MaisyDaisy

I actually like that this is a place where people are able to discuss and talk about their opinions- even the whacky ones they are just throwing out for thought. I enjoy reading opinions that are not the usual Olicity mafia official line. Critical thinking tells us to question everything. If I want to feel chastised for questioning the direction the story is heading I will head to tumblr, although I have seen some discord there too as people are sick of being policed.

I am just looking through and was pretty horrified by the details of a fic you are talking about, thinking who the hell is Jules, then I realise it's the second part to a fic I couldn't get into. i love fanfic, I read in several fandoms but one thing I can't stand is the troupe of the man who ubruptly realises the woman he wants was right there in front of him the whole time he was physically occupied with another woman, and hey that's convieniant because now he can just slide woman A out to slot in woman B. That fic did it with Sara and Felicity and I was just like, 'yeah nope'.

I no longer visit the Olicity tag on tumblr due to the rampant passive aggression towards anyone not in the Olicity bubble. All the insinuations that Olicity is actually hot and heavy and on the cusp of reuniting at any given moment- I just lack the cognitive skills to see that. I don't get the frustration at people discussing that Olicity is not 100% likely, or that Tina is a love interest or Nucanary. It might feel repetitive, but the logic is there.

I have never tried as hard to like a character as I did with LL, and unfortunately I was never successful. However there have been many times where they so obviously dropped the ball when writing her that I have been enraged on her behalf. Sara bringing Oliver to Laurels house and eye fucking him over the table comes to mind- just one of the times that Laurel was justified in her anger and that ended in her having to apologise to Sara. I was speechless when that happened. Or when upon hearing that highly trained ninja Sara was killed and their Mother was fine with the barely trained Laurel going after them, ummm you just lost one daughter, shouldn't you want this one safe? I have thought from the end of season 1, that KC must have pissed of someone BTS, because so often it felt like the ball dropping of LL's writing was intentional.

It makes me uncomfortable to be thinking that Felicity needs to see him with another woman to realise that she in fact wants him. Just like it makes me uncomfortable when people say that the ball is in Felicity's court and she needs to be the one that fights for him. I mean Oliver is the one that stuffed up, until we see growth from him, why should she take him back? Not because she is jealous or has a wake up call seeing him with Susan the shady reporter. I mean his new gf seemed like a bit of a bitch at the party and has already screwed Thea over, so how is this growth for Oliver? He seems to still be making stupid decisions with his dick. I have read the meta, but to me there is a hell of a lot of reaching in them.

Yeah that's me. It looks ridiculous when it's gender bent doesn't it? Felicity would be labeled a whore, evil, there would be even more calls for her to be killed off. But anyone critiquing Oliver for his actions gets put down as someone unable to see past a shipping bias. At this point I am sure they would have blamed the outrage at erasing Sara Diggle for a male character on shippers if they could have. I mean it's not rocket science, there is a theme to what is pissing people off, and it about female representation and treatment, so why they are so shocked to be called out on Felicity's tragedy being bogarted for Oliver's man pain- AGAIN, makes me realise how un-self aware they are.

Has anyone else seen the rumors that another spin off in on the cards? I havent seen any real sources yet, so have just taken it with a huge grain of salt (I am so salty over the writing of Felicity this season, so salt is easy to find). But I have been thinking- what if thats why they are sooooo desperate to push WD? The whole "He is so amazing, he is kickarse, the actor is super talented, WD is just like another OQ but cooler" might just be them trying to hype him up, because they need him to work for the new show they have invested in. Perhaps even Tina is coming in, and they will use their formular of having the newbie have a brief romance with a lead (FS perviously, but OQ this time) before launching them off into their new show. Only they have combined it during a time when they decided to write to woo the comic crowd back, and have pretty much eroded the core of what a huge amount of other viewers were tuning in for.

As for LI, I think 100% they will tentively try. Having flirty scenes that are writen for plausable deniability- "Oh, you saw that as romantic? They're just friends......with amazing chemistry" in case it fails and they can claim they were never going there. But while trying the waters they will mention their awesome chemistry and how they 'killed' their scenes together over and over, trying to hype it.

Yep, I think thats where they're going for sure. I think if they were smart, they would take a look around and realise that its not such a great idea. But they seem so unselfaware that I think they think they can throw any hot chick into the role. I think that that is right for a certain group of viewers, but they have totally overestimated the size of those that will like that.

