Dean's role in Swan Song despite the fact that Sam wouldn't have succeeded without Dean's assist.

Yes, they all get knocked around a bit, but in the last 13 episodes of season 13, it has happened way more than usual to Sam. 8 of those episodes out of 13 saw Sam being knocked out or taken and 3 of the leftover 5 episodes where Sam managed to remain conscious/unkidnapped, Sam didn't really do or accomplish anything in terms of killing monsters/evil. I think the only two episodes where he accomplished something in terms of killing monsters etc and didn't get knocked out were scooby doo and exodus. Even in Bring em Back Alive, Sam had to be saved by Cas from the demons raiding the bunker. I think it's because us fans want more for Their favs. They are hunters. They have more experience now. They shouldn't be worse at their jobs now.

Staying conscious. Getting taken and having to be saved all the time. When he attempted to Lead in the AU and ended up getting himself killed. Trying to leave Lucifer in the AU. Failing at killing most things.

If that were the case though, then Sam should have killed Cain and Zachariah since they did more damage to Dean and were connected more to Dean. TBH the only reason I truly keep score is because I don't understand how some people complain when Sam gets some kills or is involved in some kills. I don't understand it because I see Dean getting a lot of good kills and ones I consider better and more rewarding than ones Sam has got. It's interesting that people see things so differently though. I don't even need the kills to be entirely even, but after season 13 Sam and all his failures, I would like to see Sam get a big kill on a villain from some kind of arc or significance to the overall plot of a season. IMO, he hasn't got that since Lilith.

Very well said. I had actually forgotten about Cain and Zachariah when I was going through the lists of big kills. I knew I was missing some. I also hesitated to add Eve to the list of Dean's big kills, but initially refrained because she was only in a few episodes, but she was more significant in season 6 than say Ramiel and the hellhound Sam killed were in season 12. So you could arguably add her to the list too. I agree with you on the favourites thing. I just don't see it. I don't understand why writers that supposedly don't care about or even like Dean would give him the most and biggest kills of the series. I think of Sam were the ultimate favourite, he would be getting more of the big kills than Dean.

I feel cheated on Sam's emotional scenes period. Yes, he gets hallucinations in terms of Lucifer and he gets to make scared faces when confronting Lucifer, but its a rarity that you get to hear Sam express how he feels. With all the focus on Sam's hell trauma there really isn't much discussion in there. It was only presented in a superficial scratch the surface kind of way. The only thing we know is that Lucifer showed Sam his true face and that was brought up 8 seasons later. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the hallucinations story with Sam. I just don't feel like that type of story truly dealt with Sam's trauma. What he remembers or how it affects him. How he feels about it etc. Generally we don't see those types of scenes with Sam. At this point in the series, I think it is pointless to go back and explore that type of emotional story with Sam. However, I would like to see something explored with Sam's emotional state in season 14. Even if it's the loss of Dean to Michael. I would like to see more than just Sam looking sad. I'd like to see some actual lines discussing his emotional state. I'd like to see the material challenge Jared a little.

TBH, even though I still enjoy Lucifer, I agree that at this point in the series, he should stay dead. Otherwise, it makes the whole finale of season 13 almost pointless. They already spoiled the surprise of Dean being someone else that was heavily speculated to be Michael. IMO, the episode would have played better if we all weren't expecting it. Now if they bring back Lucifer, the episode loses even more of it's good points/significance to the point that it would make the episode almost a waste of time and only a way to set up Michael/Dean instead of an ending to a larger arc as well. With this being said, Even though they keep faking deaths or bringing people back, I do hope Gabriel comes back. Lol. It was so pointless to kill him off after bringing him back IMO.

That happens in nearly every other episode. Someone is almost ready to die and are saved. It's not that it's absolutely insignificant. It's just not as important to the overall story as Azazel. It doesn't make a difference to me what kind of weapon is used. However, you guys now have Michael Dean, so if that was supposed to be an insult to Dean, then I think they would want to keep Dean from being the Michael sword too. I think they were just trying to give Sam more kills because it was usually Dean.

Personally, I think Dean has had more than his share of the big bad/significant kills. For me, it isn't merely about who tortured who. In the grand scheme of things, Lucifer and Azazel were much more significant to the series than Alistair. The YED Sam killed was in one episode and was quite insignificant to the overall plot of season 12 let alone the series. Same with the hell hounds. The impact they have on the story doesn't hold a candle to that of Lucifer, Azazel, death, abaddon or even Dick Roman. The biggest most significant kill Sam has had still remains Lilith and that came with no heroic "You did it!" Moment and was actually viewed as the most horrible thing Sam has done. The other biggest was Alistair (not comparable to Azazel or Lucifer IMO) and that was also seen as a bad thing bc Sam was going dark side and drinking demon blood. That's why I don't think the scales are balanced between Sam and Dean with big kills. IMO Dean has gotten the bigger kills in the series. That's why I can't feel sorry for Dean fans for having to wait 8 years for yet another big kill

But they wouldn't actually have the brothers onscreen together. Sam would be nothing more than an image or dream. In fact, we wouldn't even get to see what Sam is up to really if all the MOTWs were in Dean's head and from his POV. We would only get to see Sam in the Myth Arcs, which I wouldn't be happy with personally. I want to see Sam as himself and explore his character. Not have to constantly see a dream/fake version of him. That's why I think it would be nice for an episode or two, but not the whole season/arc depending on how long it lasts.

