ReadMeLattice

Maybe so. I've certainly personally known some (legal) mentally healthy sex workers during grad school, but I would assume (as you do) that many more are not healthy. Many more people do it than people realize. Since the majority of both men and women have watched porn, and most men in particular do so regularly, though, I think it's a much larger problem than the sex workers themselves. If there was not such a massive demand, people wouldn't do it at all. Maybe the problem is more that our society is addicted to porn. I do hate that the workers get blamed and pitied while the watchers/buyers get to just "fit in" with society and aren't considered "mentally ill" for what THEY do. Maybe it's a systemic problem that feeds on everybody's insecurities. I also wonder about male porn stars and if they aren't shamed as much or if some of them have been abused too. I truly don't know. An interesting question.

This. It's easy to think NOW because of C&T's behavior and comments that they were misled, so a couple of weeks ago I looked back over some of the older episodes. From what we saw, at least, and what they said on camera, they were pretty damn clear about what their role was going to be. I believe they even called it a "semi-open" adoption, which they've retroactively altered to say "open," and clearly indicated that the most would be getting would be the very seldom visit and a yearly call and/or picture. I have sympathy for anyone who made a decision at 17 that stuck with them forever. God knows I was so dumb at that age. But that's generally why (and I say this with zero judgment) teens are discouraged from having children--because they are not prepared to make big choices. They were just underprivileged kids from abusive families, especially in Catelynn's case, and had no guidance and no fathers save for one frequently incarcerated violent asshole, so I certainly have no judgment for the decisions they made or having unprotected sex at 15 or whatever. But now, the show has made them REALLY big for their britches. They have delusions of grandeur and have developed a level of entitlement that has allowed them to justify their rampant disrespect of B&T and their subsequent rewriting of the adoption to claim it was always "open." It wasn't, and they indicated that they knew that at the time. I suspect they still know it, but have been bolstered so much by their "fans" that they can't see straight anymore. Anyone who respects them or cares for them should encourage them to seek intensive counseling to deal with their feelings of resentment and jealousy/regret, and to shut the hell up about B&T.

Yeah, I think both. He definitely socked some away during one of Amber's many druggie downtimes. He's wayyyy too sleazy not to. But Amber also seems like the type to have zero idea of how much money she's supposed to have anyway at any given time.

Fenty is made for every skin color. But I doubt Catelynn will wear any. Def wasted on her!!

This is so inappropriate in EVERY way.

The 9 year old might very well think the picture is cute and funny. SHE'S 9. She doesn't know the stats for how many kids (both boys and girls) are molested or otherwise abused when single parents have revolving doors of partners. The adult is supposed to protect the child!!!

I feel for them as parents of an addict, I'm sure it's hard...but they come across as extremely toxic and coddling to me, and Larry (imo) seems like a total dick who needs to go to anger management very badly. His rage at everyone *except* himself is scary, as is Jen's willingness to blame everyone but Ryan for his own neglectful and abusive behavior.

This is very true. Jeremy going away isn't any different. The industry doesn't matter. It's legal work. And thank you @Rebecca for pointing out Larry's obvious drinking problem. There's a reason Jen is so well practiced as an enabler. Ryan ain't her first enabling rodeo.

This. While I think Dawn probably sucks in a lot of ways, what exactly is she supposed to say? Your dad/former stepdad is a violent felon who went up to her at your wedding and you seem to think that's fine? You won't obey a single rule that's been set for you and you think you're her parents when you're not? She's probably said some version of at least the latter and I'm pretty sure Tyler would not let that one slide without a ton of drama. At this point, it's not anyone's fault but Cate's and Tyler's. Regardless of their initial adoption situation, I truly believe that Brandon and Theresa would be going above and beyond to allow them to see Carly if they had gone off reality TV or given the slightest indication of adhering to the boundaries set for them.

The usual Worsts (Jenelle, Butch, Tyler, Briana, Maci, Debz, etc) were at their worst as usual. The only thing I got from this was that I really don't like pretty much anyone on this show. Chelsea was acting annoying; I can't even stand Randy much at this point; and I used to be cool with Javi and now I don't have any respect for him at all. He's shown his true colors. I don't feel bad for him at all anymore. Jo and Barb are OK, and I don't hate Farrah totally for some reason. Gary and Kristina (especially Kristina) seem nice. Other than that...this is pretty much just a bunch of bottom feeders being bottom feeders.