I like the idea of Tina being a Friend of Felicity's, and thats how she is brought in......up until I picture Felicity off on her dark arc while her friend and Oliver get all flirty. Even if they dont go for full on romantic BC/GA, you know there will be flirting. And it just makes me cringe. Friend she brought in and her ex fiance? They would brobably have her comment on how hot Tina is and is fine if her and Oliver want to bang. Now people will say; they're adults, they're single, they can move on, Felicity gives them her blessing. But that doesnt remove the cringe factor for me. That would make me uncomfortable to watch. I wasnt full on likeing Olicity when Isobel happened, I hated it because it made Oliver look like an idiot that thinks with something other then his brain, and a crap friend- because you dont sleep with somebody who is horrible to your friends. Thats about where I am now with Susan. Everybody reaching out to oliver and not Felicity, then him going to soothe himself with Susan has made me really side eye him again. If he did hook up with Felicity's friend (Tina- if that pans out) then I think he will just forever repulse me.

I have seen that award that KC won for her addiction storyline (her best work IMO), but I have never heard of it before she won, or even after. Has anyone heard who has won the next couple of years?

I guess its the academic in me, that I have drummed into my head 'source, source, source'. I am a fact junkie, I mean with the internet at my finger tips is easy to quicky look things up right. So when someone says they have not been watching the source material since season 2 then claim that Felicity has been crap since then, I just ask myself- how do they know that if they are not watching? Kinda like how the comic crew worship Gail Simone and her hate towards Felicity, and here I am looking on confused, because all I see is a woman who admitted that she had never watched the show- only saw a couple of clips on youtube- and thats the 'proof' that she needed. Wow what a feminist icon huh? The cynical part of me thought her perspective might change if she actually had to watch the show. It is exhausting to me how much some in the comic crew think simply stating something thus makes it true. So many times I have seen them provide a source that is from a comic website or the cess pit that became the Arrow Reddit and put it forward as a legit source. Opinion dressed up as fact doesn’t make it magically true. Felicity is not widely hated. Based on what I see via popular media (not fangirl or comic biased sites), social media traffic- even what parents and the woman who work in my local Australian supermarket are saying. As to the stalking- its gross don’t do it. I too hate RL Stemily shipping, however using it to negate points made in a totally unrelated debate is pure passive aggression. If you can throw enough shade then you can negate all her opinions. Sorry it just doesn’t work that way.

