Reganne

I agree. I dont see the Sam love letter thing others seem to see. For example, Sam hasnt really had much in terms of a storyline since season 9. In season 13, he got knocked unconscious so much they actually had to make a joke about it on the show. When they supposedly want to "tell" the audience Sam can be a leader, they half ass it. They really only showed him making mistakes and he never really had a chance to shine prior to getting the entirety of his people killed. His leadership didnt accomplish anything and ended up pointless. The narrative relied heavily on the tell and forgot to show us Sam's abilities which is a lazy way of writing and tells me they couldnt be bothered enough to actually take the time to write something decent.

But that's not all that happened. John said to Sam that if he had of killed the demon when he had the chance, none of this would have happened. When Sam pointed out that it would have killed John, John snapped back and said that Dean would in turn be awake. So yes while a lot of Sam's guilt comes from him fighting with John, that doesnt take away from the fact that John blamed Sam for Dean being in a coma.

I completely agree. Its talked about quite a bit in fandom how John puts the burden on Dean to kill or save Sam. I agree that it would put a great deal of burden on Dean. However it's never really discussed how John asked Sam to kill him and then blamed him for not doing it as well as for the consequences of Dean being in a coma bc Sam couldnt kill John. Not to mention, this was one of the last conversations Sam had with his father before his death. Of course Sam would feel guilty over that.

I purchased it on google play and this has been happening all the time with episodes and I wish I hadnt of bothered spending the money on it. Because I am impatient, we have had to find other ways to watch it on friday night. I didnt have this problem last season though. Season 13 episodes were always released the next day.... give or take maybe one episode.

I agree. I think Sam does need closure with John. One of the last things Sam said to John was "Go to hell!" for one. Then we had Sam say to Dean that he feels guilty over his relationship with his father after he died. Then Sam's feelings regarding John's death were seemingly dropped. The only other time I remember it being brought up was in the Song remains the same where he confessed his feelings to young John which IMO is not really the same thing as actually getting to speak with his father in present day. Especially considering that young John's memory was wiped. In real life, people dont get the opportunity to write their wrongs or guilt regarding deceased loved ones, but I can only guess on how many people wish they could. Not saying Sam was necessarily in the wrong but its apparent he harboured guilt regarding his part in his relationship with his father.

My takeaway is that Sam still blames himself. He said that AU Bobby was right when he criticized Sam in the first place. Sometimes that happens in real life. People get heated over things and whether they are right or wrong about it, they apologize after. I'm not really getting what you're aiming for as this takeaway. I dont take what other characters say as gospel truth. They arent always right.

Dean get compared bc this is the bitch vs jerk thread. The reason why he gets brought into these conversations is bc I dont understand how the Gary Stu would apply to Sam and not Dean. People claim that Sam's mistakes are forgiven. So are Dean's. There are complaints of characters following or still loving Sam. They still do with Dean as well. In fact characters gravitate to Dean more than Sam so I dont get how characters liking Sam makes him a Gary stu. I dont see the writers having this interest in Sam more than other characters TBH.

People are saying that Dean and Mary gave Sam support. TBH that happens even when people make mistakes in real life. That's why I was asking what would be the point in them ripping into him. As far as AU Bobby. He was mad at Sam He only came to once Maggie was safe. Yes he had other things going on, but he was angry with Sam until Maggie was safe and at that point what would be the point in laying it into Sam?

IMO Sam's mistakes have consequences. Dean's quite often dont. And for Sam the consequences are usually grave. Quite often, Dean's mistakes are overlooked as the narrative focuses on Sam's. Take the apacalypse with the release of Lucifer. This was all blamed on Sam. Dean's breaking of the first seal forgotten. Sam releasing the darkness. Dean should have had more consequences to taking the MOC. As it is, the narrative switches to make Sam the culprit of the bigger consequences of the MOC. Dean becomes a demon bc of the MOC, but really he doesnt do much damage. Instead the narrative makes Sam out to be worse than Dean. It's crazy how little consequences Dean actually faces in comparison to Sam. But yet Sam is a Gary Stu? Doesnt make a lot of sense. What would be the point of having them all rip into Sam at that point? That's what I dont understand. I dont take what other characters say as seriously as some others. I look more into what is shown onscreen than what characters say. And what do you think of both Sam and Jack saying that Michael's actions arent Dean's fault?