Definitely agree with all of this. And it would be better for Leah, honestly, if Amber was even more of a deadbeat or just absentee. I've thought this about TM2 Leah to a much lesser extent as well. For Amber, it might be best just to have a supervised visit or two per month, or not to see her daughter at all. For Leah, I think she'd be better and less stressed as an every other weekend parent with the conventional Dad visitation schedule. Our expectation that moms are the default parents protects some kids from fathers who would probably suck anyway or be neglectful, like Devon. But what about when the mom is someone who, for benign or (in Amber's case) extremely not-benign reasons, is better off not parenting day in and day out? I wish it was more socially acceptable for moms in those circumstances to quietly bow out like any dad. Would be better for the kids involved. Amber just should not be a parent. Since she is, it's best to heavily limit Leah's exposure to her and her inevitable train of abusive boyfriends. I know Gary is trying to be accommodating and keep the peace, but I wish something more could be done.

This! The comments they get are mind blowing. I truly had no idea so many people believed such ludicrous things about adoption.

Exactly. Plus I always forget she's 20 because she looks so much older. Even the least popular lifestyle bloggers know that lessons are best framed as something YOU had to learn that you're now passing on (whether it's related to health, family, morals, whatever). "I sometimes have trouble remembering the true meaning of Christmas, but *insert anecdote* reminded me..." Pretending to be unassailably perfect is annoying AF, and only draws attention to your flaws.

I was under the impression that she left and went back.

I got mine at 8. Didn't get them off until 14. I think they're starting them earlier now.

If this is true, I'd have to uncharacteristically defend them as well. I'm dubious about it, though. So in the awful People interview, this stuck out to me: "The older Carly gets, the more it impacts them,” Dawn said. “It’s not just ‘we’ll meet for one day and go to a park.’ For them, it’s the residual effects afterward, the questions that come. What is that impact on Carly?” “The same thing that’s going to impact Nova when she’s older,” Catelynn said. “The same thing we have to do that they’re going to have to do. It’s just part of it. You’re gonna have to do it. So pull up your bootstraps and do it.” Ok. So many things wrong with this. 1. It's not at all the same thing with Nova. Nova is with her birth parents. The only reason she has questions is because you've beaten it into your head that she has a sister she doesn't know. 2. Carly likely has more questions now because yes, she's older and more mature, but she's also old enough to watch TV and have kids at school ask her why her "parents" are always crying about her on television and the internet. She's not 2 anymore and just meeting some random nice adults at the park. Kids her age have iPads and computers even if she doesn't, and they know who Catelynn and Tyler are. You know what would help this confusion? Getting the hell off of TV. Not giving millions of interviews. 3. It's not Brandon and Teresa's responsibility to worry about Nova or her questions. They didn't tell you to place Carly for adoption or to have another biological child later. Carly is their child and their responsibility. Nova is your child and your responsibility. Parenting either of those children is not a team effort between all 4 of you. 4. "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and do it?" (Rephrasing it because I couldn't stand the incorrect use of the phrase.) Really? They know Carly. You really, really don't. They know what's best for her. If you don't like it, the proper response is "thank you for parenting the child we could not, and we hope we see you all again in the future." Demanding that some people who owe you precisely nothing give you access to a child who isn't yours, because you decided to have ANOTHER child, should never even enter your mind, much less cross your lips in a very public interview that they will undoubtedly read. And then Tyler saying he "doesn't care" about Brandon and Teresa? If you don't care about Carly's parents--her family, and the only parents she has ever known-- you don't deserve to see her, douchebag. He then goes on to say that he only wants a relationship with Carly, not them. K well she's a minor and THOSE ARE HER PARENTS. Also, they were allowed a visit this year, correct? Why on Earth are they jeopardizing that possibility in the future by giving ridiculous and offensive tell-all interviews? I can't with these entitled idiots.

Co-signing on all of this. April, Butch and Kim have all had a major hand in making this situation as horrible as it is. And like I said in the other thread, I don't buy that Cate and Tyler in particular were told they'd be having brunch with Carly and B&T on the weekends or something. I don't doubt that Bethany exploits young birth parents, and that's obviously terribly wrong. But they were very clear at the beginning that they knew they would be giving up their parental rights, had no legal claims on Carly, and might not get visits every year. They sounded more lucid then than they do now. And definitely agree that Cate seemed to understand the boundaries more before she was brainwashed by Kim and Tyler to see B&T as child-stealers who should be worshipping the ground Tyler walks on. Instead of Carly's ONLY parents. Which is what they are. Also, I notice that Tyler never says that B&T should be grateful to THEM, just to HIM. Last I checked, Carly was actually *carried* by Catelynn. They don't owe anybody any gratitude, but if I was going to be, I would at least be more grateful to the person who actually carried the baby for 9 months and went into labor than I would be to the very irritating sperm donor. Kim has played a major role in making Tyler the spoiled little ingrate he is today.