This is what she wrote for those who cant find it. (not sure if I needed to edit it differently? Behind a cut or something?) Stephen, I can only imagine the personal ritual you have when you sit down to read through your visitor posts after an episode you know may have left viewers with many questions. At the end of the day, you just want people to enjoy the show. Conversely, you’ve freely admitted that you’re OK with your page becoming a sounding board of discussion (as long as it’s not purposely spiteful, hurtful or an attack on you/family or visitors). You open yourself up as a point of contact for differing perspectives that need a little guidance, knowing that you won’t always have a satisfying answer. So, get some coffee before you read my post, light a candle or something, and know that I truly appreciate that you take the time to even read these concerns, so I feel entirely comfortable when I say WHAT IN THE DANG HELL WAS LAST NIGHT. Just for a moment, put aside the notion that I’m “just a shipper who can’t always get what they want”---but an impassioned and loyal viewer that is beyond confused and disheartened by the show that seems to be a shell of its former self. This is midseason; the point when the path should be paved for viewers to understand where things may be headed. I truly have NO idea where this show is going, which isn’t something I’m used to as a viewer who’s been savvy/observant enough to figure it out without someone holding my hand. Is it really that ridiculous of me to expect some clarity in the direction of the season and then be pissed off because despite assurances, nothing ever seems to pay out? I’ve spent 4 years doing it so far with Arrow and continue to tune in, so it’s not like I’m incapable of seeing the deeper context. That tells me that *my* power of perception hasn’t changed, but the show itself, and unexpectedly so. That freaks me out. It makes me question the previous 4 seasons and no show should ever make their viewer question that. A well rounded, well written story will sell itself. It has layers that gently reveal themselves as the season progresses, giving us glimpses of what’s to come. At this point, I’m pulling these layers off myself and I’m still not seeing any cohesiveness. It’s not just the fiction of the show that creates these layers, the promotional efforts and discussion off air adds to these layers. Normally, everything should meld together, but it just looks like some terrible attempt at a paper mache project I made in third grade. A certain faction of the fandom was CLEARLY misled in what I assume was an attempt to gain more live viewership. You teased, Beth teased, Marc teased, all of which instilled a sense of excitement the Olicity fandom hasn’t felt in very long time. But after last night, I feel genuinely misled. I legitimately feel that what I would normally consider a beautiful scene (the Olicity flashback), was actually a last minute addition. I don’t think there was any intention to have that scene and I feel it was clearly placed to appease us. The only way I would be happy with that flashback is if the show touches back on it in the very near future. “I believe in magic, Felicity.” Okay? And what does that have to do with their current storyline? How does that reflect with the present day situation? It doesn’t, and it lost all the charm it should’ve had. Even Entertainment Weekly commented in their review that it felt as if shippers are being taunted. Also, earlier this season, Felicity said her and Oliver “don’t have that kind of relationship anymore?” Then why did she walk to him like a doting girlfriend to congratulate him after his speech, the same time Susan does? Oh yes; it was written purely to embarrass her character, again. I feel like everything Felicity was in S3 and S4 was completely dumped so certain factions of viewers could have the sugar puff babbling comic relief of Felicity, which is so incredibly disheartening. (By the way, the lack of press from Emily is tangible this year, tweeting more about other shows than her own, and that tells me a lot about her appreciation for her current storyline). I don’t want to be the viewer who doesn’t give things a chance, who takes things too seriously, but story patience walks a thin line with starving interest. To understand the layers, I need to understand that I’m not the general audience. I’m just more aware, more involved because I’m online, watching things unfold behind the scenes (via online promo), cast interactions, cons, and various tid bits. That unfairly casts an expectation upon the show, so I put those things aside, and try to view the show as general audience. I did that last night, and I’ve done that many nights, hoping to see this 10/10, but it went completely over my head. There are some things going over your head too, it seems. A viewer made a nice post, wanting to understand why Oliver went to Susan’s (surely you have enough understanding of your character and the writers sensibility to explain it) –instead of checking in on Felicity; his currently platonic partner and probable love of his life. Instead you answered with, “Oliver didn’t sleep with Susan.” Ok. Great. But, what about the rest of the question? That your answer unintentionally caters to the mentality of certain people that claim all we care about is that Oliver isn’t with Felicity. Frankly I could give two shits if Oliver boinked Susan. That’s life. Oliver’s human, and frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if Felicity does the same soon with someone else (girl deserves a good ol’ boink fest after what she’s been through). What I care about is *when*…..and THAT was the worst possible timing. Oliver was clearly devastated that he had just killed Malone, and Stephen you did a superb job at conveying those emotions. I could clearly see you gave it your all, and I could actually see the physical manifestation of those emotions in the way you carried yourself. What pisses me off is that your hard work in that scene, a feeling that should’ve stuck with me, was immediately overshadowed by the events after. Is this the same Oliver who literally scaled Felicity’s balcony to talk about why she kept Billy a secret from him? NOPE. I think Oliver’s actions would’ve been more understandable had we seen him approach Felicity in the loft, in which (in true Felicity fashion) she tells him she needs to be alone. THEN Oliver going to Susan’s would jive a bit more, especially when he says he “didn’t know where else to go.” Mmmhmm. I can’t help but be reminded of the infamous “OOPS we forgot Roy on the pavement in Season 3,” a point in which the show producer himself admitted was an oversight. Will this be an oversight in a year as well? It BLOWS my mind that two women wrote