More characters seem to gravitate towards Dean though. Cas still loves him through all his faults. Crowley followed and preferred him etc. Because I dont see it that way. There are so many ways someone could make him super Sam and they're not. He still needs help etc.

I disagree. As for ep 23. Sam would be dead if it weren't for Dean as well. That's my point with the whole saving people thing. Lucifer would have killed Sam if Dean had not made a deal with Michael. Therefore Dean saved Sam as well. Also you bring up Patience giving Dean the heads up as her saving him, but Dean saved her and was the one who killed the wraith. He did more than Patience did who was tied to a chair. For the most part, I was talking about Sam getting knocked out, down, unconscious etc. I usually say in the last half of season 13 bc that is when it happens the most. That is what I was referring to. He could have done that without having Dean solve and do it all. That really wasnt necessary to showcase Micharl possibly being in Dean. They could have had another character come in after the relevation if they didnt want Dean to be shown as capable. It wouldnt have been that hard. If he were trying to show Dean as weak, there are so many possibilities he could have came up with.

Mary Sue's are perfect characters. Perfect characters dont get addicted to demon blood. Just bc a character gets a compliment, that doesnt make them a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue wouldnt have sent Maggie out on a run by herself and a Mary sue would have solved the djinn case all by themself including saving Maggie. I think the term Mary Sue or in this case it would be Gary Stu is starting to be overused.

TBH I dont keep track of the saving thing, bc every character needs help at times and many times it's two of them working together. Not to mention just as easily as you say Sam saved Dean in episode 23, I would say Dean saved Sam in that very episode. As far as being knocked out/unconscious this is the track record for Sam the last half of season 13. Ep 10 knocked out and tied to a tree (as was Dean) Ep 11 knocked out and tied to table Ep 12 punched out by Dean and knocked out Ep 13 Not knocked out Ep 14 Knocked down by Donatello Ep 15 Knocked out......found by Dean on floor. Dean makes comment about him taking hits to the head lately Ep 16 Not knocked out Ep 17 Tampered with food. Goes unconscious and is dragged away Ep 18 Gets knocked around by demons/asmodeus and does nothing to help himself Ep 19 Gets knocked out by Rowena and kidnapped Ep 20 Nearly choked out but saved by Gabriel Ep 21 Sam dies Ep 22 Not knocked out but I dont remember Sam leading this one. Ep 23 Kidnapped by Lucifer So much for Super Sam

I dont understand. If Dabb wants super Sam, why on earth would he have the character constantly getting knocked out in season 13. What exactly is so super about getting knocked out all the time. This type of speculation doesnt make sense to me. Not to mention, Dean still got the opportunity to figure out the djinn case on his own and also kill him all on his own. Why would someone who wants to show super Sam allow that to happen? Shouldn't he have had Sam do that to showcase just how super he is?

I agree. I saw no redemption for Sam in season 10. The whole season ended with him being the frontrunner in starting another apacalypse. That's not a redemption in the slightest. He gets crapped on for not looking for Dean in purgatory. Then when he does everything in season 10 to save Dean, he gets crapped on for Charlie's death and starting another apacalypse. Honestly for Sam's character, its damned if he does... damned if he doesnt.

I think this quote could be interpreted as what people are reffering to with blaming Jared. Yes I know it says "I'm not saying...." but everything else is almost speculating that it could be happening that way. Maybe that wasnt the intention but that is how it comes across to me. It's the same thing with Dabb. Everything people say about his motivations are mere speculation. As far as the favouring Sam thing. I still dont see it. The series still focuses on more of Dean's emotional point of view etc. They still dont write these types of scenes for Sam. Not to mention, we still dont get to see what kind of things Sam likes. It's always Dean. Whether its Scooby doo or horror movies. It always revolves around Dean's interests. Sure Sam is getting to lead some AU hunters. I like the fact that he is more competent than last season but these AU are nameless. We dont know them. We actually dont see Sam interacting with them all that much. It's not like Dabb is actually putting a lot of effort into it. The AU hunters at this point are quite irrelevant.

IMO, when Dean makes a mistake, the narrative quickly changes to make Sam the wrong doer. Ex after Gadreel giving Sam that speech in the purge to show the audience poor Dean. And with the first seal. Its ignored when Sam breaks the last one. ts almost like they're saying.... but Sam's worse so let's all just overlook what Dean does. Not to mention the lack of consequences when Dean makes mistakes.