That would be neat for an episode or two, but I'm not sure if that would be good for all of the MOTW episodes as it's not actually what's really happening in the real world. I think it would get tiring if they did it too much. Maybe they could swap it out and sometimes it's real and sometimes it's not. Though I guess the audience would know if it was a real hunt or not depending if Dean were involved.

I agree that this could be a problem but they could try something new. Have Cas and Jack become part of the MOTWs with Sam and have the overall Myth arc with MichaelDean be another story during the MOTW episodes. Maybe have the MOTWs connected to DeanMichael somehow. That would upset some of the fans that want the brothers together all the time, but it would satisfy the fans who want Dean to be a part of a long arc/fast forward to only watch Dean. It would definitely be something different for the show. It's not impossible but I don't think they will go this route.

I was talking about in season 12 when Mary called Dean when there was trouble with the BMOL. I wasn't talking about them playing words with friends. It was in the witch twins episode. Mary found trouble in the BMOL headquarters and proceeded to call Dean twice. To me, those are comparable situations as both were in times of danger. One time she called Dean and the other she told Bobby to call Sam. As for the dream sequence, it was Sam's dream. Of course there would be a moment with him and Mary.

I believe Lucifer allowed Sam to be present while beating Dean in Swan Song as he said Sam was there and he was going to feel the snap of his bones. It might not be an issue of Dean being weak so much as how far down Michael is holding him. Lucifer mistakingly let Sam be awake for Swan Song because he believed Sam would never be able to overcome him and he wanted to win Sam's approval for some reason. Michael might not give Dean that chance because he knows Dean will be trying to fight him and he may want to avoid that so he can walk the earth in peace.

Sam got some decent kills in season 12, but other than the alpha vamp, they were merely one episode villains. Yes Ramiel is a YED but he wasn't nearly as significant to the series as someone like Azazel or Lucifer or even Dick Roman. At this point in the series, Sam's biggest kill has been Lilith and that wasn't even seen as a good thing. He wasn't really given a hero moment or anything. Just a Sam screwed up moment. And I do hope that season 14 does give something to Sam in regards to Sam defeating an overarching villain at some point.

At this point we don't really know who or if Lucifer would even be killed and that is if he ends up coming back at all. I don't think it's set in stone that it would go to Sam. They haven't done much with his character lately. TBH I would rather them have Sam accomplish something else at this point. Something new. I would like to see him get a really big win in season 14.

I agree. I would like to see this and Jack as well.

I've been wondering this as well because as far as I am concerned, Dean is welcome to getting hit over the head and knocked out constantly. That's been Sam's schtick this season it seems. Season 13 to me is the Sam in peril season. If that is what the writers do to their apparent favourite, then I I don't want Sam as the favourite.

Good point about the AU but in terms of Lucifer, his plans could have essentially just been pushed back a few years regardless of Sam's sacrifice. Sam's sacrifice in actuality only bought the world a few years. While better than say a year if he returns next year, it still undermines Sam's sacrifice IMO. It still left Lucifer for someone else to finish regardless of the fact that putting Lucifer back in the cage was once Sam's biggest win of the series. It's not much of a win when he gets out IMO.

Lucifer being back in season 11 already made Sam's sacrifice in Swan Song meaningless. Everything they did in season 5 was essentially for nothing at that point. I am not saying I want Lucifer back though I do still enjoy his character. I think this end arc would be good for Lucifer, however this wouldn't be the first time this show has made the characters efforts or sacrifices irrelevant in future episodes.

IMO Mary's call Sam remark this last episode was no different than last season where she only called Dean. Even when Mary was in trouble with the BMOL last season, she only called Dean. She called Dean twice in that instance and couldn't get a hold of him and could only leave messages. Even then, she still didn't think to call Sam. So I am not bothered by her remark to call Sam without adding Dean's name. I figured it was bc of Sam's link to Lucifer that he was the first one she thought of and since the issue was Lucifer she decided to call Sam. It's about time she realised Sam has a phone and she can call him and she doesn't have to wait until Dean refuses to talk to her to do so.