Reganne

I agree. I hated the Gadreel storyline. It was absolutely pitiful and the reason why season 9 is my second least favourite season next to season 8. After that atrocity, I am sincerely glad that Sam is not the one being possessed this time. I would rather they explore Sam's character. So maybe this could be a good thing for both sets of fans, because I think Sam is going to be forced into more of a leadership role in Dean's absence and I am looking forward to seeing that play out. Or at least I hope they do a better job with it than they did in the episode with the vamps. I want to see Sam be successful sometimes, especially coming off of what seems to be the absolute worst season in terms of Sam's hunting skills. I am keeping faith that they will at least give Sam some much needed wins/kills that he severely lacked this season. Also, I am looking forward to Sam bonding even more with other characters. That is one thing they did right in season 13 in regards to Sam's character IMO. They finally had him bond with other characters that they didn't kill off after 2 or 3 episodes. Now he can also bond with Mary since she is back and maybe even AU Bobby.

I don't have a problem with Sam wanting to leaving Lucifer in the rift and I actually still enjoy Lucifer. With all that Lucifer has put Sam through, I think he's justified. I just hate the way they did it and it being like a screw up. To me it doesn't matter what the intention is. It's how it comes across onscreen with how it plays out. I also don't understand why people would be angry with Sam but seem to have no problem with everything Lucifer has done to Sam and Dean and everyone else.

I don't know if the spells are the same or not, but AU Michael would also need something from the other world (Lucifer). Not to mention, by having Michael use Lucifers grace to open the rift, AU Michael will be at full power and not a weakened state. The whole reason Michael hasn't entered their world yet is because he didn't want to use his own grace or so I thought. I mean he could have opened that rift a long time ago if he truly had the list of ingredients and means to do so but he didn't. Now all of a sudden, it's a go because Sam left Lucifer behind.

I don't understand why they can't write Sam as an actual useful character this season instead of the screw up that they are portraying him as. He's suppose to be one of the heros and we are 13 seasons in and he is in his worst form yet. I don't get it. They have him making stupid decisions like forcing Lucifer to stay with AU Michael so that now AU Michael has easy access to their world. It's just stupid. So for the vast majority of the season he has been knocked out or kidnapped or what not and now near the end of it all, they decide not to knock him out only to have him make the biggest mistake ever.

I enjoyed the episode until the last 5 minutes. Killing off Gabriel after just bring him back? It seems pointless to me. And if he's not really dead, then that whole scene was just irrelevant anyway. Then having Sam make the stupid decision to leave Lucifer with Michael. That was just plain dumb. Now Michael has easy access to their world.

I am really disappointed that they had Sam make an incredibly stupid decision to keep Lucifer from entering their world and leave him (the main ingredient for the spell) with Michael so now Michael has an easy means to get into their world. Now it's Sam's fault that Michael has access to their world. I knew it would be that way in some form or another so I shouldn't be surprised. Now Dean is going to be forced to take on this new character because of Sam and his stupid decisions. I just don't get why the writers insist on having Sam make so many dumb mistakes if they want to portray him as a smart character.

TBH, Dean's been leading and pulling most of the weight this season, so I wouldn't mind Sam doing a little something other than getting hit over the head/knocked unconscious. Besides, isn't this episode suppose to be more Sam focused and the last episode focused more on Dean?

This is just a write up on some site. Didn't Mark Shepard once say that Crowley was more drawn to Dean because he was more of a leader?

I think people just interpret things differently. There are many things people say on this board that leave me scratching my head, but alas I guess that's the way they see it. I also think some people see things they want to see, which could be said about all the different parts of the fandom.

Sam asking for Dean to treat him like an equal in hunting and not simply accept being bossed around by Dean (like Dean was doing in that episode) is not a bad thing, especially considering that it was Sam who right about the case in Fallen Idols. Dean refused to listen to Sam. This dynamic doesn't work where only one of the hunters is calling all of the shots and there is no way that dynamic would work. I don't blame Sam for calling Dean out on that. At the end of the day, Dean made the choice to call Sam back and work together. As Sam said, Dean can be as mad at him as he wants, but it shouldn't affect interfere with the hunt. Sam tried to earn Dean's trust by trying to stay off the demon blood and opening up to Dean to say... look I need to step away from hunting. His addiction to demon blood and his relationship with Rubu were the two things that stained their relationship in season 4. Sam held Ruby so Dean could kill her and then stayed away from the demon blood. In fact, in My Bloody Valentine Sam came clean to Dean again and said he was craving demon blood. What do you think Sam should have addressed about changing his behaviour that he wasn't on the road to already doing? As for what made Sam fall for Ruby, yes it was only glossed over, but she saved his life as he told Dean in season 4. Then the demon blood made him feel stronger.

I agree with you here, but for different reasons. I'm tired of Sam being Dean's burden in life. I like the brothers being brothers and I do for the most part like their relationship, but Sam's been the burden since he was 6 months old. Not that he's 35, why don't they let him, I don't know be a decent hunter and not have his existence make Dean's life hell. It's ridiculous. Sam at this point in the series shouldn't be at his worst hunting wise.

