Reganne

I will never understand this. The whole of season 5 was Sam saying he was at fault. He apologized many times including at the end of Lucifer Rising and in Sympathu for the devil which is another way of admitting he was wrong. He admitted he let Lucifer out which was seen as a mistake and said because of that, he should be the one to put him back. I don't get what more people want. Was Sam suppose to apologize and bring up his mistakes in every episode of the season. I find with a lot of people here, no matter what Sam does it will never be enough for them. Someone brought up Sam judging Dean for things he likes. I was merely pointing out that Dean has done that too and used that example as Dean judging Sam's taste in music which he did. Dean does judge Sam for being nerdy and what he considers lame. They are brothers that have that typical banter but Sam is the only one to get criticized for it.

I don't think Dean tossing Sam's ipod because of what he considered Sam's lame taste in music to be done out of fondness. Same with the "you're always saying pansy things". Even Dean judging Sam for knowing Harry Potter wasn't done in fondness. More "you're lame bro" which is typical with brothers. To me it's no different from Sam giving judging eyes to Dean eating sloppily with his mouth open in the first seasons. It's used for humor and banter among the brothers.

Wasn't it originally Dean who wanted to do the trials alone? Why is it ok for Dean to have the idea that he must be the one to do it alone and not Sam? The only reason Sam ended up doing the trials was because he ended up killing the hellhound and because of that he was the one who needed to complete the rest of them. As far as the cage, I think Sam was more looking for hope. He was willing to believe anything to get it.

It didn't clear it up because to me, with they way you're describing things, it sounds like Dean was blaming Sam and I know that's not your intention. That's why its confusing me. It's just that finding someone at fault for something is the same thing as blaming them. What I was referring to had nothing to do with the kiddie table line or the temper tantrum thing. I understand what you're saying about the temper tantrum even though I don't agree with it being adult behaviour. Yes some adults act like that, but it doesn't make throwing things out of frustration an appropriate adult behaviour IMO. Understandable in the situation, sure but not adult.

I see a lot of this with both brothers. Dean tosses Sam's IPOD out the window after giving him a judging look and hearing what kind of music he listens to in Sympathy to the Devil for example. He makes fun of him for being nerdy and girly. Makes fun of his hair. Tells Sam he's always saying Pansy things. Hitting on Jessica in front of Sam and essentially saying Sam's not good enough for her as he says "You're way out of my brother's league". Giving Sam judgy looks as he talks with Charlie about Harry Potter. I'm sure I could go on. Most of these things I just consider brotherly banter TBH.

Dean Winchester "Maybe the apocalypse has them all hot and bothered. Yeah, well we all know who's fault that is." Sometimes Dean points fingers too.

I have to agree with you on the bolded part. I would love for Sam to have more emotional arcs. I've always felt the writing lacks for emotional stuff when it comes to Sam. I know people think that Jensen is the one who thrives in emotional scenes and I agree that he does. However, I have seen Sacrifice and My Brother's Keeper and I know that Jared can pull it off as well so I never really understand why the writing isn't there for emotional arcs with Sam. IMO, they are always glossed over.

I think the writers just happen to focus on different things for the characters. Dean generally has the other emotional scenes. Sam's emotional state has only been briefly focused on before moving on this season for example. Dean got the grief arc at the beginning of the season and the narrative is now focusing on his frustrations and his depression arc. Sam's was really only glossed over a bit. I do think however, that whatever Dean is gearing up to do, the emotional arc for Dean this season is probably leading into it. I'm going to guess that's why there is more of a focus on Dean's emotional state as opposed to Sam's. As far as hell time, I think they choose to focus more on Sam's right now because Lucifer is still a player on the board where as Alistair is not. I think these emotional moments for the characters are more story based and what fits into the narrative.