an episode in which Felicity’s boyfriend is killed, yet everyone comforts Oliver instead. It’s 100% in character for Felicity to say she wants to be alone, but at this point, YOU NEED TO SHOW THIS. We NEED to see this attempt being made by Oliver, because honestly, that’s what he would’ve done if we know Oliver’s character at all (which I HATE that I’m starting to question). Felicity, who I consider 2nd next to GA as I suspect a VAST MAJORITY of viewers do, was the better hero last night; forgiving Oliver more quickly than I would forgive the bagger who put my eggs on top of my bread in the grocery store. My perceived deeper context there is that it’s a testament to the amount of understanding Felicity has for Oliver, and how absolutely gut wrenching it must’ve felt for him to have to tell her he just killed Malone. If this show has any intention of showcasing why Oliver and Felicity truly are endgame, that would’ve been a fantastic opportunity to showcase what makes their journey so special, a worth it. But guess what? ANOTHER nice moment overshadowed by hoopla that doesn’t jive. It’s like a could literally see Felicity’s character fading into the background while she told Oliver it wasn’t his fault (which it wasn’t). The opportunity to reaffirm why Oliver and Felicity make the best of partners was completely missed. What did Oliver think Felicity would burst into flames if he hugged her? JESUS. You’ve said yourself; we don’t care about Oliver’s journey if we can’t care about the relationships. I’m not even looking for the romantic element to be entertained, just the fact that Felicity and Oliver have a partnership that goes beyond anything any other character that ever comes on this show can have or understand. Thea comforted Felicity, and that’s great, but what about the other 5 men standing around them? What is with this mentality? This show excelled at one point of honoring the fact that women on this show can be just as vital to the progression of the overall story and THAT is why I’m upset. This show gave women a voice, a point of view when many other shows weren’t doing that. Of course I see why Oliver needed that comfort, that reassurance, but forgive me for feeling that Felicity’s pain is only there exclusively for Oliver’s manpain, while her opportunity for development is left behind. I half expect 5.10 to come back with Felicity being all chipper and that cutesy sugar puff that apparently the show thinks she’s meant for I’m aware she has some kind of storyline coming up in the back half, but your bosses/writers need to wet/tease the palette of your viewers early on, not just drop it half way through. Now, after 9 episodes in, my assumption is that a female viewers opinion is unwanted by everyone, and the growing perception is that Arrow doesn’t want a primary audience of fans who expect a 4 year long arc of Oliver and Felicity’s relationship to make sense, or independent storylines for Felicity to pay off. I truly do not believe you feel this way about your female viewers in particular, so feel free to prove this perception wrong because that’s why I’m coming to you in the first place. No, you don’t write the show. You get the script, you have some input I’m assuming, and you act. However, you admitted that you “sat down” (in an EW article) with the producers early S4, when you felt some things were getting lost or overshadowed. I totally get that. You want the best for the show that you've committed so much too, but are you really that surprised when people insinuate that perhaps you felt GA’s story wasn’t quite going in the direction you’d hoped? Is this why we’re seeing less and less of Felicity, more newbies, and being told there’s “not time for romance” while Oliver plays tonsil hockey with Susan and Felicity can date a detective that could’ve easily discovered she works for GA? Ok. My intention is not to slight you but it’s a completely legitimate question and if you chose to reveal that information, you had to be aware this may pose some questions which you can choose to answer or not. Overall, yes, I find humor in the show when I’m supposed to, I get thrilled when I’m supposed to, but I still walk away feeling completely at a loss of the meaning of it all. That’s never happened before, and I’m so so sad about it. If you and your costars truly believed the story that your show is trying to sell is working, then why are we being asked at cons our true feelings about the progress of the show with the addition of the newbies, from a star on the show? Can you understand why I’d be even slightly suspicious over that? The way the show has been handled this season by the network, producers and stars has 100% affected my engagement & viewership. I just feel like if someone doesn’t have a mask, their character is limited and questions pertaining to that character are cast aside or categorized as “entitled shipper concerns that don’t matter.” Your writers room made that very clear when they liked a tweet that literally said, “don’t read Olicity comments” last night, or various cast and crew that like tweets that demean a faction of viewers and even its own female lead as if it’s an inconvenience to have them. I don’t think it’s any secret to you that this season is easily causing some of the most heated discussions on your page and Twitter. The awful death threats your cast-mates and bosses received from comic fans last season? Those are not discussions. That is comic entitlement at its finest and I can’t believe I’ve even entertained the idea that the writers/network catered to any of those threats. I make no secret of my dislikes but I equally honor the things that stand out about the show. I truly love this show so much, and it’s a great escape from a crazy life. I have enough outlets to focus on for this show to not be my only resource of entertainment and comfort, but I just feel that the amount of people you think are being entertained this year is actually far less than previous seasons. That’s awful, because I know you work your ass off for this show, as well as your colleagues, but I’m starting to question if the 4 years I spent with this show was actually what I thought it was. It’s like being in a relationship with someone who reveals their true colors when you least expect it. Why has Arrow become my crappy paper mache project from third grade? Can you make sense of these layers for me? I truly believe time is of the essence after last night, if you want to see a good return in viewership and positive engagement after winter hiatus. Please help shed some light without saying “you can’t always get what you want”----because I really REALLY want to see this show return to its former glory. You guys had it, and I’m just not sure why you took it apart. xoxo