Bingo. There are sometimes in the series where Dean doesn't try to understand Sam or what he might be going through as well. In fact, he specifically told Sam not to be mad at him. Like Sam wasn't suppose to feel angry or upset about Dean's decision to die in his place.

Maybe show Sam's feelings after his confrontation with Dean. The focus solely on Dean is why it's obvious they were gong on the poor Dean kick. That whole speech they made Sam do was ridiculous and probably one of the only times I was even mad at the character through my binge watch. It was the perfect opportunity for the narrative to soften the blow on Dean and his mistakes and push the audience to sympathize with him. This IMO, gets the audience to side against Sam because he was mean to poor Dean.

My question for you or anyone really, is what could Sam have done differently at that point in the relationship? Sam was already changing his behaviour from season 4 by not drinking demon blood and following Dean and trying to earn Dean's trust back. I am genuinely curious about this, because we discussed this a few pages back. Because by the time of Fallen Idols, Sam had already started making changes to his behaviour from season 4. What did Sam need to change at that point?

I have to agree with this. The writers should have been focusing on how Sam felt about this situation. Sam should have been allowed to be mad at Dean. Instead, they turned it into a mean Sam and poor Dean situation because Dean always seems to get the POV focus. For once, they could have focused on Sam being upset with Dean. Let Sam have some focus on how he felt about the situation. IMO, the narrative was really quick to turn the tides so the audience could sympathize with Dean because he is the POV character.

I agree. The narrative focused mostly on Dean and his feelings with that last shot because the writers wanted the audience to feel with Dean. Dean gets the POV narrative for the most part through out the series which is one of the reasons most viewers tend to side with him over Sam.

That's weird that the quote says I said that.

So people who go away to university and college don't admire anyone in their families because they left them behind to go to school? Because unless Dean goes with him, then sorry the boys aren't going to be together. Also I would say that Sam follows Dean by hunting period. He has said that he wouldn't hunt without Dean. He told Mary the reason he hunts and left his college life behind because that is where his family is. Yes he got back into it bc of his revenge for Jessica's death but he stayed in the business because of Dean. I think this has been said and shown through our the series.

For the most part Sam does follow Dean. Dean has always been more of the leader. That doesn't mean that Sam isn't ever going to have an opinion on something or disagree with him. Just bc you disagree with someone, that doesn't mean you don't respect or like them. People go to college. They are allowed to live their own lives. That still doesn't mean they don't like or respect them. In fact, Dean should have respected Sam's choice to go to college. Sam believed his family wouldn't care about his achievements in college in the pilot as he said that to Jessica, so obviously no one had congratulated or appreciated the fact that Sam was trying to get an education.

I agree, if Sam didn't respect Dean, I also don't think he would be comfortable in a dynamic where Dean is often the leader amongst the two of them. As Sam has said in the series, he had been looking up to Dean since he was 4. Trying to be like his big brother. He has also thanked Dean on at least two occasions that I can think of for always being there and having his back. That is another way he shows respect IMO.

The wheels on the bus do go round. I guess I just get tired of the constant narrative of Sam is the most awful brother ever that I feel the need to speak up even if my opinion is the unpopular one here. If the wheels go round, then so be it. If there are people here constantly saying negative things about Dean, his fans speak up as well.

I don't think it's a matter of proving the other one worse. It's a matter of showing a different perspective where both characters have flaws. If one character is constantly getting vilified for acting one way, of course fans of that particular character are going to go "Hey wait a minute, the other character did something similar here. Why is that okay?" They're not trying to say their favourite is better, they're trying to show that both characters have behaved in not the best of ways at times. It's a valid question IMO.

Fair enough.

I think that was because Sam wasn't addicted to the demon blood anymore and it was the demon blood that gave him those powers that allowed him to feel that way. That he was strong enough to take on Lilith. Sam's approach in season 5 was much more different for me. Sullen almost, like yeah I'm going to try this. In the scene where they approach Lucifer, you can see the fear in Sam. For me, I always felt that Sam wasn't nearly as confident in season 5 as he was in season 4. He had this plan as his last ditch effort to put things right again. Letting Lucifer out of the cage was the consequences of Sam's addiction and the arrogance he showed in season 4. Putting Lucifer back in the cage and enduring hell with Lucifer in cage was his redemption for me. I guess in your case, you would have rather Sam sit it out and let Dean take care of it so Sam could learn the lesson you think he needed, but for me that would have been Sam (who took the brunt of the blame from other hunters, etc) in season 5 getting Dean his older brother to clean up his mess. Sam needed to set things right.

I understand having favourites. Obviously Sam is my favourite but that doesn't mean I can't see the positives in Dean and admit to Sam making mistakes. I just find a lot of people on this board so one sided. Everything Sam does is wrong or for the wrong reasons and Dean is always in the right. Dean is the perfect sacrificing brother and Sam is painted as the ungrateful, selfish, only does things for himself and now apparently doesn't even like his brother. Honestly if Dean were the perfect character that people make him out to be so that his only flaw is how he would sacrifice himself for his family because he is just that godly of a man, he would be absolutely boring for me and that isn't the Dean Winchester I see.