I definitely don't see what you do with Sam. Generally, you don't see Sam rushing into a situation and leaving Dean behind because Sam believes him to be the only one who could do something. If Sam had this arrogance and Hubris as his regular self as you claim, I don't think he would be so willing to follow so much in his life and let Dean lead. That's not generally a behaviour you would see for someone with Hubris and arrogance. Even so much as last year, Sam was hesitant to go lead the hunters to the BMOL without Dean. This is how I see it. I think people refer to Dean's flaw as wanting to sacrifice himself for his family and keep his family safe because it's something that can be seen as a positive attribute also. On the other hand, this portrays Dean as someone who would do anything for his family. That narrative also portrays him as selfless and brave and "poor Dean" doesn't care about himself while apparently pointing out a flaw. IMO, I think people are kidding themselves when they claim this is his only flaw as a character. I'm not saying that Dean isn't brave and at times selfless, but I just can't get behind this narrative that some people here hold that everything Sam does is selfish and Dean's only flaw shows just how selfless and sacrificing he is a character. This also conveniently gives the excuse to Dean anytime he runs off and does something on his own like in the last episode. Well he was just doing it to protect his family, that way no one can accuse him of Hubris. After Asylum Sam apologized for the comments about Dean following John's orders. Sam saw the error in his ways of thinking in Something WIcked when he told Dean he now understands why Dean always felt the need to follow Dean's orders. And regardless of what happened with the Penny and Sam brining it up afterwards, my original comment still stands. Sam didn't bring up the Charlie thing or the things Demon Dean said. Nor did the narrative. Why is this ok, but not the Siren incident with Sam? Dean fans are the ones that have the problem with the Siren episode and seem to want it brought up. I would be ok with it all being brought up or not. But why should it be so important for the Siren episode to be brought up again and dealt with but yet you don't seem to care about the Charlie and Demon Dean thing? Is it because it would call out something negative that Dean said to Sam? I say bring it all out then. The Siren thing, the Charlie thing and the Demon Dean thing. I would be ok with that.

You said something about Dean being pissed at his soldiers for failing their mission. To me, that would require blame, so I was wondering. YMMV At this point in the story, Sam was already in the process of making changes. He was showing change through his actions. When Sam disrespected the Hell out of "weak" Dean, he was being controlled by the Siren and really it was only the demon blood that made Sam feel stronger in the first place. Since the demon blood isn't in play anymore, the whole bringing up "weak Dean" would be pointless. If the case is that one brother should apologize for their actions while under a supernatural influence, and it should be brought up again after the fact.... how about they bring up MOC Dean's accusations and Blame towards Sam after Charlie's Death. How about Demon Deans accusations that Sam's existence sucked the life out of his life and got his mother killed? Never were there any peeps made about those after the fact either, but supposedly only Sam should be held accountable for what he says while under the influence of a Siren. Because to do so would be to have to admit that MOC Dean was arrogant and had a whole wack of Hubris to begin with, so it's easier to ignore it for some reason and stick to the narrative that only Sam has acted with arrogance and hubris.

They made it about both their feelings. Both of them are struggling. They have been all season. The last line Sam said about them dying and if they do die, they die together was essentially Sam saying he doesn't want to live without Dean. That he will be by his side no matter what happens to him in the end.

Yes. This is essentially what I was trying to say. It's not about Sam making Dean stand up for him. Its that Sam needs Dean to understand where he coming from if they are to work together. And I think you're right about Dean's current need to protect Sam. It does stem from all of the loses he has struggled with lately. I think that has a lot to do with Dean reverting back a little bit. I don't blame him one bit, but that doesn't mean I don't see Sam's POV as well.

Okay. Maybe I misunderstood. Sorry about that.

Ruby and the demon blood were out of the picture at this point so I think it's obvious that one of the things Sam wanted to change from season 4 was to stay off the demon blood and not get addicted to it again. Sam was already working to get himself in a better place at this point. That's why he initially took a break from hunting. To stay away from the temptation of Demon blood.