Uggh same here. The fact that he kills her BF, so she gets yet another plot line of pain, which of course then becomes his manpain that he must then bury in the convieniently placed LI. Its repulsive. Cant wait to see the ratings for 5B, I know a lot of people still watching but on the fence about returning after the hiatus were using this episode as a deciding factor. I think they just shot themselves in the foot here.

I think that it will be a ratings decrease by degrees. Lots of people hold on to mid season, before deciding if to bail on a show they no longer enjoy. I can see the 0.7 being mixed with 0.6's in the back half of the season, and think we might even get a 0.5 this season. The train wreck that is their PR, the disconnect that a lot of fans are feeling with the characters, but most important is the lack of trust fans now have in the show. When I am told of the focus being on OTA, or a Felicity centric plot line, I quite frankly dont buy it anymore. If they keep going with what they are doing now (plot over character, focus on the new characters and constipated-stuck-in-a-relearning-loop-Oliver) and and we see Felicity sidelined back to comic relief like we have, I think there will be another great exit. They will still get renewed- they are going to squeeze everything they can from it, but quality will go down as their budget does, and SA will no longer be a social media darling to fans, this season will tarnish his popularity.

On the bright side, that fan probably loves season 5's new direction.........

The female to male viewer ratio is now uneven, thats interesting. Perhaps telling on exactly what part of the fandom has stoped watching?

I feel sorry for the legit LL fans, her writing is horrible, they have made her look pathetic over and over, all in the name of Lauriver. I think its the mentality of the writers, that they think that fans of LL will be happy with any Lauriver bone they get tossed. Because the most important thing about a female character is her LI right? Its like when people brought up real issues that they had with the writing of Felicity- issues outside of Olicity, with it never even being mentioned, and the writers dismiss it as just ‘shippers’ (woman) being unhappy, and that if we were getting out romantic plot lines it would all be ok. Its dismissive and rude, because newsflash- we are capable of liking and rooting for female characters outside of a romance. So I do feel sorry for the LL fans that love her as a character, because I see this as her being yet again a tool used badly for some token Lauriver.

I think part of the problem is they are writing outdated troupes. Stuff that might have worked 5-6 years ago (manpain trumping female agency, soap style romantic drama), but now audiences are more connected via the internet, social media is the new back fence and social conscience is shifting, and there is a more vocal comentary for how female characters are treated. 4A got so much praise because it was so refreshing to see a healthy relationship, that didnt overwhelm the rest of the show, or rely on cheap drama. One thing to consider is that with the rise of twitter, tumblr, facebook, fanfiction.net and AO3, its become very easy for shippers to enjoy a full fandom experience without watching the show. When TVD and TO started ratings hemorrhaging (they killed off some of its biggest ships and the writers went full on hate towards fans- telling them not to watch if they dont like it, and promising things that never eventuated) a few of its fandoms have continued to thrive and are massively active- they just stopped watching the show.

I think the only way to fix the ratings is through addressing the writing. However once people have left its very difficult to get them back, and the writers seem to be writing this season towards a certain type of nieche fan, and if they continue, its going to alienate a lot of other viewers. They need to find the balance they had in 4A, but with the attitude and dismissal towards fans pointing out issues, I think they are going to go for the bandaid fix it- throw in a new male gaze comic female character to appease some fans, throw a dash of shipper bait at others so they stay, add promises of OTA that are more hype then delivery and that will be their quick fix.

I think it wasMG? that said he wasnt concerened about ratings, because Arrow was the third highest rated show on the network . But I think its a mistake to compare the show with others that air on the CW. Because while shows like TVD, TO and Reign can fall to 0.5-0.4 and get renewed, they are also significantly cheaper to make. Arrow needs to rate higher to earn a higher advertising rate, so the money it brings in offsets the fact its more expensive than the other show not set in the Florrow verse. Yes I know there are other factors like DVD sales, and selling the show through other viewing platforms, but advertising is still at the top of the list of importance. Hasn’t Arrows social media buzz also taken a hit this season? CW seems to look at things like ratings, internet viewing and social media popularity, BatB got renewed for at least two seasons on internet popularity alone as cited by Mark Pedowitz. So I think a 0.7 in the first half of the season, and a likely several 0.6 in the back half, combined with a slowing social media support has to have the execs talking. Yes I think Arrow for sure will get renewed for more seasons, but with what kind of budget to make the show is the question.

Some fandoms refer to it as 'Twitter Canon'. Its reminding me of the fall of TVD. The EP's/writers dismissed falling ratings as 'sport/holiday/people watching online', then dismissed critique about plot holes, poor representation of female characters as 'entitled shippers'. Then came twitter canon, explaining the show on twitter because the writing on the show was telling not showing. Sounding familiar?