Yep. Ovarian cysts could also cause them, and irregular periods are far more common than we usually think. She's also underweight, as you mention. She could very well have PCOS, a lot of people do (and are able to get pregnant...), but I bet she just had rare or irregular periods and self-diagnosed. Just my opinion. I'm torn on the partying while Bentley was young thing. As with many things with Maci, I think her advertisement of it and her extremity are what make it bad. I've had two work trips since my baby was born and I took the opportunity to go out with friends during them and have some cocktails. I used them as breaks. I've also had a lot of family help. I don't feel bad about any of that at all. I think every parent needs a break. However, Maci was living IN A PARTY HOUSE with Bentley. She's always been very immature and striving way too hard to look "cool," and she's definitely not the best role model. However, I would never, ever say she's as bad as Ryan. I don't think binge drinking should be supported, and she acts like a ridiculous self-righteous asshole in many cases, but exactly the same as neglecting your child from birth, then becoming a junkie and leaving rehab early? Not in my opinion. She has made some terrible decisions, but Ryan wasn't even there for Bentley for most of his life. The heroin is just the latest failure.

Yeah, some of the texts I sent to my high school ex at my first college party prove that that's definitely the case...

I could barely get through it because honestly, these two might make me the angriest out of the whole TM universe. I know Bethany is exploitative, but I watched some old episodes recently, and C&T very clearly expressed at the time that they knew Carly was not going to be their daughter anymore. They seemed a lot clearer about what a semi-open adoption meant at the time than they do now. They've regressed. I do believe that Cate was going along with it for Tyler's benefit, and that is on their "parents" (using that term lightly) as well, who offered no guidance at all. Out of the two of them, IMO, Tyler is definitely worse. And no, Tyler, you didn't "give" them the right to be a parent. Lots of people have unprotected sex and unplanned pregnancies. You are not special for doing so.

Tyler thinks he's a lion?!?! Delusions of grandeur. Me too. Given the vices available, food often seems not as bad as many others (not necessarily true). I always gain weight during depressive episodes.

I get it--I hate it too when sexuality is used as scandal or sensationalism--and he could very well be bi, not gay, in which case it wouldn't really be anyone's business, because that wouldn't mean he was essentially faking a relationship. Still...he does make money and garner fans through his perpetuation of the Perfect Hetero Husband/America's Sweetheart thing that his followers lap up, so I can see the argument if he truly is gay (which I'm not convinced of) that he's a huge hypocrite.

Yeah. I mean, I do tend to be more liberal than a lot of others when it comes to what women ingest while pregnant. I've read all the studies and in many other countries, it's considered perfectly normal by ob/gyns for pregnant women to drink limited amounts of wine or beer. In the U.S. we tend to be very all or nothing about stuff. We're really obsessive and judgey about caffeine intake while pregnant, everything from lunch meats to exercise, while looking the other way when pregnant women eat fast food and candy. I didn't personally drink while I was pregnant because that was MY decision, but a lot of our dichotomies (extreme diets vs. extreme obesity, total abstinence vs. binge drinking) make me a little less judgmental of the wide spectrum in between. I say this to say that I'm the *least* judgmental person about what people do while pregnant. But Maci? Girl was not having one beer during a craving or a glass of red wine on a birthday. That was just ridiculous. She was bingeing her face off. Absolutely drowning herself in hard booze. And while she might have a problem, I really think she's just hardcore partying, which is even worse because I doubt she has a chemical dependency or something. She's just selfish and excessive and STILL considers herself superior. To everybody. That's what I don't like about her.

I agree and I cut them some slack for that, but imo the problems there go way back and started way before the heroin.

Yeah, I can't really defend Debra there. I don't agree with spanking and won't do it, but I acknowledge that a swat on a 3-year-old's butt for ignoring your directive not to run into the road is not necessarily abuse. But I don't care if it's your kid and they're the brattiest, worst kid in the world and you think you're entitled to authority over them: Hitting someone, anyone, in the face is abuse and it's a crime. Period. And there were clear bruises. Plus I believe Farrah was over 18 at that point anyway, at which point it's not even a question of child abuse but domestic violence. Also, the police arrived and could have chosen not to arrest Debra. Instead, they took pictures of her bruised face and upped the charges. *They* directed her to put down the knife she was holding and she would not. That tells me she was likely drunk and uncooperative. She said she was "cooking" and that's why she had a knife, but you never bring a knife to the door FOR THE COPS when you're cooking. Like, come on. If you do that you are either very intoxicated/high and/or very aggressive.