Sam never directly said Dean made him do it though where as Dean said they all know it's Sam's fault. And yes, Ruby was a manipulator. It was an illusion of sorts but the demon blood made him feel stronger.

Though I disagree that Sam blamed Dean, I also have to say that Dean also didn't bare the brunt of blame for that second apocalypse like Sam did. Dean didn't have to blame Sam for the MOC because no one really blamed Dean for it in the first place. He didn't need reasons or excuses for the MOC. No one was telling him how he started an apocalypse. No one was attacking him.

I disagree that Sam doesn't have regrets for hurting Dean. The whole of season 10 and Sam's obsession with curing the MOC stemmed from Sam's regret and guilt associated with him not looking for Dean in purgatory. Just bc they had Dean brush it off, that doesn't me the regret wasn't there for Sam. The apology would have been more if it hadn't of been brushed off. The fact that Sam was still even thinking about it seasons later IMO proves that Sam not only had those regrets but carried them with him for years.

Fallen idols leaves me bitter as well but I see it as the exact opposite than you. Lol. Dean and his whole "and we all know who's fault that is." Aka Sam's to Bobby on the phone. Makes me angry everytime I hear it tbh. Lol At least when Sam said the thing about wanting to feel stronger, he didn't outright say it was Dean's fault and even said outright it was his own fault. Sam wanting to be stronger isn't Dean's fault. The way I always saw it was that Sam just had a little brother complex of always feeling inferior to his older sibling who might be better than him at some things and wanting to break away from that shadow. The demon blood made him feel like he was stronger and hence the arrogance came along with that. This was the affect the demon blood had on him IMO. I think that's why I don't see it the same way as some Dean fans.

I don't get your point about Sam getting Dean to stand up for him. Sam needs Dean if he wants to work as a team.

Which to me is not any different than Dean knowing full well that making a demon deal was bad. To me they are quite similar. They both dealt with demons and that lead them both to break seals as far as I am concerned. And the ego thing to me is no different than Dean's ego with the MOC. He thought he knew better and was the only one who could defeat Abaddon and Metatron. Both times making sure Sam was out of the way because he saw himself as the one with the power to destroy them and not Sam or anyone else.

Sam had to learn to be loyal to Dean and try to atone for his mistakes in season 4. There was the whole thing about Sam choosing a demon over Dean which was constantly brought up. He had to earn Dean's trust back. The first few episodes were of Sam trying to apologize to Dean, Bobby etc and make things right. As far as Sam's arrogance in season 4. I agree it was there, but to me it is not really any different than the arrogance Dean showed with the MOC and I don't recall that ever being brought up after the fact either.

Sam had no idea that killing Lilith was breaking the seal either, so I don't really understand the point being made here. Dean knew making a demon deal wasn't a good thing but he did it anyway. Same with Sam and drinking the demon blood.

I don't get this. Sam's essentially asking Dean not to just run off on his own and allowing them to work as a team together to fight in this battle. How is he suppose to do that without asking Dean to be on board with it? Is Sam just suppose to just go on his own on these missions and fight separately from where Dean is?

Good point. He didn't even attempt to deny it or brush it off as nothing.

That's not how I see it. Dean's mistake for breaking the first seal wasn't breaking in hell. It was making the deal with the demon in the first place that landed him in hell to be able to break the first seal in the first place. Moral of that story, don't make deals with demons. As far as blaming in season 5, I don't see it the way you do. Sam even claimed after that that it was his own fault for breaking the last seal. Dean was actually the one who acted surprised that some of the apocalypse could possibly be his fault with the whole "what? It's my fault now?" And blaming Sam for the entire thing and somehow conveniently forgetting how the first seal was broken. Sam claimed the apocalypse was his fault many times however. Even in Swan Song where he said he was the one who let Lucifer out, he should be the one to put him back. If Sam blamed Dean, then why did he say that? Why did Sam say he started the apocalypse in Sam interrupted? If he were blaming Dean, he would have said Dean was the cause of it.