Sam has never been shown to be perfect. If he was, they wouldnt have shown Maggie doing a hunt on her own in the first place. Sam himself blamed himself. Its typical that family members want to reassure a loved one whether they are at fault or not. Sometimes they are protective of them. Dean blames himself for Michael but both Jack and Sam have told him It's not his fault. If the narrative wanted to paint Sam as perfect, they wouldnt have had him getting hit over the head and knocked out for the bulk of season 13. Perfect characters dont fail that much. If they wanted to show him to be perfect, they wouldnt have had God blame him for Amara. They wouldnt have had countless hunters blame him for releasing for Lucifer. They wouldnt have had Sam say he was the one that let Lucifer out so he should be the one to put him back in Swan Song. They definitely wouldnt have shown him to be falling for Ruby's manipulation. They wouldn't have shown Sam to be leading a group of people to releasing the darkness. They wouldnt have shown him falling to addiction with the demon blood. They wouldn't have shown him wanting to kill innocent woobie Benny who was said to be a better brother than Sam ever was. They wouldnt have it said that Sam is responsible for Charlie's death. I dont see how all these things equate to a perfect character.

The thing is the show intends the audience to sympathize with Dean. He gets written more emotional scenes to give the audience more of an emotional attachment to him. Sam doesnt get written this types of scenes. While it's true that Dean didnt know anything about the deals, Sam also didnt know he was breaking one. In fact he thought he was preventing them from being broken. It's also funny that is season 5, Dean himself starts to work with a demon aka as Crowley. This however is painted much differently and of course bc its Dean, nothing bad comes of it. Typical of the narrative bc they can only ever show Sam to be wrong.

The thing people forget though is that Dean made a deal with demon that got himself in hell in the first place. While his motives are understandable, that doesnt take away from the fact that he knew it was wrong to deal with the demons. The problem is that the narrative in the series makes people sympathize with Dean more than Sam. They make his part in the apacalypse more understandable in the way but it doesnt change the fact that he also made a mistake that lead to the apacalypse. As far as Metatron, Dean did the same thing while going after Abadon. Making sure Sam was out of the way so he could kill her.

It's hard for me understand that other perspective on this site TBH. This conversation started with Sam blame where I dont see anyone shifting all the blame to Dean here.

As far as hubris, both Dean and Sam have shown this at times. Dean somtimes shows it with the way he speaks with villains IMO. He also showed it when he went after Metatron at the end of season 9 after hitting Sam on the head because he believed himself to be the only one able to kill Metatron.

I agree. I think Sam tends to get the bulk of the blame when there are others characters who sometimes play a part in the mistakes. No one blames Rowena for releasing Lucifer even though that was her plan. Sam didnt even ask Castiel to come to Lucifers cage. He came with Dean, but people blame Sam for letting Lucifer out. Dean broke the first seal.... and if it weren't for that,the last seal couldnt have even been broken by Sam in the first place, but Sam is the one who was blamed for that and Dean breaking the first seal was all forgotten come season 5. As was Castiel letting Sam out of the panic room. Another action that if it didnt happen, Sam wouldnt have been able to break the last seal either. Dont get me wrong, I know Sam makes mistakes. I think him making mistakes make his character more interesting to me. What I dont understand is how he is blamed for everything without acknowledging other characters flaws and mistakes.

For me, I would rather see it. Then you know that effort was actually put forth in an attempt to tell their story. And I do agree that even having a character say something can be interpreted differently anyway.

As far as Sam in season 14, I am glad that they are showing him to be somewhat competent with his hunting this season especially after the last half of season 13 could only show him as a weak and useless hunter. As far as I'm concerned I could take or leave the leader storyline as I'm not that invested in much of the AU hunters. They arent really showing us most of these characters onscreen and they are essentially nameless faces. I just want to see Sam be competent and successful at times which was seriously lacking last season. As far as Dean is concerned, he seems to be very competent still with hunting. He essentially solved and killed the djinn all on his own 2 episodes ago. He also got the more interesting storyline last episode. I can understand the disappointment in the lack of Michael storyline for Dean at the moment, but he is still being shown to be a great hunter. IMO, it is better to show this onscreen than to just have a character say it. I feel the narrative does better and takes more time showing things for Dean as opposed to telling the audience which sometimes happens with Sam.